John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 13,001 through 13,020 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #348681
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2013,11:32)
    Jodi Lee,
    Welcome back! From what I have gained from researching about the Logos of John 1:1, the Word of the Lord was a very familiar expression to the Jews which you can see in the Jewish Targums. John was referring to that 'Word' that they were very familiar with.

    Quote
    In Aramaic, a standard term for word is memra. The Aramaic Targums, however, often use memra
    as a technical term referring to a personification of divine power and presence. The Targums consistently add the phrase “Memra/word of God” to passages in Genesis 1 describing God’s creative acts.
    15
    For example, while the Hebrew Bible reads “And God said, let there be light” (Gen 1.3), the Aramaic Targum reads “And the Memra/word of God said, let there be light.” Variants on this pattern continue throughout Genesis 1. Other allusions to creation in the Targums follow a similar practice. Genesis 14.19 in Hebrew reads “Blessed be Abraham by God Most High, creator of heaven and earth,” while in Aramaic it reads: “Blessed be Abraham by God Most High,who by his Memra/Word created heaven and earth.” The Isaiah Targums likewise often add the phrase “by my Memra/word ” when describing God creating the world (Isa28.13, 44.24, 45.12).
    16
    Thus, in the Aramaic Bible–the translation of the Bible with which most Judeans at the time of Jesus would be familiar–the Memra/Word is consistently described as being with God in the beginning, and creating all things. This is precisely how the Logos concept is described in John 1, where John replaces the Aramaic term memra with its Greek equivalent, logos. Thus, for Aramaic speaking Jews of the first century, John’s Word theology would not have seemed like a radical new idea at all, but a standard way they had already heard creation by the Memra/Word described. What would have been a very radical new idea for mostJews, however, was that John equated this Memra/Logos/Word with Jesus the Messiah, who became flesh (Jn 1.14).

    source: http://www.academia.edu/401415/John_1.1-5


    Thanks for the welcome and post, very interesting!

    It has been argued that the early Christian doctrine reflects Greek Myths because those in charge of creating the doctrine, that was demanded to be believed by all, was established by men who loved Greek philosophy, and hated the Hebrews.

    #348687
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,22:10)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 25 2013,12:29)
    JODI

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
    Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
    Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
    Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
    Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

    verse 16 says that all things were created through him IF HE WAS NOT THERE HOW COULD THIS BE ???

    AND WHY COULD CHRIST BE THE ONE THAT CAN RECONCILED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH ???

    AND WHY DID IT TOOK ;THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE POWER OF GOD TO BRING CHRIST TO HIS BIRTH FROM A WOMEN ???


    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    He who? There is a difference between some pre-existing immortal being, and the man who was in every way like us but yet became perfected through suffering. Genesis and Apostle Paul tells us that MAN was created in the image of God.  I could not imagine Jesus being exactly the image of God until he was made perfect, can you? ALL scriptures referring to a person being the image of God refer specifically to a human being.  
    The firstborn over all creation?

    Colossians itself identifies WHICH creation the MAN that is the image of God is firstborn over all, the new heaven and earth established for those raised from the dead! Colossians specifies it for us telling us that … “And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead.”

    2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

    Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

    2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

    Never once does Colossians speak of some spirit being that transformed himself into a human.  All scriptures must be read in the context that they are referring to the MAN Jesus, not a spirit being that became Jesus.

    2 Timothy 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

    “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.”

    There is a HUGE difference as to who this is speaking of and what that MEANS TO US! Does the surrounding scripture talk about the glory of some spirit being before creation?.. . NO! The entire scripture is referring to the MAN that died on the cross. God created all things through the plan of the coming Messiah, God created all things for the Messiah.  God created all things through the knowledge of the MAN He would perfect. God created all things for the PERFECTED MAN.  

    ————————–
    It took the Holy Spirit and the power of God to bring John the baptist as well as other OT children!!
    —————————
    Why did it take the Messiah to reconcile all things?

    Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned– 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.


    Jodi

    why are all of you skipping verse 16 and 17 from Col;1 ???

    it seems to me if you are truthful and right in what you say ,it would also reflect in the total understanding of the scriptures ,and then go for other scriptures support ,

    but your view becomes to nothing sins your are interpreting those scriptures according to your own personal views,

    how could a man (Jesus Christ )be existing before all things ??? and yet 4000 years ad already past before he came .

    how is that ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM AND FOR HIM IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH ???

    how is it that he is the firstborn of creation and also the first

    born among the dead ???

    all those questions have to be answered within your understanding and be coherent with the entire scriptures ,please can you do that ???

