John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 11,521 through 11,540 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #324389
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 14 2012,11:48)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 13 2012,00:09)
    who is the head of the woman? are they not both HUMAN>?


    And who, according to 1 Cor 11:3, is the head of man?  Does that mean human beings and “God the Son” have the same nature?

    Your question is a moot point.


    can you pls answer mine first then ill answer yours.

    are you afraid boy to answer mine? LOL

    ill repeat
    who is the head of the woman? are they not both HUMAN?

    #324404
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 13 2012,16:55)

    Quote
    LORD GOD said unto my human “Lord” (Jesus), sit on my right hand or side untill I (the LORD GOD) which is the inly GOd there is, make your enimies you foot stool.

    Gene,

    let's start:

    Read Acts 2: 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know most certainly, that God hath made BOTH LORD AND CHRIST, this same Jesus, whom you have crucified.

    SO JESUS IS BOTH:

    LORD AND CHRIST

    I AM NOT GOING TO DEFINE THE WORD LORD FOR YOU SINCE YOU ARE CAPABLE TO DO IT, BUT PLEASE DEFINE IT,AND POST IT IN ORDER TO CONFIRM THE TRUTH REGARDING WHAT JESUS CHRIST IS NOW!!!  

    PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS CHRIST

    CHARLES


    Carmel………..Notice was Jesus the God that made him Lord and Christ, NO he was not. There are many Lords but only one GOD, scriptures uses the terms Lord different way there is the LORD (YHWH) who is the ONLY TRUE GOD, and the is the Lord (ADON) who can be any human being you , me, or Jesus. When King David said the LORD (YHWH) said unto my LORD (Adon) sit on my right side ……> the word there used for Lord are two different word one could be anyone while the other could only be GOD himself.

    Hope this helps.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene

    #324409
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 14 2012,11:53)
    [/quote]
    Charles
    [quote=mikeboll64,Dec. 14 2012,11:53]


    Quote
    It's proof that our one and only God is the “boss” of Jesus, like Jesus is the “boss” of us.

    Mike,

    So:

    God is the boss of Jesus

    Jesus is the boss of man

    And man is the boss of the woman RIGHT???

    NOW REFLECT ON THIS STATEMENT FROM PAUL!

    1Corinthians 11: 3 But I would have you know,

    Paul definitely wanted to reveal something extraordinary with the above address to his listeners!

    So in view of this statement:

    TELL ME WHAT IS THAT PARTICULAR  ELEMENT WHICH PAUL WAS REFERRING TO, AND WHICH COMPELLED HIM TO  USE THE WORD HEAD SYMBOLICALLY,IN ORDER TO JUSTIFY HIMSELF WHO BY RIGHT SHOULD LEAD,COMMAND, OR AS YOU SAID BE THE BOSS OF ANOTHER WITHOUT PREJUDICE???

    Also do you really believe that the man is the boss of the woman ?

    Or Jesus is the boss only of the man?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #324414
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 15 2012,00:05)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 14 2012,11:53)
    [/quote]
    Charles
    [quote=mikeboll64,Dec. 14 2012,11:53]


    Quote
    It's proof that our one and only God is the “boss” of Jesus, like Jesus is the “boss” of us.

    Mike,

    So:

    God is the boss of Jesus

    Jesus is the boss of man

    And man is the boss of the woman RIGHT???

    NOW REFLECT ON THIS STATEMENT FROM PAUL!

    1Corinthians 11: 3 But I would have you know,

    Paul definitely wanted to reveal something extraordinary with the above address to his listeners!

    So in view of this statement:

    TELL ME WHAT IS THAT PARTICULAR  ELEMENT WHICH PAUL WAS REFERRING TO, AND WHICH COMPELLED HIM TO  USE THE WORD HEAD SYMBOLICALLY,IN ORDER TO JUSTIFY HIMSELF WHO BY RIGHT SHOULD LEAD,COMMAND, OR AS YOU SAID BE THE BOSS OF ANOTHER WITHOUT PREJUDICE???

    Also do you really believe that the man is the boss of the woman ?

    Or Jesus is the boss only of the man?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    CHARLES

    you got it wrong to many years in religion does that to you and you start to take their lies for truth ,

    I mean lies from religion ,

    the scriptures them self do not support your view ,Paul just says it the way it his ,stop seeing things were their is none

    #324438
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 14 2012,02:37)
    who is the head of the woman? are they not both HUMAN?


