John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 11,101 through 11,120 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #318234
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2012,23:29)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2012,14:48)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2012,13:05)
    Mike,
    Well, close but more like this:

    Who, being in very nature God…
    (someone who has the nature of God and should be treated as God………….)


    And who or what do you mean by your two uses of the word “God” in your parenthesis?


    God nature is the nature of one who is worshiped.
    Second 'God' means one who is worshiped.


    Okay, so like this:

    Who, being in the form of God one who is worshiped, and should be treated as one who is worshiped, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

    Kathi, I believe you already acknowledged that the second “God” in that sentence refers to God Almighty, the PERSON.

    Doesn't it make more sense that Jesus was existing in the form of God Almighty the Person, but didn't consider equality with God Almighty the Person a thing to be grasped?

    Of course it does, as that is exactly what Paul was teaching us. Unlike you and jammin, Paul didn't consider “God” to be some kind of species, with different members – of which Jesus was one.

    Paul taught that Jesus' humility was such that, even though he was existing in the form of his own God (as a powerful spirit being), he didn't consider himself equal to his own God – like Satan did.

    Your understanding of this verse, and the explanation of that understanding, leave much to be desired. It is nothing more than your USUAL twistings of scriptures in your effort to FORCE them to teach things they don't really teach.

    The first “God” in that verse refers to the same thing (person) as the second “God” in that verse. The only other way around that common sense understanding is to claim Paul believed in “God” as a species, and Jesus had the nature of this species, because he was a member of that species. And that goes against EVERYTHING ELSE Paul taught about Jesus and his God – who also happens to be our God.

    Kathi, the God of Jesus is the God of us. This is scriptural, as Jesus himself says so.

    When will you believe this?

    #318235
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 29 2012,09:07)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2012,06:40)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 28 2012,08:29)
    who is that almighty God you are referring to mike?


    Well jammin,

    You already said that we only have ONE Almighty God, right?  And we know from scriptures that our ONE Almighty God has a Son named Jesus, right?

    So you tell me who our ONE Almighty God is.  (Hint:  He is the ONE who has a Son named Jesus.)


    the son is God and he is almighty just like his father.
    they are both GOD by nature. and the nature of GOD is almighty.

    now answer my question.
    who is that GOD almighty you are referring to?


    jammin,

    I believe my answer was clear in what I said above.  If we both believe in only ONE Almighty God, then I can only be talking about ONE when I say “Almighty God”, right?   ???

    My question to you is:  Does that ONE Almighty God that we both believe in have a SON named Jesus?  YES or NO?

    #318236
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 30 2012,01:12)
    Mike,

    Yes as you said: Jesus has a different will.


    Then you realize the error of what you previously posted, and have come to the truth of this matter?  That is great news, my friend.

    Now, does it make sense to you that “God Almighty on Earth” would have a DIFFERENT will than “God Almighty in Heaven”?  YES or NO?

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 30 2012,01:12)
    NOTICE JESUS GIVES LIFE :

    SO HERE YOU HAVE A CLEAR PICTURE THAT BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON ARE ONE

    SINCE THEY BOTH GIVE LIFE!!!


    Does that mean that any else who gave life in the scriptures was also God Almighty?  Or does this only apply in the case of Jesus?

    Also, notice:
    John 6:57
    Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

    The God OF Jesus (who happens also to be the God OF us) granted his holy servant to have life in him.  This is not a statement of EQUALITY, Charles, but a statement about One who is the Ultimate Lifegiver GRANTING the authority to give life to one of His SERVANTS.

    This Ultimate Lifegiver also granted some of His OTHER servants to give life in the scriptures.  And you'll notice from the NT that many of the things God GRANTED to His SERVANT Jesus Christ, were subsequently granted ALSO to the disciples who faithfully followed Jesus Christ.

    Now Charles, are they ALL God Almighty?  Or is Jesus the only servant OF God Almighty who is also the God he serves?  ???

    When you guys take scriptures that clearly speak of a Greater One GIVING something to His SERVANT, and try to twist it into some kind of equality between this Greater One and His SERVANT, it just baffles my mind. I can't help but wonder what spirit would lead an intelligent person to believe such nonsense.

