John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 13,381 through 13,400 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #351129
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,08:56)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2013,04:39)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,00:17)
    2besee,

    Those particular words sound correct but I read the book of Wisdom a decade or so back and believe I found some contradictions with Scripture.

    My point is that since the just live by faith and Jesus is just then he lives by faith.

    T claim that Jesus had knowledge and so did not have faith.  He does not see that it was faith that led Jesus to say “if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”


    k

    Quote
    T claim that Jesus had knowledge and so did not have faith.  He does not see that it was faith that led Jesus to say “if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

    WHAT CHRIST PRAYED FOR WAS NOT IN IGNORANCE AS I CAN UNDERSTAND IT ,A REQUEST IS NOT EQUAL TO FAITH ; AND YOU DID NOT ANSWER THAT QUESTION EITHER ,

    WERE IN SCRIPTURES DOES IT SAYS THAT CHRIST WALKED BY FAITH ???

    THE FACT THAT HE IS A RIGHTEOUS DOES NOT EQUAL FAITH ONLY IF YOU ARE IGNORANT ,IF YOU BELIEVE THIS THEN YOU WOULD ALSO BELIEVE THAT ;THE ARCHITECT THAT BUILT A BUILDING IS ALSO HIS BUILDING ;

    A RIGHTEOUS IS A PERSON THAT WALKS IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF GODS WORDS AND APPLY THEM IN HIS LIFE ,AND HE DOES THAT BY THE BELIEVE THAT HE WILL BE APPROVED BY GOD ,BUT HE DOES NOT KNOW GOD ,ONLY THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES DOES HE KNOW HIM SO HE WALK IN FAITH UNTIL THE DAY THAT GOD WILL REVEL HIMSELF TO HIM THROUGH THAT PERSON RESURRECTION ,UNTIL THEN WE WALK IN FAITH


    T,

    Matthew 8:8-10
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
    9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
    10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

    faith and knowledge are linked as this passage reveals.  It is also the same patern as Jesus' prayers.


    K

    those verses are talking about the centurion faith in Jesus not the faith OF JESUS CHRIST ,the humbleness of the centurion recognize that Christ was a great prophet and so show it by his own words ,by recognizing the power Christ has ,to be able just to say words of healing and it would be done ,because those who perform the miracle for Christ can and will act upon his request to God his father ,miracle are a godly prove that he was who he says he was,THE SON OF GOD ,THE FIRST OF CREATION ,

    so show me that Christ as the same faith as any other men ???

    like I say the architect does not built in faith his building he knows his building ,but the ones of those helping him do not know the building because they can not see the building ,only the part where they work at or in ,

    Quote
    faith and knowledge are linked as this passage reveals.

    yes faith and knowledge are related but not the way you joint them ;

    more faith is required to those that have less knowledge than those who have greater knowledge ,and to the one that has all the knowledge he does not need faith because it as been replaced by that knowledge ;

    1Co 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
    1Co 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

    so NOW we do not have the full knowledge and so as Paul says FAITH,HOPE,AND LOVE DO REMAIN FOR US UNTIL FULL KNOWLEDGE IS ATTAINED,

    #351130
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,09:22)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2013,04:42)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 18 2013,11:12)
    T,

    James 1:6-7
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
    7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

    Do you thing Jesus did not ask in faith?


    k

    YOU ARE MIXING FAITH WITH A SIMPLE REQUEST ,BUT CHRIST KNEW THE ANSWER BEFORE HE ASK ;BUT YOU MIST IT ,THINK


    T,

    He did know that he must suffer and die.

    Jesus asked if God would take the cup from him so he did not know whether God would or not.  

    He did know God had the power to do so and he did know God does all that is right.


    k

    YOU DID NOT THINK TO HARD ,

    LK 22:42 saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.”

    the request is made by Jesus “WILL” BUT HE KNEW THAT HE DID NOT CAME DOWN TO DO HIS OWN PERSONAL WILL BUT “THE WILL OF HIS FATHER “

    #351131
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,10:30)

    Quote (2besee @ July 19 2013,10:27)
    T,
    I don't see what the scriptures that you posted have to do with what I posted.

