John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 11,081 through 11,100 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #318025
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=SimplyForgiven,Oct. 27 2012,09:57][/quote]

    Quote
    Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
    How can someone living be a child of hell?

    Simplyforgiven,

    First of all humans are DEAD!!!

    They are destined to HELL!!!

    We are alive ONLY if we believe in JESUS CHRIST BECAUSE HE IS LIFE EVERLASTING!!!

    HUMANS ARE BORN ALIVE ONLY IN THE FLESH BECAUSE SPIRITUALLY ( THEIR SOULS) WOULD BE ALREADY CONDEMNED!!!

    Read:

    John 5:24 Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed

    FROM DEATH TO LIFE !!!

    1 John  3:14  We know that we have passed

    FROM DEATH TO LIFE,

    because we love the brethren. He that loveth not,

    ABIDETH IN DEATH.

    So keep in mind that if love is not in your heart, YOU ARE DEFINITELY DEAD, EVEN IF YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN.

    NOW!

    WHAT IS A PROSELYTE???

    STRONG’S CONCORDANCE:

    prosélutos: one who has arrived (at Judaism), a proselyte

    Definition: (lit: that has come to), a proselyte, that is a non-Jew, who has been circumcised and has adopted the Jews' religion.

    SO AS YOU CAN READ,  

    ALL HUMANS BEFORE JESUS,HAD TO BE CONVERTED BY CIRCUMCISION IN ORDER TO BECOME ONE OF GOD’S PEOPLE.

    SO A PROSELYTE, WAS BORN A DEVIL IN FLESH, A HUMAN BEING WITH SATAN’S SPIRIT IN HIS SOUL.

    SO SATAN OWNED EVER HUMAN BEING FROM ADAM ONWARDS THROUGH THE SIN OF ADAM, AND SINCE HE WAS THE OWNER OF MANKIND, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE SELECT, HE HAD EVERY RIGHT TO TAKE THEM TO HELL AS HIS PROPERTY.

    EVEN THE SELECT HAD TO GO TO A KIND OF HELL, WHICH WE USED TO CALL : LIMBO!!! BUT INFACT IT WAS A PLACE ALSO WITHIN THE REGION OF HELL.

    THROUGH BAPTIZM WE BECAME THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST AND SINCE WE BELIEVE IN JESUS, AS SOON AS WE DIE, MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL  WOULD TAKE US UP TO FACE JESUS AND BE JUDGED  IN ORDER TO BE SAVED.
    THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS IS ALREADY JUDGED,OBVIOUS THEY ARE STILL HOLDING SATAN’S SPIRIT THE WRATH OF GOD WITHIN THEIR SOULS

    John 3:36 He that believeth in the Son, hath life everlasting; but he that believeth not the Son,

    SHALL NOT SEE LIFE;

    but the  THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDETH on him.

    SATAN IS THE WRATH OF GOD!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #318033
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    Jammin,

    Actually your grosley mistaken.
    Love is not above God, Love is just an attribute of God which is part of Him, in all He does.  
    God is sovereign.

    Quote

    JESUS GOD MAN, REFUSED THE CUP, BUT HIS FATHER,WHO IS LOVE SAID:
    DIE SO DEATH WOULD BE HOLY AND THROUGH IT
    I THE FATHER, YOU THE SON, THROUGH MY HOLY SPIRIT  GLORIFY
    GOD COULD HAVE DESTROYED LUCIFER INSTANATLY!!!
    BUT LOVE SAID NO!!!
    LOVE SAID!!!
    CONVERT LUCIFER!!!
    GET LUCIFER BACK TO YOU IT IS MORE DIFFICULT!!!
    KILLING LUCIFER AND CREATE ANOTHER ANGEL IS THE SIMPLEST WAY OUT AND YOU SOLVE NOTHING THE OTHER ANGEL WOULD DO THE SAME
    CONVERTING LUCIFER IT TAKES TRILLIONS OF YEARS!!!
    IT TAKES PATIENCE, MEEKNESS, HUMILITY, AND THE MOST IMPORTANT MERCY!!!


    LOL  :D  wow, I never heard of something so riduculous. I'll break it down for you.

