John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 12,961 through 12,980 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #348480
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (2besee @ June 24 2013,07:33)
    Mike,
    What is the” robe dipped in blood” which the word is wearing.


    “he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood”   …means…

    “their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments” (Isa 63:3)

    #348485
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ June 24 2013,11:28)

    Quote (2besee @ June 24 2013,07:33)
    Mike,
    What is the” robe dipped in blood” which the word is wearing.


    “he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood”   …means…

    “their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments” (Isa 63:3)


    Ed,
    The robe dipped in blood would be the flesh (son of man) which the word of God was in. Yes?

    #348488
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 24 2013,02:42)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2013,23:44)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 22 2013,02:31)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2013,07:12)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 21 2013,03:08)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 21 2013,06:51)
    Yeah, but ARE you saying that the Word CREATED flesh?


    Mike,

    These are the words I would speak to express the results of the Word being made flesh and dwelling among us.  grammarly.com shows I am using good grammar.

    The Word made flesh dwelt among us full of grace and truth with the glory we beheld, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father.

    I do perceive make and created as being synonyms.


    Kerwin,

    There are many things wrong with your post.  First of all, grammerly.com did NOT say you were using good grammer.  I checked, remember?  It gave you 67%.  It's like they gave you a D on your assignment.  And a D is a passing grade……. but just barely.  :)

    Secondly, “The Word made flesh dwelt among us” INSISTS that you are using the words “Word-Made-Flesh” as a title or name of some entity.

    If you were in fact trying to say that the Word CREATED flesh, you would still need the conjunction “and” that is in the Greek text.  Compare:

    The Word CREATED flesh AND dwelt among us.

    If you remove the conjunction, then the ONLY way it could be understood is as a title, like: The chicken-fried-steak dwelt among us.

    So even after you've REMOVED an important conjunction from the Greek text, you are STILL not making your sentence say what you claim it says.  Now, speaking of removing the conjunction, compare:

    1.  Mike ate AND drank.

    2.  Mike ate drank.

    Do you really expect anyone in their right mind to believe that these two sentences make equal sense, and that grammerly.com would give you a passing grade for the latter one?  Do you think a sentence says the same thing with or without the conjunction “and”?  ???

    Tell you what……….. IF and WHEN you decide to put the conjunction AND back into the Greek text where it belongs, and come to an understanding that INCLUDES that conjunction, let me know and we can discuss it further.  As it stands, I really have no business feigning a bona fide scriptural discussion with a man who has changed the wording of the text to the point that it is no longer even a scripture.


    Mike,

    You should check that(the whole sentence) again as I do mangle my English from time to time and may have corrected it.  grammerly.com may be reading it as a title though I doubt it is.  I believe it is you not me that is incorrectly understanding English but I only speak it fluently and am not an expert.


    Okay Kerwin,

    Here we go AGAIN………………..

    1.  The chicken fried steak dwelt among us.

    2.  The chicken fried steak AND dwelt among us.

    Can you see how the first sentence describes a thing that has the TITLE “chicken-fried-steak”, and how that thing dwelt among us?

    Can you see how the second sentence describes a chicken that actually fried up some steak, and ALSO dwelt among us?

    Are you seriously blind to the difference between these two sentences?  ???

    Like I said, WHEN you come up with an understanding that actually INCLUDES the conjunction “and” – which IS in the Greek text……. I'll be willing to discuss it further.


    Mike,

    I still say “the Word made flesh” when speaking of the Word that was made flesh after it was made.

    The chicken was fried steak and lived among us.
    The chicken fried steak lived among us.

    The first is what was done to/by to the chicken and the second describes the chicken in the same way the boy with the bouncing ball describes the boy.


    k

    but the words of God given to the prophets were then also made flesh ;why would John make it so important and Paul ???

    #348491
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (2besee @ June 23 2013,14:33)
    Mike,
    What is the” robe dipped in blood” which the word is wearing.


    I believe it is to symbolize the sacrifice the Lamb of God made.

    What do you say?

    #348494
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 23 2013,14:58)
    You do require an explanation as Word means Word and you need to explain that it is a title of Jesus instead in John 1:1.


    Agreed, Kerwin. Some people do need it explained to them how the Word in John 1 is Jesus Christ. Most people can catch this easy teaching the first time they read the things said about the Word that are also said in scripture about Jesus…….. but not all people.

