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John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • June 24, 2013 at 6:42 pm#348587
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,04:36)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 21 2013,23:55)
    Hebrews 5:7
    who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications…..


    To all those who believe Jesus is STILL a human being in heaven:  What does the writer of Hebrews mean by “in the days of his flesh”?

    According to you guys, Jesus continues to be “in the days of his flesh”, right?  So what do those words mean to you?


    Hi Mike,

    The author would be referring to the “days” of his weak flesh!

    Scripture, particularly those writings of Paul, use “flesh” to refer to a carnal human mind set.  

    1 Corinthians 15: 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

    Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[/u] 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.

    What is the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body? Of course it would be easy to say that one is a body that can sin and one is a body that cannot. Either way there is still a body involved. Acts and Luke make it clear that when Jesus was raised from the dead, his spiritual body was one made of flesh!

    What caused Jesus to inherit the kingdom of God?… was it through his flesh, was it through man?..of course not, flesh and blood cannot bring you into immortality, we must have no faith in our corruptible flesh!

    Matthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

    John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

    Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

    Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

    Paul refers to “the flesh” as a state of mind that man is in due to the fact that our flesh is weak. Our natural/carnal body fears death, it has a beast of a spirit with instincts to survive. We serve this fear, it is a natural instinct within our body.

    Our flesh and blood does not cause us to inherit the kingdom

    Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

    Romans 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    Being “in the flesh” in this context represent a state of mind, not the literal flesh.

    Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

    2 Corinthains 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

    Paul has repeatedly told us what “the flesh” is referring to, our weak flesh that brings us temptation.
     
    The mind of Jesus was perfected by the things he suffered, even though he had a body that drew him into temptation and sin, he never served his natural body, he stayed true to serving God. This gave him the glory of receiving a fleshly body that could never die. When you have a body that cannot die, death no longer has dominion over you, tempting you to sin. Jesus dwells in a perfected mind and body!

    My understanding is that Jesus received the same flesh that Adam and Eve began with!

    After Adam and Eve sinned their flesh was made mortal. All of creation was put under a spiritual curse, fearing death and serving the body in order to survive. Adam and Eve were created with a spiritual body, but in their ignorance they were far from having a spiritual mind. With a mortal body man’s obedience and his journey to righteousness could be established through suffering combined with knowledge from the Holy Spirit. The mind of Jesus was perfected in his weak flesh, making him worthy of receiving immortal flesh.  Jesus is a new creation, a human fleshly being that cannot die full of the knowledge of the Lord!  

    Isaiah 11:1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. 2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord. 3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears; 4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist. 6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea.

    Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption
    , the redemption of our body.

    June 24, 2013 at 7:10 pm#348588
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,00:42)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,04:36)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 21 2013,23:55)
    Hebrews 5:7
    who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications…..


    To all those who believe Jesus is STILL a human being in heaven:  What does the writer of Hebrews mean by “in the days of his flesh”?

    According to you guys, Jesus continues to be “in the days of his flesh”, right?  So what do those words mean to you?


    Hi Mike,

    The author would be referring to the “days” of his weak flesh!

    Scripture, particularly those writings of Paul, use “flesh” to refer to a carnal human mind set.  

    1 Corinthians 15: 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

    Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[/u] 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.

    What is the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body? Of course it would be easy to say that one is a body that can sin and one is a body that cannot. Either way there is still a body involved. Acts and Luke make it clear that when Jesus was raised from the dead, his spiritual body was one made of flesh!

    What caused Jesus to inherit the kingdom of God?… was it through his flesh, was it through man?..of course not, flesh and blood cannot bring you into immortality, we must have no faith in our corruptible flesh!

    Matthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

    John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

    Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

    Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

    Paul refers to “the flesh” as a state of mind that man is in due to the fact that our flesh is weak. Our natural/carnal body fears death, it has a beast of a spirit with instincts to survive. We serve this fear, it is a natural instinct within our body.

    Our flesh and blood does not cause us to inherit the kingdom

    Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

    Romans 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    Being “in the flesh” in this context represent a state of mind, not the literal flesh.

    Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

    2 Corinthains 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

    Paul has repeatedly told us what “the flesh” is referring to, our weak flesh that brings us temptation.
     