    Quote
    JESUS GOD MAN, REFUSED THE CUP, BUT HIS FATHER,WHO IS LOVE SAID:
    DIE SO DEATH WOULD BE HOLY AND THROUGH IT
    I THE FATHER, YOU THE SON, THROUGH MY HOLY SPIRIT  GLORIFY


    No scripture to prove this.  You must made that up.

    Quote
    GOD COULD HAVE DESTROYED LUCIFER INSTANATLY!!!
    BUT LOVE SAID NO!!!


    LOL wHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE FOR THIS? LOL
    oh wow, that is hiliarious.

    Quote
    GET LUCIFER BACK TO YOU IT IS MORE DIFFICULT!!!
    KILLING LUCIFER AND CREATE ANOTHER ANGEL IS THE SIMPLEST WAY OUT AND YOU SOLVE NOTHING THE OTHER ANGEL WOULD DO THE SAME


    lol, where is the scripture for this?
    Not found in the bible.

    Quote

    CONVERTING LUCIFER IT TAKES TRILLIONS OF YEARS!!!
    IT TAKES PATIENCE, MEEKNESS, HUMILITY, AND THE MOST IMPORTANT MERCY!!!


    More stupidity. This is not in the scripture.

    Quote
    OTHERWISE LUCIFER NEVER GETS BACK!!!
    I ASKED YOU IF GOD HAS A FREE WILL, AND I WANTED FROM YOU ONLY
    YES!!!
    NOW I ASK YOU:


    God can do whatever He see fits, thats why he is the sovereign God.  
    Lucifer doesn't have free will.

    Deuce
    [QUOTE][/QUOTE]

    #318035
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    Quote
    ]SATAN WAS ONLY AWARE THAT JESUS WAS GOD IN FLESH ,

    WHEN JESUS WAS TAKEN BY SATAN DOWN TO HELL UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT HE WAS A CRIMINAL AND WAS STUNNED TO SE JESUS IN

    FLESH TESTED BY THE HOTTEST FIRE.[/


    This statement is false.

    Quote
    SO AS SOON AS JESUS HUMBLY,AND MEEKLY, WAS TAKEN BY THE POWER OF DEATH ,SATAN, INTO HIS ABODE, HELL, LIKE HE DID TO ALL JESUS’ BRETHREN SINCE ADAM, TO JUSTIFY JESUS AS THE MESSIAH,
    HE WAS STUNNED TO SEE JESUS CHRIST HIS OWN CREATOR IN FULL POWER OF GOD THROUH THE HOLY SPIRIT INTO THE HOTTEST FIRE OF HELL,
    That was the ambtion of Satan that he would achieve manhood not withstanding the fact that his kingdom is hell in fire, and be like the MOST HIGH!!!
    HE WOULD EVENTUALLY ACHIEVE IT BUT FOR NO USE!!!
    Now let's read scriptures


    Also false statements, there is not a biblical reference for this.  

    Stop making stuff up

    #318036
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 27 2012,14:19)
    [quote=Lightenup,Oct. 22 2012,16:45][/quote]

    Quote
    [QUOTE] ALL THAT MY FATHER HAS ARE MINE!!!  

    Lightenup,

    I do my best to be brief:

    Genesis 3:17…………..cursed is the earth in thy work;……………….

    As you can read, although the earth, was perfect, through Adam’s labour, through his evil contaminated energy, obvious since Satan’s spirit was in his soul, IT WOULD BE CURSED.

    SO HE WORKED THE LAND , HE RECEIVED FRUIT OUT OF IT AND BOTH THE EARTH AND ITS FRUIT WERE CURSED ,EVIL, AND THE ONLY FOOD WHICH WAS SPIRITUALLY GOOD FOR ADAM WERE THE HERBS.

    Genesis 4: 5 But to Cain and hisofferings he had no respect: and Cain was exceedingly angry, and his countenance fell.

    Notice Cain offered HIS OFFERINGS BUT GOD HAD NO RESPECT, obvious IT WAS CURSED, AND CAIN SHOULD HAVE GIVEN ONLY HERBS TO GOD.

    You might ask why all this??? What this has to do in respect to the context regarding  

    ALL THAT MY FATHER HAS ARE MINE!!!

    Patience please!!!

    Through this we became aware that from Adam onwards humans were CURSED, the land also became CURSED, and humans through their attributes could never achieve salvation. Human souls, Adam’s descendants were spiritually dead  through Satan’s spirit insertion in them.