    Man is the head of woman. And yes, men and women are both human beings who share the same nature.

    Now answer mine:

    Who is the head of man? Does man share the same nature as our head?

    #324439
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 14 2012,02:36)
    if i will follow your argument, all god should be GOD

    therefore they are like the father


    Yes jammin,

    In the earliest Greek mss, all gods were called “THEOS” – in all capital letters.

    Later, in the “miniscules”, the copyists switched from all caps to all lower case letters.

    There exists no Greek mss where only certain letters were capped, while other letters were lower case.

    But NO, it doesn't mean all gods are like the Father.  You should learn a lesson from this, jammin.  It really doesn't matter which letters the English translators decide to capitalize or not.  The meaning is in the CONTEXT of the words – not in which letters are capped.

    This sometimes HURTS people like you.  It is because of the English translators who cap the “G” in John 1:1c, that YOU believe the Word was THE God.  Had the English translators left all the letters either capped or lower case, then you would have to decide from the CONTEXT of the verse what John meant in part c.

    Perhaps then, your MIND would think for itself, instead of being mislead by that capital “G”, and you would be able to see the OBVIOUS fact that our one God cannot possibly be WITH our one God.

    But that capped “G” is messing you all up.

    #324440
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 14 2012,12:05)
    1.  Also do you really believe that the man is the boss of the woman ?

    2.  Or Jesus is the boss only of the man?


    1.  Absolutely.  In earlier Biblical times, the man actually OWNED the woman as PROPERTY, Charles.  Read some of the other things Paul wrote about men versus woman, ie:  Woman should not speak in church, but remain silent, and then LATER ask their husbands any questions they might have had – when the two of them are in private.

    2.  Paul is listing a HIERARCHY, Charles.  Is God ONLY the boss of Jesus?  Is man ONLY the boss of woman?  (Or has he also been put over all the animals?)

    It is a hierarchy, listing the “chain of command”.  If I say, The General is the head of the Colonel, and the Colonel is the head of the Major, and the Major is the head of the Captain, am I saying that the General is ONLY the head of the Colonel, and NOT the head also of the Captain?

    Of course not.  I am listing a HIERARCHY, or “chain of command”.

    So NO, Jesus is not ONLY the boss of the man.  In Paul's chain of command, God is the highest, then Jesus, then man, then woman.  It doesn't mean God is not higher than man, nor does it mean Jesus is not higher than woman.

    #324468
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    Absolutely.  In earlier Biblical times, the man actually OWNED the woman as PROPERTY, Charles.  Read some of the other things Paul wrote about men versus woman, ie:  Woman should not speak in church, but remain silent, and then LATER ask their husbands any questions they might have had – when the two of them are in private.

    Mike,

    THANK YOU VERY MUCH,

    Do you think I never read that???

    Do you believe that I after being on heaven net FOR YEARS,I am that stupid to either ignore, or simply never read that chapter and not aware WHAT PAUL WAS EXPLAINING???

    BUT TO MAKE YOU AWARE THAT I AM WELL AWARE ABOUT ALL THAT,

    NOW REFLECT ON THIS STATEMENT FROM PAUL!

    1Corinthians 11: 3 BUT I WOULD HAVE YOU KNOW!!!,

    WHY DID PAUL ADDRESSED HIS LISTENERS IN THAT MODE???

    DO YOU BELIEVE THAT SINCE YOU STATED,AND I ALSO AWARE AND AGREE,THAT :

    Quote
    In earlier Biblical times, the man actually OWNED the woman as PROPERTY, Charles.

    PAUL NEEDED TO REMIND THEM ABOUT SOMETHING THAT IT WAS IN THEIR CULTURE, IN THEIR ACTUAL, AND EVERY DAY'S WAY OF LIFE???

    I DON'T BELIEVE THAT PAUL WHO WAS SELECTED BY GOD TO ESTABLISH CHRISTIANITY HE WASTED HIS MOST SPECIAL TIME TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING WHICH WAS AS COMMON AS  BREAD AND WATER FOR THEM!!!