    But then again, not all people catch the easy teaching that the Word of God in Revelation 19:13 is Jesus either. Those people also have to have that one explained to them.

    What is your point, BTW? Are you saying that your understanding of the Word being “the Holy Spirit Son of God” DOESN'T have to be explained to anyone?

    #348497
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 23 2013,14:42)
    Mike,

    I still say “the Word made flesh” when speaking of the Word that was made flesh after it was made.


    Okay.   We're getting nearer to clearer now.  So you are saying that AFTER the Word WAS MADE flesh, it is okay to refer to him as “The Word-Made-Flesh”.  I can get on board with that.

    But before he could ever be called “The Word-Made-Flesh”, he first had to BE MADE flesh.  

    So who exactly was with God in the beginning, before he WAS MADE flesh and dwelt on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son?

    #348499
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ June 23 2013,16:28)

    Quote (2besee @ June 24 2013,07:33)
    Mike,
    What is the” robe dipped in blood” which the word is wearing.


    “he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood”   …means…

    “their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments” (Isa 63:3)


    That could be, Ed.  It seems the commentators agree with that thought.

    But isn't this rider in Rev 19 already wearing a robe dipped in blood BEFORE the battle even begins?  How could it be THEIR blood before the battle has even started?

    #348500
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,14:14)

    Quote (2besee @ June 23 2013,14:33)
    Mike,
    What is the” robe dipped in blood” which the word is wearing.


    I believe it is to symbolize the sacrifice the Lamb of God made.

    What do you say?


    The word of God is the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit – and the robe is Jesus of Nazareth, who became the Christ (the anointed) Lord.

    #348504
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    2B,

    1 Corinthians 15
    24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

    25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

    26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

    27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    Do you agree that this passage is about JESUS CHRIST destroying all the enemies that his God placed under his feet?  

    If you do, then you'll also be able to see that it is JESUS CHRIST who does battle against the beast and the kings of the earth….. not the Holy Spirit, nor the “spirit of Christ”.

    Read Acts 4:25-6/Psalm 2:1-2 for confirmation of who exactly the kings of the earth gather against.  Then compare those verses against Revelation 19:19.

    #348508
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,13:00)

    Quote (Ed J @ June 23 2013,16:28)

    Quote (2besee @ June 24 2013,07:33)
    Mike,
    What is the” robe dipped in blood” which the word is wearing.


    “he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood”   …means…

    “their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments” (Isa 63:3)


    That could be, Ed.  It seems the commentators agree with that thought.

    But isn't this rider in Rev 19 already wearing a robe dipped in blood BEFORE the battle even begins?  How could it be THEIR blood before the battle has even started?


    Hi Mike,

    I like when you attempt to use commentators to prove
    your belief – then totally discard them when you disagree.  :)

    Does that not PROVE that their commentaries MEAN NOTHING?         (<– please answer)
                   
    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #348510
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ June 24 2013,08:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,13:00)

    Quote (Ed J @ June 23 2013,16:28)

    Quote (2besee @ June 24 2013,07:33)
    Mike,
    What is the” robe dipped in blood” which the word is wearing.


    “he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood”   …means…

    “their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments” (Isa 63:3)


    That could be, Ed.  It seems the commentators agree with that thought.

    But isn't this rider in Rev 19 already wearing a robe dipped in blood BEFORE the battle even begins?  How could it be THEIR blood before the battle has even started?


    Hi Mike,

    I like when you attempt to use commentators to prove
    your belief – then totally discard them when you disagree.  :)

    Does that not PROVE that their commentaries MEAN NOTHING?         (<– please answer)
                   
    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    truth can come in many ways and many form but you have to be embedded with the truth of God to recognize those truths

    #348514
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (2besee @ June 24 2013,13:04)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,14:14)

    Quote (2besee @ June 23 2013,14:33)
    Mike,
    What is the” robe dipped in blood” which the word is wearing.


    I believe it is to symbolize the sacrifice the Lamb of God made.

    What do you say?


    The word of God is the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit – and the robe is Jesus of Nazareth, who became the Christ (the anointed) Lord.