    There was no way for humans to return to the Father. Not only that but they eventually became even more evil through that procedure!!!

    THORNS AND THISTLES SHALL IT BRINGS FORTH TO YOU

    So OUR LOVING GOD had the most meek, humble and loving solution which as we all know, HE LOWERED  HIMSELF AND BECAME MAN IN HIS SON JESUS CHRIST.

    THE REASON:

    ONCE JESUS BECAME MAN GOD, WHATEVER ADAM CURSED THROUGH HIS SIN, JESUS SANCTIFIED THROUGH HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS.

    ALL HUMAN ATTRIBUTES BECAME HOLY, GODLY IN JESUS. SINCE HE WAS BOTH GOD AND MAN.

    UNDERSTAND THIS IT IS VITAL.

    Since Jesus was divine, and was born, ALL BIRTHS BECAME SANCTIFIED , AND WHATEVER JESUS DID AS MAN BECAME HOLY, GODLY IN HIM.

    As soon as Jesus suffered, and died, all sufferings, pains and deaths became sanctified in HIM.GODLY

    Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting, until his enemies be made his footstool.

    14 For by one OBLATION  he hath perfected for ever them that are SANCTIFIED

    17 And their sins and iniquities I will remember no more.

    So Jesus stated first in:

    John16:14 He shall glorify me:

    for HE SHALL RECEIVE OF MINE ,…………..

    SO GOD RECEIVED ALL HUMAN ATTRIBUTES THROUGH JESUS CHRIST AND JESUS OUTOMATICALLY GLORIFIED HIMSELF IN HIS FATHER.

    THEN HE EMPHASIZED IT IN:

    15 All things that the Father hath are mine:said I, that he shall take of mine,…………….

    SO THIS IS A REFERENCE TO ALL HUMAN ATTRIBUTES WHICH THE FATHER RECEIVED THROUGH JESUS FIRST WHILE HE WALKED ON EARTH AS  MAN GOD,AND THEN WHEN HE DIED AND GLORIFIED WITH THE FATHER AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST.

    THEN AGAIN JESUS EMPHASIZED IT FOR THE THIRD TIME AND SAID TO HIS FATHER IN THE FOLLOWING CHAPTER:

    JOHN 17:10 And all my things are thine,

    ALL MY HUMAN ATTRIBUTES ARE YOURS, they ARE GODLY. Something which never occurred before, that a spirit being suffers, dies and all the rest.

    and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them

    and ALL  THE FATHER’S ATTRIBUTES  AS GOD, ARE MINE;

    and I AM GLORIFIED IN THEM.

    So Jesus confirmed that HE ,AS MAN GOD, GLORIFIED IN ALL THE THINGS HE DID WHILE ON EARTH THROUGH THE FATHER’S DIVINTY!!!

    SINCE THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER WAS IN JESUS’ SOUL.

    Before Jesus came on earth, God didn't have HUMAN ATTRIBUTES!! DIDN'T EVEN EXPERIENCED HUMAN ATTRIBUTES.

    THIS BECAUSE GOD IS HOLY AND ETERNAL,AND  HUMANS WERE EVIL ,AND MORTALS, AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

    From Jesus glorification the Father experiences all human attributes to the least detail,but

    IN JESUS CHRIST BECAUSE THE FATHER AS A SPIRIT ONLY IS NOT IN THE POSITION TO EXPERIENCE ANY MORTAL SINFUL HUMAN ATTRIBUTES.

    Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting,

    UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL.

    CLEAR ENOUGH NO???

    So God the Father as a spirit cannot experience the evil attributes of man. But when all God's enemies are CONVERTED,AND ALL EVIL IS ERADICATED,THEN THE FATHER WOULD BE ALL IN ALL.

    ALL HIS MYRIAD SPIRITS IN ALL HIS CARNAL CREATURES AS ONE MYSTICAL BODY OF GOD , ONE KINGDOM OF GOD.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Charles,
    Thanks for your explanation. I do not agree that any of those contexts speak of the Father getting human attributes. Sorry.

    #318038
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2012,19:01)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2012,21:05)
    Mike,
    The first 'God' is a word that is in contrast to 'servant.'