    How can a sane mind take, “God GRANTED His SERVANT to have life in him”, and turn it into, “They are both EQUAL, because they can both give life!” ? ???

    It truly baffles my mind, Charles.

    #318257
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 29 2012,09:13)
    Mike,

    The Holy Spirit purposely DROVE Jesus to go into the desert, and He left Jesus ON hIS OWN to proof that

    HE WAS AN ORDINARY MAN WITHOUT THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    Peace and love in Jesus
    Charles


    Hi Charles, I take issue with two points you make here.

    1. Your use of the word “drove”  –  the Scriptures uses the word “led” here; not drove.

    You drive cattle from behind to force them to go where you want with a prod if necessary.
    But you lead a horse from the front with coaxing to go where you want.      …BIG difference.

    2. This verse indicates that the spirit did not leave Jesus alone as you are suggesting…

    “Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him,
     the same is he which baptizeth with the HolySpirit.” (John 1:33)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #318304
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=SimplyForgiven,Oct. 29 2012,05:30][/quote]

    Quote
     Love is not above God, Love is just an attribute of God which is part of Him, in all He does.  

    SIMPLYFORGIVEN,

    FIRST AND FORMOST:

    WITH EVERY RESPECT, READ AND  LEARN WHAT IT MEANS METAPHORICAL LANGUAGE.

    1.  Bread      

    “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger.” John 6:35

    2.  Light      

    “I am the light of the world; he who fallows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life.” John 8:12  

    3.  Gate    

    “I am the gate; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.” John 10:9

    4.  Good Shepherd    

    “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for His sheep.” John 10:11

    5.  Resurrection and Life      

    “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies.” John 11:25

    6.  Way, Truth, Life      

    “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.” John 14:6

    7.  True vine

    “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.” John 15:1  

    LET’S START:

    NOW:

    Read scriptures and be aware what God is!!!

    1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God;

    FOR GOD IS LOVE

    1 JOHN 4:16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.

    GOD IS LOVE ;

    and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

    SO SCRIPTURE IS CLEAR :

    GOD IS LOVE ITSELF.

    A SPIRIT OF LOVE!!! AND ALL GOD’S ATTRIBUTES ARE DERIVED THROUGH IT!!!

    MORE TO COME IN RESPONSE TO WHAT YOU CALLED  REDICILOUS

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #318335
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2012,05:51)

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 30 2012,01:12)
    Mike,

    Yes as you said: Jesus has a different will.


    Then you realize the error of what you previously posted, and have come to the truth of this matter?  That is great news, my friend.

    Now, does it make sense to you that “God Almighty on Earth” would have a DIFFERENT will than “God Almighty in Heaven”?  YES or NO?

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 30 2012,01:12)
    NOTICE JESUS GIVES LIFE :

    SO HERE YOU HAVE A CLEAR PICTURE THAT BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON ARE ONE

    SINCE THEY BOTH GIVE LIFE!!!


    Does that mean that any else who gave life in the scriptures was also God Almighty?  Or does this only apply in the case of Jesus?

    Also, notice:
    John 6:57
    Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

    The God OF Jesus (who happens also to be the God OF us) granted his holy servant to have life in him.  This is not a statement of EQUALITY, Charles, but a statement about One who is the Ultimate Lifegiver GRANTING the authority to give life to one of His SERVANTS.

    This Ultimate Lifegiver also granted some of His OTHER servants to give life in the scriptures.  And you'll notice from the NT that many of the things God GRANTED to His SERVANT Jesus Christ, were subsequently granted ALSO to the disciples who faithfully followed Jesus Christ.

    Now Charles, are they ALL God Almighty?  Or is Jesus the only servant OF God Almighty who is also the God he serves?  ???

    When you guys take scriptures that clearly speak of a Greater One GIVING something to His SERVANT, and try to twist it into some kind of equality between this Greater One and His SERVANT, it just baffles my mind.  I can't help but wonder what spirit would lead an intelligent person to believe such nonsense.