    Close,

    “The Word” of God is the HolySpirit of God, and
    the robe that the HolySpirit is wearing is the spirit of Christ,
    called Jesus of Nazareth (in the flesh) and Jesus Christ (in the spirit).
    That's the meaning: “their [spiritual blood] shall be sprinkled upon my garments”
                                                       I will stain all my raiment

                      * Jesus Christ is*
    “Owner of owners and Leader of leaders.  (see 1Timothy 6:15)

                   **And GOD's HolySpirit is**
    “The OWNER of owners and the LEADER of leaders.  (see Rev.19:16)

    Hope this helps
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)

    #348515
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ June 24 2013,13:50)

    Quote (Ed J @ June 24 2013,08:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,13:00)

    Quote (Ed J @ June 23 2013,16:28)

    Quote (2besee @ June 24 2013,07:33)
    Mike,
    What is the” robe dipped in blood” which the word is wearing.


    “he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood”   …means…

    “their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments” (Isa 63:3)


    That could be, Ed.  It seems the commentators agree with that thought.

    But isn't this rider in Rev 19 already wearing a robe dipped in blood BEFORE the battle even begins?  How could it be THEIR blood before the battle has even started?


    Hi Mike,

    I like when you attempt to use commentators to prove
    your belief – then totally discard them when you disagree.  :)

    Does that not PROVE that their commentaries MEAN NOTHING?         (<– please answer)
                   
    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    truth can come in many ways and many form but you have to be embedded with the truth of God to recognize those truths


    So, is that a “Yes” then? or a “no”?

    #348518
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,05:24)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 22 2013,01:21)
    I want to talk about Hebrews 5:7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,

    What does “in the days of his flesh” mean? I think I might understand it different than most.

    Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.

    According to the FLESH Christ sits on the throne!


    Hi Jodi,

    Jesus was of the seed of David ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.  He does not sit on the throne ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.  In fact, Paul is also the one who told us the last Adam became a life-giving SPIRIT. (1 Cor 15:45)  It was also Paul who told us that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God.  (1 Cor 15:50)  And Jesus himself told us that flesh can neither see, nor enter the kingdom of heaven.  (John 3:3-7)

    I am happy to see that you realize there is something amiss between your belief that Jesus is still flesh in heaven, and the words of Hebrews 5:7.  I made my previous post about this verse before even reading your second post – so it is interesting to me that we were both thinking, “something's not right here”.

    And while I appreciate your attempt to “explain 5:7 away”, you didn't really do it.  Nothing in your second post explains the words “in the days of his flesh”.

    Perhaps this one scripture will be the turning point for you and the others.  Perhaps this one scripture will be enough for you guys to realize that Jesus is not still a flesh being dwelling in the spiritual realm of heaven.

    Anyway, I know that you come and go on this site – never sticking around for too long.  But in the off chance that you will return to read these responses, I offer you this scripturally based research I painstakingly did to show how the things John said about “the Word” in John 1 are also ALL said about “Jesus” elsewhere in scripture.  Give it some consideration……………

    The italicized words below are things said about “the Word” in John 1.  The scriptures listed in parenthesis identify some of the places in scripture where those same exact things are said about Jesus.

    1.  And the Word was a god:  (Is 9:6, Heb 1:8-9, etc.)

    2.  He was with God in the beginning:  (John 17:5)

    3.  All things were made through him:  (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)

    4.  In him was life, and that life was the light of men:  (John 5:26, John 8:12)

    5.  The light shines in the darkness:  (Matthew 4:16; John 3:19; 2 Corinthians 4:6)

    6.  John the Baptist came as a witness to testify concerning that light:  (John 1:29-34; 3:26; 5:32-36)

    7.  The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world:  (Isaiah 42:6-7; John 3:19, 9:5, 12:35-36, 46; Luke 1:78-79)

    8.  Though he was in the world, the world did not recognize him:  (Isaiah 53:3, John 4:10, Acts 13:27, John 12:37-38, 1 John 3:1)

    9.  He came to that which was his own: (Col 1:16; Matt 11:27; John 3:35, 13:3, 16:15; Eph 1:10; Heb 1:2)

    10.  but his own did not receive him:  (Luke 9:53; John 5:43; Acts 13:46)

    11.  to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God:  (Acts 4:12; John 3:14-16; Gal 3:26; Heb 2:10; Eph 1:5)