    The mind of Jesus was perfected by the things he suffered, even though he had a body that drew him into temptation and sin, he never served his natural body, he stayed true to serving God. This gave him the glory of receiving a fleshly body that could never die. When you have a body that cannot die, death no longer has dominion over you, tempting you to sin. Jesus dwells in a perfected mind and body!

    My understanding is that Jesus received the same flesh that Adam and Eve began with!

    After Adam and Eve sinned their flesh was made mortal. All of creation was put under a spiritual curse, fearing death and serving the body in order to survive. Adam and Eve were created with a spiritual body, but in their ignorance they were far from having a spiritual mind. With a mortal body man’s obedience and his journey to righteousness could be established through suffering combined with knowledge from the Holy Spirit. The mind of Jesus was perfected in his weak flesh, making him worthy of receiving immortal flesh.  Jesus is a new creation, a human fleshly being that cannot die full of the knowledge of the Lord!  

    Isaiah 11:1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. 2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord. 3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears; 4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist. 6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea.

    Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that
    the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.


    Jody

    Quote
    Scripture, particularly those writings of Paul, use “flesh” to refer to a carnal human mind set.

    in Hebrew 5;7

    it specifically is related to Christ ;so all your other scriptures that are specific to man are not the same intend

    in 5;7 Paul talks about an specific time about Jesus AND THAT IS WEN HE WAS UNDER THE COVER OF FLESH ,AND THAT TIME ONLY ,

    Christ in heaven before and after he was in the flesh ,this is why Paul is so specific about the time IN THE FLESH,

    June 24, 2013 at 9:31 pm#348596
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,05:42)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,04:36)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 21 2013,23:55)
    Hebrews 5:7
    who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications…..


    To all those who believe Jesus is STILL a human being in heaven:  What does the writer of Hebrews mean by “in the days of his flesh”?

    According to you guys, Jesus continues to be “in the days of his flesh”, right?  So what do those words mean to you?


    Hi Mike,

    The author would be referring to the “days” of his weak flesh!

    Scripture, particularly those writings of Paul, use “flesh” to refer to a carnal human mind set.  

    1 Corinthians 15: 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

    Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[/u] 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.

    What is the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body? Of course it would be easy to say that one is a body that can sin and one is a body that cannot. Either way there is still a body involved. Acts and Luke make it clear that when Jesus was raised from the dead, his spiritual body was one made of flesh!

    What caused Jesus to inherit the kingdom of God?… was it through his flesh, was it through man?..of course not, flesh and blood cannot bring you into immortality, we must have no faith in our corruptible flesh!

    Matthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

    John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

    Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

    Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

    Paul refers to “the flesh” as a state of mind that man is in due to the fact that our flesh is weak. Our natural/carnal body fears death, it has a beast of a spirit with instincts to survive. We serve this fear, it is a natural instinct within our body.

    Our flesh and blood does not cause us to inherit the kingdom

    Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

    Romans 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    Being “in the flesh” in this context represent a state of mind, not the literal flesh.

    Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

    2 Corinthains 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

    Paul has repeatedly told us what “the flesh” is referring to, our weak flesh that brings us temptation.
     
    The mind of Jesus was perfected by the things he suffered, even though he had a body that drew him into temptation and sin, he never served his natural body, he stayed true to serving God. This gave him the glory of receiving a fleshly body that could never die. When you have a body that cannot die, death no longer has dominion over you, tempting you to sin. Jesus dwells in a perfected mind and body!

    My understanding is that Jesus received the same flesh that Adam and Eve began with!

    After Adam and Eve sinned their flesh was made mortal. All of creation was put under a spiritual curse, fearing death and serving the body in order to survive. Adam and Eve were created with a spiritual body, but in their ignorance they were far from having a spiritual mind. With a mortal body man’s obedience and his journey to righteousness could be established through suffering combined with knowledge from the Holy Spirit. The mind of Jesus was perfected in his weak flesh, making him worthy of receiving immortal flesh.  Jesus is a new creation, a human fleshly being that cannot die full of the knowledge of the Lord!  

    Isaiah 11:1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. 2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord. 3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears; 4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist. 6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea.

    Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that
    the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.


    Jodi…….Another right on and a excellent post Sis. You nailed it, lets see if Mike and his co-hart Pierre can even begin to understand it.

    Peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene

    June 24, 2013 at 11:08 pm#348615
    2besee
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Quote
    Corinthians 15 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

    25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

    26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

    27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    Do you agree that this passage is about JESUS CHRIST destroying all the enemies that his God placed under his feet?