    How can a sane mind take, “God GRANTED His SERVANT to have life in him”, and turn it into, “They are both EQUAL, because they can both give life!” ?   ???  

    It truly baffles my mind, Charles.


    the nature of God is almighty. if you are GOD, you are almighty.

    now im asking you. who is that GOD you are referring to?

    btw pls answer also my pending questions.
    1. where is your version of FORM OF HIS GOD in phil 2.6
    2. where is your version of UNIQUELY GENERATED IN john 1.18

    im still waiting boy. be ashamed of yourself. if you say something, you must read it

    #318336
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2012,05:18)
    Hebrews 11:17 NKJV ©
    By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

    Kathi,

    Do you see that the word “son” is in italics in the KJV, NKJV, and NASB?  That means the translators are ADDING the word “son” to the sentence because we ALREADY KNOW that Isaac was a male.  The italics PROVE that the Greek word, “monogenes”, doesn't actually MEAN “only begotten son”.  We can ASSUME “son” in this verse, because we know Issac was Abraham's son.  But the Greek word “monogenes” has NOTHING TO DO with that assumption.  The assumption is based on OTHER Biblical evidence.  We could NEVER derive “only begotten SON” from the word “monogenes”, in and of itself.

    I've already explained this to jammin in my last post, Kathi……….. so thanks for the scriptural SUPPORT of what I told him.  :)  The word “monogenes”, in and of itself, does NOT mean “only begotten son”.  Do YOU understand this, Kathi?  

    If the child Abraham was to sacrifice was a daughter, would the Greek word “monogenes” all of a sudden MEAN “only begotten daughter”?  YES or NO?

    Do you see what's going on here?  jammin is claiming that the Greek word “monogenes”, in and of itself, MEANS “only son“.  IS THAT TRUE, KATHI?  YES OR NO?

    What we KNOW about the matter is that the Greek word “monos” means “only”.  And we know that the suffix “genes” comes from the word “ginomai”, which means “generated”, “made”, “begotten”, etc.  Why do you guys wish to completely ignore the “genes” part?  Or worse yet, why do you wish to pretend “genes” means “son”?   ???

    You take a word that literally means “only generated”, and swap the “generated” part for “son”.   ???

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2012,23:50)
    So, 'monogenes theos' could very well be God the only Son or God the only begotten Son.


    Wrong.  The “mono(only)” part would apply to theos, not the non-existent huios.  The phrase “mongenes theos” could be translated as “only unique god”, or “only begotten god”, or “only generated god”.  Those words will NEVER add up to “God the only Son” – no matter how badly you guys WANT them to.

    Kathi, I came to you for help in teaching your friend some hard cold facts, so he could stop spouting things that made him sound stupid.  You have not only failed your friend in this effort, but have gone as far as to jump on his stupidity bandwagon.  ???

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2012,23:50)
    I do agree with you that it should more simply say 'the only begotten God'…………..


    Well, well…………….. a glimpse of sanity after all.  There is no such phrase as, “God the only Son” in all of the scriptures.  And there is NO WAY to come to this phrase from the words “monogenes theos”, or from the words “monogenes huios”.

    And the thing about 1:18 is that the words are EITHER “monogenes huios”, OR “monogenes theos” – depending on the manuscript used.  But there is NO Greek ms that has BOTH “theos” AND “huios” in 1:18.  Therefore, “God the only Son” is a travesty of translation, and is quite frankly, laughable.

    That phrase, like “Trinity” and “Godhead” before it, is nothing but the invention of men who have been blinded by the god of this age.  Support it if you want – but there is no way it is scriptural.


    do you know greek better than those scholars who translated john 1.18 as GOD THE ONLY SON mike?
    yes or no?

