John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 11,541 through 11,560 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #324588
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2012,11:32)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 14 2012,02:37)
    who is the head of the woman? are they not both HUMAN?


    Man is the head of woman.  And yes, men and women are both human beings who share the same nature.

    Now answer mine:

    Who is the head of man?  Does man share the same nature as our head?


    thanks for the answer.
    therefore it does not mean that if the father is the head of Christ, he is not God/

    nice answer boy

    #324589
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2012,11:41)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 14 2012,02:36)
    if i will follow your argument, all god should be GOD

    therefore they are like the father


    Yes jammin,

    In the earliest Greek mss, all gods were called “THEOS” – in all capital letters.

    Later, in the “miniscules”, the copyists switched from all caps to all lower case letters.

    There exists no Greek mss where only certain letters were capped, while other letters were lower case.

    But NO, it doesn't mean all gods are like the Father.  You should learn a lesson from this, jammin.  It really doesn't matter which letters the English translators decide to capitalize or not.  The meaning is in the CONTEXT of the words – not in which letters are capped.

    This sometimes HURTS people like you.  It is because of the English translators who cap the “G” in John 1:1c, that YOU believe the Word was THE God.  Had the English translators left all the letters either capped or lower case, then you would have to decide from the CONTEXT of the verse what John meant in part c.

    Perhaps then, your MIND would think for itself, instead of being mislead by that capital “G”, and you would be able to see the OBVIOUS fact that our one God cannot possibly be WITH our one God.

    But that capped “G” is messing you all up.


    therefore translators are correct. stop fooling people mike.
    they translated god (small g for not real God) bec they know the language more than you know.
    they make this to give clear meaning to the greek bible.

    Christ is God and not god.
    just like his father. translators know this better than you mike., you do not even studied greek and now you want people to believe your imagination? LOL

    why dont you check you favorite version NWT. they are confused! LOL
    they said Christ is god but they translated john 20.28 as God and not god.

    LOL

    #324594
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Good post jammin!

    Those who can't confess that Jesus is also 'the God' certainly can't confess that Jesus is Jehovah, the Son, either. Christians all over the world confess these things!

    Christians all over the world confess that Jesus is God, as in this verse:
    Heb 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

    And Christians all over the world confess that Jesus is the YHWH that laid the foundation of the world as written here:
    Heb 1:10 He also says to the Son, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundation of the earth and made the heavens with your hands. This verse is a quote of:
    Psalm 102:
    24So I said:

    “Do not take me away, O my God, in the midst of my days;

    your years go on through all generations.

    25In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,

    and the heavens are the work of your hands.

    26They will perish, but you remain;

    they will all wear out like a garment.

    Like clothing you will change them

    and they will be discarded.

    27But you remain the same,

    and your years will never end.

    #324596
    jammin
    Participant

    tnx sis kathi :)

    tuly Christ is God just like his father.

    Praise God! :)

    #324637
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 16 2012,22:01)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2012,11:32)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 14 2012,02:37)
    who is the head of the woman? are they not both HUMAN?


    Man is the head of woman.  And yes, men and women are both human beings who share the same nature.

    Now answer mine:

    Who is the head of man?  Does man share the same nature as our head?


    thanks for the answer.
    therefore it does not mean that if the father is the head of Christ, he is not God/

    nice answer boy


    Ah, but Paul didn't say THE FATHER is the head of Christ, did he?

    Instead, Paul said that “GOD” was the head of Christ.  So if the ONE we know as “GOD” is the head of Christ, that right there eliminates Jesus from BEING the “GOD” who is the head of him.  :)

    In YOUR mind, you TWIST Paul's words up and IMAGINE that he's saying, “The FATHER PART OF God is the head of Christ.”  But that's not what Paul said, is it?

    If “GOD” is the head of Christ, then who is “GOD”?  Is Jesus “GOD”?  If so, then is Paul saying that Jesus is the head of Jesus?   ???

    jammin, let the scriptures teach YOU.  Don't try to teach THEM with all of your twists and turns, okay?

    #324638
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 16 2012,23:24)
    tnx sis kathi :)

    tuly Christ is God just like his father.

    Praise God! :)


    Well,

    That's exactly what Kathi believes, jammin! She believes Christ is ONE OF OUR TWO ALMIGHTY GODS – “just like his Father”.

    Are you now on board with her and the TWO Almighty God doctrine?

    #324640
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 16 2012,22:59)
    Good post jammin!


    Hmmmmmmmm……….

    Once again, you are telling jammin “Good post!”