    God would mean 'a type of nature that would be served as God.'


    So then like this?

    6 Who, being in very nature someone that should be served as God,
      did not consider equality with God (the Father) something to be used to his own advantage;


    Mike,
    Well, close but more like this:

    Who, being in very nature God…
    (someone who has the nature of God and should be treated as God but did not insist on being treated according to how He should be treated, but emptied Himself and took on the nature of a servant instead and served those who should be serving Him)

    #318040
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 28 2012,01:19)
    SATAN WAS ONLY AWARE THAT JESUS WAS GOD IN FLESH


    Satan was aware that Jesus was the SON OF God – not God Himself.

    He even offered Jesus the kingdoms of the world, which were given to him, if Jesus did an act of worship to him.

    Does this sound sensible if Satan knew Jesus was the Almighty God who created him and GAVE him those kingdoms in the first place? ???

    #318044
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 28 2012,08:27)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2012,10:58)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 27 2012,09:39)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2012,09:32)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 26 2012,00:11)
    monoegenes also means only son.


    No it doesn't, jammin.

    You should ask your friend Kathi about it and get the facts before you make yourself look even more foolish than you already do.

    Also, this was the question I asked.  Perhaps you didn't see it in the last post………………  ???

    jammin, scripturally speaking, is Jesus the SON OF this ONE Almighty God?  YES or NO?


    i know greek mike. how about you?


    Apparently better than you do.  Tell you what………  why not just post your lexicon that explains how the Greek word “monogenes” means “only son”.  Or ask Kathi like I've been telling you, for she understands the Greek language fairly well.

    Most likely you are confused again, jammin.  If I pointed at my SON and said, “This is my only begotten (monogenes)”, then the word would be REFERRING TO my only son…. but it still wouldn't MEAN “only son”.  Is this what you're talking about when you say the word MEANS “only son”?

    Oh, and when will you answer the bolded question?  (Will I have to ask it 12 times before you answer – like my last question?  :)  )


    then ill post a lexicon mike.

    Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results

    Result of search for “monogenes”:

    3439. monogenes mon-og-en-ace' from 3441 and 1096; only-born, i.e. sole:–only (begotten, child).

    did you see that mike??? did you see ONLY CHILD????

    i told you to study greek mike before talking to me.
    you do not know what you are saying and you are a  big shame to your fellow false teachers. LOL

    that is why scholars translated monogenes theos as GOD THE ONLY SON in john 1.18 bec monogenes also means only child.

    poor mike.
    you talk too much.

    btw
    where is your version of FORM OF HIS GOD in phil 2.6 and uniquely generated in john 1.18??

    you are still not giving me any single version boy LOL


    jammin,

    You are a trip.  :)  Don't you see those PARENTHESIS in that lexicon?  They mean “as in”.  Ie:  “monogenes” means “only” – AS IN an only begotten anything, or AS IN an only child.  Also, notice that Strong uses the word “child”, not “SON”.

    What if I refer to my DAUGTHER as my “monogenes”?  Then does the word “monogenes” start to MEAN “daughter”?   ???

    Come on man!  Stop sniffing the mosquito coil and get your head screwed on straight for once.

    I can refer to my son as my monogenes, but the “son” part is IMPLIED because the listener must already KNOW my child is a son.  The word “monogenes”, in and of itself, doesn't MEAN “son”, jammin.  Nor would it MEAN “daughter” if my only begotten was a girl.

    As it turns out, you have once again proved that YOU'RE the one who doesn't know what he's saying, and YOU'RE the one who's a big shame to his fellow false teachers.

    Now, listen up closely sonny:  The words in John 1:18 are EITHER “monogenes theos”, OR “monogenes huios”.

    That means that John 1:18 speaks of EITHER an only begotten god, OR an only begotten son.

    There is no way for 1:18 to be speaking of BOTH.  Therefore, a translation of “God the only Son” is a travesty, and perverts the scriptures.

    Kathi, please, for the love of God, would you educate your less intelligent friend on this matter?

    And jammin, please answer the bolded question in the quote box above.  If you answer that ONE simple question HONESTLY, you will be able to see that Jesus is not our ONE Almighty God.  (In fact, I suspect that is why you HAVEN'T answered it yet – because you feel better living in your comfortable LIE than in the truth of the scriptures.  Satan has blinded your mind to the truth.)