    So in view of this statement:

    TELL ME WHAT IS THAT PARTICULAR  ELEMENT WHICH PAUL WAS REFERRING TO, AND WHICH COMPELLED HIM TO  USE THE WORD HEAD SYMBOLICALLY,IN ORDER TO JUSTIFY HIMSELF WHY, AS YOU RIGHTLY SAID(Paul is listing a HIERARCHY,)

    THEY LIVED IN THAT KIND OF HIERARCHY,

    IN ORDER WHO BY RIGHT SHOULD LEAD,COMMAND, OR AS YOU SAID BE THE BOSS OF ANOTHER WITHOUT PREJUDICE???

    Also TO DAY:

    IS THE MAN THE BOSS OF THE WOMAN???  NO!!!

    IS CHRIST THE BOSS OF THE MAN ONLY???  NO!!!

    IS GOD THE BOSS OF JESUS???  NO!!!

    CONSIDERRING THE FACT THAT JESUS THE ONLY TRUE VISIBLE GOD IS IN COMMAND OF THE ENTIRE UNIVERSES, AND ALSO THE FATHER SAID TO HIS  OWN CARNAL KIND OF GOD:

    SIT ON MY RIGHT HAND TILL I MAKE YOUR EMEMIES ( NOT MINE???)YOUR FOOTSTOOL ( NOT MINE, IN ORDER TO SERVE YOU FROM NOW ON TILL THE LAST DAY, SINCE YOU SERVED ME AND SUPPLIED ME WITH A FLESH BODY???)

    SO WAS PAUL TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING WHICH IN FACT WAS ALREADY OBSOLETE WHEN HE PRONOUNCED IT ???

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #324477
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 15 2012,11:58)

    Quote
    Absolutely.  In earlier Biblical times, the man actually OWNED the woman as PROPERTY, Charles.  Read some of the other things Paul wrote about men versus woman, ie:  Woman should not speak in church, but remain silent, and then LATER ask their husbands any questions they might have had – when the two of them are in private.

    Mike,

    THANK YOU VERY MUCH,

    Do you think I never read that???

    Do you believe that I after being on heaven net FOR YEARS,I am that stupid to either ignore, or simply never read that chapter and not aware WHAT PAUL WAS EXPLAINING???

    BUT TO MAKE YOU AWARE THAT I AM WELL AWARE ABOUT ALL THAT,

    NOW REFLECT ON THIS STATEMENT FROM PAUL!

    1Corinthians 11: 3 BUT I WOULD HAVE YOU KNOW!!!,

    WHY DID PAUL ADDRESSED HIS LISTENERS IN THAT MODE???

    DO YOU BELIEVE THAT SINCE YOU STATED,AND I ALSO AWARE AND AGREE,THAT :

    Quote
    In earlier Biblical times, the man actually OWNED the woman as PROPERTY, Charles.

    PAUL NEEDED TO REMIND THEM ABOUT SOMETHING THAT IT WAS IN THEIR CULTURE, IN THEIR ACTUAL, AND EVERY DAY'S WAY OF LIFE???

    I DON'T BELIEVE THAT PAUL WHO WAS SELECTED BY GOD TO ESTABLISH CHRISTIANITY HE WASTED HIS MOST SPECIAL TIME TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING WHICH WAS AS COMMON AS  BREAD AND WATER FOR THEM!!!

    So in view of this statement:

    TELL ME WHAT IS THAT PARTICULAR  ELEMENT WHICH PAUL WAS REFERRING TO, AND WHICH COMPELLED HIM TO  USE THE WORD HEAD SYMBOLICALLY,IN ORDER TO JUSTIFY HIMSELF WHY, AS YOU RIGHTLY SAID(Paul is listing a HIERARCHY,)

    THEY LIVED IN THAT KIND OF HIERARCHY,

    IN ORDER WHO BY RIGHT SHOULD LEAD,COMMAND, OR AS YOU SAID BE THE BOSS OF ANOTHER WITHOUT PREJUDICE???

    Also TO DAY:

    IS THE MAN THE BOSS OF THE WOMAN???  NO!!!

    IS CHRIST THE BOSS OF THE MAN ONLY???  NO!!!

    IS GOD THE BOSS OF JESUS???  NO!!!

