John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 11,621 through 11,640 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #326125
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Dec. 28 2012,10:53][/quote]

    Quote
    Where in scripture can I read about Satan owning Adam's soul?

    GENESIS:2:17
    But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. for in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.

    Mike,

    EXPLAIN HOW GOD WAS SO PRECISE IN HIS WORDS WHEN HE SAID:

    FOR IN WHAT DAY  SOEVER YOU SHALL EAT, YOU SHALL DIE THE DEATH

    AND ADAM DIED  930 YEARS AFTER, INSTEAD IN THE SAME DAY THAT HE COMMITTED HIS SIN???

    WHAT KIND OF DEATH ADAM DIED IN???

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #326127
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 28 2012,12:06)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 28 2012,11:58)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 27 2012,18:35)
    JESUS should correct thomas if he was wrong.


    Perhaps Jesus understood that Thomas meant those words as vocatives, and that's why he didn't correct Thomas.  :)

    I don't really want to be in this discussion you're having with Kerwin.  I just wanted you to be aware that even some Trinitarians understand WHAT Kerwin is saying – even if they don't agree with him in the end.


    that is just an opinion from men.
    jesus will not tolerate those words if he was wrong.

    john said he is God.
    paul said he is God.
    thomas said he is God.

    that is what the bible says.


    Jammin………But Jesus Said THOU ARE THE “ONLY” TRUE GOD seems you have a problem on who you are going to believe Boy.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………….ene

    #326136
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 28 2012,12:06)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 28 2012,11:58)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 27 2012,18:35)
    JESUS should correct thomas if he was wrong.


    Perhaps Jesus understood that Thomas meant those words as vocatives, and that's why he didn't correct Thomas.  :)

    I don't really want to be in this discussion you're having with Kerwin.  I just wanted you to be aware that even some Trinitarians understand WHAT Kerwin is saying – even if they don't agree with him in the end.


    that is just an opinion from men.
    jesus will not tolerate those words if he was wrong.

    john said he is God.
    paul said he is God.
    thomas said he is God.

    that is what the bible says.


    Hi Jammin,

    Sorry to burst your bubble, but they said Jesus is the “Son of God” instead; as did Jesus.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #326138
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all………..Joh 4:24….> GOD is a “SPIRIT” A spirit is not a person “IT” is the Intellect that resides (IN) a Person, a Living Soul. “IT” animated that Person or Soul. There are seven destinct Spirits that make up the one GOD or Elohim. These seven Spirits reside in yehweh and go out before him into all creation. They make up what scripture calls the “eyes” of God another words his perceptions, Jesus has these Seven Spirit in him now as shown in Revelations and therefore is able to judge as God judges, These seven Spirit's are not his Spirits but The Father yehweh's .  The Spirit of Truth is just one of those Spirits of GOD. “IT” enables us by giving us a cognance, to percieve truth when we hear it. Therefore it says he could even fool the very elect “IF” it were “POSSIBLE”, The elect have the Spirit of truth “in” them and can not be fooled by a lie.  There are seven destinct types of Spirits of God and each supplies it's own cognance or intellects to us. IMO

    peace and lvoe to you all……………………….gene

    #326139
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 28 2012,11:28)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 28 2012,02:30)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 27 2012,11:21)
    kerwin,

    the son is just like his father. the father is God by nature. the son is also God by nature just like his father.
    he is the ONLY son of God.

    do you know how to read? thomas said to JESUS my LORD AND MY GOD. do you understand that?

    now answer my question.
    who is the LORD AND GOD of thomas according to john 20.28?


    Jammin………..Please show where scripture say Jesus is the “ONLY” Son of God. if you can.

    If you would have read past where Thomas said My Lord “AND” My GOD. This is what you would have read, “But these are written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ (anointed one) ,   the “SON” of GOD .

    All who have God the Fathers Spirit in them are “NOW “SONS OF GOD> Need Proof?

