John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 12,141 through 12,160 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #339257
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=terraricca,Mar. 24 2013,06:02][/quote]

    Quote
    THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING:

    Terraricca,

    THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING:

    HAS A PARADOXICAL MEANING!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #339378
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 23 2013,11:25)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 22 2013,12:41)
    But Paul says that Jesus tasted death for all of us.


    Mike,

    I agree,but what bothers me, WHY PAUL DIDN'T USE A CLEAN PHRASE SUCH AS

    HE DIED LIKE US OR HE DIED ALSO……………


    1 Corinthians 15
    12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

    13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.

    14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

    15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.

    16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.

    Charles, to me it seems like Paul is equating the death of Christ with the death all men die. I see no hint of any difference between the death Jesus died, and the death the rest of us die……… do you?

    #339431
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 25 2013,13:04][/quote]

    Quote
    Charles, to me it seems like Paul is equating the death of Christ with the death all men die.  I see no hint of any difference between the death Jesus died, and the death the rest of us die……… do you?

    Mike,

    TO YOU IT SEEMS!!!

    NO TO ALL OF US CORRUPTED MORTAL CREATURES IT SEEMS THAT JESUS DIED THE SAME DEATH.

    BUT THERE'S NO EVIDENCE CLEAR ENOUGH TO SUPPORT THIS.

    I MADE IT CLEAR THAT PAUL WAS NEVER CLEAR THAT JESUS DEATH WAS THE SAME EQUIVALENT IN ALL DETAILS AS OURS.

    IN FACT SCRIPTURE IS MORE CLEAR THAT JESUS' DEATH WAS NOT AS OURS.

    Jesus died for us.For our understanding!

    The flesh didn't actually die!

    Jesus' flesh never initiated any corrosion.

    Jesus glorified immediately on death.

    Jesus' flesh continued the process of spiritualization.

    Paul said that Jesus only tasted death.

    Which means that he didn't die like we do!

    Hebrews 1:11They shall perish, but thou shalt CONTINUE:………. OK IT IS CLEAR YOU SHALL CONTINUE.

    WHICH MEANS CONTINUE THE PROCESS OF THE SPIRITUALIZATION WHICH JESUS STARTED IN THE LAST SUPPER AFTER GIVING THE BREAD TO JUDAH AND TOLD HIM TO DO HIS WORK QUICKLY.

    WHAT WAS THE RUSH FOR ?OBVIOUS! BECAUSE HE STARTED THE SPIRITUAL PROCESS, AND CONFIRMED WITH THE BLOODY PERSPIRATION IN THE GARDEN

    12And as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

    but thou art the selfsame,……..

    SO IF JESUS REMAINED THE SELFSAME IT MEANS THAT HE NEVER CHANGED,THEREFORE HE NEVER DIED LIKE US! HE DIED HIS OWN KIND OF DEATH WHICH MEANS  CONTINUED THE SPIRITUAL PROCESS.

    Now read:

    John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself,

    So he hath given the Son also to have life in himself:

    GOD HAD GIVEN THE SON TO HAVE LIFE IN HIMSELF.OK?

    OBVIOUS: THE SON IS A MAN IN FLESH AND BLOOD NO???

    SO JESUS' BODY ALTHOUGH IT WAS IN FLESH AND BLOOD,

    IT HAD LIFE IN ITSELF.

    THEREFORE THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING IT STILL HAD LIFE IN ITSELF

    IT IS THE SPIRIT, THE SON'S AS FLESH SUBSTANCE THAT GIVES LIFE!

    SINCE IT WAS COMPOSED FROM GOD'S OWN SPIRIT, THEREFORE GOD'S OWN SUBSTANCE, THE SON'S WHICH CAME FROM HEAVEN!!! THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles  

    #339490
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel………If i had a bowl of punch and you and all the gests tasted it, does that mean the punch you tasted was any different then the punch i tasted. No it does not!, Same with what Paul meant saying Jesus tasted death, He simply meant Jesus died Just as all men die. Why are you people alway trying to Make Jesus different all the time then we are. The only difference about Jesus' death is he did not have to die, becasue he never sinned, as all the rest of us have, our deaths are Just dues, his death was not, but he tasted death just as we do for all our sake. It is all the same, death is death , just as the punch in the example is punch and everyone who drank some particapted in the same thing. So did Jesus participate in Death.

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………gene

    #339521
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Gene Balthrop,Mar. 26 2013,03:14][/quote]

    Quote
    Why are you people alway trying to Make Jesus different all the time then we are.

    Gene,

    So you think Jesus is not different than we are?

    HOW COULD HE BE THE MESSIAH THAN, IF HE IS NOT DIFFERENT?