    CONSIDERRING THE FACT THAT JESUS THE ONLY TRUE VISIBLE GOD IS IN COMMAND OF THE ENTIRE UNIVERSES, AND ALSO THE FATHER SAID TO HIS  OWN CARNAL KIND OF GOD:

    SIT ON MY RIGHT HAND TILL I MAKE YOUR EMEMIES ( NOT MINE???)YOUR FOOTSTOOL ( NOT MINE, IN ORDER TO SERVE YOU FROM NOW ON TILL THE LAST DAY, SINCE YOU SERVED ME AND SUPPLIED ME WITH A FLESH BODY???)

    SO WAS PAUL TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING WHICH IN FACT WAS ALREADY OBSOLETE WHEN HE PRONOUNCED IT ???

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    CHARLES

    Quote
    I DON'T BELIEVE THAT PAUL WHO WAS SELECTED BY GOD TO ESTABLISH CHRISTIANITY

    was that job not left for the false prophet ???

    #324486
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2012,11:41)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 14 2012,02:36)
    if i will follow your argument, all god should be GOD

    therefore they are like the father


    Yes jammin,

    In the earliest Greek mss, all gods were called “THEOS” – in all capital letters.

    Later, in the “miniscules”, the copyists switched from all caps to all lower case letters.

    There exists no Greek mss where only certain letters were capped, while other letters were lower case.

    But NO, it doesn't mean all gods are like the Father.  You should learn a lesson from this, jammin.  It really doesn't matter which letters the English translators decide to capitalize or not.  The meaning is in the CONTEXT of the words – not in which letters are capped.

    This sometimes HURTS people like you.  It is because of the English translators who cap the “G” in John 1:1c, that YOU believe the Word was THE God.  Had the English translators left all the letters either capped or lower case, then you would have to decide from the CONTEXT of the verse what John meant in part c.

    Perhaps then, your MIND would think for itself, instead of being mislead by that capital “G”, and you would be able to see the OBVIOUS fact that our one God cannot possibly be WITH our one God.

    But that capped “G” is messing you all up.


    Jammin………John 1:1 … Is simply saying that God and his Words are one and the Same thing , That sentence has nothing to do with Jesus at all, common sense would tell you John would have written the Name Jesus there if he meant Jesus. don't let these Preexistences trip you up. Just as John 1:1 reads is right God and his words are one and the same thing, Just as you and your word are also. Just that simple. IMO

    In the beginning it was God who Spoke the Words “let there be Light” it was no one else that said that in the beginning. Jesus was and is not God's Words evene if he quotes them to us , That still does not make him those words he quotes, God and His words are the same thing Just as you and yours are. Simple Don't get triped up by these wanta- be's . Jesus Said the words he was telling us “ARE” Spirit and he also said God was Spirit Now put that together God and His Words they are one and the same thing because all words are idenitified with Spirits.

    Jesus said try the Spirits to see if they are of God, So what are we trying when we try the Spiriti are they not Words a person say and does that not identify that persons Spirit. Your spirit and your word are one and the same thing, Just as God words and His spirit are one and the same thing.

    Don't get tripted up by these Trrinitarians and preexistence they are simply the blind leading the blind. IMO

    peace and lvoe to you and yours…………………………..gene

    #324531
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Gene Balthrop,Dec. 16 2012,02:13][/quote]

    Quote
    John 1:1 reads is right God and his words are one and the same thing, Just as you and your word are also. Just that simple. IMO

    Gene,

    Am I understanding right,when you stated in the above that :

    GOD AND HIS WORDS ARE ONE???

    IF SO:

    What is the difficulty that you accept that JESUS and the FATHER ARE ONE???

    SINCE:

    JESUS CONFIRMED THAT THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE AND THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING???

    If, according to the above statement from Jesus, the spirit gives life, it wasn't the SPIRIT OF THE FATHER WHICH WAS IN JESUS',obvious in HIS SOUL WHICH GAVE LIFE TO THE FLESH BODY OF JESUS, IN THE SAME WAY THAT THE SPIRIT IN YOUR SOUL GIVES LIFE TO YOUR FLESH BODY???

    AREN'T YOU ALSO ONE ,ALTHOUGH YOU ARE BOTH SOUL AND FLESH???