    #348692
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,13:45)

    Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2013,11:32)
    Jodi Lee,
    Welcome back! From what I have gained from researching about the Logos of John 1:1, the Word of the Lord was a very familiar expression to the Jews which you can see in the Jewish Targums. John was referring to that 'Word' that they were very familiar with.

    Quote
    In Aramaic, a standard term for word is memra. The Aramaic Targums, however, often use memra
    as a technical term referring to a personification of divine power and presence. The Targums consistently add the phrase “Memra/word of God” to passages in Genesis 1 describing God’s creative acts.
    15
    For example, while the Hebrew Bible reads “And God said, let there be light” (Gen 1.3), the Aramaic Targum reads “And the Memra/word of God said, let there be light.” Variants on this pattern continue throughout Genesis 1. Other allusions to creation in the Targums follow a similar practice. Genesis 14.19 in Hebrew reads “Blessed be Abraham by God Most High, creator of heaven and earth,” while in Aramaic it reads: “Blessed be Abraham by God Most High,who by his Memra/Word created heaven and earth.” The Isaiah Targums likewise often add the phrase “by my Memra/word ” when describing God creating the world (Isa28.13, 44.24, 45.12).
    16
    Thus, in the Aramaic Bible–the translation of the Bible with which most Judeans at the time of Jesus would be familiar–the Memra/Word is consistently described as being with God in the beginning, and creating all things. This is precisely how the Logos concept is described in John 1, where John replaces the Aramaic term memra with its Greek equivalent, logos. Thus, for Aramaic speaking Jews of the first century, John’s Word theology would not have seemed like a radical new idea at all, but a standard way they had already heard creation by the Memra/Word described. What would have been a very radical new idea for mostJews, however, was that John equated this Memra/Logos/Word with Jesus the Messiah, who became flesh (Jn 1.14).

    source: http://www.academia.edu/401415/John_1.1-5


    Thanks for the welcome and post, very interesting!

    It has been argued that the early Christian doctrine reflects Greek Myths because those in charge of creating the doctrine, that was demanded to be believed by all, was established by men who loved Greek philosophy, and hated the Hebrews.


    Hi Jodi,
    You are welcome. It has been a very interesting study for me to look at the Targums which reflect Jewish understanding before the time of Christ regarding the 'Word of YHVH.' I put up a thread that has Michael Heiser, academic editor at Logos Bible Software, teaching about the plurality of God in six videos. He talks about the Targums and their understanding of the 'Word of YHVH' and examines other historical documents and literature before Christ came.

    That thread with the link to the videos is here:
    https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=4437

    Heiser indicates that the Jews had an understanding of two powers in Heaven. The Jews later supposedly discounted this as heresy after realizing that it gave support to the Christian religion. Segal, a Jew who has not accepted Christ as the Messiah, wrote about this in his book “The Two Powers in Heaven.” It is sold at Amazon and you can read a little about it here:

    http://www.amazon.com/Two-Pow….+heaven

    This is a small bit about the book:

    Quote
    Segal sheds light upon the development of and relationships among early Christianity, Gnosticism, and Merkabah mysticism and demonstrates that belief in the “two powers in heaven” was widespread by the first century, and may have been a catalyst for the Jewish rejection of early Christianity.

    So, this shows that the plurality of God was an understanding that the Jews had before Christ came.

    #348693
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 24 2013,20:57)
    ……..it's not us who are twisting scripture to say what they don't say , it's you , Mike and the other Trinitarians and Preexistence here……….


    But isn't it you guys who have to ADD the word “IN” into John 1:14, making it say, “the Word came to be IN flesh” – because you don't like the teaching as it was written?

    Isn't it you guys who pretend you can't see the sequence of events in Phil 2:6-8?  

    1.  Existing in the form of God.
    2.  Emptied himself.
    3.  Was made in the likeness of a human being.

    You guys pretend that all three of these things happened simultaneously, as if Jesus was already a human being WHEN he was in the form of God and WHEN he was made into the likeness of a human being.

    And isn't it you guys who have to ADD the word “NEW” into Col 1:15-18, imagining that only the NEW creation was created through Jesus?