    1 John 3:2…..> Beloved, now are we the “SONS” of God……,

    You left out the word >BEGOTTEN< from you quote of Jesus being the "ONLY" Son of GOD. Jesus is in deed the ONLY ONE "NOW" BEGOTTEN from the Creation unto Eternal Life into the Kingdom of GOD , But certanily not the ONLY SON OF GOD. He is the "FIRSTBORN" from mankind Son of GOD, not the only one to be born into the kingdom of God. He is the First of many brothern to be born into the kingdom of God scripture says.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene


    this proves that you are not reading your bible

    well ill give the verse

    John 3:18

    Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

    18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.

    now how do we became God's son?

    John 1:12

    Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

    12 But some people did accept him. They believed in him, and he gave them the right to become children of God.

    that is the reason boy.
    do not compare that to Christ. he is the ONLY SON


    Jammin………John 3:18…> He that believeth on him is not comdemned; but he that believes not is condemned already, becasue he has not believed in the “NAME” of the “only begotten”   Son of God.

    Now Jammin what to you is the “only Begotten” mean and what was he Begotten from . Here is a hint for you Jesus is the On ly one Betotten from manKind at this time the First to be “BORN into the kindom of God from Mankind.

    If you are going to quote something you should quote it all Boy>

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene

    #326157
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 28 2012,07:06)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 28 2012,11:58)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 27 2012,18:35)
    JESUS should correct thomas if he was wrong.


    Perhaps Jesus understood that Thomas meant those words as vocatives, and that's why he didn't correct Thomas.  :)

    I don't really want to be in this discussion you're having with Kerwin.  I just wanted you to be aware that even some Trinitarians understand WHAT Kerwin is saying – even if they don't agree with him in the end.


    that is just an opinion from men.
    jesus will not tolerate those words if he was wrong.

    john said he is God.
    paul said he is God.
    thomas said he is God.

    that is what the bible says.


    Jammin,

    Customarily Jews called Yawheh by titles and not by name. Both Thomas and Jesus are Jews and so knew this. That is why Thomas is not going to say Yawheh is my God and Jesus is not going to rebuke Thomas for not doing so.

    The bottom line is that Thomas was expressing his faith that Jesus had been raised from the dead.

    #326165
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 29 2012,01:38)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 28 2012,12:06)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 28 2012,11:58)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 27 2012,18:35)
    JESUS should correct thomas if he was wrong.


    Perhaps Jesus understood that Thomas meant those words as vocatives, and that's why he didn't correct Thomas.  :)

    I don't really want to be in this discussion you're having with Kerwin.  I just wanted you to be aware that even some Trinitarians understand WHAT Kerwin is saying – even if they don't agree with him in the end.


    that is just an opinion from men.
    jesus will not tolerate those words if he was wrong.

    john said he is God.
    paul said he is God.
    thomas said he is God.

    that is what the bible says.


    Jammin………But Jesus Said THOU ARE THE “ONLY” TRUE GOD seems you have a problem on who you are going to believe Boy.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………….ene


    he refers that to the father. we do not have two God the father.

    read the context. that is not the only verse of the bible.

    thomas said JESUS IS LORD AND GOD
    paul SAID HE IS GOD
    john said he is GOD

    #326167
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 29 2012,12:34)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 28 2012,07:06)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 28 2012,11:58)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 27 2012,18:35)
    JESUS should correct thomas if he was wrong.


    Perhaps Jesus understood that Thomas meant those words as vocatives, and that's why he didn't correct Thomas.  :)

    I don't really want to be in this discussion you're having with Kerwin.  I just wanted you to be aware that even some Trinitarians understand WHAT Kerwin is saying – even if they don't agree with him in the end.


    that is just an opinion from men.
    jesus will not tolerate those words if he was wrong.

    john said he is God.
    paul said he is God.
    thomas said he is God.

    that is what the bible says.


    Jammin,

    Customarily Jews called Yawheh by titles and not by name.  Both Thomas and Jesus are Jews and so knew this.  That is why Thomas is not going to say Yawheh is my God and Jesus is not going to rebuke Thomas for not doing so.