    #318345
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2012,13:18)
    Hebrews 11:17 NKJV ©
    By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

    Kathi,

    Do you see that the word “son” is in italics in the KJV, NKJV, and NASB?  That means the translators are ADDING the word “son” to the sentence because we ALREADY KNOW that Isaac was a male.  The italics PROVE that the Greek word, “monogenes”, doesn't actually MEAN “only begotten son”.  We can ASSUME “son” in this verse, because we know Issac was Abraham's son.  But the Greek word “monogenes” has NOTHING TO DO with that assumption.  The assumption is based on OTHER Biblical evidence.  We could NEVER derive “only begotten SON” from the word “monogenes”, in and of itself.

    I've already explained this to jammin in my last post, Kathi……….. so thanks for the scriptural SUPPORT of what I told him.  :)  The word “monogenes”, in and of itself, does NOT mean “only begotten son”.  Do YOU understand this, Kathi?  

    If the child Abraham was to sacrifice was a daughter, would the Greek word “monogenes” all of a sudden MEAN “only begotten daughter”?  YES or NO?

    Do you see what's going on here?  jammin is claiming that the Greek word “monogenes”, in and of itself, MEANS “only son“.  IS THAT TRUE, KATHI?  YES OR NO?

    What we KNOW about the matter is that the Greek word “monos” means “only”.  And we know that the suffix “genes” comes from the word “ginomai”, which means “generated”, “made”, “begotten”, etc.  Why do you guys wish to completely ignore the “genes” part?  Or worse yet, why do you wish to pretend “genes” means “son”?   ???

    You take a word that literally means “only generated”, and swap the “generated” part for “son”.   ???

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2012,23:50)
    So, 'monogenes theos' could very well be God the only Son or God the only begotten Son.


    Wrong.  The “mono(only)” part would apply to theos, not the non-existent huios.  The phrase “mongenes theos” could be translated as “only unique god”, or “only begotten god”, or “only generated god”.  Those words will NEVER add up to “God the only Son” – no matter how badly you guys WANT them to.

    Kathi, I came to you for help in teaching your friend some hard cold facts, so he could stop spouting things that made him sound stupid.  You have not only failed your friend in this effort, but have gone as far as to jump on his stupidity bandwagon.  ???

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2012,23:50)
    I do agree with you that it should more simply say 'the only begotten God'…………..


    Well, well…………….. a glimpse of sanity after all.  There is no such phrase as, “God the only Son” in all of the scriptures.  And there is NO WAY to come to this phrase from the words “monogenes theos”, or from the words “monogenes huios”.

    And the thing about 1:18 is that the words are EITHER “monogenes huios”, OR “monogenes theos” – depending on the manuscript used.  But there is NO Greek ms that has BOTH “theos” AND “huios” in 1:18.  Therefore, “God the only Son” is a travesty of translation, and is quite frankly, laughable.

    That phrase, like “Trinity” and “Godhead” before it, is nothing but the invention of men who have been blinded by the god of this age.  Support it if you want – but there is no way it is scriptural.


    Mike,
    you said:

    Quote

    Do you see that the word “son” is in italics in the KJV, NKJV, and NASB? That means the translators are ADDING the word “son” to the sentence because we ALREADY KNOW that Isaac was a male. The italics PROVE that the Greek word, “monogenes”, doesn't actually MEAN “only begotten son”. We can ASSUME “son” in this verse, because we know Issac was Abraham's son.

    The translators are adding the word 'son' to John 1:18 because we ALREADY KNOW that Jesus was a male and a son.
    We can ASSUME 'son' in this verse, because we know Jesus was the Father's only begotten Son.

    So if you are going to go after jammin about this then you have to go after the translators of that one translation that jammin quoted and those that use it in regards to Isaac in Hebrews. The word 'Son' does not change the meaning. Jesus is the God who was in the bosom of the Father and Jesus is the only Son who is in the bosom of the Father and who explains Him.

    Once again, I do agree that 'the only begotten God' is the most literal translation. It is ok that you have a preference for a more literal translation but to take jammin to the task when what he quoted is a way that verse is translated, is really fruitless. He is right to take you to task about the words you have added to the other two verses that he is confronting you on. You will not find your added words in any translation from what I recall.

    #318346
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2012,13:30)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2012,23:29)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2012,14:48)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2012,13:05)
    Mike,
    Well, close but more like this:

    Who, being in very nature God…
    (someone who has the nature of God and should be treated as God………….)