    Isn't it you guys who have to ADD the word “weak” into Hebrews 5:7, because you don't like the fact that the writer of Hebrews is clearly indicating that Jesus is no longer “in the days of his flesh”?

    Isn't it you guys who have to imagine John 17:5 speaks of a glory God had waiting for Jesus, even though Jesus clearly says it was a glory “HE HAD” in the presence of God before the world began?

    Gene, I could go on and on and on with the sometimes crazy things that you, Kerwin, and Marty have had to claim in an effort to “prevent” the scriptures that speak of the pre-existence of Jesus from saying what they clearly say.

    So who's really twisting the scriptures around here?

    #348694
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,11:45)
    The fact of the matter is, the flesh that is being spoken about was indeed weak flesh, right? We can agree to that?….he cried with vehement cries, he was tempted just like we are.

    I prefer that we debate by giving scripture and seeing who's understanding makes the most sense by those scriptures.


    Well, Jesus was made in the likeness of a human being, right?  So whatever flesh a human being has is whatever flesh Jesus had, I assume.

    And it seems we both agree that Jesus does not exist in that particular flesh anymore, right?

    So the difference seems to be that YOU believe Jesus now has some other kind of flesh – a kind that CAN enter the kingdom of heaven – while I believe he is flesh no more.

    According to your own guidelines in the quote box above, which understanding makes the most sense in light of Hebrews 5:7…………. WITHOUT adding the word “weak” into that verse?

    Also, in what scripture can we read about this “heavenly flesh”?  Where can we learn about this special kind of flesh that CAN inherit the kingdom of God?

    #348695
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 24 2013,19:51)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2013,11:13)

    I will set up a “Mike and Jodi ONLY” debate thread where we can take these things a little at a time.  That way, if you leave for a while, you won't be bogged down with a million new posts since you last posted.


    Okay Mike, that sounds good.

    I have the summer off, so I won't be going anywhere too soon! I will work on making my posts shorter, ha, I do remember that bothering you before!! :)


    Okay Jodi,

    Here is the thread.

    #348705
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    But isn't it you guys who have to ADD the word “IN” into John 1:14, making it say, “the Word came to be IN flesh” – because you don't like the teaching as it was written?

    Are you now claiming Jesus did not come in the flesh?

    #348706
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ June 26 2013,08:55)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,22:10)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 25 2013,12:29)
    JODI

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
    Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
    Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
    Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
    Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

    verse 16 says that all things were created through him IF HE WAS NOT THERE HOW COULD THIS BE ???

    AND WHY COULD CHRIST BE THE ONE THAT CAN RECONCILED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH ???

    AND WHY DID IT TOOK ;THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE POWER OF GOD TO BRING CHRIST TO HIS BIRTH FROM A WOMEN ???


    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    He who? There is a difference between some pre-existing immortal being, and the man who was in every way like us but yet became perfected through suffering. Genesis and Apostle Paul tells us that MAN was created in the image of God.  I could not imagine Jesus being exactly the image of God until he was made perfect, can you? ALL scriptures referring to a person being the image of God refer specifically to a human being.  

    The firstborn over all creation?

    Colossians itself identifies WHICH creation the MAN that is the image of God is firstborn over all, the new heaven and earth established for those raised from the dead! Colossians specifies it for us telling us that … “And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead.”

    2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

    Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

    2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

    Never once does Colossians speak of some spirit being that transformed himself into a human.  All scriptures must be read in the context that they are referring to the MAN Jesus, not a spirit being that became Jesus.

    2 Timothy 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

    “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.”

    There is a HUGE difference as to who this is speaking of and what that MEANS TO US! Does the surrounding scripture talk about the glory of some spirit being before creation?.. . NO! The entire scripture is referring to the MAN that died on the cross. God created all things through the plan of the coming Messiah, God created all things for the Messiah.  God created all things through the knowledge of the MAN He would perfect. God created all things for the PERFECTED MAN.  

    ————————–
    It took the Holy Spirit and the power of God to bring John the baptist as well as other OT children!!
    —————————
    Why did it take the Messiah to reconcile all things?

    Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned– 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.