    Kerwin,
    I believe that the book of wisdom is fine especially considering that the early church had it.
    I find it odd that some things seem to have been hidden.


    2besee,

    Scripture states the woman is hidden in her place.


    2BEE

    Quote
    I believe that the book of wisdom is fine especially considering that the early church had it.

    if the apostles had it where is it say that in the scriptures written by them ???

    to me the early church his the apostles church not the ones that ad run like chicken without an head after 70 AD few were those that stick to the truth of Christ teachings .

    #351132
    terraricca
    Participant

    2bee

    Quote
    T,
    I don't see what the scriptures that you posted have to do with what I posted.

    the truth is in the eye of the beholder

    #351137
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2013,19:24)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,08:56)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2013,04:39)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,00:17)
    2besee,

    Those particular words sound correct but I read the book of Wisdom a decade or so back and believe I found some contradictions with Scripture.

    My point is that since the just live by faith and Jesus is just then he lives by faith.

    T claim that Jesus had knowledge and so did not have faith.  He does not see that it was faith that led Jesus to say “if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”


    k

    Quote
    T claim that Jesus had knowledge and so did not have faith.  He does not see that it was faith that led Jesus to say “if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

    WHAT CHRIST PRAYED FOR WAS NOT IN IGNORANCE AS I CAN UNDERSTAND IT ,A REQUEST IS NOT EQUAL TO FAITH ; AND YOU DID NOT ANSWER THAT QUESTION EITHER ,

    WERE IN SCRIPTURES DOES IT SAYS THAT CHRIST WALKED BY FAITH ???

    THE FACT THAT HE IS A RIGHTEOUS DOES NOT EQUAL FAITH ONLY IF YOU ARE IGNORANT ,IF YOU BELIEVE THIS THEN YOU WOULD ALSO BELIEVE THAT ;THE ARCHITECT THAT BUILT A BUILDING IS ALSO HIS BUILDING ;

    A RIGHTEOUS IS A PERSON THAT WALKS IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF GODS WORDS AND APPLY THEM IN HIS LIFE ,AND HE DOES THAT BY THE BELIEVE THAT HE WILL BE APPROVED BY GOD ,BUT HE DOES NOT KNOW GOD ,ONLY THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES DOES HE KNOW HIM SO HE WALK IN FAITH UNTIL THE DAY THAT GOD WILL REVEL HIMSELF TO HIM THROUGH THAT PERSON RESURRECTION ,UNTIL THEN WE WALK IN FAITH


    T,

    Matthew 8:8-10
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
    9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
    10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

    faith and knowledge are linked as this passage reveals.  It is also the same patern as Jesus' prayers.


    K

    those verses are talking about the centurion faith in Jesus not the faith OF JESUS CHRIST ,the humbleness of the centurion recognize that Christ was a great prophet and so show it by his own words ,by recognizing the power Christ has ,to be able just to say words of healing and it would be done ,because those who perform the miracle for Christ can and will act upon his request to God his father ,miracle are a godly prove that he was who he says he was,THE SON OF GOD ,THE FIRST OF CREATION ,

    so show me that Christ as the same faith as any other men ???

    like I say the architect does not built in faith his building he knows his building ,but the ones of those helping him do not know the building because they can not see the building ,only the part where they work at or in ,

    Quote
    faith and knowledge are linked as this passage reveals.

    yes faith and knowledge are related but not the way you joint them ;

    more faith is required to those that have less knowledge than those who have greater knowledge ,and to the one that has all the knowledge he does not need faith because it as been replaced by that knowledge ;

    1Co 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
    1Co 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

    so NOW we do not have the full knowledge and so as Paul says FAITH,HOPE,AND LOVE DO REMAIN FOR US UNTIL FULL KNOWLEDGE IS ATTAINED,  


    T,

    The Centurion is an example of a man with faith, he acknowledges the authority and power, he acknowledges the choice, he asks for the favor. Jesus did these same things.