    ISN'T IT THE SOUL WHO DOES ALL GENERAL ACTIONS,AND MAKE USE OF YOUR FLESH BODY IN THE SAME WAY AS A PERSON MAKE USE OF A COSTUME,WHILE PARTICIPATING IN A COSTUME PARTY???

    IF  THE PERSON IS HIDDEN WHITHIN A COSTUME,THE ONLY WAY TO DISTIGUISH THAT PARTICULAR PERSON WOULD BE IN WHATEVER COSTUME HE IS MANIFESTING HIMSELF!!! NO???

    WHEN WE SEE A CLOWN IN A CIRCUS WE SIMPLY CALL HIM A CLOWN

    SO NO ONE WOULD BE IN THE POSSITION TO KNOW WHO ACTUALLY THAT PERSON IS!!! EXCEPT THOSE WHO KNOWS HIM. NO???

    THEREFORE THE CLOWN,AND THAT PERSON ARE ONE NO???

    WHATEVER THAT CLOWN SAY AND DO, HE WOULD ALWAYS BE ONE WITH THAT PERSON NO???

    SO IF GOD USED HIS SON'S SPIRIT AND TRANSFORMED HIM THROUGH CREATION, AFTER HE CREATED ALL BY HIM,INTO A FLESH COSTUME AND THE FATHER IS HIDDEN IN THAT FLESH COSTUME, AREN'T THEY ALSO ONE???

    ISN'T IT REALLY WHAT JESUS MEANT WHEN HE SAID THAT THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING???

    ISN'T IT WHAT REALLY JESUS MEANT THAT THE HIDDEN SPIRIT OF THE FATHER  GIVES LIFE TO THE FLESH COSTUME OF THE SON???

    SO IF THE CLOWN COSTUME IS ONE WITH THAT PERSON HIDDEN IN IT,AND THAT PERSON HAPPENED TO BE YOU AND I DISCOVER THAT IT WAS YOU HIDDEN IN THAT COSTUME , AM I NOT RIGHT IF I CALL YOU

    A CLOWN

    WHENEVER I SEE YOU

    OR DO YOU PREFER THAT I CALL YOU

    GENE THE COWN

    OR EVEN BETTER STILL:

    GENE THE ONLY TRUE CLOWN IN RESPECT TO YOUR UNIQUE PERFECT WORK  ON STAGE NO???

    THERFORE

    IN THE SAME WAY I CAN CALL JESUS GOD

    OR  JESUS THE GOD

    OR EVEN BETTER STILL:

    JESUS THE ONLY TRUE GOD IN RESPECT TO HIS UNIQUE PERFECT WORK ON EARTH NO???

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #324540
    barley
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Feb. 01 2012,14:46)
    anyone from the anti christ group willing to answer this topic?


    What no trinitarians replying to your post?

    Don't you mean who and/or what is the word?

    Scripture is God's word.

    God is the word

    Jesus Christ is the word.

    To the extent we love God by living according to God's word, we are the word.

    barley

    #324550
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 15 2012,09:13)
    common sense would tell you John would have written the Name Jesus there if he meant Jesus.


    Gene,

    Did John write “Jesus” in Rev 19:13? NO. That shoots your point down, so there's really no need for you to ever make this point again, is there?

    In fact, MANY scriptures, in the OT and the NT speak ABOUT Jesus, without ever mentioning the name “Jesus”.

    Find a new argument, because this one's just not proving anything for you.

    Also, consider this fact from John 1:14……….WHOEVER is the Word in 1:1 is the same person who became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of JESUS!.

    Gene, who ELSE ever dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son?

    See? John really DID tell us the Word was Jesus. But you have to read the whole chapter (WITHOUT adding your own words into it) to see it.

    #324551
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Charles,

    I didn't see anything in your latest post that I didn't already address in the previous one.

    #324558
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Dec. 17 2012,03:04][/quote]

    Quote
    I didn't see anything in your latest post that I didn't already address in the previous one.

    Mike,

    I'm afraid you didn't quite understand my question!

    Read it again and reflect what I was talking about!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #324563
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike …..All this dancing around the true issue. Answer me this one question if you can.

    Have you ever seen a word that was flesh?, if you cant answer that simple question then there is no point even discussing this matter with you.

