John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 13,401 through 13,420 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #351178
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (2besee @ July 20 2013,04:14)
    Hi Gene,
    When Jesus said that there was none good but God I believe that by that statement he was showing us who the true God was. That is humility, and even if WE tried our hardest we should always remember that it is God alone who is truly good.
    So, it was not that Jesus was saying that he himself was not good but that he was a man of sorrows who loved his Father more than anything else, including himself.

    You believe that Jesus was the only sinless man, right up to death?


    2bee

    No,you got it wrong,the fact that God is the only one GOOD,Christ means that it is God that gives all of the time to all good and bad,

    Without discrimination,without bias,without hate but in love and hope,

    Wen a men is good he is good either to himself or others ,we can not give anything to God in a physical way,but we can practice the two commandment that Christ told us in scriptures ,this is the true worship

    #351201
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,16:50)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 20 2013,03:42)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2013,21:47)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2013,06:09)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2013,12:20)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 17 2013,03:18)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2013,20:36)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2013,05:28)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2013,10:54)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2013,05:36)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 14 2013,13:41)
    Mike,

    Demiurge is a personification.


    Personification of WHAT exactly?


    Mike,

    Philo, a Jew, uses demiurge, archangel, and other titles usually associated with a person to speak of logos in his version of the Jewish Divine Word Doctrines.


    What exactly is being personified as “archangel” and “a god”, and “other titles”?


    Mike,

    The logos.


    Kerwin,

    Yeah, but WHAT exactly IS the logos that is personified as an archangel, a god, and other titles?


    Mike,

    The divine Word of God by which he created light and all other things that were created.


    Sorry Kerwin………. I looked, but didn't see your response.

    Okay, so now we've been told it is the logos and the word of God (both are the same exact thing).

    And we've been told it is personified as an archangel, a god, and other titles.

    But you still haven't told me exactly WHAT it is?  Is it an actual word that Jehovah spoke?  Is it a part of Jehovah?  Is it Jehovah Himself?  Is it an entity OTHER THAN Jehovah?

    Tell me WHAT it is please.


    Mike,

    It is not Jehovah or any being.  It is more than just his spoken word which is why Philo personalized it as God's “archangel”, “mediator”, “the firstborn son,” “the archpriest,” “the paraclete(counselor) of humanity.”, and more.


    If you don't even know WHAT it is you're believing in, how can you say your belief aligns with the first 4 chapters of John?

    I want to challenge that claim, because I already know that the Word is Jesus Christ.  But how can I challenge your claim when you won't or can't even tell me WHAT it is I'm challenging?

    If it is not Jehovah Himself, and is called “the firstborn son”, then it sure seems like it is a being other than Jehovah – perhaps a being that Jehovah Himself brought forth into existence.

    But let's focus on the fact that it is NOT Jehovah Himself for a minute.  If that is the case, should John 1:1 say, “the Word was God”?  Or “the Word was a god”?

    Which translation aligns with Philo calling the Word “a god” and “an archangel”?


    Mike,

    It is God's Word.  

    God spoke and his Word created all that is came to be.  
    God speaks and his Word commands the angels.  
    God speaks and his Word allows Satan to oppress Job.  
    God speaks and his Word stops the oppression.
    God speaks and his Word cause the tide to rolls in.
    God speaks and his Word causes the tide to roll out.
    God speaks and his Word condemns a man to the fiery lake.
    God speaks and his Word blesses a man with eternal life.
    God speaks and the Word caries his message to man.
    God speaks and his Word gives Laws.
    God speaks and his Word teaches men and angels.
    God speaks and his Word comforts those in need.
    It goes on and on and on.

    Either the Word was God or was a god will work as the both serve to reveal that the Word is personified as either a god or as a God.  Philo only called the Word an archangel but according to you an archangel is a god.  John just used a doctrine and wording that is similar to Philo's.  Most, and possibly all, literal translations align to a divine Word doctrine similar to Philo's.


    Kerwin,

    Either the Word IS Jehovah Himself, or it/he is something/someone OTHER THAN Jehovah Himself.  Which one please?

    Plus, you recently said, “It is more than just his spoken word”, right?

    Yet all of the examples you just listed imply that it IS in fact Jehovah's spoken word.  You seem to be claiming that Jehovah speaks, and then the words that come out of His mouth take on an “entity” of their own, and go about doing what God told them to do.