    JESUS WAS LIKE US. BUT NOT IN THE SAME SUBSTANCE AS OURS.

    SO EVEN HIS FLESH AND BLOOD, WAS DIFFERENT!!!

    NOW READ AND EXPLAIN:

    YOU ARE FROM BENEATH.

    I AM FROM ABOVE.

    YOU ARE FROM THE WORLD.

    I AM NOT FROM THE WORLD.

    WE ARE THE SHEEP.

    HE IS THE SHEPHERD.

    WE ARE DEATH.

    HE IS LIFE.

    WE CORRODE ON DEATH

    HE CONTINUED, AND NEVER CHANGED

    Hebrews 1:10 THEY SHAL PERISH, BUT YOU SHALL CONITUE:…….

    12And as a vesture shalt thou change them,

    AND THEY SHALL BE CHAANGED : BUT YOU ARE THE SELFSAME, ……..

    HE CREATED US.

    WE ARE HIS CREATURES.

    Hebrews 1:10 And: Thou in the beginning, O Lord, didst found the earth: and the works of thy hands are the heavens.

    Also:

    PRODUCE SCRIPTURE AND PROVE THAT HIS DEATH WAS NOT DIFFERENT.

    I PRODUCED SCRPITURE WHICH PROVED THAT HIS DEATH WAS DIFFERENT.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #339582
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 25 2013,01:47)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 25 2013,13:04)
    Charles, to me it seems like Paul is equating the death of Christ with the death all men die.  I see no hint of any difference between the death Jesus died, and the death the rest of us die……… do you?


    Mike,

    TO YOU IT SEEMS!!!

    NO TO ALL OF US CORRUPTED MORTAL CREATURES IT SEEMS THAT JESUS DIED THE SAME DEATH.

    BUT THERE'S NO EVIDENCE CLEAR ENOUGH TO SUPPORT THIS.

    SCRIPTURE IS MORE CLEAR THAT JESUS' DEATH WAS NOT AS OURS.


    Okay. Then show me ONE of those scriptures, that say Jesus died in a different way than all other men die.

    #339741
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 21 2013,06:06)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 20 2013,19:20)

    Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 21 2013,00:12)
    JAMMIN

    the father told us that the son is “A” God NOT GOD THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD THE FATHER

    8 But God said this about his Son:

    “God, your throne will last forever and ever.
      You will rule your kingdom with fairness.


    the father is also a God? did you know that?
    you want verse?

    Psalm 86:15
    But, Lord, you are a God who shows mercy and is kind. You don’t become angry quickly. You have great love and faithfulness.

    Jeremiah 23:23
    “I am a God who is near,” says the Lord. “I am also a God who is far away.

    btw are you a HUMAN or human?

    is there a difference between the word a HUMAN and HUMAN?

    lol

    your nature is human boy. it does not matter if you put a letter A bec you are still human by nature


    This ,a, letter is to show you that THE GOD his not the same god as a god ,

    Just like I may be a human but I am not you who his also human got it ???


    Human is just the same as human

    the father is God by nature
    the son is also God by nature
    they have the same nature, God.

    you and your father have the same nature, Human.

    a god is not God.

    if you say god, that is not truly God by nature.
    but if you are God by nature, you are truly God and not just a god.

    what im trying to say here is their nature (father and son) is the same. they are both God by nature

    #339742
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 22 2013,12:45)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 20 2013,03:54)
    the father told us that the son is God


    The Father did tell us that the Son would be called a mighty god.  Satan is also a mighty god, jammin.

    And in Hebrews 1, Paul attributes a Psalm to Jesus, in which the subject is called “god”.  But also notice that verse 9 speaks about the God OF that other god.

    Surely God Almighty doesn't have a God of His own, right?  But Jesus does, right?  In fact, Jesus told us that our God was also his God, right?

    I worship the God OF Jesus, jammin.  You worship that same God ALONG WITH His servant, Jesus Christ.


    not god mike boy. the bible said the son is God and not god.
    only your favorite fake bible NWT says god

    #339777
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 26 2013,14:50][/quote]

    Quote
    Okay.  Then show me ONE of those scriptures, that say Jesus died in a different way than all other men die.    

    Mike,

    DO WE TASTE DEATH?

    OR  DO WE SIMPLY DO NOT TASTE DEATH BUT WE DIE

    NOW READ:

    DRB
    Job 6:6 Or can an unsavoury thing be eaten, that is not seasoned with salt? Or

    CAN A MAN TASTE THAT WHICH WHEN TASTED BRINGETH DEATH?

    DEFINITELY NOT MIKE!  

    EXCEPT ONE JESUS.

    ONLY JESUS TASTED DEATH WHICH MEANS THAT HE DIDN’T DIE!

