John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 11,641 through 11,660 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #326317
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 30 2012,03:00)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 28 2012,21:24)
    my example is
    jammin responded to john, MY FATHER!

    does it mean that john is NOT my father? yes or no>?


    Okay,

    Let's lay out the storyline first.

    jammin watched his father, John, die in a car accident.  He hosted his father's funeral, and laid him to rest in the family cemetery plot.

    Years went by, and one day, jammin was walking to the store to get some more mosquito coil for himself, when suddenly, he heard a voice from behind him saying, “jammin, my son!  I've missed you all of these years!”

    jammin turned around to see it was indeed his father, whom he buried in the family plot all those years ago.  Overcome by emotion, jammin said to him, “My father!”, and, “My God!”

    Now that we have the story, it is clear that John truly was your father.  It is not so clear that you thought John was also your God.  Your words COULD BE understood as, “My father!  Oh my God, how can this be?!?”

    Anyway, there are two sides to every story, jammin.  And the fact that John, just three verse later, wrote, “these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God”, needs to also be considered.  (Well, that statement, along with the hundreds of other scriptures that CLEARLY testify that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN the God he is the Son of.)

    In short, one cannot SENSIBLY build a doctrine on the excited exclamation of one man who was seeing someone he never thought he'd see again.  You cannot SENSIBLY ignore all the other scriptures that speak of Jesus being the Son, Servant, Prophet, Word, Messiah, Lamb, creation, Holy One, firstborn, Priest, Mediator, only begotten, and Messenger OF God – just to focus on the words that Thomas exclaimed in 20:28.


    if my words could be understood as OH MY GOD then i will not say MY GOD. are you out of your mind mike? LOL

    my faher and my God is not the same as OH MY GOD.

    in fact, if thomas is not really saying that to jesus, jesus will surely not tolerate those words.
    jesus is really Lord and God just like his father.

    there is no such thing as a little god just like your belief mike. LOL

    you know youre confused. before you believe Christ is god and now you are changing it to God.

    god is not God.

    you do not know the language and do not act like you are better than those scholars who translated the bible.
    i suggest you make your own bible and put all your imagination to support your doctrine.

    #326319
    jammin
    Participant

    im not ignoring those facts that jesus is the son, Word, messiah etc.
    but what you are saying is INCOMPLETE. you know the meaning of INCOMPLETE????

    you are not saying the WHOLE TRUTH. that is a devil's work.
    the bible said CHRIST IS GOD just like his father. he came to earth and took the human form. phil 2.6
    the WORD (Christ) became flesh and you know that. you believe that he is THE WORD in john 1.1
    and that WORD (title of Christ) became flesh. therefore he is not really like us. he came to earth to serve and not to be served.

    That is A gift from God but you are not accepting those facts.
    repent mike and be baptized

    #326321
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 29 2012,06:31)
    Hi Jammin,

    Sorry to burst your bubble, but they said Jesus is the “Son of God” instead; as did Jesus.

    God bless
    Ed J


    Hi Jammin,

    Where is “The Father” ever spoken of as “The Son”?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #326331
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=jammin,Dec. 30 2012,15:29][/quote]

    Quote
    and that WORD (title of Christ) became flesh.

    Edj,

    Reflect

    JOHN DIDN'T SAY THE WORD BECAME MAN BUT FLESH

    DID YOU EVER REFLECTED WHY JOHN FELT THAT IT IS MORE VITAL TO SAY THE WORD BECAME FLESH AND NOT MAN???

    DID YOU GET IT ???

    IS THERE ANY DOUBT THAT JESUS' SPIRIT, THE WORD, IS ONLY:

    THE FLESH SUBSTANCE OF JESUS CHRIST

    IS THERE ANY DOUBT THAT, SINCE MARY WAS COMCEIVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT:

    JESUS SOUL IS THE HOLY SPIRIT???

    IS THERE THEREFORE ALSO ANY DOUBT THAT THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER THROUGH JESUS' BAPTIZM WAS OFFICIALLY:

    ABIDING WITHIN THE SOUL OF JESUS???

    IS THERE ANY DOUBT THEREFORE THAT JESUS CHRIST AS A HUMAN BEING:

    SPIRIT, SOUL AND BODY WAS GOD IN FULL, AND MAN IN FULL???