    Yes. Destroying or bringing under him.

    Quote
    If you do, then you'll also be able to see that it is JESUS CHRIST who does battle against the beast and the kings of the earth….. not the Holy Spirit, nor the “spirit of Christ”.

    Yes I agree. There is a difference in Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of Christ or the Spirit of the Son.
    One is here now and the other is still to come.

    Quote
    Read Acts 4:25-6/Psalm 2:1-2 for confirmation of who exactly the kings of the earth gather against. Then compare those verses against Revelation 19:19.

    Rev 19:19 the end of the world  the return of Christ Jesus – it is still to come.

    Your opinion?

    June 24, 2013 at 11:37 pm#348619
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ June 23 2013,20:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,13:00)

    Quote (Ed J @ June 23 2013,16:28)

    “he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood”   …means…

    “their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments” (Isa 63:3)


    That could be, Ed.  It seems the commentators agree with that thought.

    But isn't this rider in Rev 19 already wearing a robe dipped in blood BEFORE the battle even begins?  How could it be THEIR blood before the battle has even started?


    Hi Mike,

    I like when you attempt to use commentators to prove
    your belief – then totally discard them when you disagree.  :)

    Does that not PROVE that their commentaries MEAN NOTHING?         (<– please answer)
                   


    No Ed,

    It means that sometimes even expert commentators miss things. Sometimes they are led by personal desires, such as the desire for Jesus to be the very God he is the Son of. So sometimes, for various reasons, they are wrong.

    Most of them have read the scriptures backwards and forwards for years, in English, Greek, and Hebrew. They have a lot of helpful knowledge. But they are just men. And like us, they are prone to mistakes on occasion.

    Now, would you address MY point that DIDN'T come from any commentator?

    How could it be THEIR blood before the battle even began?

    June 24, 2013 at 11:55 pm#348622
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 24 2013,05:37)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,07:52)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 23 2013,14:42)
    Mike,

    I still say “the Word made flesh” when speaking of the Word that was made flesh after it was made.


    Okay.   We're getting nearer to clearer now.  So you are saying that AFTER the Word WAS MADE flesh, it is okay to refer to him as “The Word-Made-Flesh”.  I can get on board with that.

    But before he could ever be called “The Word-Made-Flesh”, he first had to BE MADE flesh.  

    So who exactly was with God in the beginning, before he WAS MADE flesh and dwelt on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son?


    Mike,

    1  Before the Word was made flesh it was not the Word made flesh.

    2  It was the Word that was with the god and was god in the beginning.  

    3  It was the Word by which all things were made.  It was the Word in which there is life.

    4  What do those words mean to a man familiar with  biblical teachings of the time it was wrote and ignorant of those that arose afterwards?


    1.  Agreed.  (“He”, not “it”)

    2.  Agreed.  (“He”, not “it”, was “a god” who was with “the God”.  Because “THE God” cannot possibly be with Himself.)

    3.  Agreed.  (“He”, not “it”.)

    4.  Well, it was John who called Jesus “the Word of God” in Revelation 19:13.  It was John who called Jesus “the Word” in 1 John 1:1.  And considering that the ENTIRE gospel of John was written to explain JESUS to us, and that 1 chapter of that gospel describes this “Word” in a way that could fit no one else in scripture EXCEPT FOR Jesus……. I'd say John was making it fairly easy and clear for us to understand that by “the Word”, he meant “Jesus Christ”.

    Perhaps you could re-read my last post, and compare the things said about “the Word” in John 1 with the same things that are said about “Jesus” elsewhere in many scriptures. Can all of those exact same things that are said about both of them just be “coincidences”? Or could “the Word” and “Jesus Christ” be the same exact entity?

    June 25, 2013 at 12:02 am#348624
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (2besee @ June 24 2013,17:08)
    Rev 19:19 the end of the world the return of Christ Jesus – it is still to come.

    Your opinion?


    Agreed. But the point is that it will be JESUS CHRIST who battles against the beast and the kings of the earth.

    Therefore, it is JESUS CHRIST who rides the white horse.

    Therefore, it is JESUS CHRIST who is called “the Word of God”.

    (It is also Jesus Christ who has eyes of blazing fire, and a sword coming out of his mouth. Rev 1:14, 16)

    June 25, 2013 at 12:10 am#348625
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,
    The blood on the robe before the battle represents the blood of the martyrs that Jesus is going to defend, imo.