    #351138
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2013,19:30)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,09:22)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2013,04:42)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 18 2013,11:12)
    T,

    James 1:6-7
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
    7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

    Do you thing Jesus did not ask in faith?


    k

    YOU ARE MIXING FAITH WITH A SIMPLE REQUEST ,BUT CHRIST KNEW THE ANSWER BEFORE HE ASK ;BUT YOU MIST IT ,THINK


    T,

    He did know that he must suffer and die.

    Jesus asked if God would take the cup from him so he did not know whether God would or not.  

    He did know God had the power to do so and he did know God does all that is right.


    k

    YOU DID NOT THINK TO HARD ,

    LK 22:42 saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.”

    the request is made by Jesus “WILL” BUT HE KNEW THAT HE DID NOT CAME DOWN TO DO HIS OWN PERSONAL WILL BUT “THE WILL OF HIS FATHER “


    T,

    Why did he pray?

    #351139
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    Hebrews 11:1
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    So you claim Jesus had hoped for nothing and saw all things and I believed Jesus petitioned God that his hopes would be fulfilled and it is by faith he saw what was unseen.

    #351145
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,23:36)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2013,19:24)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,08:56)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2013,04:39)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,00:17)
    2besee,

    Those particular words sound correct but I read the book of Wisdom a decade or so back and believe I found some contradictions with Scripture.

    My point is that since the just live by faith and Jesus is just then he lives by faith.

    T claim that Jesus had knowledge and so did not have faith.  He does not see that it was faith that led Jesus to say “if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”


    k

    Quote
    T claim that Jesus had knowledge and so did not have faith.  He does not see that it was faith that led Jesus to say “if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

    WHAT CHRIST PRAYED FOR WAS NOT IN IGNORANCE AS I CAN UNDERSTAND IT ,A REQUEST IS NOT EQUAL TO FAITH ; AND YOU DID NOT ANSWER THAT QUESTION EITHER ,

    WERE IN SCRIPTURES DOES IT SAYS THAT CHRIST WALKED BY FAITH ???

    THE FACT THAT HE IS A RIGHTEOUS DOES NOT EQUAL FAITH ONLY IF YOU ARE IGNORANT ,IF YOU BELIEVE THIS THEN YOU WOULD ALSO BELIEVE THAT ;THE ARCHITECT THAT BUILT A BUILDING IS ALSO HIS BUILDING ;

    A RIGHTEOUS IS A PERSON THAT WALKS IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF GODS WORDS AND APPLY THEM IN HIS LIFE ,AND HE DOES THAT BY THE BELIEVE THAT HE WILL BE APPROVED BY GOD ,BUT HE DOES NOT KNOW GOD ,ONLY THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES DOES HE KNOW HIM SO HE WALK IN FAITH UNTIL THE DAY THAT GOD WILL REVEL HIMSELF TO HIM THROUGH THAT PERSON RESURRECTION ,UNTIL THEN WE WALK IN FAITH


    T,

    Matthew 8:8-10
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
    9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
    10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

    faith and knowledge are linked as this passage reveals.  It is also the same patern as Jesus' prayers.