    GOD COMPOSED THROUGHOUT FROM HIS GENUINE PURE SPIRIT.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #326347
    kerwin
    Participant

    Carmel,

    Quote
    JESUS SOUL IS THE HOLY SPIRIT???

    You are accidentally shouting. You can bold, italicize, and/or underline them by us the B,I, and/or U buttons to open and close what you wish emphasized.

    You should rethink your words as God has/is the Holy Soul as well as having the Holy Spirit.

    Isaiah 42:1
    King James Version (KJV)

    42 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    The human being Jesus has God's spirit placed on him. That makes him a son of God. He is the Son because all others, angels included, come to Yawheh through him.

    That is why it is written:

    1 Timothy 2:5
    King James Version (KJV)

    5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    and

    Hebrews 1:6
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    #326348
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=kerwin,Dec. 30 2012,22:41][/quote]

    Quote
    You should rethink your words as God has/is the Holy Soul as well as having the Holy Spirit.  

    Kerwin,

    The souls was created by God forhumans only OK?

    THE PURPOSE OF THE SOLE IS TO ACT AS A MEDIATOR BETWEEN THE FLESH BODY(EVIL) AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

    THE SOUL IS JESUS' SPIRIT SUBSTANCE, SINCE HE IS THE ONLY MEDIATOR,AND THE ONLY ABODE OF THE FATHER IN US.

    GOD IS ONLY A PURE SPIRIT.

    HIS CREATURES ARE A COMPOSITION OF SPIRITS.

    EVEN MATTER IS A SPIRIT, BUT AN EVIL SPIRIT TRANSFORMED INTO MATTER IN ORDER TO RETURN TO THE FATHER.

    THE PROCESS WE ARE IN IS THE END OF THE LAST STAGE OF THE MATERIAL SUBSTANCE ,OUR FLESH, AND TO ADVANCE INTO THE FIRST STEP TO HOLINESS  ACCORDINGLY THROUGH OUR GENERAL SPIRITUAL BEHAVIOUR WHILE ON EARTH.

    THE SOUL COULD EITHER ADVANCE INTO THE SPIRITUAL STAGE OF HOLINESS,OR  GO BACK IN FIRE TO START A DIFFERENT PROCESS TO BE PURIFIED ENOUGH IN ORDER TO ADVANCE INTO THE SPIRITUAL STAGE  OF HOLINESS.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #326349
    carmel
    Participant

    Edj,

    I want to add:

    THAT THIS IS COMFIRMED HEREUNDER:

    Isaiah:42:1 BEHOLD my servant, I will uphold him: my elect,

    MY SOUL DELIGHTETH IN HIM SO JESUS’ SOUL IS THE HOLY SPIRIT

    GOD CREATED SOULS DEFINITELY FOR HUMANS NOT FOR HIMSELF!!!

    SO THE FACT THAT HE SAID:

    MY SOUL is delited IN HIM,

    IT IS DEFINITELY A REFERENCE TO THE HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF AS THE SOUL WITHIN  JESUS' FLESH BODY,

    WHICH FROM THE OTHERHAND IS JESUS' SPIRIT TRANSFORMED THROUGH NATURE IN MARY'S BODY,

    THE END PRODUCT THROUGH CREATION, IN ORDER FOR JESUS' SPIRIT TO BECOME MOTHER EARTH, MANIFESTED IN MARY ALL HIN HIM, ALL BY HIM,

    THEN:

    I have given my spirit upon him, he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    IT IS ALSO CONFIRMED THAT THE FATHER'S SPIRIT IS UPON JESUS.

    THE WORD UPON IS PURPOSELY USED,INSTEAD OF THE WORD WITHIN, TO ALSO CONFIRM THAT JESUS WAS TWO BEINGS IN ONE PERSON, AND STILL HAD TO GLORIFY, AND THROUGH HIS GLORIFICATION THEY WOULD BE COME

    ONE UNIFIED BEING IN SPIRIT AND FLESH ETERNALLY

    THIS IS CONFIRMED BY JESUS HIMSELF WHEN HE STATED THAT:

    HE WILL RAISE THE TEMPLE WITHIN THREE DAYS.