    Please answer the bolded question above in a DIRECT manner.

    #351202
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 20 2013,11:56)
    Either the Word was God or was a god will work……….


    NO Kerwin!

    It either IS God Himself, OR it is a god who is NOT God himself.

    Either/or does not work in this case.

    (Thank you for admitting that “a god” is an acceptable translation of John 1:1. :) )

    #351238
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=terraricca,July 20 2013,08:25][/quote]

    Quote
    1Co 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

    Terraricca,

    THE GREATEST IS MERCY

    JESUS DIED  HIS DEATH IN ORDER TO SHOW HIS LOVE!

    SO ONCE HE DIED HIS DEATH, THERE WAS NOTHING TO DO ANYMORE FOR US EXCEPT

    HIS MERCY!

    THIS WAS DEMONSTRATED BY THE OPENING OF HIS HEART WITH THE LANCE!

    IN FACT MOST OF US ALTHOUGH HE DID THE BIGGEST TASK OF LOVE HE COULD DO WHEN HE DIED FOR US, ONLY HIS MERCY WOULD MAKE US HOLY AND THAT WE WOULD RECEIVE AFTER WE DIE, NOT WHILE WE ARE ON EARTH!

    SINCE IT IS A SPIRITUAL ATTRIBUTE!

    NOW  WATER AND BLOOD CAME OUT FROM HIS HEART TO SIMBOLIZE THAT HE RECONCILED ALL SPIRITUAL CREATURES, IN THE WATER AND ALL MATERIAL CREATURES IN THE BLOOD ONTO HIS BODY TO GLORIFY BOTH THE FATHER AND HIMSELF!

    OBVIOUS:

    SPIRITUAL CREATURES ARE THE FATHER'S  IN, AND BY THE WORD ALL IN THE SON'S SPIRIT

    MATERIAL CREATURES ARE THE SON'S  AS THE WORD MADE FLESH ALL IN JESUS CHRIST

    BUT THEN  JESUS CHRIST, GOD IN FLESH FORM, THROUGHOUT, THE FATHER IN THE SON,  UNITED ALL INTO ONE BODY FIRST HE RECONCILED ALL AND DESTROYED ALL ON THE CROSS MATERIAL WISE, AND THEN REASTABLISHED ALL ANEW ON HIS RESURRECTION BOTH CARNAL AND SPIRITUAL .

    THEN THE HOLY SPIRIT, JESUS'SOUL THE SON OF GOD AFTER ACCOMPLISHED HIS  REDEMPTION WORK IN HELL, UNITED WITH THE RESURRECTED JESUS CHRIST BODY THE SON OF MAN

    AND BECAME THE ONLY TRUE GOD IN BOTH FLESH AND SPIRIT FOR ETERNITY!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #351248
    terraricca
    Participant

    charles

    Quote
    OBVIOUS:

    SPIRITUAL CREATURES ARE THE FATHER'S  IN, AND BY THE WORD ALL IN THE SON'S SPIRIT

    MATERIAL CREATURES ARE THE SON'S  AS THE WORD MADE FLESH ALL IN JESUS CHRIST

    BUT THEN  JESUS CHRIST, GOD IN FLESH FORM, THROUGHOUT, THE FATHER IN THE SON,  UNITED ALL INTO ONE BODY FIRST HE RECONCILED ALL AND DESTROYED ALL ON THE CROSS MATERIAL WISE, AND THEN REASTABLISHED ALL ANEW ON HIS RESURRECTION BOTH CARNAL AND SPIRITUAL .

    THEN THE HOLY SPIRIT, JESUS'SOUL THE SON OF GOD AFTER ACCOMPLISHED HIS  REDEMPTION WORK IN HELL, UNITED WITH THE RESURRECTED JESUS CHRIST BODY THE SON OF MAN

    AND BECAME THE ONLY TRUE GOD IN BOTH FLESH AND SPIRIT FOR ETERNITY!

    it seems that you see things and that they are OBVIOUS TO YOU but to me it is confusing, you are mixing LOVE and MERCY yet those two words are not the same ,right ???

    you say ; BUT THEN  JESUS CHRIST, GOD IN FLESH FORM, how can the most powerful being in the universe of creation can be represented in FLESH wen himself his a spirit being ???

    you say; THEN THE HOLY SPIRIT, JESUS'SOUL how could the SPIRIT OF ONE BECOME THE SOUL OF ANOTHER ???

    you say;

    Quote
    UNITED WITH THE RESURRECTED JESUS CHRIST BODY THE SON OF MAN

    AND BECAME THE ONLY TRUE GOD IN BOTH FLESH AND SPIRIT FOR ETERNITY!

    how can two different people (beings) become one and same being ??? where in the scriptures does it say or teach this ???

