John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 10,621 through 10,640 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #314377
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 01 2012,04:57)
    limjunus,

    the bible said Christ left us an example.


    And how exactly does Christ leaving us an example equate to “Jesus is God Most High”?   ???  

    How does it equate to “God Almighty prayed to, obeyed, and worshiped Himself to show us how it was done”?  ???

    jammin, you very rarely address the actual point in question.

    #314379
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 03 2012,04:19)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 30 2012,16:05)
    There is no mention in Scripture of “a man-made idol [“god”] that couldn't speak [or could] or move [or could] who turned staffs into snakes, and water into blood, and made frogs cover the land in Egypt.”


    Okay Frank,

    Then by whose power did the priests of Egypt match the first three signs and wonders that Jehovah did through Moses?  For example, can human beings turn staffs into snakes?  Yet the Egyptian priests WERE able to do this – and turn water into blood, and make frogs cover the land.  

    1.  By whose power did these priest do these things, Frank?

    2.  And who were the “gods of Egypt” that Jehovah punished?  (Exodus 12:12, Numbers 33:4, etc.)  Were these “gods of Egypt” merely man-made idols that couldn't speak or move?  How does Jehovah “punish”, or “bring judgment upon” a man-made idol that couldn't speak or move?

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 30 2012,16:05)
    You also need to read 2 Kings 3:27 as it is related within it's proper context………….

    There also is most certainly no mention of “a man-made idol that couldn't [or could] speak or move [or could] who brought great wrath down on God's nation in 2 Kings 3:27″!


    Okay, let's discuss the context of 2 Kings 3 then.  The way I understand it, Elisha told the three kings that Jehovah would deliver Moab into their hands.  (3:18)  

    Then the Israelites slaughtered the Moabites, cut down their trees, and stopped up their springs and wells with stones.(3:24-25)

    When all seemed lost, the king of Moab tried to fight through to the king of Edom. (3:26)

    When that failed, he sacrificed his son (presumably to his god Chemosh).  Immediately after this sacrifice, a severe wrath came upon the Israelites, causing them to flee for home instead of continuing their destruction of Moab.  (3:27)

    3.  WHO brought this wrath down upon the Israelites after the king sacrificed his son to his god Chemosh?


    mikebulls'64,

    Scripture nowhere mentions that Pharaoh's “MAGICIANS” used the power of “gods” to perform their tricks! Yes, human  beings can SEEMINGLY turn staffs into snakes, water into blood and cause frogs to cover the land. They are called illusionist or magicians! Should I take it that you also believe that David Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty LITERALLY vanish by the power of “gods”? :laugh:

    Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian MAGICIANS[/I] also did the same things [B]BY THEIR SECRET ARTS: Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs (Exodus 7:11-12 – New International Version ©1984).

    What translation are you using that suggests that Father Yahweh “punished” any of YOUR so-called “LIVING BEING GODS”? Obviously Father Yahweh judges the gods of the nations as “nothing” and “not gods at all (having no power whatsoever)” just as I also judge YOUR “Gods”! :laugh:

    It seems that you are siding with Mesha's erroneous report on the Moabite Stone, that his pagan god Chemosh had power in defeated Ysryl, right? Please consider the following excerpt and it's source:

    THE GREAT INDIGNATION THAT CAME AGAINST ISRAEL

    Verses 26, 27
    And when the king of Moab saw that the battle was too sore for him, he took with him seven hundred men that drew sword, to break through unto the king of Edom; but they could not. Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt-offering upon the wall. And there was great wrath against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.

    The best explanation of what happened here is perhaps that of Honeycutt. “The scene of the king sacrificing his oldest son on the wall, the one destined to succeed him as king, so moved and excited the Moabites that they fell upon the coalition and defeated it.”F12 It is certainly ridiculous to suppose, as Mesha reported it on the Moabite Stone, that his pagan god Chemosh defeated Israel.

