John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 11,461 through 11,480 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #323048
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    What?  Did Charles really say that?  ???

    Edj,

    READ MY POST

    THEN ASK ME!!!

    BUT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THROUGH SCRIPTURES WHER DID GOD PERFORMED JUSTICE IN THE TRUTH!!!

    ALSO JESUS CONFIRMED BEFORE HE WAS BAPTIZED:

    Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to

    FULFILL ALL JUSTICE.

    Then he suffered him

    WASN'T ALL JUSTICE  FULFILLED IN THE OT???

    What is with you in the other thread of John 1:5:7

    I am still waiting for your reply!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #323049
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 01 2012,14:50)
    GOD THE FATHER WHO IS A SPIRIT WAS IN JESUS WHO IS FLESH. OK???

    SO THE SPIRIT (GOD)WAS IN THE FLESH.( JESUS)OK???

    OR PROPERLY STILL

    GOD IN FLESH OK???

    WHAT'S WRONG WITH :

    GOD IN FLESH


    There is a big difference between God being IN flesh, and that flesh person BEING God.

    God can also be in any one of us, but that will never make any of us “God in Flesh”.

    It's all in the way you word it, Charles. We agree that God was IN Jesus, doing the works. We don't agree that makes Jesus the God who was IN him.

    #323054
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=carmel,Dec. 01 2012,17:06][/quote]

    Quote
    WHO is that God you speak of?  And who is the Son of that God?  

    Mike,

    In that manifesto, which I only used  the above in order to make you read all my post, I stated :

    Now TO CARRY ON DISCUSSING HEBREWS 1 let’s analyze the word “JUSTICE”!!!

    So I was only interested in Hebrews 1 to prove that JESUS IS GOD BOTH AS SPIRIT AND AS FLESH.

    peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #323057
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Okay? ???

    Post a verse or two in Hebrews 1 that you think says Jesus is God both as Spirit and flesh.

    I know Heb 1:2 says that GOD spoke to us THROUGH His Son. This speaks of TWO, Charles – one of whom spoke through the other.

    1:2 also says that GOD created all things THROUGH Jesus. Again, this speaks of TWO – one who created, and one through whom the creation was accomplished.

    Tertullian, the “Father of the Trinity”, once wrote:

    He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.

    Can you argue against that logic, Charles?

    #323129
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2012,12:30)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 30 2012,02:31)
    what i know mike is ONE GOD refers to the unity.


    So then Jesus is the Son of the unity?

    jammin, this is silly.  It is abundantly clear that you WANT the scriptures to say Jesus is the Son of “the Father PART of the Godhead”.  But that's not what they say.  They say he is the Son of the Most High GOD – not just “the Father part of” the Most High God.

    Listen and learn:

    There is but ONE Most High God, jammin.  Jesus either IS that God, or he is the Son of that God.  Let the scriptures teach you which one is correct.

    And never forget on your scriptural journey that our God is also the God of Jesus.  Our BROTHER Jesus has given us the right to be SONS of God.

    Get it?  BROTHERS to Jesus, and SONS to God.  Now………. do you suppose that you'll ever be a BROTHER to God Almighty?


    jesus is the son of God

    that God is the father

    if you are a son of MAN, you are MAN by nature also mike.

    dont you have any common sense boy? LOL

    now, can we read in the bible that the son is GOD?

    of course

    phil 2.6

    though he was GOD

    study hard boy LOL

    #323131
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 01 2012,04:08)

    Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 29 2012,12:36)
    Hi Jammin,

    “The Father(God) that dwelleth in me(Jesus),
    he(God) doth the works.” (John 14:10)

    The divine nature of Jesus did not make him “God”,
    and neither will it make us “God”; though
    we will become one with them.

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    ED j…………Rigth on brother. God is a SPIRIT and can “INDWELL” anyone he choses to but that would never make that person a God even if God's Spirit was in him or her. There is ONLY ONE GOD WHO IS A SPIRIT. According to Jesus. He can pour himself which is his Spirit (intellect) into us all.

    Just as it says in Joel He (God) shall pour forth of his Spirit (intellect) upon “ALL” Flesh”>  But none of that makes those who receive His Spirit a God, they just have the “MIND” of God because of the Spirit “IN” them and that holds true with Jesus also.

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene


    you also do not know english boy.

    ye might be partakers of the divine nature is not the same as you will become God by nature.

    i thought you are using your brains. i think you should take vitamins

    #323167
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 02 2012,08:02)

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 01 2012,14:50)
    GOD THE FATHER WHO IS A SPIRIT WAS IN JESUS WHO IS FLESH. OK???