    #318045
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 28 2012,08:29)
    who is that almighty God you are referring to mike?


    Well jammin,

    You already said that we only have ONE Almighty God, right?  And we know from scriptures that our ONE Almighty God has a Son named Jesus, right?

    So you tell me who our ONE Almighty God is.  (Hint: He is the ONE who has a Son named Jesus.)

    #318046
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2012,13:05)
    Mike,
    Well, close but more like this:

    Who, being in very nature God…
    (someone who has the nature of God and should be treated as God………….)


    And who or what do you mean by your two uses of the word “God” in your parenthesis?

    #318047
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 24 2012,23:55)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    I too would like to see the scriptural support of many of the things you promote on this site.

    Mike,

    IN THE NAME OF JESUS:

    WITH PLEASURE!

    BUT FIRST YOU MUST ASK EACH ONE SPECIFICLY AND SEPEARATELY!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Okay my friend.  :)

    Let's start with this one:

    Quote
    LIGHTENUP,

    THERE'S ONLY ONE SPIRIT OF GOD.

    The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, have ONLY one will of GOD!!!

    John 6:38
    For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

    Charles, this shows that Jesus has a DIFFERENT will than the One who sent him.  How do you explain that?

    #318059
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Oct. 29 2012,06:13] [/quote]

    Quote
    He even offered Jesus the kingdoms of the world, which were given to him, if Jesus did an act of worship to him.

    Mike,

    No,

    He was never aware of it.

    Satan asked him :

    If you were the son of God.

    If he knew he wouldn't have tempted Him!!!

    The Holy Spirit purposely DROVE Jesus to go into the desert, and He left Jesus ON hIS OWN to proof that

    HE WAS AN ORDINARY MAN WITHOUT THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    SATAN BELIEVED THAT IT WAS NEVER POSSIBLE THAT A MAN WOULD BE BORN SINLESS IN THOSE CONDITIONS.

    Jeremiah:32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the

    GOD OF ALL FLESH :

    IS THERE ANY THING TOO HARD FOR ME?

    That scripture is there purposely to confirm what Satan believed!!!

    He wouldn't have entered Judas to kill Jesus.

    KILLING THE MESSIAH MEANT THE END OF SATAN'S REIGN.

    and God kept him perplexed!!!

    The pharisees confirmed it.

    They were Satan's voice.

    Paul confirmed it ,and said that if they knew they wouldn't have  killed him.

    1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,

    A WISDOM WHICH IS HIDDEN,

    which God ordained before the world, unto our glory :

    8 Which none of the PRINCESS OF THIS WORLD KNEW;

    WHO ARE THE PRINCESS OF THE WORLD???

    for if they had known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory.

    I WISH YOU DON'T TAKE SCRIPTURES ONLY LITERALLY.

    Mark 8:And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the ancients and by the high priests, and the scribes, and be killed:

    AND AFTER THREE DAYS RISE AGAIN.

    32 And he spoke the word openly. And Peter taking him, BEGAN TO FEBUKE HIM.

    33 Who turning about and seeing his disciples, threatened Peter, saying:

    Go behind me, Satan, because thou savorest

    NOT THE THINGS THAT ARE OF GOD BUT THAT ARE OF MEN.

    THIS SCRIPTURE IS A PROOF THAT SATAN WAS NOT AWARE THAT JESUS WAS THE MESSIAH!!!

    SATAN USED PETER TO REBUKE WHAT JESUS SAID.

    Matthew  27:40And saying: Vah, thou that destroyest the temple of God, and in three days dost rebuild it: save thy own self:

    IF YOU BE THE SON OF GOD, COME DOWN FROM THE CROSS.

    AGAIN SCRIPTURE TO PROOF THAT SATAN IS NOT AWARE, HE WAS ALL THE WAY PERPLEXED!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #318095
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2012,14:48)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2012,13:05)
    Mike,
    Well, close but more like this:

    Who, being in very nature God…
    (someone who has the nature of God and should be treated as God………….)


    And who or what do you mean by your two uses of the word “God” in your parenthesis?


    God nature is the nature of one who is worshiped.
    Second 'God' means one who is worshiped.