    So the above is the FIRST scripture which confirms that Jesus didn’t die like we do!

    Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the SUFFERING  of death, crowned with glory and honour: that, through the grace of God, he might TASTE death for all.

    The above confirms this, not only regarding the word TASTE, but also confirms that Jesus SUFFERED death.

    How does a person suffer WHEN THAT PERSON IS DEAD?

    So the above scripture is the SECOND one which confirms that JESUS DIDN’T DIE LIKE WE DO’

    HUMANS DON’T SUFFER DEATH BUT THEY SIMLY DIE AND  ALL THE SUFFERINGS WILL PERISH.

    SO ,AS I SAID MIKE:
    SCRIPTURE REGARDING JESUS DEATH,ALWAYS USED A PROCEDURE WHICH CONFIRMS THAT HE DIDN’T DIE LIKE WE DO!

    SO UNLESS YOU YOURSELF POST ONE CLEAR SCRIPTURE WHICH CONFIRMS THAT JESUS

    DIED THE SAME DEATH WE ALL OF US DO, I’M AFRAID THERE’S ONLY ONE WAY FOR YOU, TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH, THAT JESUS GLORIFIED IMMEDIATELY ON DEATH,AND CONTINUED THE PROCESS OF SPIRITUALIZATION OF HIS BODY .

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #339839
    terraricca
    Participant

    CAMEL

    Quote
    DO WE TASTE DEATH?

    OR DO WE SIMPLY DO NOT TASTE DEATH BUT WE DIE

    this will depend you true conscientiousness of the truth of God

    #339876
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 27 2013,01:48)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 26 2013,14:50)
    Okay.  Then show me ONE of those scriptures, that say Jesus died in a different way than all other men die.


    NOW READ:

    DRB
    Job 6:6 Or can an unsavoury thing be eaten, that is not seasoned with salt? Or

    CAN A MAN TASTE THAT WHICH WHEN TASTED BRINGETH DEATH?


    Charles,

    That scripture doesn't say anything about Jesus dying a different death than the rest of us die.

    Try again. (Oh, and I only need ONE scripture. I don't need all the rhetoric. Thanks.)

    #339877
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 26 2013,21:57)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 22 2013,12:45)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 20 2013,03:54)
    the father told us that the son is God


    The Father did tell us that the Son would be called a mighty god.  Satan is also a mighty god, jammin.

    And in Hebrews 1, Paul attributes a Psalm to Jesus, in which the subject is called “god”.  But also notice that verse 9 speaks about the God OF that other god.

    Surely God Almighty doesn't have a God of His own, right?  But Jesus does, right?  In fact, Jesus told us that our God was also his God, right?

    I worship the God OF Jesus, jammin.  You worship that same God ALONG WITH His servant, Jesus Christ.


    not god mike boy. the bible said the son is God and not god.
    only your favorite fake bible NWT says god


    So in your mind, Jesus is God Almighty simply because your favorite translations cap the “G” in “God”? ???

    Hmmmmm………………. Was the “G” capped in the Hebrew and Greek mss, jammin?

    #339903
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 28 2013,14:53][/quote]

    Quote
    Try again.  (Oh, and I only need ONE scripture.  I don't need all the rhetoric.  Thanks.)

    Mike,

    I am afraid YOU ARE NOT CAPABLE TO CONTRADICT THAT SCRIPTURE IN ORDER TO PROVE THAT JESUS DIED LIKE WE DO.

    I REPEAT:

    Job 6:6 Or can an unsavoury thing be eaten, that is not seasoned with salt? Or

    CAN A MAN TASTE THAT WHICH WHEN TASTED BRINGETH DEATH?

    CAN YOU TASTE DEATH MIKE, AND REMAIN ALIVE? ANSWER?

    ANSWER AND THAT WILL CONFIRM THAT JESUS DIDN'T DIE LIKE WE DO SINCE:

    ONLY JESUS TASTED DEATH

    THE SECOND ONE MIKE!

    Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the SUFFERING  of death, crowned with glory and honour: that, through the grace of God, he might TASTE death for all.

    CAN YOU MIKE, SUFFER DEATH AND IN THE SAME TIME REMAIN ALIVE, OR YOU SIMPLY DIE AND NO MORE SUFFERING.

    YOU CAN ONLY SUFFER WHILE YOU ARE STILL ALIVE.

    BUT JESUS SUFFERED DEATH, AND NEVER DIED LIKE WE DO

    HIS DEATH IS UNIQUE LIKE ALL HIS ATTRIBUTES AS THE WORD MADE FLESH! GOD IN FLESH!

    IN ORDER TO GLORIFY THROUGH DEATH ITSELF.