    And who or what do you mean by your two uses of the word “God” in your parenthesis?


    God nature is the nature of one who is worshiped.
    Second 'God' means one who is worshiped.


    Okay, so like this:

    Who, being in the form of God one who is worshiped, and should be treated as one who is worshiped, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

    Kathi, I believe you already acknowledged that the second “God” in that sentence refers to God Almighty, the PERSON.

    Doesn't it make more sense that Jesus was existing in the form of God Almighty the Person, but didn't consider equality with God Almighty the Person a thing to be grasped?

    Of course it does, as that is exactly what Paul was teaching us.  Unlike you and jammin, Paul didn't consider “God” to be some kind of species, with different members – of which Jesus was one.

    Paul taught that Jesus' humility was such that, even though he was existing in the form of his own God (as a powerful spirit being), he didn't consider himself equal to his own God – like Satan did.

    Your understanding of this verse, and the explanation of that understanding, leave much to be desired.  It is nothing more than your USUAL twistings of scriptures in your effort to FORCE them to teach things they don't really teach.

    The first “God” in that verse refers to the same thing (person) as the second “God” in that verse.  The only other way around that common sense understanding is to claim Paul believed in “God” as a species, and Jesus had the nature of this species, because he was a member of that species.  And that goes against EVERYTHING ELSE Paul taught about Jesus and his God – who also happens to be our God.

    Kathi, the God of Jesus is the God of us.  This is scriptural, as Jesus himself says so.

    When will you believe this?


    Mike,

    Quote
    Unlike you and jammin, Paul didn't consider “God” to be some kind of species, with different members – of which Jesus was one.

    Well, I don't believe that jammin or myself have said one way or the other that God was some kind of species.

    more later.

    #318396
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 31 2012,13:57)
    The translators are adding the word 'son' to John 1:18 because we ALREADY KNOW that Jesus was a male and a son.
    We can ASSUME 'son' in this verse, because we know Jesus was the Father's only begotten Son.


    That's not an equal comparison, Kathi.  

    The Greek words “monogenes theos” cannot possibly mean “God, the only Son” – even if you italicized the word “son”.  They can italicize “son” and ADD that word into the scripture, but if they did, it would say, “the only begotten god son“.  

    They are changing “monogenes theos” to “theos monogenes”, and then adding “son” to the end.  Now, tell me I'm wrong.

    Also, tell me if the word “monogenes”, IN AND OF ITSELF, means “only son”.  Does it?  YES or NO?

    See, you missed the entire point I was making about the italicized “son” in Hebrews.  The FACT that the word “son” IS italicized PROVES that the word “monogenes”, IN AND OF ITSELF, doesn't mean “only son”.  That's why they had to ADD the word “son” in italics in the first place Kathi………….. because the word “monogenes” doesn't mean “only son”.  Yet jammin is claiming that it does.

    Is jammin right about this?  YES or NO?

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 31 2012,13:57)
    Once again, I do agree that 'the only begotten God' is the most literal translation. It is ok that you have a preference for a more literal translation but to take jammin to the task when what he quoted is a way that verse is translated, is really fruitless.


    I agree that trying to teach jammin the TRUTH about many things seems to be fruitless.  But I try anyway.  You can help your friend if you want to, simply by telling him the TRUTH of the matter that the Greek word “monogenes” DOESN'T MEAN “ONLY SON”.

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 31 2012,13:57)
    He is right to take you to task about the words you have added to the other two verses that he is confronting you on. You will not find your added words in any translation from what I recall.


    First of all, I answered his first question the first time he asked it.  I told him point blank, “NO, there is no translation that says the words, “his God” in Phil 2.  How many times should I answer it, Kathi?

    When I made that statement about “his God”, I seriously, for the life of me, thought that everyone in the whole world understood that Paul was saying Jesus was existing in the form of Jehovah, his God.

    I never in a million years figured that you two think Paul was talking about Jesus existing in the form of “godkind”.  I thought it was self-evident that he was existing in the form of Jehovah, his God, but didn't consider equality with Jehovah, his God, something to be grasped.