    #318097
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    Kathi, please, for the love of God, would you educate your less intelligent friend on this matter?

    Why are you having such a hissy fit about this Mike? If someone is an only begotten at the Father's side, and monogenes was written in the masculine sense, a son would be a natural implication. It is written in the masculine, and singular.

    See here in Hebrews 11:
    By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;

    'Only begotten son' is how the translators translated monogenes. The word 'huios' is not there in the Greek.

    So, 'monogenes theos' could very well be God the only Son or God the only begotten Son. Context tells you that 'God, the only begotten Son' was not the same as the Father.

    I do agree with you that it should more simply say 'the only begotten God' for a simpler understanding but technically it isn't wrong to add the word 'son' also, as was done in Heb 11. The fact that Jesus is the only begotten Son is well established in the gospels.

    #318100
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Lightenup,Oct. 29 2012,05:54][/quote]

    Quote
    I do not agree that any of those contexts speak of the Father getting human attributes.

    Lightenup,

    As soon as Jesus became man God,

    Both the attributes of man and God were in Jesus!

    HE WAS FULLY GOD AND FULLY MAN!!!

    Therefore,:

    JESUS MANIFESTED GOD'S ATTRIBUTES IN HIS FORM AS MAN!

    FROM THE OTHER HAND SINCE THE FATHER  AS A SPIRIT,COULDN'T EXPERIENCE HUMAN ATTRIBUTES,

    THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT IN JESUS HE EXPERIENCED ALL WHAT JESUS EZPERIENCED AS MAN.

    SO GOD SAVED US THROUGH SUFFERING,AND DEATH IN JESUS!! THROUGH JESUS, AND FOR JESUS.

    BUT GOD FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER EXPERIENCED HUMAN ATTRIBUTES IN JESUS CHRIST

    IT IS FUNDAMENTAL

    THAT' S WHY HE IS CONFIRMED THE TRUE GOD,NOT THAT HE WASN'T, BUT AS A SPIRIT HE WAS NOT IN THE TRUTH REGARDING HUMANS,SINCE THEY WERE VISIBLE.

    BUT THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.

    HE BECAME

    BOTH FLESH AND SPIRIT

    THAT'S WHY JESUS IS IN COMMAND OF BOTH HEAVEN SPIRIT AND EARTH FLESH ONLY HE IS IN THAT STATE,BUT THE FATHER AGAIN THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ALSO IN FULL COMMAND!!!

    SINCE THE SON AND THE FATEHR ARE ONE

    THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!

    THE FATHER IS ONLY A SPIRIT BEING!!!

    AND ON THE LAST THEY HE WOULD BE ALL IN ALL!!!

    HE CREATED HIS SON'S KINGDOM TO ACQUIRE THE MYSTICAL BODY,
    NOT THAT HE NEEDED IT,

    BUT FOR THE LOVE OF HIS CREATURES.

    CHARITY AND LOVE

    peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #318119
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2012,06:40)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 28 2012,08:29)
    who is that almighty God you are referring to mike?


    Well jammin,

    You already said that we only have ONE Almighty God, right?  And we know from scriptures that our ONE Almighty God has a Son named Jesus, right?

    So you tell me who our ONE Almighty God is.  (Hint:  He is the ONE who has a Son named Jesus.)


    the son is God and he is almighty just like his father.
    they are both GOD by nature. and the nature of GOD is almighty.

    now answer my question.
    who is that GOD almighty you are referring to?

    #318120
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2012,06:31)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 28 2012,08:27)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2012,10:58)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 27 2012,09:39)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2012,09:32)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 26 2012,00:11)
    monoegenes also means only son.


    No it doesn't, jammin.

    You should ask your friend Kathi about it and get the facts before you make yourself look even more foolish than you already do.

    Also, this was the question I asked.  Perhaps you didn't see it in the last post………………  ???

    jammin, scripturally speaking, is Jesus the SON OF this ONE Almighty God?  YES or NO?


    i know greek mike. how about you?


    Apparently better than you do.  Tell you what………  why not just post your lexicon that explains how the Greek word “monogenes” means “only son”.  Or ask Kathi like I've been telling you, for she understands the Greek language fairly well.