    K

    those verses are talking about the centurion faith in Jesus not the faith OF JESUS CHRIST ,the humbleness of the centurion recognize that Christ was a great prophet and so show it by his own words ,by recognizing the power Christ has ,to be able just to say words of healing and it would be done ,because those who perform the miracle for Christ can and will act upon his request to God his father ,miracle are a godly prove that he was who he says he was,THE SON OF GOD ,THE FIRST OF CREATION ,

    so show me that Christ as the same faith as any other men ???

    like I say the architect does not built in faith his building he knows his building ,but the ones of those helping him do not know the building because they can not see the building ,only the part where they work at or in ,

    Quote
    faith and knowledge are linked as this passage reveals.

    yes faith and knowledge are related but not the way you joint them ;

    more faith is required to those that have less knowledge than those who have greater knowledge ,and to the one that has all the knowledge he does not need faith because it as been replaced by that knowledge ;

    1Co 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
    1Co 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

    so NOW we do not have the full knowledge and so as Paul says FAITH,HOPE,AND LOVE DO REMAIN FOR US UNTIL FULL KNOWLEDGE IS ATTAINED,  


    T,

    The Centurion is an example of a man with faith,  he acknowledges the authority and power,  he acknowledges the choice, he asks for the favor.  Jesus did these same things.


    K

    Quote
    The Centurion is an example of a man with faith,

    tell me how does it fit with what Paul says;???

    1Co 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
    1Co 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

    #351146
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,23:49)
    T,

    Hebrews 11:1
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    So you claim Jesus had hoped for nothing and saw all things and I believed Jesus petitioned God that his hopes would be fulfilled and it is by faith he saw what was unseen.


    K

    how does that scripture fit with what Paul says in 1 Cor;

    1Co 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
    1Co 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

    WHY IS THEIR”NOW ” ONLY REMAINS “FAITH ” AND “HOPE”

    WE ALL KNOW THAT LOVE WILL REMAIN FOREVER SO LET ONLY TALK ABOUT THE TWO IN QUESTION

    #351147
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,23:37)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2013,19:30)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,09:22)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2013,04:42)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 18 2013,11:12)
    T,

    James 1:6-7
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
    7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

    Do you thing Jesus did not ask in faith?


    k

    YOU ARE MIXING FAITH WITH A SIMPLE REQUEST ,BUT CHRIST KNEW THE ANSWER BEFORE HE ASK ;BUT YOU MIST IT ,THINK


    T,

    He did know that he must suffer and die.

    Jesus asked if God would take the cup from him so he did not know whether God would or not.  

    He did know God had the power to do so and he did know God does all that is right.


    k

    YOU DID NOT THINK TO HARD ,

    LK 22:42 saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.”

    the request is made by Jesus “WILL” BUT HE KNEW THAT HE DID NOT CAME DOWN TO DO HIS OWN PERSONAL WILL BUT “THE WILL OF HIS FATHER “


    T,

    Why did he pray?


    K

    what is a prayer ???

    #351149
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2013,21:47)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2013,06:09)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2013,12:20)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 17 2013,03:18)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2013,20:36)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2013,05:28)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2013,10:54)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2013,05:36)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 14 2013,13:41)
    Mike,

    Demiurge is a personification.


    Personification of WHAT exactly?


    Mike,

    Philo, a Jew, uses demiurge, archangel, and other titles usually associated with a person to speak of logos in his version of the Jewish Divine Word Doctrines.


    What exactly is being personified as “archangel” and “a god”, and “other titles”?


    Mike,

    The logos.


    Kerwin,

    Yeah, but WHAT exactly IS the logos that is personified as an archangel, a god, and other titles?


    Mike,

    The divine Word of God by which he created light and all other things that were created.


    Sorry Kerwin………. I looked, but didn't see your response.

    Okay, so now we've been told it is the logos and the word of God (both are the same exact thing).

    And we've been told it is personified as an archangel, a god, and other titles.

    But you still haven't told me exactly WHAT it is?  Is it an actual word that Jehovah spoke?  Is it a part of Jehovah?  Is it Jehovah Himself?  Is it an entity OTHER THAN Jehovah?

    Tell me WHAT it is please.


    Mike,

    It is not Jehovah or any being.  It is more than just his spoken word which is why Philo personalized it as God's “archangel”, “mediator”, “the firstborn son,” “the archpriest,” “the paraclete(counselor) of humanity.”, and more.


    If you don't even know WHAT it is you're believing in, how can you say your belief aligns with the first 4 chapters of John?