    #351253
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=terraricca,July 22 2013,01:15][/quote]

    Quote
    how can two different people (beings) become one and same being ???
    where in the scriptures does it say or teach this ???  

    Terraricca,

    Here is a quick post, because all of a sudden, I must leave:

    all the questions you asked are all in this bit of scripture!

    Read:

    Genesis 2:Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be TWO IN ONE FLESH

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #351254
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ July 21 2013,21:32)
    [quote=terraricca,July 22 2013,01:15][/quote]

    Quote
    how can two different people (beings) become one and same being ???
    where in the scriptures does it say or teach this ???  

    Terraricca,

    Here is a quick post, because all of a sudden, I must leave:

    all the questions you asked are all in this bit of scripture!

    Read:

    Genesis 2:Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be TWO IN ONE FLESH

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    charles

    that scripture as nothing to do with Christ and God ;but it is God that institute the first rule of marriage ,for men, I do know that a women should not been seen as a piece of furniture as most men does ,but should be seen as scriptures says;
    Ge 2:20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
    But for Adam no suitable helper was found.

    companion ,in some bible,so again I do not see what you try to stretch up your scripture into ,

    Charles it seems that with your understanding that I have until now seen ,I NOT ONLY NEED A BIBLE , BUT I NEED A EQUAL BOOK BESIDE IT WITH ALL YOUR INTERPRETATIONS ,VERSE BY VERSE,IS THIS THE WAY OF GOD ??? I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT IT IS

    #351255
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (2besee @ July 20 2013,09:14)
    Hi Gene,
    When Jesus said that there was none good but God I believe that by that statement he was showing us who the true God was. That is humility, and even if WE tried our hardest we should always remember that it is God alone who is truly good.
    So, it was not that Jesus was saying that he himself was not good but that he was a man of sorrows who loved his Father more than anything else, including himself.

    You believe that Jesus was the only sinless man, right up to death?


    2besee………yes I do believe Jesus did NO sin. But the question here is was it Jesus' own power, that prevented him from sinning or God's spirit that was “in” him that kept him from sin. If it was Jesus alone then Jesus could have rightly said the he himself was a good man.

    Another point to consider, scripture say God can not be tempted by sin, but Jesus was tempted by sin, so anyone being tempted by sin is volunerable to it. Jesus understood this, and saw this in himself, and therefore said [B] why call me good , there is only “ONE” that is good and, that is “GOD”,it was GOD who kept Jesus from sinning and Jesus well knew it. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours…………………gene

    #351274
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene? 4th post on the previous page?

    Look, I don't really care if you address the post or not. I just get irritated when you butt into a discussion I'm having, but then fail to stand and defend the things you said.

    So I'm asking you to either defend your claims, or don't make them in the first place.

    #351286
    jammin
    Participant

    not yet done?
    why is it so hard for these people to accept the truth?
    God, pls open the ears of these people.
    let them know that your Son is the Word in john 1.1

    #351296
    2besee
    Participant

    Hi T.

    Quote
    A prayer is not a worship act ,it could be ,but not all prayers are ,

    Worship is prayer, when from the heart.

    “And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.” (Revelation)

    “May my prayer be set before you like incense; may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice.” (Psalm)

    #351312
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (2besee @ July 22 2013,11:32)
    Hi T.

    Quote
    A prayer is not a worship act ,it could be ,but not all prayers are ,

    Worship is prayer, when from the heart.

    “And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.” (Revelation)

    “May my prayer be set before you like incense; may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice.” (Psalm)


    2bee

    when I ask from God ,do I worship him ???

    but when I give him glory ,and preach his works and name then I worship him ,

    so the word prayer just mean communicate with your God any god that is ,

    #351315
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=carmel,July 22 2013,02:32][/quote]

    Quote
    =terraricca,July 22 2013,02:54


    Quote
    that scripture as nothing to do with Christ and God ;but it is God that institute the first rule of marriage ,for men

    Terraricca,

    YOU ARE FAR AWAY FROM THE TRUTH!