    Most likely you are confused again, jammin.  If I pointed at my SON and said, “This is my only begotten (monogenes)”, then the word would be REFERRING TO my only son…. but it still wouldn't MEAN “only son”.  Is this what you're talking about when you say the word MEANS “only son”?

    Oh, and when will you answer the bolded question?  (Will I have to ask it 12 times before you answer – like my last question?  :)  )


    then ill post a lexicon mike.

    Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results

    Result of search for “monogenes”:

    3439. monogenes mon-og-en-ace' from 3441 and 1096; only-born, i.e. sole:–only (begotten, child).

    did you see that mike??? did you see ONLY CHILD????

    i told you to study greek mike before talking to me.
    you do not know what you are saying and you are a  big shame to your fellow false teachers. LOL

    that is why scholars translated monogenes theos as GOD THE ONLY SON in john 1.18 bec monogenes also means only child.

    poor mike.
    you talk too much.

    btw
    where is your version of FORM OF HIS GOD in phil 2.6 and uniquely generated in john 1.18??

    you are still not giving me any single version boy LOL


    jammin,

    You are a trip.  :)  Don't you see those PARENTHESIS in that lexicon?  They mean “as in”.  Ie:  “monogenes” means “only” – AS IN an only begotten anything, or AS IN an only child.  Also, notice that Strong uses the word “child”, not “SON”.

    What if I refer to my DAUGTHER as my “monogenes”?  Then does the word “monogenes” start to MEAN “daughter”?   ???

    Come on man!  Stop sniffing the mosquito coil and get your head screwed on straight for once.

    I can refer to my son as my monogenes, but the “son” part is IMPLIED because the listener must already KNOW my child is a son.  The word “monogenes”, in and of itself, doesn't MEAN “son”, jammin.  Nor would it MEAN “daughter” if my only begotten was a girl.

    As it turns out, you have once again proved that YOU'RE the one who doesn't know what he's saying, and YOU'RE the one who's a big shame to his fellow false teachers.

    Now, listen up closely sonny:  The words in John 1:18 are EITHER “monogenes theos”, OR “monogenes huios”.

    That means that John 1:18 speaks of EITHER an only begotten god, OR an only begotten son.

    There is no way for 1:18 to be speaking of BOTH.  Therefore, a translation of “God the only Son” is a travesty, and perverts the scriptures.

    Kathi, please, for the love of God, would you educate your less intelligent friend on this matter?

    And jammin, please answer the bolded question in the quote box above.  If you answer that ONE simple question HONESTLY, you will be able to see that Jesus is not our ONE Almighty God.  (In fact, I suspect that is why you HAVEN'T answered it yet – because you feel better living in your comfortable LIE than in the truth of the scriptures.  Satan has blinded your mind to the truth.)


    do you know greek than those scholars who translated john 1.18 as GOD THE ONLY SON?

    John 1:18

    Common English Bible (CEB)

    18 No one has ever seen God.
    God the only Son,
    who is at the Father’s side,
    has made God known.

    you do not know greek mike. you are just pretending mike. LOL
    if the bible says GOD THE ONLY SON in john 1.18 then you should believe that boy.

    btw, im still waiting for your version FORM OF HIS GOD in phil 2.6 and uniquely generated in john 1.18

    will you give me version or not??

    dont you have dignity mike? you are telling FORM OF HIS GOD and UNIQUELY GENERATED but YOU CANT READ THOSE IN THE BIBLE.
    shame on you boy

    #318193
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Oct. 29 2012,06:49][/quote]

    Quote
    For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.[/color]

    [size=5]Charles, this shows that Jesus has a DIFFERENT will than the One who sent him.  How do you explain that?  

    Mike,

    Yes as you said:

    Jesus has a different will.

    NOW READ HEREUNDER AND REFLECT THAT ALTHOUGH JESUS DID A DIFFERENT WILL WHICH WAS HIS, IN FACT IT WAS THE SAME OF THE FATHER:

    John 5:25 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and giveth life: so THE SON ALSO GIVETH LIFE TO WHOM HE WILL

    NOTICE JESUS GIVES LIFE :

    SO HERE YOU HAVE A CLEAR PICTURE THAT BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON ARE ONE

    SINCE THEY BOTH GIVE LIFE!!!

    CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT KIND OF LIFE THE FATHER GIVES???

    CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT KIND OF LIFE THE SON GIVES???

    SINCE AS YOU SAID JESUS HAD A DIFFERENT WILL???

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #318206
    terraricca
    Participant

    charles

    Quote
    SINCE THEY BOTH GIVE LIFE!!!

    CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT KIND OF LIFE THE FATHER GIVES???

    CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT KIND OF LIFE THE SON GIVES???

    SINCE AS YOU SAID JESUS HAD A DIFFERENT WILL???

    in my humble opinion you forgot to mention THAT THE SON RECEIVED HIS AUTHORITY FROM THE FATHER ;THIS MEAN THAT THE FATHER GIVE LIVE THROUGH HIS SON AND THE SON LOVE TO COMPLY WITH HIS FATHER WILL ,

    but this is your way ,to deceive i guess ???

    #318228
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 28 2012,16:13)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2012,06:13)
    He even offered Jesus the kingdoms of the world, which were given to him, if Jesus did an act of worship to him.

    Mike,

    No,

    He was never aware of it.

    Satan asked him :

    If you were the son of God.

    If he knew he wouldn't have tempted Him!!!


    Are you saying that Satan was unaware that “God Almighty, the Son” was standing right in front of him?

    Does that really seem reasonable to you, Charles?

    #318232
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Hebrews 11:17 NKJV ©
    By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

    Kathi,

    Do you see that the word “son” is in italics in the KJV, NKJV, and NASB?  That means the translators are ADDING the word “son” to the sentence because we ALREADY KNOW that Isaac was a male.  The italics PROVE that the Greek word, “monogenes”, doesn't actually MEAN “only begotten son”.  We can ASSUME “son” in this verse, because we know Issac was Abraham's son.  But the Greek word “monogenes” has NOTHING TO DO with that assumption.  The assumption is based on OTHER Biblical evidence.  We could NEVER derive “only begotten SON” from the word “monogenes”, in and of itself.

    I've already explained this to jammin in my last post, Kathi……….. so thanks for the scriptural SUPPORT of what I told him.  :)  The word “monogenes”, in and of itself, does NOT mean “only begotten son”.  Do YOU understand this, Kathi?  

    If the child Abraham was to sacrifice was a daughter, would the Greek word “monogenes” all of a sudden MEAN “only begotten daughter”?  YES or NO?

    Do you see what's going on here?  jammin is claiming that the Greek word “monogenes”, in and of itself, MEANS “only son“.  IS THAT TRUE, KATHI?  YES OR NO?

    What we KNOW about the matter is that the Greek word “monos” means “only”.  And we know that the suffix “genes” comes from the word “ginomai”, which means “generated”, “made”, “begotten”, etc.  Why do you guys wish to completely ignore the “genes” part?  Or worse yet, why do you wish to pretend “genes” means “son”?   ???

    You take a word that literally means “only generated”, and swap the “generated” part for “son”.   ???

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2012,23:50)
    So, 'monogenes theos' could very well be God the only Son or God the only begotten Son.


    Wrong.  The “mono(only)” part would apply to theos, not the non-existent huios.  The phrase “mongenes theos” could be translated as “only unique god”, or “only begotten god”, or “only generated god”.  Those words will NEVER add up to “God the only Son” – no matter how badly you guys WANT them to.

    Kathi, I came to you for help in teaching your friend some hard cold facts, so he could stop spouting things that made him sound stupid.  You have not only failed your friend in this effort, but have gone as far as to jump on his stupidity bandwagon.  ???

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2012,23:50)
    I do agree with you that it should more simply say 'the only begotten God'…………..


    Well, well…………….. a glimpse of sanity after all.  There is no such phrase as, “God the only Son” in all of the scriptures.  And there is NO WAY to come to this phrase from the words “monogenes theos”, or from the words “monogenes huios”.

    And the thing about 1:18 is that the words are EITHER “monogenes huios”, OR “monogenes theos” – depending on the manuscript used.  But there is NO Greek ms that has BOTH “theos” AND “huios” in 1:18.  Therefore, “God the only Son” is a travesty of translation, and is quite frankly, laughable.

    That phrase, like “Trinity” and “Godhead” before it, is nothing but the invention of men who have been blinded by the god of this age.  Support it if you want – but there is no way it is scriptural.

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