    The bottom line is that Thomas was expressing his faith that Jesus had been raised from the dead.

    yes thomas is expressing his faith
    let us post the verses
    John 20:28-29

    Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

    28 Thomas said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”

    29 Jesus said to him, “You believe because you see me. Great blessings belong to the people who believe without seeing me!”

    thomas said to jesus, my LORD AND MY GOD

    jesus answered , you believe bec you see me…
    jesus did not say , STOP! im not LORD AND GOD.

    he will not tolerate such words. truly he is LORD AND GOD.

    the apostles believe he is GOD just like his father.
    Philippians 2:6

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,
       he did not think of equality with God
       as something to cling to.

    John 1:1

    New Living Translation (NLT)
    Prologue: Christ, the Eternal Word

    1 In the beginning the Word already existed.
       The Word was with God,
       and the Word was God.
    John 1:14

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    14 So the Word became human[a] and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.

    the WORD IS THE NAME/TITILE OF CHRIST
    he is the ONE AND ONLY SON

    Revelation 19:13

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    13 He wore a robe dipped in blood, and his title was the Word of God.

    btw you are not still answering my question
    my father's name is john

    my example is
    jammin responded to john, MY FATHER!

    does it mean that john is NOT my father? yes or no>?

    #326168
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 29 2012,07:21)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 28 2012,11:28)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 28 2012,02:30)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 27 2012,11:21)
    kerwin,

    the son is just like his father. the father is God by nature. the son is also God by nature just like his father.
    he is the ONLY son of God.

    do you know how to read? thomas said to JESUS my LORD AND MY GOD. do you understand that?

    now answer my question.
    who is the LORD AND GOD of thomas according to john 20.28?


    Jammin………..Please show where scripture say Jesus is the “ONLY” Son of God. if you can.

    If you would have read past where Thomas said My Lord “AND” My GOD. This is what you would have read, “But these are written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ (anointed one) ,   the “SON” of GOD .

    All who have God the Fathers Spirit in them are “NOW “SONS OF GOD> Need Proof?

    1 John 3:2…..> Beloved, now are we the “SONS” of God……,

    You left out the word >BEGOTTEN< from you quote of Jesus being the "ONLY" Son of GOD. Jesus is in deed the ONLY ONE "NOW" BEGOTTEN from the Creation unto Eternal Life into the Kingdom of GOD , But certanily not the ONLY SON OF GOD. He is the "FIRSTBORN" from mankind Son of GOD, not the only one to be born into the kingdom of God. He is the First of many brothern to be born into the kingdom of God scripture says.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene


    this proves that you are not reading your bible

    well ill give the verse

    John 3:18

    Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

    18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.

    now how do we became God's son?

    John 1:12

    Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

    12 But some people did accept him. They believed in him, and he gave them the right to become children of God.

    that is the reason boy.
    do not compare that to Christ. he is the ONLY SON


    Jammin………John 3:18…> He that believeth on him is not comdemned; but he that believes not is condemned already, becasue he has not believed in the “NAME” of the “only begotten”   Son of God.

    Now Jammin what to you is the “only Begotten” mean and what was he Begotten from . Here is a hint for you Jesus is the On ly one Betotten from manKind at this time the First to be “BORN into the kindom of God from Mankind.

    If you are going to quote something you should quote it all Boy>

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene


    begotten when it refers to christ means unique.
    if you want me to believe your explanation, give me the verse of your stories.

    what i can read is begotten means unique
    John 3:16

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten ([a]unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

    unique means one of a kind

    John 1:14

    The Message (MSG)

    14 The Word became flesh and blood,
    and moved into the neighborhood.
    We saw the glory with our own eyes,
    the one-of-a-kind glory,
    like Father, like Son,
    Generous inside and out,
    true from start to finish.

    other meaning of begotten is much loved

    John 1:14

    New Life Version (NLV)

    14 Christ became human flesh and lived among us. We saw His shining-greatness. This greatness is given only to a much-loved Son from His Father. He was full of loving-favor and truth.

    a commentary from barne

    Barnes' Notes on the Bible
    His only-begotten Son – See the notes at John 1:14. This is the highest expression of love of which we can conceive. A parent who should give up his only son to die for others who are guilty if this could or might be done – would show higher love than could be manifested in any other way. So it shows the depth of the love of God, that he was willing. to give his only Son into the hands of sinful men that he might be slain, and thus redeem them from eternal sorrow.

    sorry boy but that is a WORD FOR WORD IN THE BIBLE>

    CHRIST IS THE ONLY SON OF GOD
    John 1:14

    New International Version (NIV)

    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    #326182
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    But Jesus Said THOU ARE THE “ONLY” TRUE GOD

    Gene,

    READ AND ANSWER!!!