    I'm still waiting for your reply in the other thread about WHY you thought his post was so good.  (I've been waiting for about 3 weeks, I think.  I've even bumped the question to you a second time.)

    But anyway, why not tell me what was so good about his post here?  This is what I got out of it:

    therefore translators are correct.  

    Okay?  WHICH translators are correct?  And WHY?  Is there a Greek RULE that says the “G” must be capped in English when referring to Jesus?  Do all translations cap the “G” in 1:1c?  Do you suppose the NWT is the ONLY one that doesn't cap the “G” in 1:1?  

    There are literally HUNDREDS of various translations that have been made throughout the years that DON'T say, “and the word was God”.  I could try to find the website again that I once saw, where a person had listed literally hundreds of them – NONE of which said, “the word was God”.

    So Kathi, tell me what was so good about jammin's post. Also, do you believe the Word WAS the very God he was WITH in 1:1? YES or NO?

    #324641
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2012,11:32)

    Now answer mine:

    Who is the head of man, according to 1 Cor 11:3?  Does man share the same nature as our head?


    Btw jammin,

    I'm done talking to you in this thread until you answer my question above.  I answered yours.  Now answer mine.

    #324642
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 16 2012,22:59)
    Those who can't confess that Jesus is also 'the God' certainly can't confess that Jesus is Jehovah, the Son, either. Christians all over the world confess these things!


    How many “Christians” all over the world confess TWO, completely seperate Almighty Gods, Kathi?

    Did you ask your pastor yet? Does HE believe in TWO Almghty Gods? How about the rest of your church? How about the Trinitarians that come to this site? Does Keith, Jack, jammin, Is 1:18, or any of the others confess TWO Almighty Gods?

    Or is it just you?

    #324652
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 16 2012,11:22)
    Have you ever seen a word that was flesh?


    Yes Gene, I have seen many SPOKESMEN in my life – all of them flesh human beings.  Jesus is called “the Word of God” because he is God's spokesman.  Just like Aaron was called “the mouth of Moses” because he was Moses' spokesman.

    Aaron wasn't a literal man-sized mouth, Gene.  Neither was Jesus a literal spoken word.

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 16 2012,11:22)
    Now who spoke to us “through” a son was it the son or God , who was doing the speaking (words) to us , was it the Son (Jesus) or God the Father.


    Jesus was speaking what his God and our God wanted him to speak to us.  God spoke to the Israelites through many different prophets in the past, right?  Was it the literal voice of God coming out of the prophets' mouths?  Or is “God spoke through the prophets” just one way of saying “God let the prophets know what they should say”?

    Gene, I've done my best to directly address your two points.  Now, address just one for me:

    John 1:14 says the Word BECAME flesh, and had the glory of Jesus.  It doesn't say the Word came to be IN someone who was already flesh.

    So, knowing that the Word BECAME flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of Jesus, who would you guess this particular Word (or “mouth”, or “spokesman”) was? (Hint: Who else would dwell on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son except for Jesus?)

    #324653
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 14 2012,12:05)
    NOW REFLECT ON THIS STATEMENT FROM PAUL!

    1Corinthians 11: 3 But I would have you know,

    Paul definitely wanted to reveal something extraordinary with the above address to his listeners!


    Yep. And he did. He revealed that man is the head of woman. Christ is the head of man. And God is the head of Christ.

    #324663
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2012,11:18)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 16 2012,22:01)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2012,11:32)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 14 2012,02:37)
    who is the head of the woman? are they not both HUMAN?


    Man is the head of woman.  And yes, men and women are both human beings who share the same nature.

    Now answer mine:

    Who is the head of man?  Does man share the same nature as our head?


    thanks for the answer.
    therefore it does not mean that if the father is the head of Christ, he is not God/

    nice answer boy


    Ah, but Paul didn't say THE FATHER is the head of Christ, did he?

    Instead, Paul said that “GOD” was the head of Christ.  So if the ONE we know as “GOD” is the head of Christ, that right there eliminates Jesus from BEING the “GOD” who is the head of him.  :)

    In YOUR mind, you TWIST Paul's words up and IMAGINE that he's saying, “The FATHER PART OF God is the head of Christ.”  But that's not what Paul said, is it?

    If “GOD” is the head of Christ, then who is “GOD”?  Is Jesus “GOD”?  If so, then is Paul saying that Jesus is the head of Jesus?   ???

    jammin, let the scriptures teach YOU.  Don't try to teach THEM with all of your twists and turns, okay?


    did the verse said Christ is not God?

    give me any single version boy LOL

    if you cant give one, stop fooling people.
    you cant fool those who know how to read.

    poor mike.

    your logic is non sense. the MAN is the head of the WOMAN, they are both human.