    June 25, 2013 at 12:13 am#348626
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 24 2013,15:31)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,05:42)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,04:36)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 21 2013,23:55)
    Hebrews 5:7
    who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications…..


    To all those who believe Jesus is STILL a human being in heaven:  What does the writer of Hebrews mean by “in the days of his flesh”?

    According to you guys, Jesus continues to be “in the days of his flesh”, right?  So what do those words mean to you?


    Hi Mike,

    The author would be referring to the “days” of his weak flesh!


    Jodi…….Another right on and a excellent post Sis. You nailed it, lets see if Mike and his co-hart Pierre can even begin to understand it.  


    Gene,

    Does that mean you'll just be riding Jodi's coattails on this one, and not offering an answer of your own?  :)  It's just as well that way.

    Jodi, I noticed that you had to add the word “weak” into the scripture so that it conforms to your preconceived understanding that Jesus continues to be a flesh being to this very day.

    I find it better to conform my understanding around the scriptures than to conform the scriptures around my understanding.

    You are correct that we have a lot of differences, and much to discuss.

    I will set up a “Mike and Jodi ONLY” debate thread where we can take these things a little at a time.  That way, if you leave for a while, you won't be bogged down with a million new posts since you last posted.

    I'm in no hurry, so you can leave for a month or more if you want, and the thread will be right where you left it when you come back.

    (Please, no huge “novel posts” that contain a zillion scriptures at once.  Slow and steady wins the race.)

    I'll get it started.

    June 25, 2013 at 12:32 am#348630
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi Lee,
    Welcome back! From what I have gained from researching about the Logos of John 1:1, the Word of the Lord was a very familiar expression to the Jews which you can see in the Jewish Targums. John was referring to that 'Word' that they were very familiar with.

    Quote
    In Aramaic, a standard term for word is memra. The Aramaic Targums, however, often use memra
    as a technical term referring to a personification of divine power and presence. The Targums consistently add the phrase “Memra/word of God” to passages in Genesis 1 describing God’s creative acts.
    15
    For example, while the Hebrew Bible reads “And God said, let there be light” (Gen 1.3), the Aramaic Targum reads “And the Memra/word of God said, let there be light.” Variants on this pattern continue throughout Genesis 1. Other allusions to creation in the Targums follow a similar practice. Genesis 14.19 in Hebrew reads “Blessed be Abraham by God Most High, creator of heaven and earth,” while in Aramaic it reads: “Blessed be Abraham by God Most High,who by his Memra/Word created heaven and earth.” The Isaiah Targums likewise often add the phrase “by my Memra/word ” when describing God creating the world (Isa28.13, 44.24, 45.12).
    16
    Thus, in the Aramaic Bible–the translation of the Bible with which most Judeans at the time of Jesus would be familiar–the Memra/Word is consistently described as being with God in the beginning, and creating all things. This is precisely how the Logos concept is described in John 1, where John replaces the Aramaic term memra with its Greek equivalent, logos. Thus, for Aramaic speaking Jews of the first century, John’s Word theology would not have seemed like a radical new idea at all, but a standard way they had already heard creation by the Memra/Word described. What would have been a very radical new idea for mostJews, however, was that John equated this Memra/Logos/Word with Jesus the Messiah, who became flesh (Jn 1.14).

    source: http://www.academia.edu/401415/John_1.1-5

    June 25, 2013 at 1:19 am#348642
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ June 25 2013,06:10)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,00:42)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,04:36)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 21 2013,23:55)
    Hebrews 5:7
    who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications…..


    To all those who believe Jesus is STILL a human being in heaven:  What does the writer of Hebrews mean by “in the days of his flesh”?

    According to you guys, Jesus continues to be “in the days of his flesh”, right?  So what do those words mean to you?


    Hi Mike,

    The author would be referring to the “days” of his weak flesh!

    Scripture, particularly those writings of Paul, use “flesh” to refer to a carnal human mind set.  

    1 Corinthians 15: 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

    Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[/u] 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.

    What is the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body? Of course it would be easy to say that one is a body that can sin and one is a body that cannot. Either way there is still a body involved. Acts and Luke make it clear that when Jesus was raised from the dead, his spiritual body was one made of flesh!