    Jodi

    why are all of you skipping verse 16 and 17 from Col;1 ???

    it seems to me if you are truthful and right in what you say ,it would also reflect in the total understanding of the scriptures ,and then go for other scriptures support ,

    but your view becomes to nothing sins your are interpreting those scriptures according to your own personal views,

    how could a man (Jesus Christ )be existing before all things ??? and yet 4000 years ad already past before he came .

    how is that ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM AND FOR HIM IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH ???

    how is it that he is the firstborn of creation and also the first

    born among the dead ???
     

    all those questions have to be answered within your understanding and be coherent with the entire scriptures ,please can you do that ???


    Colossians 1:16-17. I didn't skip it I quoted it and explained it.

    If you could address specifically what I said in that post and explain why you disagree with my points and how I have interpreted those scriptures, I think that would make a good debate.

    #348721
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2013,10:37)

    Quote (Ed J @ June 23 2013,20:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,13:00)

    Quote (Ed J @ June 23 2013,16:28)

    “he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood”   …means…

    “their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments” (Isa 63:3)


    That could be, Ed.  It seems the commentators agree with that thought.

    But isn't this rider in Rev 19 already wearing a robe dipped in blood BEFORE the battle even begins?  How could it be THEIR blood before the battle has even started?


    Hi Mike,

    I like when you attempt to use commentators to prove
    your belief – then totally discard them when you disagree.  :)

    Does that not PROVE that their commentaries MEAN NOTHING?         (<– please answer)
                   


    No Ed,

    (1)It means that sometimes even expert commentators miss things.  Sometimes they are led by personal desires, such as the desire for Jesus to be the very God he is the Son of.  So sometimes, for various reasons, they are wrong.

    Most of them have read the scriptures backwards and forwards for years, in English, Greek, and Hebrew.  They have a lot of helpful knowledge.  But they are just men.  And like us, they are prone to mistakes on occasion.

    Now, would you address MY point that DIDN'T come from any commentator?

    (2)How could it be THEIR blood before the battle even began?


    Hi Mike,

    1) Thanks, and a nice explanation at that! I appreciate this yype of response.

    2) “Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?
          I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. 2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
          3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in
          my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart,
          and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold:
          therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger,
          and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.” (Isaiah 63:1-6)

          This is symbolic language referring to spiritual warfare
          rather than physical as you or others may be assuming.

          The term “their blood” – I believe refers to their covering
          which is Jesus' blood; in that manor it is in harmony with
          Rev.19:13 & Rev.19:15. Blood is the HolySpirit's covering.

    Now bringing their strength to the ground – refers to Lucifer, which is a
    false strength, because they are all drunk on his false promises of vanity.

    Your brother    
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #348857
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 25 2013,20:33)
    Mike,

    Quote
    But isn't it you guys who have to ADD the word “IN” into John 1:14, making it say, “the Word came to be IN flesh” – because you don't like the teaching as it was written?

    Are you now claiming Jesus did not come in the flesh?


    Nope. Just demonstrating how we don't have to ADD our own words into John 1:14 in an attempt to make that verse teach what we WANT it to teach…… like you guys do.

    #348858
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Ed,

    Thanks for the compliment. But your post doesn't answer my question…… which was:

    How could the blood on the robe of the rider of the white horse be from a battle that hadn't yet begun?

    #348884
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 27 2013,05:54)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 25 2013,20:33)
    Mike,

    Quote
    But isn't it you guys who have to ADD the word “IN” into John 1:14, making it say, “the Word came to be IN flesh” – because you don't like the teaching as it was written?

    Are you now claiming Jesus did not come in the flesh?


    Nope.  Just demonstrating how we don't have to ADD our own words into John 1:14 in an attempt to make that verse teach what we WANT it to teach……  like you guys do.


    Mike,

    The situation is that is what you are doing when you claim Jesus was made flesh = Jesus came in the flesh.

    #348891
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 27 2013,17:23)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 27 2013,05:54)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 25 2013,20:33)
    Mike,

    Quote
    But isn't it you guys who have to ADD the word “IN” into John 1:14, making it say, “the Word came to be IN flesh” – because you don't like the teaching as it was written?

    Are you now claiming Jesus did not come in the flesh?


    Nope.  Just demonstrating how we don't have to ADD our own words into John 1:14 in an attempt to make that verse teach what we WANT it to teach……  like you guys do.


    Mike,

    The situation is that is what you are doing when you claim Jesus was made flesh = Jesus came in the flesh.