    God is the head of Christ. they are both God.

    it does not mean if God is the head of Christ, he is not God by nature. you cant read that in that verse. that is just your imagination.

    let the bible speak
    Philippians 2:6

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,[a]

    sorry boy but that is a word for word in the bible. Christ is God by nature

    #324664
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2012,11:43)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 16 2012,22:59)
    Those who can't confess that Jesus is also 'the God' certainly can't confess that Jesus is Jehovah, the Son, either. Christians all over the world confess these things!


    How many “Christians” all over the world confess TWO, completely seperate Almighty Gods, Kathi?

    Did you ask your pastor yet?  Does HE believe in TWO Almghty Gods?  How about the rest of your church?  How about the Trinitarians that come to this site?  Does Keith, Jack, jammin, Is 1:18, or any of the others confess TWO Almighty Gods?

    Or is it just you?


    do you have two natures mike??? LOL

    animal and human LOL

    how many times do we need to tell you that they have one nature and that is nature God phil 2.6

    the bible said that.
    ONE GOD!
    the father is God by nature
    the son is God y nature.
    one nature, GOD!

    if you are God, you are almighty bec that is your nature as God.

    if you are human, you are not almighty

    #324671
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Dec. 18 2012,12:28][/quote]

    Quote
    Yep.  And he did.  He revealed that man is the head of woman.  Christ is the head of man.  And God is the head of Christ.

    Mike,

    FIRST OF ALL THIS IS THE SCRIPTURE NOT WHAT YOU ARE STATING HERE READ AND SEE WHAT A MESS YOU DID WITH IT:

    But I would have you know, ( SOMETHING EXTRAORDINARY ???)

    that the head of

    EVERY (PLURAL)

    man is Christ; ( NO ARTICLE BEFORE CHRIST)

    and the head of

    THE ( WITH AN ARTICLE AND SINGULAR)WOMAN

    is the man;

    and the head of Christ is God.

    NOW COMPARE AND ANALYZE THAT SCRIPTURE WITH YOURS AND

    Tell me

    What did Paul reveal???

    What was extraordinary with THE MAN IS THE HEAD OF THE WOMAN??? , since as you said

    HE WAS SPEAKING REGARDING HIERARCHY???

    AND ALSO:

    Quote
    Absolutely. In earlier Biblical times, the man actually OWNED the woman as PROPERTY, Charles

    SO THAT KIND OF HIERARCHY  WAS THE MOST COMMON THING FOR THE JEWS ,AND THEY WERE LIVING WITH IT SINCE ADAM???

    WASN’T PAUL ,WHO WAS SELECTED BY GOD JESUS CHRIST TO ESTABLISH CHRISTIANITY,WAISTING TIME TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING WHICH WAS AS COMMON FOR THE JEWS AS BREAD AND WATER???

    NOW I WILL REPEAT MY QUESTION AGAIN:

    WHY THEN PAUL WAS TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING EXTRAORDINARY, WHILE  IN THE SAME TIME IT WASN’T AT ALL ESTRAORDINARY???

    WHY PAUL USED THE HIERARCHY AND USED THE WORD HEAD, THE MOST COMMON THING FOR THE JEWS WHO ARE STILL LIVING THAT HIERARCHY SINCE ADAM, TO REFER TO SOMETHING EXTRAORDINARY???

    WHAT IS THAT UNIQUE ELEMENT WHICH PAUL WAS REFERRING TO WHICH DEFINITELY WAS EXTRAORDINARY AND HE USED THE WORD HEAD AND THE HIERARCHY TO MAKE THEM AWARE THAT THEY HAVE TO CHANGE THAT HIERARCHY???

    NOW MIKE I AM SURE THAT I AM CLEAR ENOUGH NOT FOR YOU ONLY BUT WHOEVER IS ON HEAVEN NET TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #324672
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Dec. 18 2012,11:43][/quote]

    Quote
    How many “Christians” all over the world confess TWO, completely seperate Almighty Gods, Kathi?

    Mike,

    THE TRUE CHRISTIANS:

    THOSE WHO BELIEVE THAT THE

    FATHER IS ALMIGHTY GOD ONLY SPIRIT. MYSTERY,HIDDEN, UNKNOWN NOT TO BE SEEN FOR EVER AND EVER!!!