    What caused Jesus to inherit the kingdom of God?… was it through his flesh, was it through man?..of course not, flesh and blood cannot bring you into immortality, we must have no faith in our corruptible flesh!

    Matthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

    John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

    Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

    Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

    Paul refers to “the flesh” as a state of mind that man is in due to the fact that our flesh is weak. Our natural/carnal body fears death, it has a beast of a spirit with instincts to survive. We serve this fear, it is a natural instinct within our body.

    Our flesh and blood does not cause us to inherit the kingdom

    Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

    Romans 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    Being “in the flesh” in this context represent a state of mind, not the literal flesh.

    Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

    2 Corinthains 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

    Paul has repeatedly told us what “the flesh” is referring to, our weak flesh that brings us temptation.
     
    The mind of Jesus was perfected by the things he suffered, even though he had a body that drew him into temptation and sin, he never served his natural body, he stayed true to serving God. This gave him the glory of receiving a fleshly body that could never die. When you have a body that cannot die, death no longer has dominion over you, tempting you to sin. Jesus dwells in a perfected mind and body!

    My understanding is that Jesus received the same flesh that Adam and Eve began with!

    After Adam and Eve sinned their flesh was made mortal. All of creation was put under a spiritual curse, fearing death and serving the body in order to survive. Adam and Eve were created with a spiritual body, but in their ignorance they were far from having a spiritual mind. With a mortal body man’s obedience and his journey to righteousness could be established through suffering combined with knowledge from the Holy Spirit. The mind of Jesus was perfected in his weak flesh, making him worthy of receiving immortal flesh.  Jesus is a new creation, a human fleshly being that cannot die full of the knowledge of the Lord!  

    Isaiah 11:1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. 2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord. 3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears; 4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist. 6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea.

    Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected t
    o futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.


    Jody

    Quote
    Scripture, particularly those writings of Paul, use “flesh” to refer to a carnal human mind set.  

    in Hebrew 5;7

    it specifically is related to Christ ;so all your other scriptures that are specific to man are not the same intend

    in 5;7 Paul talks about an specific time about Jesus AND THAT IS WEN HE WAS UNDER THE COVER OF FLESH ,AND THAT TIME ONLY ,

    Christ in heaven before and after he was in the flesh ,this is why Paul is so specific about the time IN THE FLESH,


    “under the cover of the flesh”?? I have not read a scripture with that statement in it. What exactly do you mean by this?

    Christ was, and is a man, and he once had mortal flesh that was tempted just like our flesh, those “other scriptures” certainly do apply!

    That very chapter of Hebrews discusses that Jesus did not pre-exist,

    5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.”

    Psalm 2:7
    “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

    1 Chronicles 22:10
    He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'

    At the time of King David, the Son of God was still to come, he did not exist yet. The plan of Jesus existed, but Jesus did not exist yet.

    It is a fact according to the Gospel of Luke that Jesus was raised with flesh and bones. There is no scripture that says he turned into some other sort of being afterwards.

    It is a fact according to Acts that God promised “according to the flesh” Christ would sit on the throne!

    30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.

    We are told that according to the flesh Christ would sit on the throne, and we are told that his body was not allowed to decompose, and Jesus said he was flesh and bones after he rose, so I BELIEVE IT!!

    It is not unreasonable to understand that “in the days of his flesh” the author was referring to “the days” of when Jesus had mortal flesh.

    June 25, 2013 at 1:29 am#348644
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,07:19)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 25 2013,06:10)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,00:42)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,04:36)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 21 2013,23:55)
    Hebrews 5:7
    who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications…..


    To all those who believe Jesus is STILL a human being in heaven:  What does the writer of Hebrews mean by “in the days of his flesh”?

    According to you guys, Jesus continues to be “in the days of his flesh”, right?  So what do those words mean to you?


    Hi Mike,

    The author would be referring to the “days” of his weak flesh!

    Scripture, particularly those writings of Paul, use “flesh” to refer to a carnal human mind set.  

    1 Corinthians 15: 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

    Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[/u] 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.

    What is the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body? Of course it would be easy to say that one is a body that can sin and one is a body that cannot. Either way there is still a body involved. Acts and Luke make it clear that when Jesus was raised from the dead, his spiritual body was one made of flesh!

    What caused Jesus to inherit the kingdom of God?… was it through his flesh, was it through man?..of course not, flesh and blood cannot bring you into immortality, we must have no faith in our corruptible flesh!

    Matthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

    John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

    Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

    Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

    Paul refers to “the flesh” as a state of mind that man is in due to the fact that our flesh is weak. Our natural/carnal body fears death, it has a beast of a spirit with instincts to survive. We serve this fear, it is a natural instinct within our body.

    Our flesh and blood does not cause us to inherit the kingdom

    Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

    Romans 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    Being “in the flesh” in this context represent a state of mind, not the literal flesh.

    Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

    2 Corinthains 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

    Paul has repeatedly told us what “the flesh” is referring to, our weak flesh that brings us temptation.
     
    The mind of Jesus was perfected by the things he suffered, even though he had a body that drew him into temptation and sin, he never served his natural body, he stayed true to serving God. This gave him the glory of receiving a fleshly body that could never die. When you have a body that cannot die, death no longer has dominion over you, tempting you to sin. Jesus dwells in a perfected mind and body!

    My understanding is that Jesus received the same flesh that Adam and Eve began with!

    After Adam and Eve sinned their flesh was made mortal. All of creation was put under a spiritual curse, fearing death and serving the body in order to survive. Adam and Eve were created with a spiritual body, but in their ignorance they were far from having a spiritual mind. With a mortal body man’s obedience and his journey to righteousness could be established through suffering combined with knowledge from the Holy Spirit. The mind of Jesus was perfected in his weak flesh, making him worthy of receiving immortal flesh.  Jesus is a new creation, a human fleshly being that cannot die full of the knowledge of the Lord!  

    Isaiah 11:1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. 2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord. 3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears; 4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist. 6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth sha
    ll be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea.

    Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.


    Jody

    Quote
    Scripture, particularly those writings of Paul, use “flesh” to refer to a carnal human mind set.  

    in Hebrew 5;7

    it specifically is related to Christ ;so all your other scriptures that are specific to man are not the same intend

    in 5;7 Paul talks about an specific time about Jesus AND THAT IS WEN HE WAS UNDER THE COVER OF FLESH ,AND THAT TIME ONLY ,

    Christ in heaven before and after he was in the flesh ,this is why Paul is so specific about the time IN THE FLESH,


    “under the cover of the flesh”?? I have not read a scripture with that statement in it. What exactly do you mean by this?

    Christ was, and is a man, and he once had mortal flesh that was tempted just like our flesh, those “other scriptures” certainly do apply!

    That very chapter of Hebrews discusses that Jesus did not pre-exist,

    5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.”

    Psalm 2:7
    “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

    1 Chronicles 22:10
    He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'

    At the time of King David, the Son of God was still to come, he did not exist yet. The plan of Jesus existed, but Jesus did not exist yet.

    It is a fact according to the Gospel of Luke that Jesus was raised with flesh and bones. There is no scripture that says he turned into some other sort of being afterwards.

    It is a fact according to Acts that God promised “according to the flesh” Christ would sit on the throne!

    30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.

    We are told that according to the flesh Christ would sit on the throne, and we are told that his body was not allowed to decompose, and Jesus said he was flesh and bones after he rose, so I BELIEVE IT!!

    It is not unreasonable to understand that “in the days of his flesh” the author was referring to “the days” of when Jesus had mortal flesh.


    JODI

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
    Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
    Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
    Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
    Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

    verse 16 says that all things were created through him IF HE WAS NOT THERE HOW COULD THIS BE ???

    AND WHY COULD CHRIST BE THE ONE THAT CAN RECONCILED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH ???

    AND WHY DID IT TOOK ;THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE POWER OF GOD TO BRING CHRIST TO HIS BIRTH FROM A WOMEN ???

    June 25, 2013 at 1:51 am#348646
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2013,11:13)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 24 2013,15:31)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,05:42)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,04:36)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 21 2013,23:55)
    Hebrews 5:7
    who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications…..


    To all those who believe Jesus is STILL a human being in heaven:  What does the writer of Hebrews mean by “in the days of his flesh”?

    According to you guys, Jesus continues to be “in the days of his flesh”, right?  So what do those words mean to you?


    Hi Mike,

    The author would be referring to the “days” of his weak flesh!


    Jodi…….Another right on and a excellent post Sis. You nailed it, lets see if Mike and his co-hart Pierre can even begin to understand it.  