    K

    Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Jn 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
    Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
    Jn 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
    Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

    Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

    who is the person that JB talks about ONE NAME PLEASE ;?…….

    Jn 1:16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.
    Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
    Jn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

    Jn 1:26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know.
    Jn 1:27 He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”

    Jn 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    so please answer my question

    #348892
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ June 27 2013,21:30)
    K

    Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Jn 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
    Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
    Jn 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
    Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

    Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

    who is the person that JB talks about ONE NAME PLEASE ;?…….

    Jn 1:16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.
    Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
    Jn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

    Jn 1:26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know.
    Jn 1:27 He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”

    Jn 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    so please answer my question


    T,

    Quote
    who is the person that JB talks about ONE NAME PLEASE ;?…….

    John is using John the Baptist's words to teach of the attributes of Jesus.  One is that Jesus is the Light of man, another is that he is the Word of God, yet another is he is a human being.

    #348894
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 27 2013,23:51)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 27 2013,21:30)
    K

    Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Jn 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
    Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
    Jn 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
    Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

    Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

    who is the person that JB talks about ONE NAME PLEASE ;?…….

    Jn 1:16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.
    Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
    Jn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

    Jn 1:26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know.
    Jn 1:27 He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”

    Jn 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    so please answer my question


    T,

    Quote
    who is the person that JB talks about ONE NAME PLEASE ;?…….

    John is using John the Baptist's words to teach of the attributes of Jesus.  One is that Jesus is the Light of man, another is that he is the Word of God, yet another is he is a human being.


    K

    why do you have to interpret what as not to be ;you did not answer my question ,

    and you pick some kind of weird approach to all those scriptures very strange,

    and you are also take the wrong explanation for Christ being the light ,

    this is were we can see honesty ,and truthfulness of those whom we ask for answers before God presence

    #348898
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ June 28 2013,00:10)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 27 2013,23:51)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 27 2013,21:30)
    K

    Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Jn 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
    Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
    Jn 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
    Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

    Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

    who is the person that JB talks about ONE NAME PLEASE ;?…….

    Jn 1:16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.
    Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
    Jn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

    Jn 1:26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know.
    Jn 1:27 He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”

    Jn 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    so please answer my question


    T,

    Quote
    who is the person that JB talks about ONE NAME PLEASE ;?…….

    John is using John the Baptist's words to teach of the attributes of Jesus.  One is that Jesus is the Light of man, another is that he is the Word of God, yet another is he is a human being.


    K

    why do you have to interpret what as not to be ;you did not answer my question ,

    and you pick some kind of weird approach to all those scriptures very strange,

    and you are also take the wrong explanation for Christ being the light ,

    this is were we can see honesty ,and truthfulness of those whom we ask for answers before God presence


    T,

    The viewpoint of the 1st Century is alien to the viewpoint of the 21st Century.

    I did answer you question in such a way to avoid being misunderstood. It seems it is not the way you desired.

    You seem to understand that love is an attribute of God and yet you are not understanding that light is an attribute of Jesus. I do not know why that is nor have I any power to change it.

    #348906
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 28 2013,01:09)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 28 2013,00:10)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 27 2013,23:51)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 27 2013,21:30)
    K

    Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Jn 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
    Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
    Jn 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
    Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

    Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

    who is the person that JB talks about ONE NAME PLEASE ;?…….

    Jn 1:16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.
    Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
    Jn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

    Jn 1:26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know.
    Jn 1:27 He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”

    Jn 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    so please answer my question


    T,

    Quote
    who is the person that JB talks about ONE NAME PLEASE ;?…….

    John is using John the Baptist's words to teach of the attributes of Jesus.  One is that Jesus is the Light of man, another is that he is the Word of God, yet another is he is a human being.


    K

    why do you have to interpret what as not to be ;you did not answer my question ,

    and you pick some kind of weird approach to all those scriptures very strange,

    and you are also take the wrong explanation for Christ being the light ,

    this is were we can see honesty ,and truthfulness of those whom we ask for answers before God presence


    T,

    The viewpoint of the 1st Century is alien to the viewpoint of the 21st Century.

    I did answer you question in such a way to avoid being misunderstood.  It seems it is not the way you desired.

    You seem to understand that love is an attribute of God and yet you are not understanding that light is an attribute of Jesus.  I do not know why that is nor have I any power to change it.