    12.  The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us:  (1 John 1:1-2, 4:2; Phil 2:6-7; Rom 8:3; Gal 4:4-5)

    13.  We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten:  (John 1:18, 3:16-18; 1 John 4:9)

    14.  who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.:  (John 1:16, 14:6; Luke 2:40; Romans 1:5)

    15.  John testified concerning him.:  (Mark 1:7-8; John 1:32, 34; John 3:26; John 5:32-33; John 10:41)

    16.  He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”:  (John 1:29-30; John 3:28,30; Micah 5:2; Acts 19:4)

    Jodi, I truly hope you look those scriptures up, and realize how most of them could ONLY be said about Jesus – because no one else in scripture would fit.  And as you come to this realization, remember that all these things are said about the one John called “the Word” in John 1, 1 John 1:1, and Rev 19:13.  The Word is so obviously Jesus that it is beyond me how some people are unable to see it.


    Hi Mike,

    We have much to debate it looks like on this topic! Let me ask you separately this question,

    What does it mean that Jesus is the Word? I don't understand what you believe that means exactly.

    Thank You,
    Jodi Lee

    #348525
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    Glad to see you're back. The term Mike uses
    (I believe is) “God's top Spokesman”.

    But explaining why Jesus is “God's top spokesman” hardly counts
    as an answer to your question; but I believe that is what his response will be.  :D

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #348559
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ June 24 2013,05:55)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 24 2013,02:42)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2013,23:44)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 22 2013,02:31)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2013,07:12)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 21 2013,03:08)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 21 2013,06:51)
    Yeah, but ARE you saying that the Word CREATED flesh?


    Mike,

    These are the words I would speak to express the results of the Word being made flesh and dwelling among us.  grammarly.com shows I am using good grammar.

    The Word made flesh dwelt among us full of grace and truth with the glory we beheld, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father.

    I do perceive make and created as being synonyms.


    Kerwin,

    There are many things wrong with your post.  First of all, grammerly.com did NOT say you were using good grammer.  I checked, remember?  It gave you 67%.  It's like they gave you a D on your assignment.  And a D is a passing grade……. but just barely.  :)

    Secondly, “The Word made flesh dwelt among us” INSISTS that you are using the words “Word-Made-Flesh” as a title or name of some entity.

    If you were in fact trying to say that the Word CREATED flesh, you would still need the conjunction “and” that is in the Greek text.  Compare:

    The Word CREATED flesh AND dwelt among us.

    If you remove the conjunction, then the ONLY way it could be understood is as a title, like: The chicken-fried-steak dwelt among us.

    So even after you've REMOVED an important conjunction from the Greek text, you are STILL not making your sentence say what you claim it says.  Now, speaking of removing the conjunction, compare:

    1.  Mike ate AND drank.

    2.  Mike ate drank.

    Do you really expect anyone in their right mind to believe that these two sentences make equal sense, and that grammerly.com would give you a passing grade for the latter one?  Do you think a sentence says the same thing with or without the conjunction “and”?  ???

    Tell you what……….. IF and WHEN you decide to put the conjunction AND back into the Greek text where it belongs, and come to an understanding that INCLUDES that conjunction, let me know and we can discuss it further.  As it stands, I really have no business feigning a bona fide scriptural discussion with a man who has changed the wording of the text to the point that it is no longer even a scripture.


    Mike,

    You should check that(the whole sentence) again as I do mangle my English from time to time and may have corrected it.  grammerly.com may be reading it as a title though I doubt it is.  I believe it is you not me that is incorrectly understanding English but I only speak it fluently and am not an expert.


    Okay Kerwin,

    Here we go AGAIN………………..

    1.  The chicken fried steak dwelt among us.

    2.  The chicken fried steak AND dwelt among us.

    Can you see how the first sentence describes a thing that has the TITLE “chicken-fried-steak”, and how that thing dwelt among us?

    Can you see how the second sentence describes a chicken that actually fried up some steak, and ALSO dwelt among us?

    Are you seriously blind to the difference between these two sentences?  ???

    Like I said, WHEN you come up with an understanding that actually INCLUDES the conjunction “and” – which IS in the Greek text……. I'll be willing to discuss it further.


    Mike,

    I still say “the Word made flesh” when speaking of the Word that was made flesh after it was made.

    The chicken was fried steak and lived among us.
    The chicken fried steak lived among us.