    I want to challenge that claim, because I already know that the Word is Jesus Christ. But how can I challenge your claim when you won't or can't even tell me WHAT it is I'm challenging?

    If it is not Jehovah Himself, and is called “the firstborn son”, then it sure seems like it is a being other than Jehovah – perhaps a being that Jehovah Himself brought forth into existence.

    But let's focus on the fact that it is NOT Jehovah Himself for a minute. If that is the case, should John 1:1 say, “the Word was God”? Or “the Word was a god”?

    Which translation aligns with Philo calling the Word “a god” and “an archangel”?

    #351151
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 18 2013,09:48)
    Mike and Pierre……..I explained this before to you, but your biased filters seem to filter it out, I will restate it again for you.  a Good MECHANIC or “Sheppard”, does not nessarely Make a GOOD “PERSON”.


    Gene,

    Do you REALLY intend to tell us all how you believe your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is NOT a good person – just so you can pretend to “be right” about this subject?   ???

    I sure hope not.  But even if that IS what you are willing to do in order to “win”, I offer you the following:

    Matthew 12:35 KJV
    A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

    So Gene, how do you think Jesus could even TALK ABOUT a “good man”, if he was being LITERAL when he said “God alone is good”?  Is the “man” Jesus was talking about in the verse above really “God Himself”?

    Please explain this to me in simple and direct words (as opposed to your usual technique of posting a novel of personal beliefs and insults instead of an actual answer to the question).

    Also, do you believe that Jehovah is the MOST HIGH god, like the scriptures say?  If so, can you name one of the LESS HIGH gods that Jehovah is higher than?

    Thanks in advance for your clear and direct and honest answers to these questions.

    #351152
    2besee
    Participant

    Hi Gene,
    When Jesus said that there was none good but God I believe that by that statement he was showing us who the true God was. That is humility, and even if WE tried our hardest we should always remember that it is God alone who is truly good.
    So, it was not that Jesus was saying that he himself was not good but that he was a man of sorrows who loved his Father more than anything else, including himself.

    You believe that Jesus was the only sinless man, right up to death?

    #351153
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote
    the apostles had it where is it say that in the scriptures written by them

    T,
    If you are interested do some research on the net!

    #351155
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 20 2013,03:42)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2013,21:47)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2013,06:09)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2013,12:20)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 17 2013,03:18)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2013,20:36)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2013,05:28)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2013,10:54)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2013,05:36)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 14 2013,13:41)
    Mike,

    Demiurge is a personification.


    Personification of WHAT exactly?


    Mike,

    Philo, a Jew, uses demiurge, archangel, and other titles usually associated with a person to speak of logos in his version of the Jewish Divine Word Doctrines.


    What exactly is being personified as “archangel” and “a god”, and “other titles”?


    Mike,

    The logos.


    Kerwin,

    Yeah, but WHAT exactly IS the logos that is personified as an archangel, a god, and other titles?


    Mike,

    The divine Word of God by which he created light and all other things that were created.


    Sorry Kerwin………. I looked, but didn't see your response.

    Okay, so now we've been told it is the logos and the word of God (both are the same exact thing).

    And we've been told it is personified as an archangel, a god, and other titles.

    But you still haven't told me exactly WHAT it is?  Is it an actual word that Jehovah spoke?  Is it a part of Jehovah?  Is it Jehovah Himself?  Is it an entity OTHER THAN Jehovah?

    Tell me WHAT it is please.


    Mike,

    It is not Jehovah or any being.  It is more than just his spoken word which is why Philo personalized it as God's “archangel”, “mediator”, “the firstborn son,” “the archpriest,” “the paraclete(counselor) of humanity.”, and more.


    If you don't even know WHAT it is you're believing in, how can you say your belief aligns with the first 4 chapters of John?

    I want to challenge that claim, because I already know that the Word is Jesus Christ.  But how can I challenge your claim when you won't or can't even tell me WHAT it is I'm challenging?