    Kerwin

    :D :D :D :D

    is God change ;scriptures says God almighty is the same in the beginning and at the end of things HE (GOD) NEVER CHANGES ,

    SO YOU ARE LOST

    #348907
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ June 28 2013,02:43)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 28 2013,01:09)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 28 2013,00:10)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 27 2013,23:51)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 27 2013,21:30)
    K

    Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Jn 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
    Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
    Jn 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
    Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

    Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

    who is the person that JB talks about ONE NAME PLEASE ;?…….

    Jn 1:16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.
    Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
    Jn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

    Jn 1:26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know.
    Jn 1:27 He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”

    Jn 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    so please answer my question


    T,

    Quote
    who is the person that JB talks about ONE NAME PLEASE ;?…….

    John is using John the Baptist's words to teach of the attributes of Jesus.  One is that Jesus is the Light of man, another is that he is the Word of God, yet another is he is a human being.


    K

    why do you have to interpret what as not to be ;you did not answer my question ,

    and you pick some kind of weird approach to all those scriptures very strange,

    and you are also take the wrong explanation for Christ being the light ,

    this is were we can see honesty ,and truthfulness of those whom we ask for answers before God presence


    T,

    The viewpoint of the 1st Century is alien to the viewpoint of the 21st Century.

    I did answer you question in such a way to avoid being misunderstood.  It seems it is not the way you desired.

    You seem to understand that love is an attribute of God and yet you are not understanding that light is an attribute of Jesus.  I do not know why that is nor have I any power to change it.


    Kerwin

    :D  :D  :D  :D

    is God change ;scriptures says God almighty is the same in the beginning and at the end of things HE (GOD) NEVER CHANGES ,

    SO YOU ARE LOST


    T,

    The fact that we are not the ones that the various books of Scripture are written to does not mean God changes. It is us that must change our viewpoint in order to understand Scripture.

    #348922
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 28 2013,02:53)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 28 2013,02:43)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 28 2013,01:09)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 28 2013,00:10)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 27 2013,23:51)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 27 2013,21:30)
    K

    Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Jn 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
    Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
    Jn 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
    Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

    Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

    who is the person that JB talks about ONE NAME PLEASE ;?…….

    Jn 1:16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.
    Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
    Jn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

    Jn 1:26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know.
    Jn 1:27 He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”

    Jn 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    so please answer my question


    T,

    Quote
    who is the person that JB talks about ONE NAME PLEASE ;?…….

    John is using John the Baptist's words to teach of the attributes of Jesus.  One is that Jesus is the Light of man, another is that he is the Word of God, yet another is he is a human being.


    K

    why do you have to interpret what as not to be ;you did not answer my question ,

    and you pick some kind of weird approach to all those scriptures very strange,

    and you are also take the wrong explanation for Christ being the light ,

    this is were we can see honesty ,and truthfulness of those whom we ask for answers before God presence


    T,

    The viewpoint of the 1st Century is alien to the viewpoint of the 21st Century.

    I did answer you question in such a way to avoid being misunderstood.  It seems it is not the way you desired.

    You seem to understand that love is an attribute of God and yet you are not understanding that light is an attribute of Jesus.  I do not know why that is nor have I any power to change it.


    Kerwin

    :D  :D  :D  :D

    is God change ;scriptures says God almighty is the same in the beginning and at the end of things HE (GOD) NEVER CHANGES ,

    SO YOU ARE LOST


    T,

    The fact that we are not the ones that the various books of Scripture are written to does not mean God changes.  It is us that must change our viewpoint in order to understand Scripture.


    k

    WE DO NOT HAVE TO CHANGE OUR VIEW POINT ,

    only if we want to follow and obey to his rules ,

    rules that as never changed sins Adam and Noah

    the scriptures are only written to those who believe them,that simple

    Jn 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

    Jn 3:11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
    Jn 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
    Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

    #348923
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 27 2013,10:56)
    Ed,

    Thanks for the compliment.  But your post doesn't answer my question…… which was:

    How could the blood on the robe of the rider of the white horse be from a battle that hadn't yet begun?


    Hi Mike, please open your ears to my answer THIS TIME:

    The wording is symbolic, no-one is walking around with blood on everything they wear. (ref. Isa 63:3)
    “Their blood” represents their covering, which is symbolic, and that is the vesture
    that those who are filled with God's HolySpirit are covered with in the battle.

    It is not physical as your question seems to be suggesting, and it cannot be answered that way as such.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

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