    SO THE SPIRIT (GOD)WAS IN THE FLESH.( JESUS)OK???

    OR PROPERLY STILL

    GOD IN FLESH OK???

    WHAT'S WRONG WITH :

    GOD IN FLESH


    There is a big difference between God being IN flesh, and that flesh person BEING God.

    God can also be in any one of us, but that will never make any of us “God in Flesh”.

    It's all in the way you word it, Charles.  We agree that God was IN Jesus, doing the works.  We don't agree that makes Jesus the God who was IN him.


    Quote
    We don't agree that makes Jesus the God who was IN him.

    Mike,

    I respect your mentality.

    BUT JESUS STATED THAT THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING.

    THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE TO THE FLESH ACCORDINGLY.

    SO THE FLESH IS ONLY A TEMPORARY COSTUME,AND WHAT INSIDE THE COSTUME COUNTS.

    JESUS FLESH WAS A TEMPORARY COSTUME ON EARTH WHICH HIDED GOD'S IDENTITY, AND ALSO ESTABLISHED HIS CARNAL IDENTITY ON EARTH.

    LIKE A CLOWN IN A SIRCUS.

    THE COSTUME HIDES THE ACTUAL PERSON,BUT ESTABLISHES HIM AS A CLOWN.

    scripture confirms this:

    Isaiah 45:15 Verily thou art a hidden God, the God of Israel the saviour.

    SO ALMIGHTY GOD WAS HIDDEN IN JESUS' COSTUME MADE IN FLESH.AND THE COSTUME ESTABLISHED HIM AS THE SAVIOUR

    SO IT IS NOT JESUS (FLESH)WHAT COUNTS,IT WHAT'S INSIDE JESUS!!!

    SO IF YOU AGREE THAT GOD WAS IN JESUS:

    THERFORE JESUS IS GOD.

    AND FOR HUMANS,SINCE THEY CAN NEVER SEE GOD THE FATHER SINCE HE IS A SPIRIT,

    THEY MUST ACCEPT JESUS

    AS GOD IN FLESH.

    GOD IN A COSTUME!!!

    NOW JESUS THROUGH HIS DEATH UNITED BOTH HIS COSTUME AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

    AND BECAME THE TRUE GOD,AND HIS COSTUME.

    THE TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #323169
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 02 2012,08:01)

    Quote
    What?  Did Charles really say that?  ???

    Edj,

    READ MY POST

    THEN ASK ME!!!

    BUT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THROUGH SCRIPTURES WHER DID GOD PERFORMED JUSTICE IN THE TRUTH!!!

    ALSO JESUS CONFIRMED BEFORE HE WAS BAPTIZED:

    Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to

    FULFILL ALL JUSTICE.

    Then he suffered him

    WASN'T ALL JUSTICE  FULFILLED IN THE OT???

    What is with you in the other thread of John 1:5:7

    I am still waiting for your reply!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Hi Charles,

    Is this the thread that Mike quoted?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #323210
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 02 2012,18:23)

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 02 2012,08:01)

    Quote
    What?  Did Charles really say that?  ???

    Edj,

    READ MY POST

    THEN ASK ME!!!

    BUT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THROUGH SCRIPTURES WHER DID GOD PERFORMED JUSTICE IN THE TRUTH!!!

    ALSO JESUS CONFIRMED BEFORE HE WAS BAPTIZED:

    Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to

    FULFILL ALL JUSTICE.

    Then he suffered him

    WASN'T ALL JUSTICE  FULFILLED IN THE OT???

    What is with you in the other thread of John 1:5:7

    I am still waiting for your reply!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Hi Charles,

    Is this the thread that Mike quoted?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Quote
    Hi Charles,

    Is this the thread that Mike quoted?

    Edj,

    Yes.

    It is the second post in the previous page.

    What about the other thread regarding John 1:5:7

    #323247
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 03 2012,02:47)
    Edj,

    Yes.

    It is the second post in the previous page.

    What about the other thread regarding John 1:5:7


    Hi Charles,

    OK, thanks.

    Which thread do you mean?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #323325
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 03 2012,09:31)

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 03 2012,02:47)
    Edj,

    Yes.

    It is the second post in the previous page.

    What about the other thread regarding John 1:5:7


    Hi Charles,

    OK, thanks.