    THERE’S NOTHING IN SCRIPTURE WHICH IS NOT  A REFERENCE TO BOTH GOD AND CHRIST

    YOU ARE ALWAYS WITH A CONFRONTING IMPULSE!

    THAT SCRIPTURE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MARRIAGE YOU ARE AWARE OF!

    Up to that verse ALL WAS CREATED  VERY GOOD!

    So whatever was  stated in that verse was  a reference to what God ENVISAGED REGARDING THE ACCOMPLISMENT OF HIS KINGDOM, and which was to be commenced  in the following chapter !Adam and his wife were created holy, and were placed in a holy garden  in order to live under the holy rules of  God!

    The garden was called PARADISE FOR PLEASURE and was the appropriate created place  to PROCEED THEIR HOLY LIFE WHICH THEY  WERE CREATED IN, INCLUDING THE ENTIRE ENVIRONMENT.WHICH DEFINITELY HAD NOT YET THE FILTHY, MORTAL ELEMENTS OF FLESH AND BLOOD NEVER MIND CARNAL MARRIAGE!

    BLOOD WAS INTRODUCED IMMEDIATELY THEY SINNED WHICH WAS THE ACTUAL PRESENCE OF SATAN’S SPIRIT WITHIN THEM!

    So God established your kind of  marriage and also their life IN RELATION  TO THE NEW FILTHY, MORTAL LIFE UNDER THE LAW OF DEATH  AND OF   GOOD AND EVIL  

    SO THAT REGARDING THE ERROR OF  THE MARRIAGE YOU ARE REFERING TO!

    SO YOU BETTER REFLECT  TO DISCERN WHAT KIND OF MARRIAGE GOD WAS REFERING TO!

    Quote
    ,I NOT ONLY NEED A BIBLE , BUT I NEED A EQUAL BOOK BESIDE IT WITH ALL YOUR INTERPRETATIONS ,VERSE BY VERSE,IS THIS THE WAY OF GOD ??? I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT IT IS

    NOW REGARDING THAT SCRIPTURE, WITH EVERY RESPECT TO YOUR UNDERSTANDING, YOU DO NOT NEED WHAT YOU STATED ABOVE

    BUT ONLY COMPLETE FAITH,AND  SELF DENIAL IN ORDER TO RECEIVE ALL WHATEVER YOU WANT TO KNOW FROM GOD'S WORDS BUT:

    FOR THE LOVE OF GOD AND JESUS CHRIST AND ALSO YOUR NEIGHBOUR  WHICH I AM PART OF, SINCE WE ARE ALL IN CHRIST AS CHRISTIANS!

    NEVER MIND CONFRONTATION

    HERE IS THE SCRIPTURE AGAIN!

    Genesis 2:Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be TWO IN ONE FLESH

    NOW REFLECT:

    WHO IS THE MAN?   SINCE THERE'S ONLY ONE   PERFECT MAN. ADAM LOST HIS HOLINESS, AND HIS PERFECTION!

    WHO IS THE FATHER?   SINCE THERE'S ONLY ONE PERFECT FATHER

    WHO IS THE MOTHER?  SINCE THERE'S ONLY ONE PERFECT MOTHER CONSIDERING THAT GOD IS NEITHER MASCULINE NOR FEMININE BUT SPIRIT!

    WHO IS THE WIFE?    SINCE THERE'S ONLY ONE PERFECT WIFE IN THE MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB!

    THEREFORE HOW DID THEY BECOME, AND EVENTUALLY BECOME TWO IN ONE FLESH

    WHEN YOU ANSWER IN THE TRUTH THE ABOVE YOU WILL BE IN A POSITION TO DETERMINE  MORE TRUTHS CONCERNING GOD, CHRIST,MAN, AND WOMAN!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #351316
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 22 2013,12:35)
    Gene?  4th post on the previous page?

    Look, I don't really care if you address the post or not.  I just get irritated when you butt into a discussion I'm having, but then fail to stand and defend the things you said.

    So I'm asking you to either defend your claims, or don't make them in the first place.