    Even Ed piped in and asked why it would matter if I was saying “his God”, since we all know that Jehovah IS the God of Jesus.  Apparently, both Ed and I just assumed that all people understood that Paul MEANT “God” when he WROTE “God”.

    I honestly didn't realize how far certain people would go for their doctrines.  I didn't realize that people like you and jammin would have to IMAGINE that Paul was using the word “God” to refer to some kind of “god-kind species”, of which Jesus was a member.  It honestly never crossed my mind.

    Kathi, IF Paul was indeed talking about Jesus existing in the form of Jehovah, and not of some “god-kind species” like you think, would it then be wrong of me to say “his God”, since we all know that the Father IS the God of Jesus?  YES or NO?

    And finally, concerning jammin's other question, “NO, I don't know of any English Bible that translates “monogenes” as “uniquely generated”.  But jammin's answer is always the same:  READ IT IN SCRIPTURE, OR ELSE IT'S NOT TRUE.

    Kathi, is that a fair assessment?  Do you agree that the “mono” part of “monogenes” is said to mean “only”, “one”, “one after its kind”, and “unique”?  YES or NO?

    Now, consider this info:
    The basic Greek word for “only-begotten” used for Jesus and Isaac is mo·no·ge·nes′, from mo′nos, meaning “only,” and gi′no·mai, a root word meaning “to generate,” “to become (come into being),” states Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance.

    Hence, mo·no·ge·nes′ is defined as: “Only born, only begotten, i.e. an only child.”—A Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament, by E. Robinson.

    (jammin, pay REAL CLOSE ATTENTION to the “i.e.” in the definition above.  It means the same thing as the parenthesis mean in the definition you quoted.  They both mean, “AS IN”, or “FOR EXAMPLE”.  In other words, monogenes means “only generated”, AS IN an only child.  Do you see the difference?  It doesn't MEAN “only child”.  It MEANS “only generated”, AS IN an only child.  Get it?)

    And Kathi, based on the teachings of Strong, as quoted above, does the root word of “genes” mean “to generate”?  YES or NO?

    If so, then is “only generated” an accurate translation of “monogenes”?  YES or NO?

    And if so, knowing that the “mono” part of the word can also mean “unique”, would “uniquely generated” also be an accurate translation of “monogenes”?  YES or NO?

    And if so, then does the fact that no English Bible renders “monogenes” as “uniquely generated” mean I am a “false teacher” by saying the word can mean that? YES or NO?

    #318399
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 31 2012,14:06)
    Well, I don't believe that jammin or myself have said one way or the other that God was some kind of species.


    Let's make this simple, Kathi.

    I can show you MANY scriptures where Paul meant “God Almighty” when he used the word “theos”.

    Can YOU show me even ONE scripture where Paul used the word “theos” to describe what you say he was describing in Phil 2:6? In other words, is there a scriptural use of “theos” by Paul that would SUPPORT your understanding of his use of the word in Phil 2:6?

    #318400
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    jammin,

    I have yet again answered YOUR questions in my post to Kathi.  It's now YOUR turn again:

    jammin, we both agree that there exists only ONE Almighty God.  Does that ONE Almighty God have a Son named Jesus?  YES or NO?

    #318469
    jammin
    Participant

    mike said:First of all, I answered his first question the first time he asked it. I told him point blank, “NO, there is no translation that says the words, “his God” in Phil 2. How many times should I answer it, Kathi?

    mike said:
    And finally, concerning jammin's other question, “NO, I don't know of any English Bible that translates “monogenes” as “uniquely generated”.

    ——–
    thank you mike for answering. you are really a false teacher. you always do this mike. you say words that are not written in the bible. those words only exist in your imagination LOL

    btw i already answered your question. the nature of God is almighty. if you are GOD< you are almighty.
    who is that GOD you are referring to??

    before i forgot, you still did not answer my last question.are you better than those scholars who translated john 1.18 as God the only son when it comes to greek?
    yes or no?