    The full sentence is:

    Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee,

    WHO IS THE ETERNAL LIFE???

    HOW THEN THE FATHER WOULD BE KNOWN???

    THROUGH WHAT PROCESS THE FATHER WOULD BE KNOWN???

    AS:

    the only true God, and Jesus Christ,

    PURPOSELY SENT FOR THIS PROCESS OTHERWISE GOD WOULD REMAIN UNKNOWN!!!

    whom thou hast sent.

    #326201
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 28 2012,08:04)
    AND ADAM DIED 930 YEARS AFTER, INSTEAD IN THE SAME DAY THAT HE COMMITTED HIS SIN?


    If a thousand years to us is like a day to God (Psalm 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8), and no man was ever recorded as living more than a thousand years, we can accurately say that Adam DID in fact die in the very “day” he ate of the fruit, right?

    #326203
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 27 2012,19:06)
    that is just an opinion from men.


    Agreed.  But take note that the OPINION the NETNotes scholars ultimately end up with is that Thomas was indeed revealing that Jesus was God Almighty Himself.

    I only pointed that info out to show you that, even though they opine a DIFFERENT conclusion than Kerwin does, they do offer Kerwin's conclusion as one of the possibilities.  And they are Trinitarians, jammin.

    That means that certain Trinitarians are honest enough to at least list Kerwin's understanding as one of the POSSIBILITIES of Thomas' words.

    They don't AGREE with Kerwin's conclusion, but offer it as a possibility.

    One should go into these things with knowledge of ALL possibilities before siding with the one that comes closest to their own doctrine.

    Just be aware that there ARE other possibilities. You can't say Kerwin is automatically wrong, because his understanding is definitely one of the possibilities of what Thomas meant.

    I will demonstrate this fact in my next post.

    #326205
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 29 2012,17:18)

    Quote
    But Jesus Said THOU ARE THE “ONLY” TRUE GOD

    Gene,

    READ AND ANSWER!!!

    The full sentence is:

    Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee,

    WHO IS THE ETERNAL LIFE???

    HOW THEN THE FATHER WOULD BE KNOWN???

    THROUGH WHAT PROCESS THE FATHER WOULD BE KNOWN???

    AS:

    the only true God, and Jesus Christ,

    PURPOSELY SENT FOR THIS PROCESS OTHERWISE GOD WOULD REMAIN UNKNOWN!!!

    whom thou hast sent.


    Carmel………..Point is Jesus and the ONLY TRUE GOD he was talking about there are not one and the same being. The one and only True God was “IN” Jesus, but that does not make the person GOd is “IN” a GOD nor does it make Jesus a GOD either. This is not hard to undertand Carmel.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene

    #326206
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 28 2012,21:24)
    my example is
    jammin responded to john, MY FATHER!

    does it mean that john is NOT my father? yes or no>?


    Okay,

    Let's lay out the storyline first.

    jammin watched his father, John, die in a car accident.  He hosted his father's funeral, and laid him to rest in the family cemetery plot.

    Years went by, and one day, jammin was walking to the store to get some more mosquito coil for himself, when suddenly, he heard a voice from behind him saying, “jammin, my son!  I've missed you all of these years!”

    jammin turned around to see it was indeed his father, whom he buried in the family plot all those years ago.  Overcome by emotion, jammin said to him, “My father!”, and, “My God!”

    Now that we have the story, it is clear that John truly was your father.  It is not so clear that you thought John was also your God.  Your words COULD BE understood as, “My father!  Oh my God, how can this be?!?”

    Anyway, there are two sides to every story, jammin.  And the fact that John, just three verse later, wrote, “these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God”, needs to also be considered.  (Well, that statement, along with the hundreds of other scriptures that CLEARLY testify that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN the God he is the Son of.)