    Point two, if God the Father was (in) Jesus as he said he was then who was speaking (through) him. What does this mean to you, but in these last days has (spoken) to us (through) a son. Now who spoke to us “through” a son was it the son or God , who was doing the[B] speaking (words) to us , was it the Son (Jesus) or God the Father.

    Can you simply answer these simple questions plainly and simply without beating around the bush trying to invent all kinds of different meanings to these simple questions?

    Peace and love to you and yours………………….gene

    #324565
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel………Jesus gave up his will to the Fathers will so in that sense they are one , just as if you were to give up your will to God the Fathers will you would be one also. When Jesus said him and the. Father were one he did not mean one and that same person, but one in agreement . If Jesus was the same being as the Father then how could he be his Son also. That my friend is an impossibility .

    This may help you Carmel, it is a major problem in religion, and that is understanding what a Spirit is, a spirit is not a person it is what is IN a person. Spirits come in types and kinds, like clean and unclean and these spirit effect our thinking and they can be removed or added to us, none of that makes them living souls they simply effect the souls they are in, when we die these spirit leave our bodies ( souls ) and our souls corrupt in the graves and we cease to exit any longer, and unless God regenerates a new body (soul) and adds spirit back into them we are gone for ever.

    Jesus is not a spirit he is a living soul with spirit in him just as we are and those spirits are what influences him just as the spirits in us influence us also. Jesus now has the seven spirit of God in him but that does not make him the spirits that are in him. Jesus is a man God is not a man scripture say.

    Understanding what spirit is is a Hugh problem with religion spirits come in all kinds and types and effect us all, but none of that makes a soul because to be a soul,requires a Separate body of its own. As it says unto each he gives it a body of its own. What makes us unique is not the spirits in us because that can always be changed, but what makes us unique living souls with personalities given to us by God. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene

    #324568
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    That my friend is an impossibility

    Gene,

    FOR YOU AND FOR ME YES, BUT FOR GOD IS NOT!!!

    God the Father could only abide in his own genuine substance:

    God, therefore as I said out of His own Spirit Substance emanated a Spirit which for us it is understood as a SON.

    But for the Father is His own same Spirit.

    READ:

    Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory,

    and the figure of his substance,

    and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high.

    So it is clear that the Father IS ALSO THE SON AND VISE VERSA is functioning in

    HIS OWN BRIGHTNESS,

    IN HIS OWN SUBSTANCE,

    HOLDING ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER ,

    AND MAKING PURGATION OF SINS,THROUGH JESUS,

    WHO SITS NEXT TO HIM,AS:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST.

    BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH.

    BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON, THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!

    SO: Through this same Spirit He created all, and the end result was Jesus' flesh substance, but it is actually the Father's Spirit in Flesh form. just flesh nothing else. THEN THE FATHER'S SPIRIT ABIDED IN JESUS' FLESH BODY, AND THE FATHER FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME HAD A FORM.

    BEFORE HE WAS FORMLESS, ONLY SPIRIT. THROUGH JESUS' SPIRIT IN  FLESH SUBSTANCE HE BECAME MAN.

    JUST LIKE YOUR FLESH SUBSTANCE AND MINE.

    THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THAT WE ORIGINATED FROM AN EVIL SPIRIT DARKNESS, LUCIFER, AND JESUS'FLESH ORIGINATED FROM A RIGHTEOUS SPIRIT, THE LIGHT, THE FATHER.

    THIS LIGHT FROM THE FATHER ABIDED HIDDEN IN DARKNESS FOR MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF YEARS TILL TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO BOTH SPIRITS WERE BORN IN THE FLESH BODY OF JESUS.

    ISAIAH 45:15 Verily thou art a HIDDEN GOD, the God of Israel the saviour

    John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend

    Isaiah 45: I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

    45:14…………….. and they shall worship thee, and shall make supplication to thee: only IN THEE IS GOD,( IN JESUS) and there is no God besides thee.( IN FLESH)

    45:15 Verily thou art a HIDDEN GOD, the God of Israel the saviour.  

    ON THE CROSS THE FATHER IN JESUS JUSTIFIED HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS AND ELIMINATED DARKNESS SATAN ONCE AND FOR ALL,FROM OUR CREATION!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #324570
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 17 2012,03:07)

    Quote
    That my friend is an impossibility

    Gene,

    FOR YOU AND FOR ME YES, BUT FOR GOD IS NOT!!!