    Which thread do you mean?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Edj,

    go back two pages

    #323326
    carmel
    Participant

    Edj,

    The thread is under the title of:

    John 1:5:7

    #323327
    carmel
    Participant

    Edj,

    SORRY,

    1 JOHN 5:7

    #323341
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Dec. 02 2012,08:26][/quote]

    Quote
    Post a verse or two in Hebrews 1 that you think says Jesus is God both as Spirit and flesh.

    Mike,

    Verification cannot be established by writing one verse from a whole chapter.

    It is a must that one should consider the context of the chapter, and the aim of its writing.

    Also you yourself are not ready to accept every VERSE , or WORD scripture supplies!!!

    You wrote:

    Quote
    I know Heb 1:2 says that GOD spoke to us THROUGH His Son.  This speaks of TWO, Charles – one of whom spoke through the other.

    In respect to the above, Paul STATED MORE THEN WHAT YOU POSTED , IN THAT SAME SENTENCE TO PROVE HOW AND WHAT GOD DID IN JESUS , read again:

    HEBREWS 1:2 In these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom He  hath appointed

    HEIR OF ALL THINGS,

    by whom also He  made the world.

    notice Mike, in Hebrews 1:2  you didn't include the last part of the sentence which is the most important IN RELATION to what Paul SPOKE ABOUT , AND MEANT .

    YOU SIMPLY LEFT OUT:
     

    HEIR OF ALL THINGS,

    You accepted that God spoke to us through His Son,

    ALTHOUGH GOD DIDN’T SPEAK TO US THROUGH JESUS’ MOUTH ONLY,BUT ALSO IN EVERY ACTION HE DID!!!

    in order to prove that there are two person, but you never accepted that His Son, inherited ALL THINGS.

    SO IF JESUS INHERTED ALL THINGS ,

    HE, THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT TRANSFORMED THROUGH CREATION INTO A UNIQUE CARNAL SUBSTANCE, ALSO INHERITED THE TITLE,AND ALL THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD HIS FATHER,THEREFORE GLORIFIED AS HIS GOD SINCE HE BECAME MAN.

    IT IS IMPORTANT THAT JESUS,SINCE HE BECAME MAN,CALLS  THE FATHER,

    HIS FATHER AND  HIS GOD,IN ORDER TO MAKE US AWARE THAT  HE ,THE FATHER,IS ALSO  OUR FATHER  AND  OUR GOD,

    BUT ONLY THROUGH:

    JESUS .

    JESUS IS OUR FATHER,AND OUR GOD!!! SINCE HE BECAME MAN!!!

    AND ONLY THROUGH THAT SYSTEM WE REACH THE SPIRITUAL FATHER, SINCE WE ARE CARNAL,AND THE FATHER ISN’T

    WE AS GENTILES IN THE OT. TIMES, WERE NOT CALCULATED AS HIS PEOPLE,

    NOT EVEN A PEOPLE,

    NEVER MIND HIS PEOPLE.WE WERE THE DEVILS IN FLESH.

    READ:

    1 Peter 2: 9 But you are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you

    OUT OF DARKNESS

    into his marvellous light: 10 Who in time past

    WERE NOT A PEOPLE:  

    SO OUT OF DARKNESS,

    WERE NOT A PEOPLE,

    THEREFORE:

    DEVILS IN FLESH

    but are now the people of God. Who had not obtained mercy; but now have obtained mercy.

    SO THE FATHER REMAINED A SPIRIT BEING AS HE STILL IS TILL THE LAST DAY!!!

    THE REASON THAT THERE ARE ONE THRONE FOR GOD THE FATHER AS A SPIRIT, CANNOT BE SEEN BY HIS ANGELS EVEN NOW.

    AND ONE THRONE FOR GOD HIS SON GLORIFIED THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT IN HIM,VISIBLE TO BE SEEN BY ALL SPIRITUAL CREATURES, AT ALL TIMES ADORED, AND CARNAL CREATURES ON EARTH AS HE PLEASES.  

    PLUS HIS OWN UNIQUE ATTRIBUTES AS GLORIFIED MAN.

    THE FOCAL TARGET OF OUR CREATION AND BATTLE ON EARTH!!!

    SO  ALTHOUGH AS YOU SAID SCRIPTURE IS REFERING TO TWO PERSONS,IN THE SAME INSTANT THROUGH WHAT SCRIPTURE SAID, IT ALSO MADE IT CLEAR THAT

    THE TWO PERSONS MENTIONED,ARE UNIFIED AS ONE IN JESUS.

    GENESIS 2: 24For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

    SO , IT IS OF NO USE,OR RATHER  MISGUIDING, DISCUSSING ,A WORD,OR A SENTENCE WITHOUT TAKING IN CONSIDERATION THE WHOLE PARAGRAPH, OR CHAPTER.