    WHICH IS A REFERENCE TO HIS FLESH BODY SUBSTANCE ONLY.

    THEN ON THE THIRD NIGHT THE HOLY SPIRIT, JESUS' SOUL UNITED WITH JESUS' BODY AND BECAME WHAT HE HIMSELF DECLARED TO MAGADALENE:

    I WILL ASCEND IN THE GLORY OF MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER (WHILE STILL IN THE STATE OF A MAN), AND IN THE GLORY OF MY GOD AND YOUR GOD( WHILE STILL IN THE STATE OF A MAN)

    THEREFORE SINCE HE ASCENDED  BOTH IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER( GOD IN SPIRIT) AND IN THE GLORY OF HIS FLESH SUBSTANCE (RAISED HIS OWN BODY AS SPIRITUAL FLESH)

    HE IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST.

    AND ALSO:

    THAT THEY, Jesus’ enemies, MAY KNOW

    THROUGH JESUS ONLY, SINCE HE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO WAS RAISED FROM  DEATH, THEREFORE ETERNAL LIFE,

    THAT THE FATHER OFICIALLY IS CONFIRMED THE ONLY THROUGH GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST.

    BUT NOT ALL THE SPIRITS IN HELL BELIEVED THAT JESUS' SOUL, THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO PREACHED THE GOSPEL TO THEM , IN REALITY BELONGED TO JESUS' BODY WHICH WAS STILL IN THE GRAVE.

    THEN WHEN JESUS' SOUL, THE HOLY SPIRIT LEFT HELL AND UNITED WITH JESUS' BODY, THEY REALIZED THAT JESUS WAS THE TRUTH.THE TRUE GOD!!!

    IN BOTH FLESH AND SPIRIT.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles Saliba

    #326358
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 30 2012,12:50)
    [quote=jammin,Dec. 30 2012,15:29][/quote]

    Quote
    and that WORD (title of Christ) became flesh.

    Edj,

    Reflect

    JOHN DIDN'T SAY THE WORD BECAME MAN BUT FLESH

    DID YOU EVER REFLECTED WHY JOHN FELT THAT IT IS MORE VITAL TO SAY THE WORD BECAME FLESH AND NOT MAN???

    DID YOU GET IT ???

    IS THERE ANY DOUBT THAT JESUS' SPIRIT, THE WORD, IS ONLY:

    THE FLESH SUBSTANCE OF JESUS CHRIST

    IS THERE ANY DOUBT THAT, SINCE MARY WAS COMCEIVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT:

    JESUS SOUL IS THE HOLY SPIRIT???

    IS THERE THEREFORE ALSO ANY DOUBT THAT THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER THROUGH JESUS' BAPTIZM WAS OFFICIALLY:

    ABIDING WITHIN THE SOUL OF JESUS???

    IS THERE ANY DOUBT THEREFORE THAT JESUS CHRIST AS A HUMAN BEING:

    SPIRIT, SOUL AND BODY WAS GOD IN FULL, AND MAN IN FULL???

    GOD COMPOSED THROUGHOUT FROM HIS GENUINE PURE SPIRIT.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    charles

    Quote
    IS THERE ANY DOUBT THAT, SINCE MARY WAS COMCEIVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT:

    you mean Jesus was concieved do you ???

    your other comment do not make sens unless you reinventing the scriptures and that is exactly what you are doing ,

    this is the reason why you can not show scriptures to support your arguments .

    this is what religion will do to you.leave you totally empty of truth inside,believing in a lie

    #326363
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 30 2012,07:32)
    [quote=Gene Balthrop,Dec. 30 2012,03:06][/quote]

    Quote
    Jesus was indeed (Uniquely Begotten) Just like Adam was a uniquely begotten So of GOD also.

    Gene,

    READ

    Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generation of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him to the likeness of God

    WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT ADAM WAS UNIQUELY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER???

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel……….Surely you jest brother, if Adam's and Eves creation was not “unique” i would like to know what makes you think it wasen't . Jesus' berth was indeed unique also but no more the Adams and Eve's was. And by the way Scripture says Adam the son of God So it seem we have at least two sons of God who were uniquely created. Right? And let not forget Jesus is called the second ADAM by the Apostle Paul.