    #318471
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,
    Here is a verse, 'gods':
    Gal 4:6 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.

    That is good that you answered jammin.

    I have said all I'm going to say about John 1:18 in this regard. It really seems pointless.

    #318474
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,22:50)
    Mike,
    Here is a verse, 'gods':
    Gal 4:6 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.

    That is good that you answered jammin.

    I have said  all I'm going to say about John 1:18 in this regard. It really seems pointless.


    ]kathi

    why would you say anything you the others make their mind up just like you do ;

    tell me HIS GOD THE FATHER THE ONLY TRUE GOD ??? IF YES
    THEN CHRIST THE SON EVEN BEING IN THE SAME NATURE CAN NOT BE THE TRUE GOD OF WITCH HE HIS TO SON OF,

    YOU HAVE TO DECLARE TO BE TRUE TO YOUR OWN VIEW “THAT THEIR ARE TWO TRUE GODS ONE CALLED THE FATHER AND ONE CALLED THE SON ,AND THAT MAKES THE BIBLE USELESS TO ANY ONE BECAUSE IT LIES ON THE VERY FOUNDAMENTAL TRUTH THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD,

    KISS THE DEVIL WHILE YOU ARE GOING THERE

    #318501
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,10:50)
    Mike,
    Here is a verse, 'gods':
    Gal 4:6 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.


    And is that the defintion you want to use for the first “God” in Phil 2:6, Kathi?

    Are you claiming that Jesus was existing in the form of “gods”, but didn't consider equality with his own God something to be grasped?

    I asked for an instance where Paul used the word “theos” in a way that supports what YOU think he meant by “theos” in the first part of Phil 2:6.  Can you show me an example?  Because the one you showed doesn't match what you've claimed about Phil 2:6.

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,10:50)
    I have said  all I'm going to say about John 1:18 in this regard. It really seems pointless.


    Okay.  The following questions are about the Greek language, and not about John 1:18, so you should be able to easily answer them.  (I believe they are all simple YES or NO questions, so it shouldn't take too much time out of your life.)

    1.  Does the Greek word “monogenes”, IN AND OF ITSELF, mean “only son”?  YES or NO?

    2.  Do the Greek words “monogenes theos”, IN AND OF THEMSELVES, mean “God the only Son”?  YES or NO?

    3.  Kathi, IF Paul was indeed talking about Jesus existing in the form of Jehovah, and not of some “god-kind species” like you think, would it then be wrong of me to say “his God”, since we all know that the Father IS the God of Jesus?  YES or NO?

    4. Kathi, based on the teachings of Strong, as quoted in my last post, does the root word of “genes” mean “to generate”?  YES or NO?

    5.  If so, then is “only generated” an accurate translation of “monogenes”?  YES or NO?

    6.  And if so, knowing that the “mono” part of the word can also mean “unique”, would “uniquely generated” also be an accurate translation of “monogenes”?  YES or NO?

    7.  And if so, then does the fact that no English Bible renders “monogenes” as “uniquely generated” mean I am a “false teacher” by saying the word can mean that?  YES or NO?

    I realize you don't WANT to answer these questions.  I understand that your HONEST and CORRECT answers to these questions might embarass your buddy jammin, and put him at odds with you.  But are we after TRUTH in this forum?  Or just trying to find people who will side with us?

    (Btw, you might as well give up on you and jammin being sidekicks anyway.  He believes the truth of the scriptures that there exists only ONE Almighty God.  And by now he also realizes that you believe in TWO Almighty Gods.  That being the case, you should save face and answer the questions.  That way, the rest of us will most likely eventually forget about the personal reason you didn't answer them the first time.  :) )

    #318502
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 01 2012,09:18)
    mike said: “NO, there is no translation that says the words, “his God” in Phil 2.

    mike said:
    “NO, I don't know of any English Bible that translates “monogenes” as “uniquely generated”.

    ——–
    thank you mike for answering. you are really a false teacher.


    How so, jammin?  Do you really believe that if the words aren't in the Bible exactly the way I said them, then what I said is automatically false?   ???  You can't really believe that crap, can you?