    Mike, I could care less if you post or not, but the tenth post, not the fourth, on the previous page was addressed to 2besee, in response to what he wrote to me, not you at all, so you need to take your own advice and just butt out, yourself. IMO

    gene

    #351326
    terraricca
    Participant

    charles

    Quote
    THERE’S NOTHING IN SCRIPTURE WHICH IS NOT A REFERENCE TO BOTH GOD AND CHRIST

    this is true ;because is it not that ALL CREATION WAS CREATED THROUGH CHRIST THE ONLY SON OF GOD ??? YES

    SO YES i AGREE

    #351327
    terraricca
    Participant

    CHARLES

    Quote
    Genesis 2:Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be TWO IN ONE FLESH

    AT THAT TIME ADAM WAS PERFECT ,so no need to interpreting what does not need to be ,

    Quote
    WHO IS THE MAN? SINCE THERE'S ONLY ONE PERFECT MAN. ADAM LOST HIS HOLINESS, AND HIS PERFECTION!

    WHO IS THE FATHER? SINCE THERE'S ONLY ONE PERFECT FATHER

    WHO IS THE MOTHER? SINCE THERE'S ONLY ONE PERFECT MOTHER CONSIDERING THAT GOD IS NEITHER MASCULINE NOR FEMININE BUT SPIRIT!

    WHO IS THE WIFE? SINCE THERE'S ONLY ONE PERFECT WIFE IN THE MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB!

    THEREFORE HOW DID THEY BECOME, AND EVENTUALLY BECOME TWO IN ONE FLESH

    this as to be seen in the spirit ,because God is a spirit and so is Christ . and so will be the 144k

    #351328
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 20 2013,23:56)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,16:50)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 20 2013,03:42)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2013,21:47)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2013,06:09)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2013,12:20)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 17 2013,03:18)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2013,20:36)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2013,05:28)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2013,10:54)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2013,05:36)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 14 2013,13:41)
    Mike,

    Demiurge is a personification.


    Personification of WHAT exactly?


    Mike,

    Philo, a Jew, uses demiurge, archangel, and other titles usually associated with a person to speak of logos in his version of the Jewish Divine Word Doctrines.


    What exactly is being personified as “archangel” and “a god”, and “other titles”?


    Mike,

    The logos.


    Kerwin,

    Yeah, but WHAT exactly IS the logos that is personified as an archangel, a god, and other titles?


    Mike,

    The divine Word of God by which he created light and all other things that were created.


    Sorry Kerwin………. I looked, but didn't see your response.

    Okay, so now we've been told it is the logos and the word of God (both are the same exact thing).

    And we've been told it is personified as an archangel, a god, and other titles.

    But you still haven't told me exactly WHAT it is?  Is it an actual word that Jehovah spoke?  Is it a part of Jehovah?  Is it Jehovah Himself?  Is it an entity OTHER THAN Jehovah?

    Tell me WHAT it is please.


    Mike,

    It is not Jehovah or any being.  It is more than just his spoken word which is why Philo personalized it as God's “archangel”, “mediator”, “the firstborn son,” “the archpriest,” “the paraclete(counselor) of humanity.”, and more.


    If you don't even know WHAT it is you're believing in, how can you say your belief aligns with the first 4 chapters of John?

    I want to challenge that claim, because I already know that the Word is Jesus Christ.  But how can I challenge your claim when you won't or can't even tell me WHAT it is I'm challenging?

    If it is not Jehovah Himself, and is called “the firstborn son”, then it sure seems like it is a being other than Jehovah – perhaps a being that Jehovah Himself brought forth into existence.

    But let's focus on the fact that it is NOT Jehovah Himself for a minute.  If that is the case, should John 1:1 say, “the Word was God”?  Or “the Word was a god”?

    Which translation aligns with Philo calling the Word “a god” and “an archangel”?


    Mike,

    It is God's Word.  

    God spoke and his Word created all that is came to be.  
    God speaks and his Word commands the angels.  
    God speaks and his Word allows Satan to oppress Job.  
    God speaks and his Word stops the oppression.
    God speaks and his Word cause the tide to rolls in.
    God speaks and his Word causes the tide to roll out.
    God speaks and his Word condemns a man to the fiery lake.
    God speaks and his Word blesses a man with eternal life.
    God speaks and the Word caries his message to man.
    God speaks and his Word gives Laws.
    God speaks and his Word teaches men and angels.
    God speaks and his Word comforts those in need.
    It goes on and on and on.

    Either the Word was God or was a god will work as the both serve to reveal that the Word is personified as either a god or as a God.  Philo only called the Word an archangel but according to you an archangel is a god.  John just used a doctrine and wording that is similar to Philo's.  Most, and possibly all, literal translations align to a divine Word doctrine similar to Philo's.