    In short, one cannot SENSIBLY build a doctrine on the excited exclamation of one man who was seeing someone he never thought he'd see again.  You cannot SENSIBLY ignore all the other scriptures that speak of Jesus being the Son, Servant, Prophet, Word, Messiah, Lamb, creation, Holy One, firstborn, Priest, Mediator, only begotten, and Messenger OF God – just to focus on the words that Thomas exclaimed in 20:28.

    #326207
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 29 2012,14:37)
    [

    16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten ([a]unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

    unique means one of a kind


    Jesus was indeed (Uniquely Begotten) Just like Adam was a uniquely begotten So of GOD also.

    He was unique because God created a (Second ) Adam just as Paul explained and the second uniquely created Adam was a MAN Called Jesus, who had half of his HUMAN DNA Made by GOD'S Spirit. So he would look as Isiah described him to look.

    No where does any Scripture say Jesus was “MORPHED” from another Previous existence in any bible text.

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene

    #326241
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Dec. 30 2012,02:34][/quote]

    Quote
    If a thousand years to us is like a day to God (Psalm 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8),  

    Mike,

    I know that your pleasure is always CARNAL, BUT PLEASE KEEP IN MIND THAT WE ARE DISCUSSING SPIRITUALITY.

    I ASKED YOU ALSO:

    WHAT KIND OF DEATH ADAM DIED IN???

    SO ANSWER THIS NOW!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #326242
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Gene Balthrop,Dec. 30 2012,02:56][/quote]

    Quote
    This is not hard to undertand Carmel.

    Gene,

    But for you it is since you didn't answer my questions!!!

    SO HERE THEY ARE AGAIN:

    WHO IS THE ETERNAL LIFE???

    HOW THEN THE FATHER WOULD BE KNOWN???

    THROUGH WHAT PROCESS THE FATHER WOULD BE KNOWN???

    TO REMIND YOU GOD IS THE ONLY GENUINE PURE INVISIBLE UNIQUE SPIRIT:

    AND  IT WAS,AND STILL IS NOT  POSSIBLE FOR HIM TO MAKE HIMSELF VISIBLE TO HIS CREATURES UNLESS  THEY ARE DESTROYED.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #326245
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Caemel………..God make himelf known to you by Answering you prayors, If ypu don;t have a true personal relationship with God the Father then you simply do not know him. Paul said………> tell me this ,He (God) that works mircales among you, does He do it by works of Law or by Hearing of You “FAITH” ?

    God has eternal life and this Life is now in Jesus and all who have his Spirit in them also. if the Spirit that raised Jesus Chrit from the Dead dwell “IN” you “IT” shall “ALSO” quicken you mortal (dead) “BODY”.

    God is a Spirit and can indwell anyone he choses to by that same Spirit that was in Jesus Our Lord, Not GOD. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………gene

    #326246
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Gene Balthrop,Dec. 30 2012,03:06][/quote]

    Quote
    Jesus was indeed (Uniquely Begotten) Just like Adam was a uniquely begotten So of GOD also.

    Gene,

    READ

    Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generation of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him to the likeness of God

    WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT ADAM WAS UNIQUELY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER???

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #326316
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 30 2012,03:06)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 29 2012,14:37)
    [

    16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten ([a]unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

    unique means one of a kind


    Jesus was indeed (Uniquely Begotten) Just like Adam was a uniquely begotten So of GOD also.

    He was unique because God created a (Second ) Adam just as Paul explained and the second uniquely created Adam was a MAN Called Jesus, who had half of his HUMAN DNA Made by GOD'S Spirit. So he would look as Isiah described him to look.

    No where does any Scripture say Jesus was “MORPHED” from another Previous existence in any bible text.

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene


    are you sure??
    i think you do not know your bible

    here is the verse
    Philippians 2:6-9

    New International Version (NIV)

    6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    7 rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.

    read it over and over again.

    the meaning of nature GOD is he is GOD
    Philippians 2:6-9

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,
    he did not think of equality with God
    as something to cling to.
    7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
    he took the humble position of a slave
    and was born as a human being.

    that is a word for word in the bible. Christ is just like his father. his father is God by nature and the son is also God by nature.

    before he took the human form, he was in the form of God.

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