    SCRIPTURE NEVER DECLARED THAT HE DIED LIKE WE DO!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #339990
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Charles, it is not my job to prove a negative.  It is YOUR job to prove the positive.

    Job 6:6 doesn't say anything about death at all.  Nor do I see any indication that it is about Jesus.  Nor are there any words in that verse that discuss different kinds of death.

    Like I said, try again.

    #340092
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 28 2013,14:55)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 26 2013,21:57)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 22 2013,12:45)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 20 2013,03:54)
    the father told us that the son is God


    The Father did tell us that the Son would be called a mighty god.  Satan is also a mighty god, jammin.

    And in Hebrews 1, Paul attributes a Psalm to Jesus, in which the subject is called “god”.  But also notice that verse 9 speaks about the God OF that other god.

    Surely God Almighty doesn't have a God of His own, right?  But Jesus does, right?  In fact, Jesus told us that our God was also his God, right?

    I worship the God OF Jesus, jammin.  You worship that same God ALONG WITH His servant, Jesus Christ.


    not god mike boy. the bible said the son is God and not god.
    only your favorite fake bible NWT says god


    So in your mind, Jesus is God Almighty simply because your favorite translations cap the “G” in “God”?   ???

    Hmmmmm……………….  Was the “G” capped in the Hebrew and Greek mss, jammin?


    it is not my favorite translation.
    all of the tanslations say Christ is God and not god.
    only your fake NWT says he is god
    LOL

    make your own bible for you to have two fake version LOL

    #340093
    jammin
    Participant

    and why are you asking about the greek and hebrew translations?
    you are having a hard time understanding english version and now you want me to discuss to you greek and hebrew?
    LOL

    scholars are not moron like you mike.
    if they are moron just like you then they will translate greek and hebrew to english with all small letters. LOL

    #340094
    jammin
    Participant

    Proverbs 26:9

    The Message (MSG)

    9 To ask a moron to quote a proverb
    is like putting a scalpel in the hands of a drunk.

    #340131
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Well jammin,

    I see a bunch of childish insults, but no answers to my questions.

    1. Is it true that you believe Jesus is God Almighty simply because many English translators cap the “G” in God when the word refers to Jesus? YES or NO?

    2. Was the “G” capped in the original mss? YES or NO?

    #340290
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 29 2013,14:11][/quote]

    Quote
    Charles, it is not my job to prove a negative.  It is YOUR job to prove the positive.

    Mike,

    Hereunder is the POSITIVE:

    John 12:24 Amen, amen I say to you, unless the grain of wheat falling into the ground die,
    25Itself remaineth alone.

    Quote
    Job 6:6 doesn't say anything about death at all.  Nor do I see any indication that it is about Jesus.  Nor are there any words in that verse that discuss different kinds of death.

    AND HERE IS SOME MILK, SINCE MEET IT'S NOT THE RIGHT FOOD FOR YOU!

    What did Jesus MEAN in the statement above regarding HIS OWN PARTICULAR CONDITION of HIS DEATH,  CONSIDERRING THE FACT THAT THE GRAIN WAS DEFINITELY A REFRENCE TO HIM?

    Why JESUS( the grain of a wheat) would have remained ALONE UNLESS HE DIED?

    AS FAR AS I KNOW WHEN SOMEBODY DIES,HIS BODY WILL DEFINITELY BE ALONE IN THE GRAVE!

    HOW COME JESUS, INSTEAD,

    to prove that he didn’t die like we do,

    DID NOT REMAIN ALONE WHEN HE DIED?

    WITH WHOM JESUS WAS EMBRACED ON HIS UNIQUE DEATH, SO HE DIDN’T REMAIN ALONE?

    LET’S CONTINUE READING :

    But if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit…………………

    Mike,

    We all know that when  the grain falls in a healthy ground it never really die, BUT IT BRINGS FORTH FRUIT!

    IT DIES IF THE GROUND IS NOT HEALTHY!

    So Jesus  referred to himself, and made us aware that HE NEVER REALLY DIED LIKE WE DO!
    But continued the spiritual process of his flesh body,

    DUE TO THE FACT THAT HE

    WAS NOT ALONE BUT ENCOUNTERED SATAN, DEATH AND TOPPLED HIM, AND GLORIFIED IMMEDIATELY!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #340312
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2013,03:37)
    Well jammin,

    I see a bunch of childish insults, but no answers to my questions.

    1.  Is it true that you believe Jesus is God Almighty simply because many English translators cap the “G” in God when the word refers to Jesus?  YES or NO?

    2.  Was the “G” capped in the original mss?  YES or NO?


    do you understand what im saying?
    i just say the truth mike.

    the truth shall set you free. it hurts but you must accept it.

    if scholars are moron like you, they will translate english bible with all small letters. do you undrstand what i mean?

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