    He took seven hundred men. to break through to the king of Edom

    (2 Kings 3:26). In this maneuver, Mesha, the king of Moab, evidently supposed that the king of Edom, a vassal of Jehoshaphat, might actually change sides and help him, or at least be a less enthusiastic fighter than others of the coalition. Montgomery called this passage a contradictionF13 of the fact of Edom being a part of the coalition. However, he merely misunderstood the thinking of Mesha.

    And there was great wrath against Israel

    (2 Kings 3:27). The source of this wrath is NOT stated, and scholars have different views of its origin. Keil believed that, The Israelites brought upon themselves the wrath of God by occasioning the offering of an abominable human sacrifice.F14 Adam Clarke agreed with that view, writing that, The Lord was displeased with Israel for driving things to such an extremity.F15 Jackson declared that, The great wrath that came upon Israel was from the god of Moab who accepted the human sacrifice of his worshippers.F16

    We cannot agree with either of these opinions. God would hardly have been angry with Israel for carrying out the same kind of victorious destruction of Moab that God's prophet had prophesied, as Keil thought. Nor is it possible to suppose that a nonentity like Chemosh, the Moabite's pagan god, could either have “accepted” or “rejected” anything. However, in this case, it must be admitted that the defeat of Israel following Mesha's appeal to Chemosh by the sacrifice of his son and heir gave that pagan ruler ample excuse for attributing the victory to his pagan god. In this connection, the words of Dentan are helpful:

       “It may seem strange that our Bible would contain a story that can be interpreted as teaching the efficacy of human sacrifice, even such a sacrifice to a heathen god, Chemosh of the Moabites; but this is another striking bit of evidence of basic honesty.”F17

    If there had been any such person as that mythical Deuteronomist so sternly jealous of the honor of the One True God and his unique sanctuary in Jerusalem, why would he have allowed anything like this to appear in the Bible? The existence of it proves that no such person existed!

    Another possible explanation of Israel's repulse here is that of LaSor:

       “It is possible that the Israelites believed that human sacrifice was efficacious to Chemosh in his own land, because the popular beliefs of the Israelites were often in opposition to revealed truth, as spoken by the prophets.”F18 If that was the case, it is easy to see how there might have ensued a general panic following the sacrifice of Mesha's son.

    It appears, therefore, that the great wrath that came upon Israel was that of the Moabites who were aroused to a fran
    tic frenzy by their kings abominable sacrifice of his son. At any rate, the campaign ended then and there.

    END EXCERPT
    SOURCE

    You have a lot to learn about what Scripture truly teaches, but it is quite obvious that you choose to instead pervert Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word to your own destruction! :laugh:

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #314380
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 03 2012,05:15)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 02 2012,01:58)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 01 2012,05:58)
    mikebulls'64 actually believes that this idol bovine god Chemosh that the king of Moab sacrificed his son to was an actual living being “god”! :laugh:


    Frank,

    Angels and demons do exist and Scripture does call them gods…….


    Thank you Kerwin!  Some people just can't get this SCRIPTURAL teaching through their heads, because they are blinded by what they've been taught by men.

    The Bible speaks of numerous gods, of whom Jehovah is the God.  And scripture NEVER uses the words “false god”, or “so-called god”.  So when the gods of Egypt turned staffs into snakes, it doesn't mean that man-made idols that cannot speak or move somehow had the power to do this.

    Frank has a lot to learn about what the scriptures truly teach.  For example:

    Daniel 10
    13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

    Who was this “prince of the Persian kingdom”?  Surely not a man, since a man could not detain an angel of God, right?

    Daniel 10
    20 He said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Now I am about to return to engage in battle with the prince of Persia. When I go, the prince of Greece is coming.

    Who is this “prince of Greece”?  Again, obviously not a human being.

    We know from scripture that Jehovah gave Satan the kingdoms of the world.  (Luke 4:6)

    We know that powerful demons exist.  And we know that demons and angels are called gods in scripture.

    How hard is it to piece together that Satan has handed over the authority of his many kingdoms to those demons who serve him, and that each kingdom worships the demon(s) placed over their kingdom as their god(s)?

    Notice that it was Michael who came to Daniel's angel's assistance and battled against the “prince of Persia”.  (Dan 10:13)  Compare that to who Michael battles against in Rev 12:7……………. “the dragon and his angels”.