    God the Father could only abide in his own genuine substance:

    God, therefore as I said out of His own Spirit Substance emanated a Spirit which for us it is understood as a SON.

    But for the Father is His own same Spirit.

    READ:

    Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory,

    and the figure of his substance,

    and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high.

    So it is clear that the Father IS ALSO THE SON AND VISE VERSA is functioning in

    HIS OWN BRIGHTNESS,

    IN HIS OWN SUBSTANCE,

    HOLDING ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER ,

    AND MAKING PURGATION OF SINS,THROUGH JESUS,

    WHO SITS NEXT TO HIM,AS:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST.

    BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH.

    BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON, THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!

    SO: Through this same Spirit He created all, and the end result was Jesus' flesh substance, but it is actually the Father's Spirit in Flesh form. just flesh nothing else. THEN THE FATHER'S SPIRIT ABIDED IN JESUS' FLESH BODY, AND THE FATHER FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME HAD A FORM.

    BEFORE HE WAS FORMLESS, ONLY SPIRIT. THROUGH JESUS' SPIRIT IN  FLESH SUBSTANCE HE BECAME MAN.

    JUST LIKE YOUR FLESH SUBSTANCE AND MINE.

    THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THAT WE ORIGINATED FROM AN EVIL SPIRIT DARKNESS, LUCIFER, AND JESUS'FLESH ORIGINATED FROM A RIGHTEOUS SPIRIT, THE LIGHT, THE FATHER.

    THIS LIGHT FROM THE FATHER ABIDED HIDDEN IN DARKNESS FOR MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF YEARS TILL TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO BOTH SPIRITS WERE BORN IN THE FLESH BODY OF JESUS.

    ISAIAH 45:15 Verily thou art a HIDDEN GOD, the God of Israel the saviour

    John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend

    Isaiah 45: I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

    45:14…………….. and they shall worship thee, and shall make supplication to thee: only IN THEE IS GOD,( IN JESUS) and there is no God besides thee.( IN FLESH)

    45:15 Verily thou art a HIDDEN GOD, the God of Israel the saviour.  

    ON THE CROSS THE FATHER IN JESUS JUSTIFIED HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS AND ELIMINATED DARKNESS SATAN ONCE AND FOR ALL,FROM OUR CREATION!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    CHARLES

    Quote
    ON THE CROSS THE FATHER IN JESUS JUSTIFIED HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS AND ELIMINATED DARKNESS SATAN ONCE AND FOR ALL,FROM OUR CREATION!!!

    this is new to me could you elaborate a little more ????

    1)ON THE CROSS THE FATHER IN JESUS JUSTIFIED HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ….?

    2)ELIMINATED DARKNESS SATAN ONCE AND FOR ALL…?

    3)FROM OUR CREATION…?

    for clarification

    #324578
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel………Jesus gave up his will to the Fathers will so in that sense they are one , just as if you were to give up your will to God the Fathers will you would be one also. When Jesus said him and the. Father were one he did not mean one and that same person, but one in agreement . If Jesus was the same being as the Father then how could he be his Son also. That my friend is an impossibility .

    This may help you Carmel, it is a major problem in religion, and that is understanding what a Spirit is, a spirit is not a person it is what is IN a person. Spirits come in types and kinds, like clean and unclean and these spirit effect our thinking and they can be removed or added to us, none of that makes them living souls they simply effect the souls they are in, when we die these spirit leave our bodies ( souls ) and our souls corrupt in the graves and we cease to exit any longer, and unless God regenerates a new body (soul) and adds spirit back into them we are gone for ever.

    Jesus is not a spirit he is a living soul with spirit in him just as we are and those spirits are what influences him just as the spirits in us influence us also. Jesus now has the seven spirit of God in him but that does not make him the spirits that are in him. Jesus is a man God is not a man scripture say.

    Understanding what spirit is is a Hugh problem with religion spirits come in all kinds and types and effect us all, but none of that makes a soul because to be a soul,requires a Separate body of its own. As it says unto each he gives it a body of its own. What makes us unique is not the spirits in us because that can always be changed, but what makes us unique living souls with personalities given to us by God. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene

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