    NOW READING HEREUNDER YOU WILL BE AWARE THAT PAUL IS REFERING TO BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON,WITHOUT BEING CLEAR ENOUGH REGARDING WHOM HE IS REFERING TO!

    Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high.

    So it is clear that the Father IS ALSO THE SON AND VISE VERSA is functioning in

    HIS OWN BRIGHTNESS,

    IN HIS OWN SUBSTANCE,

    HOLDING ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER ,

    AND MAKING PURGATION OF SINS,THROUGH JESUS,

    WHO SITS NEXT TO HIM,AS:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST.

    BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH.

    BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON, THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #323363
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 02 2012,08:02)

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 01 2012,14:50)
    GOD THE FATHER WHO IS A SPIRIT WAS IN JESUS WHO IS FLESH. OK???

    SO THE SPIRIT (GOD)WAS IN THE FLESH.( JESUS)OK???

    OR PROPERLY STILL

    GOD IN FLESH OK???

    WHAT'S WRONG WITH :

    GOD IN FLESH


    There is a big difference between God being IN flesh, and that flesh person BEING God.

    God can also be in any one of us, but that will never make any of us “God in Flesh”.

    It's all in the way you word it, Charles.  We agree that God was IN Jesus, doing the works.  We don't agree that makes Jesus the God who was IN him.


    Mike……….Very Good at least you do see and understand the God the Father was indeed in Jesus. And Just like us it does not make him a God of anykind.

    Scriture says Christ in us the hope of Glory, That does not mean Jesus in us but the Anointing Spirit in us is the hope of glory

    It all falls in place when we come to understand what a Spirit is Mike. A spirit is not a Person it is what is in a person. God was in the FLESH of Jesus by the Christos or Anointing and he (God) spoke to us through him Jesus put his “will to death” and did the will of God who [B] indwelt him.

    Are we in agreement on these thing Mike?

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene

    #323406
    jammin
    Participant

    gene,

    do you believe that if you are in the form of MAN, you are MAN? yes or no?

    #323410
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 02 2012,00:55)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 02 2012,08:02)
    There is a big difference between God being IN flesh, and that flesh person BEING God.

    God can also be in any one of us, but that will never make any of us “God in Flesh”.

    It's all in the way you word it, Charles.  We agree that God was IN Jesus, doing the works.  We don't agree that makes Jesus the God who was IN him.


    Mike,

    I respect your mentality.

    BUT JESUS STATED THAT THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING.

    SO THE FLESH IS ONLY A TEMPORARY COSTUME,AND WHAT INSIDE THE COSTUME COUNTS.

    JESUS FLESH WAS A TEMPORARY COSTUME ON EARTH WHICH HIDED GOD'S IDENTITY, AND ALSO ESTABLISHED HIS CARNAL IDENTITY ON EARTH.


    Charles,

    All the things you said in your post could also be said of us too, then. Because it was to US that Jesus said, “The flesh counts for nothing”. And it is in US that God also dwells, along with His Son and Servant Jesus Christ.

    So apply everything you said about why God being in Jesus makes Jesus God in Flesh, and applies those same reasonings to US. That would make all of US “God in Flesh” as well.

    #323413
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 03 2012,00:12)
    YOU SIMPLY LEFT OUT:

    HEIR OF ALL THINGS,


    Okay, add that part into my post as well. :)

    Now we have THREE things that speak of Two:
    1. One created all things THROUGH the other.
    2. One spoke to us THROUGH the other.
    3. One has inherited all things FROM the other.

    #323415
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 03 2012,08:39)
    Are we in agreement on these thing Mike?


    We agree that God was in Jesus, doing the works. And we agree that God spoke through His servant Jesus Christ. :)

    #323416
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 01 2012,21:19)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2012,12:30)

    There is but ONE Most High God, jammin.  Jesus either IS that God, or he is the Son of that God.  Let the scriptures teach you which one is correct.

    And never forget on your scriptural journey that our God is also the God of Jesus.  Our BROTHER Jesus has given us the right to be SONS of God.

    Get it?  BROTHERS to Jesus, and SONS to God.  Now………. do you suppose that you'll ever be a BROTHER to God Almighty?


    jesus is the son of God

    that God is the father


    I agree with both of those statements, jammin.

    Do you agree with Paul that for us, the Father IS our one God?  Do you agree with Jesus that he and we both have the same God?

    (Also, please answer the bolded part in the quote box above.)

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