    1.  You do realize that OUR God is also the God of JESUS, right?  ???  Therefore, OUR God is HIS God.  I have not spoken falsely.

    2.  You are smart enough to realize that “unique” is one way to translate the Greek word “monos”, right?  And you're smart enough to know that “to generate” is one way to translate the root word from which “genes” comes, right?  If you are able to realize these FACTS, then you SHOULD also be able to realize that “uniquely generated” is a perfectly acceptable translation of “monogenes”.  After all, you accept “uniquely begotten”, right?  And “begotten” is a synonym of “generated”.  ???

    So once again, I haven't spoken anything that is false.  jammin, what does it mean when someone claims that a person who is speaking the truth is really speaking falsely?  Doesn't that make you a bearer of false witness against me?  What are we told by God about bearing false witness against our neighbors?  Is it acceptable to God?

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 01 2012,09:18)
    you always do this mike. you say words that are not written in the bible.


    Oh, you mean like the word “trinity”?  Where in the Bible can I find that word, jammin?  Newsflash, sonny!  Just because the exact words are not in the Bible doesn't make them false words.  Do you think that Jesus is the Lord of the Apostle Thaddaeus?  Does anybody ever mention in the Bible that Jesus is HIS LORD?  Would I be a “false teacher” then, if I was speaking about Thaddaeus, and said something about HIS LORD Jesus?

    Lord have mercy, jammin.  Surely you MUST be smarter than this, right?   ???  Can I say, “The Bible is the written word of God”, even though the word “Bible” isn't even in the Bible?  Or would I be a “false teacher” for making that claim?   ???  I swear, sometimes I just want to reach into the computer and slap some sense into you………………. which brings me to this next senseless thing you've been saying:

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 01 2012,09:18)
    who is that GOD you are referring to??


    What in the world are you talking about?  ???  You just got done saying that there is only ONE Almighty God.  Now you're asking me WHO the Almighty God is that I'm talking about?  That doesn't even compute, jammin.  If there is only ONE of them, then I have no choice but to be talking about that ONE.   ???

    Now, would you please answer the question:
    jammin, you and I both believe that there exists only ONE Almighty God.  Does that ONE Almighty God have a son named Jesus?  YES or NO?

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 01 2012,09:18)
    you still did not answer my last question.are you  better than those scholars who translated john 1.18 as God the only son when it comes to greek?
    yes or no?


    I don't know whether I'm “better” than them or not, but I do know that “monogenes theos” doesn't mean “God the only Son”.  I'm surprised that you don't also know this, since you claim to have studied Greek.  :)

    #318503
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,10:50)
    That is good that you answered jammin.


    Glad you're happy. Now be a good girl and answer my questions. :)

    #318575
    jammin
    Participant

    mike said:How so, jammin?  Do you really  believe that if the words aren't in the Bible exactly the way I said them, then what I said is automatically false?   ???  You can't really  believe that crap, can you?

    —-
    mike i do not need your opinion. if all preachers will be like you then what is the use of the bible? dont you have any common sense mike?
    what is the use of the bible if i can say anything i want even if i cant read my words in the bible.
    do not use bible mike.. use pocket book LOL

    btw i am not preaching the WORD “trinity.”
    did i say that you can find that word in the bible???
    did i say that i believe in that WORD?

    talk to people who believe that the “word trinity” is in the bible.
    i say what is written in the bible mike.

    ————
    mike said:
    I don't know whether I'm “better” than them or not, but I do know that “monogenes theos” doesn't mean “God the only Son”.  I'm surprised that you don't also know this, since you claim to have studied Greek.  :)

    me: then dont pretend mike that you know the language. scholars translated john 1.18 as GOD THE ONLY SON and i believe that mike bec i can read that in the bible. im not like you…
    you believe what is not written in the bible. you preach imagination mike LOL

    #318576
    jammin
    Participant

    do not ask kathi about generate mike.
    if that is your opinion then read that in john 1.18

    but you said there is no version for that LOL
    poor mike.

    make your own bible boy! LOL

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