    If it is not Jehovah Himself, and is called “the firstborn son”, then it sure seems like it is a being other than Jehovah – perhaps a being that Jehovah Himself brought forth into existence.

    But let's focus on the fact that it is NOT Jehovah Himself for a minute.  If that is the case, should John 1:1 say, “the Word was God”?  Or “the Word was a god”?

    Which translation aligns with Philo calling the Word “a god” and “an archangel”?


    Mike,

    It is God's Word.  

    God spoke and his Word created all that is came to be.  
    God speaks and his Word commands the angels.  
    God speaks and his Word allows Satan to oppress Job.  
    God speaks and his Word stops the oppression.
    God speaks and his Word cause the tide to rolls in.
    God speaks and his Word causes the tide to roll out.
    God speaks and his Word condemns a man to the fiery lake.
    God speaks and his Word blesses a man with eternal life.
    God speaks and the Word caries his message to man.
    God speaks and his Word gives Laws.
    God speaks and his Word teaches men and angels.
    God speaks and his Word comforts those in need.
    It goes on and on and on.

    Either the Word was God or was a god will work as the both serve to reveal that the Word is personified as either a god or as a God.  Philo only called the Word an archangel but according to you an archangel is a god.  John just used a doctrine and wording that is similar to Philo's.  Most, and possibly all, literal translations align to a divine Word doctrine similar to Philo's.

    #351156
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 20 2013,03:28)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,23:37)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2013,19:30)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,09:22)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2013,04:42)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 18 2013,11:12)
    T,

    James 1:6-7
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
    7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

    Do you thing Jesus did not ask in faith?


    k

    YOU ARE MIXING FAITH WITH A SIMPLE REQUEST ,BUT CHRIST KNEW THE ANSWER BEFORE HE ASK ;BUT YOU MIST IT ,THINK


    T,

    He did know that he must suffer and die.

    Jesus asked if God would take the cup from him so he did not know whether God would or not.  

    He did know God had the power to do so and he did know God does all that is right.


    k

    YOU DID NOT THINK TO HARD ,

    LK 22:42 saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.”

    the request is made by Jesus “WILL” BUT HE KNEW THAT HE DID NOT CAME DOWN TO DO HIS OWN PERSONAL WILL BUT “THE WILL OF HIS FATHER “


    T,

    Why did he pray?


    K

    what is a prayer ???


    T,

    It is asking God for something or some other communication.

    #351157
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 20 2013,03:25)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,23:49)
    T,

    Hebrews 11:1
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    So you claim Jesus had hoped for nothing and saw all things and I believed Jesus petitioned God that his hopes would be fulfilled and it is by faith he saw what was unseen.


    K

    how does that scripture fit with what Paul says in 1 Cor;

    1Co 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
    1Co 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

    WHY IS THEIR”NOW ”  ONLY REMAINS “FAITH ” AND “HOPE”

    WE ALL KNOW THAT LOVE WILL REMAIN FOREVER SO LET ONLY TALK ABOUT THE TWO IN QUESTION


    T,

    We will never be all knowing.
    Jesus was not all knowing.
    Jesus faith was beyond strong and so he understood Scripture. Even though he understood Scripture he asked God if there was another way. Even though he knew Scripture he asked God if believers could be one as he and God are one.

    He told his disciples have courage I have overcome the world. We are to follow in his footsteps having faith as he had faith and overcame the world.

    #351158
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 20 2013,03:22)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,23:36)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2013,19:24)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,08:56)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2013,04:39)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,00:17)
    2besee,

    Those particular words sound correct but I read the book of Wisdom a decade or so back and believe I found some contradictions with Scripture.

    My point is that since the just live by faith and Jesus is just then he lives by faith.