    Carmel trying to preach a Doctrin of Seperation of Jesus' exact idenity with his brothers and sisters is Antichrist and even more anti God the Father. Jesus was 100% a human being nothing more and nothing less a “MAN” Not a GOD or demigod or angel “Morphed into a human body, as false religion preaches.

    He was born and came into “existence” just as we did, through a flesh mother as a human being, he is a SON of MAN , just as he said over and over and over, he never preexisted his berth on this earth either. You have bought into the bigest Lie ever told about Jesus. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene

    #326374
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 29 2012,13:56)
    I ASKED YOU ALSO:

    WHAT KIND OF DEATH ADAM DIED IN?


    There is no scriptural indication that Adam, at the age of 930 years, died a different kind of death than all the humans who came after him died.

    #326375
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 29 2012,22:26)
    my words could be understood as OH MY GOD then i will not say MY GOD. are you out of your mind mike? LOL

    my faher and my God is not the same as OH MY GOD.


    “My God, jammin, what is the matter with your head?”

    Now, was I just calling YOU “my God” in that sentence?

    If not, then your point is inaccurate.

    #326377
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 29 2012,22:29)
    That is A gift from God but you are not accepting those facts.


    So the “whole truth” is that God Himself gave Himself as a gift to mankind?

    Hmmmm…………….

    1 John 4:9
    In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

    It seems to me that the “whole truth” is God sent His Son into the world – not that God Himself came into the world.

    jammin, how in the world can you ignore the fact that Jesus is the Son, Servant, Prophet, Word, Messiah, Lamb, creation, Holy One, firstborn, Priest, Mediator, only begotten, and Messenger OF God?

    How can he also BE the very God he is all these things OF? Your doctrine seems very silly to me, jammin.

    #326378
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2012,05:41)
    Carmel,

    You are accidentally shouting.


    :D

    #326390
    kerwin
    Participant

    Carmel,

    Quote
    THE PROCESS WE ARE IN IS THE END OF THE LAST STAGE OF THE MATERIAL SUBSTANCE ,OUR FLESH, AND TO ADVANCE INTO THE FIRST STEP TO HOLINESS ACCORDINGLY THROUGH OUR GENERAL SPIRITUAL BEHAVIOUR WHILE ON EARTH

    First, yelling does not make your point any better.

    I have no idea how you come up with this from Scripture. God teaches us:
    •We were created with both a spiritual side and a material side.
    •That we are being subjected to decay and death by Adam’s sin.
    •That those that believe are being freed from sin and its results by Jesus’ act of righteousness.
    •A human without a body is a ghost.

    Quote
    The souls were created by God for humans only OK?

    As far as I know human souls are not created but are the result of God breathing life into flesh.

    Animal souls seem to be the same as their bodies also are created from the dust of the earth.

    Scripture states Jesus is a human being which means his body and soul as well as the “spirit” he chooses not to walk by are human.

    If you place an animal soul in a human body you still have a beast therefore a human soul is necessary for a creature to be human.

    Since Jesus shares in the humanity of man he also has a human soul.

    It is written that God’s soul was grieved.

    Judges 10:16
    King James Version (KJV)

    16 And they put away the strange gods from among them, and served the LORD: and his soul was grieved for the misery of Israel.

    #326420
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2012,03:34)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 29 2012,22:29)
    That is A gift from God but you are not accepting those facts.


    So the “whole truth” is that God Himself gave Himself as a gift to mankind?

    Hmmmm…………….

    1 John 4:9
    In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

    It seems to me that the “whole truth” is God sent His Son into the world – not that God Himself came into the world.

    jammin, how in the world can you ignore the fact that Jesus is the Son, Servant, Prophet, Word, Messiah, Lamb, creation, Holy One, firstborn, Priest, Mediator, only begotten, and Messenger OF God?

    How can he also BE the very God he is all these things OF?  Your doctrine seems very silly to me, jammin.


    not God the father but the son. do you understand that?