    Kerwin,

    Either the Word IS Jehovah Himself, or it/he is something/someone OTHER THAN Jehovah Himself.  Which one please?

    Plus, you recently said, “It is more than just his spoken word”, right?

    Yet all of the examples you just listed imply that it IS in fact Jehovah's spoken word.  You seem to be claiming that Jehovah speaks, and then the words that come out of His mouth take on an “entity” of their own, and go about doing what God told them to do.

    Please answer the bolded question above in a DIRECT manner.


    Mike,

    I stated it is more as I believe that in some way his Wisdom is also his Word and as such anything said about his Wisdom can be said about his Word.  I am somewhat inclined to believe it is his thoughts as well. His Word is full of power.

    I have not fully looked into the topic of God's Word in Scripture.

    #351329
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 21 2013,00:00)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 20 2013,11:56)
    Either the Word was God or was a god will work……….


    NO Kerwin!

    It either IS God Himself, OR it is a god who is NOT God himself.

    Either/or does not work in this case.

    (Thank you for admitting that “a god” is an acceptable translation of John 1:1.  :) )


    Mike,

    The Word is being personified and Jesus even stated that according to the sense in which those that received the Word were called gods he was God. In a similar way the Word can also be called God.

    Jesus is not claiming to be Jehovah nor is the Word Jehovah even if John called it God. It is just a way of communicating ideas about Jesus and the Word.

    #351332
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=terraricca,July 23 2013,07:02][/quote]

    Quote
    AT THAT TIME ADAM WAS PERFECT ,so no need to interpreting what does not need to be ,

    Terraricca,

    YES THAT'S MY POINT!

    SO GOD WAS NOT REFERING TO THE KIND OF MARRIAGE THAT YOU ARE AWARE OF! SINCE IT WAS NOT YET HAPPENED!

    BUT TO THE PERFECT MARRIAGE WHICH ADAM WOULD HAVE ACHIEVED IF HE REMAINED  PERFECT!

    SO SINCE HE NEVER REMAINED PERFECT,

    THE OTHER PERFECT MAN HAD TO DO THE JOB!

    SO GOD IN THAT VERSE IS REFERING TO THE WHOLE PROCESS WHICH THE PERFECT MAN THE WORD, HIS SON, STARTED THE MOMENT HE LEFT HIS FATHER!

    SINCE I STATED THAT GOD ENVISAGED HIS ACCOMPLISHMENT OF HIS KINGDOM NOTWITHSTANDING THE FACT THAT ADAM WAS GOING TO FAIL TO ACHIEVE!  OK?

    SO GOD OBVIOUS KNEW ALL WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN, DEFINITELY! THEREFORE,  ON THE VERY FIRST MOMENT THAT HE SENT HIS SON TO CREATE OUR WORLD, THE SON DID SO ACCORDING TO THE FATHER'S WILL!

    SO THE SON WAS ALL THE TIME WITH THE FATHER,  OFCOURSE!

    the word was with God

    AND AFTER THE REBEL, HE SENT HIM TO PERFECT HIS WORK AND ACCOMPLISH HIS KINGDOM

    SO NOW WE AGREE ON THE FIRST PART OF  THAT VERSE

    HERE IS THE SCRIPTURE AGAIN!

    Genesis 2:Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be TWO IN ONE FLESH

    WHEREFORE, a man THE WORD THE SON'S SPIRIT, shall leave Father ALMIGHTY GOD BEFORE THE WORLD WAS ,TO ACCOMPLISH HIS KINGDOM, AND CREATE OUR MATERIAL WORLD!

    and mother, NOW I LEAVE THIS FOR YOU TO REFLECT AND EXPAND IN ORDER TO DISCOVER THE MOTHER

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    Charles

    #351333
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 22 2013,14:12)
    I am somewhat inclined to believe it is his thoughts as well.


    Kerwin,

    So you believe God's own thoughts became flesh, dwelled on earth, and had the glory of God's only begotten Son?

    It seems to me that you don't quite know exactly what you believe yet.  Let me know when you do.

    Then we can go through the first 4 chapters of John and see if it fits (like you said it did).  But we aren't able to test your understanding against the scriptures until you actually HAVE an understanding to test, right?  So let me know when you know what it is you're even claiming, okay?

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