    T claim that Jesus had knowledge and so did not have faith.  He does not see that it was faith that led Jesus to say “if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”


    k

    Quote
    T claim that Jesus had knowledge and so did not have faith.  He does not see that it was faith that led Jesus to say “if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

    WHAT CHRIST PRAYED FOR WAS NOT IN IGNORANCE AS I CAN UNDERSTAND IT ,A REQUEST IS NOT EQUAL TO FAITH ; AND YOU DID NOT ANSWER THAT QUESTION EITHER ,

    WERE IN SCRIPTURES DOES IT SAYS THAT CHRIST WALKED BY FAITH ???

    THE FACT THAT HE IS A RIGHTEOUS DOES NOT EQUAL FAITH ONLY IF YOU ARE IGNORANT ,IF YOU BELIEVE THIS THEN YOU WOULD ALSO BELIEVE THAT ;THE ARCHITECT THAT BUILT A BUILDING IS ALSO HIS BUILDING ;

    A RIGHTEOUS IS A PERSON THAT WALKS IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF GODS WORDS AND APPLY THEM IN HIS LIFE ,AND HE DOES THAT BY THE BELIEVE THAT HE WILL BE APPROVED BY GOD ,BUT HE DOES NOT KNOW GOD ,ONLY THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES DOES HE KNOW HIM SO HE WALK IN FAITH UNTIL THE DAY THAT GOD WILL REVEL HIMSELF TO HIM THROUGH THAT PERSON RESURRECTION ,UNTIL THEN WE WALK IN FAITH


    T,

    Matthew 8:8-10
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
    9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
    10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

    faith and knowledge are linked as this passage reveals.  It is also the same patern as Jesus' prayers.


    K

    those verses are talking about the centurion faith in Jesus not the faith OF JESUS CHRIST ,the humbleness of the centurion recognize that Christ was a great prophet and so show it by his own words ,by recognizing the power Christ has ,to be able just to say words of healing and it would be done ,because those who perform the miracle for Christ can and will act upon his request to God his father ,miracle are a godly prove that he was who he says he was,THE SON OF GOD ,THE FIRST OF CREATION ,

    so show me that Christ as the same faith as any other men ???

    like I say the architect does not built in faith his building he knows his building ,but the ones of those helping him do not know the building because they can not see the building ,only the part where they work at or in ,

    Quote
    faith and knowledge are linked as this passage reveals.

    yes faith and knowledge are related but not the way you joint them ;

    more faith is required to those that have less knowledge than those who have greater knowledge ,and to the one that has all the knowledge he does not need faith because it as been replaced by that knowledge ;

    1Co 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
    1Co 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

    so NOW we do not have the full knowledge and so as Paul says FAITH,HOPE,AND LOVE DO REMAIN FOR US UNTIL FULL KNOWLEDGE IS ATTAINED,  


    T,

    The Centurion is an example of a man with faith,  he acknowledges the authority and power,  he acknowledges the choice, he asks for the favor.  Jesus did these same things.


    K

    Quote
    The Centurion is an example of a man with faith,

    tell me how does it fit with what Paul says;???

    1Co 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
    1Co 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


    T,

    Paul is speaking of prophecy and knowledge, not faith.

    #351159
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote
    what is a prayer

    Terraricca,
    Prayer is worship, as is reading scripture. Apparently, these two things are what sums up 'worship' according to the Jews.

    http://followtherabbi.com/guide/detail/he-went-to-synagogue

    The above are some interesting facts.

    #351177
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (2besee @ July 20 2013,05:08)

    Quote
    what is a prayer

    Terraricca,
    Prayer is worship, as is reading scripture. Apparently, these two things are what sums up 'worship' according to the Jews.

    http://followtherabbi.com/guide/detail/he-went-to-synagogue

    The above are some interesting facts.


    True worship is obey the first commandment of God and the other one is the second one that Christ quoted,

    A prayer is a communication with God your creator and our father,it can be done any time and anywhere,but it as to be sinserly done,

    A prayer is not a worship act ,it could be ,but not all prayers are ,

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