    God the only son.
    John 1:18

    Common English Bible (CEB)

    18 No one has ever seen God.
    God the only Son,

    that is what 1 john 4.9 says
    his ONLY SON
    1 John 4:9

    Common English Bible (CEB)

    9 This is how the love of God is revealed to us: God has sent his only Son into the world so that we can live through him.

    #326421
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2012,03:26)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 29 2012,22:26)
    my words could be understood as OH MY GOD then i will not say MY GOD. are you out of your mind mike? LOL

    my faher and my God is not the same as OH MY GOD.


    “My God, jammin, what is the matter with your head?”

    Now, was I just calling YOU “my God” in that sentence?

    If not, then your point is inaccurate.


    is that what thomas said in john 20.28?
    LOL

    do not compare your sentence to thomas' words.
    as i have said, Christ will not tolerate those words if he is not LORD AND GOD.

    why dont you read the whole book of john .just a suggestion

    #326447
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Gene Balthrop,Dec. 31 2012,02:23][/quote]

    Quote
     And by the way Scripture says Adam the son of God So it seem we have at least two sons of God  who were uniquely created. Right?

    Gene,

    these are your words:

    Jesus was indeed (Uniquely Begotten) Just like Adam was a uniquely begotten So of GOD also.

    SO YOU YOURSELF CONTRADICTED YOUR OWN WRITING.

    TO BE A SON OF GOD IT IS NOTHING WHEN YOU COMPARE IT TO :

    THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD!!!  OK???

    IT JUST HAPPEN FOR YOUR INFORMATION:

    THAT THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, WAS EMANATED FROM THE FATHER AS A SPIRIT, AND THE FATHER CREATED ALL IN HIM, ALL BY HIM ,AND ALL FOR HIM.

    John 1:1IN the beginning was the Word,
    (THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD AS A SPIRIT)

    and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2 The same was in the beginning with God.

    3 All things were made by him:

    (THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD)

    and without him was made nothing that was made.

    4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

    ( THE ONLY THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD)

    5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

    ( THE ONLY THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ,THE LIGHT,WAS IN SATAN/LUCIFER, DARKNESS)

    9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world.

    ( THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD)

    10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    (THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD)

    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    (THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD)

    12 But as many as received him,

    he ( THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD)

    gave them power to be made

    THE SONS OF GOD, (  THROUGH THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD)

    to them that believe in his name. ( IN THE NAME OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD)

    13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    I AM SURE NOW THAT YOU WOULD REALIZE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN :

    THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, and son of god.

    I consider myself a son of god,SINCE I HAVE A SPECK OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD!!!

     but THAT WONT MAKE ME :

    THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD!!!

    peace and love in Jesus     THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD

    Charles

    #326461
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel………. Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God in this way, He is the only begotten from among Mankind raised to eternal life, not the only begotten Son of God, because there are many begotten of God that are called Son of God. I see you take liberty to add to scriptures like all Trinitarians and Preexistence do. Forcing text to meet your belief sytem is not good Scholarship. Where does any scripturwe say ” the only begotten Son of God “as a Spirit” Jesus is not a Spirit he is a SON OF MAN, I have never seen your rendition in scriptures, perhaps you could post it for us all to see. Adding or subtracting words is called “FORCING THE TEXT” Charles.

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………………gene

    #326497
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 30 2012,20:05)
    why dont you read the whole book of john .just a suggestion


    Okay. I'm still in Numbers right now. I'm reading a chapter a day in the NET Bible online. It has a LOT of footnotes, which I also read, so I only read one chapter per day.

    It will be a while before I get to John. :)

    #326499
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 30 2012,20:03)
    that is what 1 john 4.9 says
    his ONLY SON
    1 John 4:9

    Common English Bible (CEB)

    9 This is how the love of God is revealed to us: God has sent his only Son into the world so that we can live through him.


    1 John 4:9 says, God has sent his only Son into the world……….

    I know that because of the man-made doctrine to which you cling, you read that as, THE FATHER PART OF God has sent his only Son into the world………, but that is not really what it says.

    It speaks of one person, “God”, sending a completely different person who is NOT “God”, into the world.

    But you can't understand it the right way because of that doctrine you have fallen in love with.

    Mark 7:8
    You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.

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