    Gene,

    Does that mean you'll just be riding Jodi's coattails on this one, and not offering an answer of your own?  :)  It's just as well that way.

    Jodi, I noticed that you had to add the word “weak” into the scripture so that it conforms to your preconceived understanding that Jesus continues to be a flesh being to this very day.

    I find it better to conform my understanding around the scriptures than to conform the scriptures around my understanding.

    You are correct that we have a lot of differences, and much to discuss.

    I will set up a “Mike and Jodi ONLY” debate thread where we can take these things a little at a time.  That way, if you leave for a while, you won't be bogged down with a million new posts since you last posted.

    I'm in no hurry, so you can leave for a month or more if you want, and the thread will be right where you left it when you come back.

    (Please, no huge “novel posts” that contain a zillion scriptures at once.  Slow and steady wins the race.)

    I'll get it started.


    Okay Mike, that sounds good.

    I have the summer off, so I won't be going anywhere too soon! I will work on making my posts shorter, ha, I do remember that bothering you before!! :)

    June 25, 2013 at 2:28 am#348656
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike………The difference between me and you is, when I hear the truth I know it, and acknowledge it, you and your co-hart Pierre on the other hand, have no idea of it, and can only disagree and stumble along, trying to make scripture say what it obviously, does not say. As far as riding on Jodie's coat tail, she is only repeating what I have also said over and over for years now. IMO

    Peace and love to you and your……………………….gene

    June 25, 2013 at 2:33 am#348658
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2013,08:28)
    Mike………The difference between me and you is, when I hear the truth I know it, and acknowledge it, you and your co-hart Pierre on the other hand, have no idea of it, and can only disagree and stumble along, trying to make scripture say what it obviously, does not say. As far as riding on Jodie's coat tail, she is only repeating what I have also said over and over for years now. IMO

    Peace and love to you and your……………………….gene


    Gene

    We all can see our own truth but that is not the one preached in the scriptures ,it is the truth of God in scriptures and that you do not see, because we can read what you say and it does not fit the scriptures,

    June 25, 2013 at 2:39 am#348659
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……..Check out the DISCUSSION thread , would like your input there also.

    Peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

    June 25, 2013 at 2:57 am#348660
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ June 25 2013,13:33)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2013,08:28)
    Mike………The difference between me and you is, when I hear the truth I know it, and acknowledge it, you and your co-hart Pierre on the other hand, have no idea of it, and can only disagree and stumble along, trying to make scripture say what it obviously, does not say. As far as riding on Jodie's coat tail, she is only repeating what I have also said over and over for years now. IMO

    Peace and love to you and your……………………….gene


    Gene

    We all can see our own truth but that is not the one preached in the scriptures ,it is the truth of God in scriptures and that you do not see, because we can read what you say and it does not fit the scriptures,


    Terricca……..What you really mean is you can see ?”YOUR OWN TRUTH” RIGHT,? If we are wrong prove it , instead of just mouthing off about it, it's not us who are twisting scripture to say what they don't say , it's you , Mike and the other Trinitarians and Preexistence here. You have your wires crossed  as to who is not producing the truth here, that is why when we post scriptures, ( actual scripture) ,  you just ignore them or say they mean something else other then what they say. I learned how to tell those who have the spirit of truth in them, along time ago, and believe me it is definitely not you, but you do have a spirit working in you, and to all who have the spirit of truth in them , they can see it clearly. They don't need a “MYSTERY” Form of religion as you people do.

    The lines are being drawn here between those who have the truth and those who don't, I see those lines between the wise and the foolish
    More and more prevalent here now. I have no doubt at all you have no idea what you guys are even talking about and I am not alone on this either.

    Peace and love ……………………………gene

    June 25, 2013 at 4:10 pm#348677
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ June 25 2013,12:29)
    JODI

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
    Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
    Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
    Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
    Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

    verse 16 says that all things were created through him IF HE WAS NOT THERE HOW COULD THIS BE ???

    AND WHY COULD CHRIST BE THE ONE THAT CAN RECONCILED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH ???

    AND WHY DID IT TOOK ;THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE POWER OF GOD TO BRING CHRIST TO HIS BIRTH FROM A WOMEN ???


    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    He who? There is a difference between some pre-existing immortal being, and the man who was in every way like us but yet became perfected through suffering. Genesis and Apostle Paul tells us that MAN was created in the image of God.  I could not imagine Jesus being exactly the image of God until he was made perfect, can you? ALL scriptures referring to a person being the image of God refer specifically to a human being.  
    The firstborn over all creation?