    The first is what was done to/by to the chicken and the second describes the chicken in the same way the boy with the bouncing ball describes the boy.


    k

    but the words of God given to the prophets were then also made flesh ;why would John make it so important and Paul ???


    T,

    The prophets spoke the word of God while carried along by the Spirit and testified of a time to come when God's word would be written on the minds of his people and placed within their inward parts. Jesus is the way that time has come to be.

    #348561
    kerwin
    Participant

    Jodi Lee,

    Nice to hear from you and are things going well?

    #348564
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (2besee @ June 24 2013,08:04)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,14:14)

    Quote (2besee @ June 23 2013,14:33)
    Mike,
    What is the” robe dipped in blood” which the word is wearing.


    I believe it is to symbolize the sacrifice the Lamb of God made.

    What do you say?


    The word of God is the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit – and the robe is Jesus of Nazareth, who became the Christ (the anointed) Lord.


    2besee,

    White robe generally means righteousness or holy spirit. Blood is Jesus' badge of honor.

    #348565
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,07:52)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 23 2013,14:42)
    Mike,

    I still say “the Word made flesh” when speaking of the Word that was made flesh after it was made.


    Okay.   We're getting nearer to clearer now.  So you are saying that AFTER the Word WAS MADE flesh, it is okay to refer to him as “The Word-Made-Flesh”.  I can get on board with that.

    But before he could ever be called “The Word-Made-Flesh”, he first had to BE MADE flesh.  

    So who exactly was with God in the beginning, before he WAS MADE flesh and dwelt on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son?


    Mike,

    Before the Word was made flesh it was not the Word made flesh. It was the Word that was with the god and was god in the beginning. It was the Word by which all things were made. It was the Word in which there is life.

    What do those words mean to a man familiar with biblical teachings of the time it was wrote and ignorant of those that arose afterwards?

    #348584
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Thanks for the welcoming words Gene, Ed J, Mike, and Kerwin!

    Proverbs 8:1 Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice? 2 On the heights along the way, where the paths meet, she takes her stand; 3 beside the gates leading into the city, at the entrances, she cries aloud: 4 “To you, O men, I call out; I raise my voice to all mankind. 5 You who are simple, gain prudence; you who are foolish, gain understanding. 6 Listen, for I have worthy things to say; I open my lips to speak what is right. 7 My mouth speaks what is true, for my lips detest wickedness. 8 All the words of my mouth are just; none of them is crooked or perverse. 9 To the discerning all of them are right; they are faultless to those who have knowledge. 10 Choose my instruction instead of silver, knowledge rather than choice gold, 11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies, and nothing you desire can compare with her. 12 “I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence; I possess knowledge and discretion. 13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech. 14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine; I have understanding and power. 15 By me kings reign and rulers make laws that are just; 16 by me princes govern, and all nobles who rule on earth. 17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me. 18 With me are riches and honor, enduring wealth and prosperity. 19 My fruit is better than fine gold; what I yield surpasses choice silver. 20 I walk in the way of righteousness, along the paths of justice, 21 bestowing wealth on those who love me and making their treasuries full. 22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, 31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind. 32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. 33 Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. 34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. 35 For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the LORD. 36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death.”

    Hebrews 1: 1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    The glory of Jesus is a man made righteous, a man that was able not to sin in his flesh through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.  This glory existed before time began on earth. We know that before God created man, he already promised him eternal life, and when he made Adam and Eve we are told that they were made in His image.  God made the worlds through Abraham’s seed and through knowing that by his seed all nations would be blessed. God made the worlds through David’s seed and the promise of eternal life.

    The bible speaks nothing of a spirit being that existed before time began that had actual glory at that time. The foundation of the gospel, the declaration of truth, lies in our understanding that God made a man righteous enough to be glorified with eternal life. If we believe in what God did in Jesus through His Spirit, by our faith we will be glorified just as he was.  When we speak of a “glory” that existed with God before time began as to some other glory, other than our Father’s plan and promise that the dead shall rise with an immortal body, we have in my opinion destroyed the gospel!  God made the worlds through Abraham and David’s seed Jesus. He made the worlds for the perfected man, of which Jesus BECAME when he learned obedience to God through his suffering.

    Proverbs 8 does not recognize God’s Spirit of Wisdom and the powerful Words that come from that Wisdom, as a pre-existing Son. King David tells us that God’s Son had not existed yet, it was a human being to come of his seed.

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