    THE SON IS THE ONLY VISIBLE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD TO BE SEEN SINCE HE GLORIFIED WITH A UNIQUE SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER,BY ALL SPIRITUAL CREATURES, AND ALSO TO ALL CARNAL CREATURES WHOM HE IS READY TO REVEAL HIMSELF TO!!!

    IT WILL REMAIN SO TILL THE FATHER SERVES THE SON AND MAKE CHRIST'S ENEMIES HIS FOOTSTOOL,AND THE FATHER WILL BE

    ALL IN ALL

    IN HIS SON'S KINGDOM

    IN JESUS UNIQUE MYSTICAL BODY

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #324689
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike……….I have addressed them, with the exception of this, in John 1:14 notice the text where it says, (“and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father”,) that was added to the original text by a “trinitarian translator: who is a Preexistences as you are>

    Many scriptures are tweaked to make it appear like Jesus was A God or demigod or angel. Mike you have to remember Trinitarians are Preexistences to. But facts are Jesus was a ordinary 100% Pure human being who came into existence at his Prophesied berth on this earth, at his appointed time.

    God who is “a” SPIRIT was (IN) the FLESH MAN JESUS, MIKE Just as he can also be in each of us also By that SAME Spirit (intellect) Given the MAN . JESUS. When are you going to see that God was truly “IN” Jesus and DOING His Work “through” the Human Flesh man Jesus?

    The words of God were produced by the Spirit of God Mike and it never became Flesh not at anytime because a Spirt is not Flesh Mike but it can indwell flesh just as Jesus said “the Father (who is God) was “IN” him.” Just believe that Mike and you will say Like Thomas …”MY Lord “AND” My GOD. it was not a Little god mike but the real GOD the completer fulness was Present (IN) Jesus and even spoke directly to us at time through Jesus' Mouth, as i have shown here many times.

    Mike God and HIS Words are one and the same thing, no matter whose Mouth they come from. Those Words “ARE SPIRIT” and they ARE LIFE, according to Jesus. WE are also washed or cleansed by the word of God it says.  Scripture also say GOD Gives   His Glory to no man but Jesus a Man gave his glory to us the same glory he has, God would never do that.  

    Mike we are called alongside Jesus, not under his feet or to grovel at him. We are brothers and sister of Jesus we must overcome Just the way he did , what would he have to overcome if he preexisted his berth on this earth? It is completely out of Character of God to Morph anyone a pass him of or disguise him as a human being .

    No Mike he made a second Adam and Brought him into existence Just as he did Adam a Pure HUMAN BEING from Human Beings. from the roots of Jesse and King David. No Morphing at all Mike Just another Human Being who he Perfected and Glorified and raised from the dead Just as he can with all of Us too. There is no difference between Jesus and Us Mike not one shred of difference with regard to his humanity and ours.

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………gene

    #324720
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Hi Gene,

    We are already discussing this in detail in the “Beginning” thread, so I'll be very brief here:

    Gene, do you accept the scriptural FACT that “the Word BECAME flesh”?  YES or NO?

    We can move on from there, after I have your direct and honest answer.

    #324721
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 17 2012,22:04)
    your logic is non sense. the MAN is the head of the WOMAN, they are both human.

    God is the head of Christ. they are both God.


    MY logic is nonsense?  ???

    Let's follow YOUR logic for a minute:

    the MAN is the head of the WOMAN, they are both human.

    God is the head of Christ. they are both God.

    If we are to follow YOUR logic all the way through, then the following must also be true:

    Christ is the head of man – they are both Christ.  And since Christ is God, then man is also God.

    Is that what you believe, jammin?  That man is God?

    Hmmmm……………….

    #324722
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 17 2012,22:06)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2012,11:43)

    How many “Christians” all over the world confess TWO, completely seperate Almighty Gods, Kathi?


    the bible said that.
    ONE GOD!


    Why are you telling this to ME, jammin?   ???

    I already agree with you that there exists only ONE ALMIGHTY GOD.

    You need to teach this lesson to Kathi – not to me.

    #324723
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 18 2012,00:00)
    But I would have you know, (SOMETHING EXTRAORDINARY)


    Charles,

    I want you to know that I had fish for dinner last night.

    Do the words “I would have you know” truly insist that something “EXTRAORDINARY” is about to be said?

    Of course not.

    I have YET to see any point you are trying to make. It may be because I rarely get to the bottom of any of your long posts. But then again, I already gave you fair warning that I'm only going to read the first sentence or two – despite how many sentences you write.

    Anyway, if you have point to make, then make it already………….(in a sentence or two).

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