    Colossians itself identifies WHICH creation the MAN that is the image of God is firstborn over all, the new heaven and earth established for those raised from the dead! Colossians specifies it for us telling us that … “And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead.”

    2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

    Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

    2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

    Never once does Colossians speak of some spirit being that transformed himself into a human.  All scriptures must be read in the context that they are referring to the MAN Jesus, not a spirit being that became Jesus.

    2 Timothy 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

    “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.”

    There is a HUGE difference as to who this is speaking of and what that MEANS TO US! Does the surrounding scripture talk about the glory of some spirit being before creation?.. . NO! The entire scripture is referring to the MAN that died on the cross. God created all things through the plan of the coming Messiah, God created all things for the Messiah.  God created all things through the knowledge of the MAN He would perfect. God created all things for the PERFECTED MAN.  

    ————————–
    It took the Holy Spirit and the power of God to bring John the baptist as well as other OT children!!
    —————————
    Why did it take the Messiah to reconcile all things?

    Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned– 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

    June 25, 2013 at 5:45 pm#348679
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2013,11:13)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 24 2013,15:31)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,05:42)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,04:36)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 21 2013,23:55)
    Hebrews 5:7
    who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications…..


    To all those who believe Jesus is STILL a human being in heaven:  What does the writer of Hebrews mean by “in the days of his flesh”?

    According to you guys, Jesus continues to be “in the days of his flesh”, right?  So what do those words mean to you?


    Hi Mike,

    The author would be referring to the “days” of his weak flesh!


    Jodi…….Another right on and a excellent post Sis. You nailed it, lets see if Mike and his co-hart Pierre can even begin to understand it.  


    Gene,

    Does that mean you'll just be riding Jodi's coattails on this one, and not offering an answer of your own?  :)  It's just as well that way.

    Jodi, I noticed that you had to add the word “weak” into the scripture so that it conforms to your preconceived understanding that Jesus continues to be a flesh being to this very day.

    I find it better to conform my understanding around the scriptures than to conform the scriptures around my understanding.

    You are correct that we have a lot of differences, and much to discuss.

    I will set up a “Mike and Jodi ONLY” debate thread where we can take these things a little at a time.  That way, if you leave for a while, you won't be bogged down with a million new posts since you last posted.

    I'm in no hurry, so you can leave for a month or more if you want, and the thread will be right where you left it when you come back.

    (Please, no huge “novel posts” that contain a zillion scriptures at once.  Slow and steady wins the race.)

    I'll get it started.


    The fact of the matter is, the flesh that is being spoken about was indeed weak flesh, right? We can agree to that?….he cried with vehement cries, he was tempted just like we are.

    Nothing conforms to my “preconceived ideas”, I was born and raised in a church that believed in the pre-existence of Jesus. I have changed my understanding of several things over the years as I have continued to study.

    Let's not waist each others time arguing over who conforms their understanding around scripture. I prefer that we debate by giving scripture and seeing who's understanding makes the most sense by those scriptures.

    Acts tells us that “according to the flesh He would raise up Christ to sit on His throne.”

    Acts tells us that “that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses”

    Luke tells us, “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

    These scriptures directly tell us that when Jesus was raised from the dead and when he was placed on the throne in heaven he was indeed FLESH!

    June 25, 2013 at 6:07 pm#348680
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

    It is NOT a preconceived idea that in the OT a promise was given unto Israel of a man that would be a savior, through being ANOINTED with God's Spirit and thus would be called Messiah or Christ. Jesus was indeed anointed with God's Holy Spirit at the river, and it was from then that he WAS SENT out into the world to perform miracles and teach the word of God.

    When we read CHRIST we should always identify that word as representing the ANOINTED human being Jesus!!

    Let's make this clear, the GLORY that Jesus received from God was a MAN being raised from the dead! The glory represents eternal life to HUMAN BEINGS! This glory was promised before time began. The anointed did not exist before time began, the anointed or rather making of Jesus Christ occurred well after time began!

    Jesus, the man on the cross, is clearly asking for the glory that God promised man before the world was, which was eternal life!

    I guess I should tie this into “the WORD” so I am not off topic!

    the “WORD” that became flesh, was the PROMISE of God being fulfilled.

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