    Frank, these angels of Satan, or “princes”, are the gods of the nations they rule over.  They can do nothing for or against those nations if not allowed by Jehovah, the God of gods.  But, just as Jehovah DOES allow mankind to rule over the animals as we see fit – for the most part, He also allows these spiritual sons of God to rule over their nations as they see fit – for the most part.  (Consider the things Jehovah ALLOWED Satan to do to Job.  He had free reign over Job – up to a certain point.)

    I believe this is similar to the Moabite god Chemosh being ALLOWED by Jehovah to act in defense of his kingdom.  He had free reign over the Israelites – up to a certain point.  He was ALLOWED by his own God to bring wrath, but not physical harm, down upon the Israelites to drive them away.

    Consider what Paul said in Ephesians 6:12……..
    12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 

    These “rulers”, “authorities”, “powers” and “spiritual forces” are REAL, Frank.  We battle against them.  They are not man-made idols that cannot speak or move.

    Anyway, I'm quite sure that all this is wasted on you, for you are set in your ways, and don't really care what the scriptures actually teach.


    mikebulls'64,

    You are quite right in saying all this is wasted on me concerning your belief that the gods that you worship have power, since I have told you many times “I am no mere “god” worshiper!”  :laugh:

    In fact, I will tell you again as I have told you from Jump Street, “I do not wish to enter into a discussion or a dispute with you concerning ANYTHING that you have to say!”, but you can persist in doing so until you are blue in the face for all I care, since you so enjoy continuing to be owned on the very forum that you co-moderate!  :laugh:

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #314381
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 03 2012,06:09)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 01 2012,04:57)
    limjunus,

    the bible said Christ left us an example.


    And how exactly does Christ leaving us an example equate to “Jesus is God Most High”?   ???  

    How does it equate to “God Almighty prayed to, obeyed, and worshiped Himself to show us how it was done”?  ???

    jammin, you very rarely address the actual point in question.


    mike,

    i believe what apostle paul said.
    he is equal with God
    Philippians 2:6

    GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    6 Although he was in the form of God and equal with God,

    you are just making things complicated
    read and believe what the bible said. do not add your own words in the bible.

    sorry boy but you are a false teacher. your doctrine is not in the bible.

    the bible said christ left us an example
    the bible said he is equal with God.

    #314382
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 02 2012,18:58)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 01 2012,05:58)
    mikebulls'64 actually believes that this idol bovine god Chemosh that the king of Moab sacrificed his son to was an actual living being “god”! :laugh:


    Frank,

    Looks like a minotaur.  A Greek hero is said to have killed one of those demons; the issue if a woman cursed with unholy lust towards a bull.   The four arms are new to me.

    Obviously someone took some liberties with the truth but there are beasts numbered among the host of God; and therefore reasonably among the angels of Satan.

    Revelation 19:4
    King James Version (KJV)

    4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

    Angels and demons do exist and Scripture does call them gods; nevertheless there is but one true God that is the source of all righteous things and the only one worthy to be worshiped. To worship an angel as if he/she were Jehovah is an abomination.


    kerwin,

    The Chemosh image that I presented is nothing more than an artist's rendition. Following are some artists renditions of mikebulls'64's so-called “powerful god” Baal/Molech/Chemosh:


    Well! Would you look at that! It actually is a “living being god” just as mikebulls'64 had proclaimed, since it is obviously holding a child! I mean, it has to be an actual “living being god” for it to hold a child, right? :laugh:


    Look ma! No hands! Ooops! Dropped the child right into my fiery lap! :laugh:

    You seemed to have a problem with this so-called “god” having four arms, so here I have presented you with some artists renditions with IT having only two arms. Whether these renditions be “TRUE“? or not (?????) …, since I have never read anywhere in Scripture where it had said that IT had two, three, or any arms at all.  :laugh:

    You and mikebulls'64 can worship your FALSE “gods” till you are blue in the face for all I care! For me and my house though, I believe that will will only worship the ONE AND ONLY TRUE Mighty One, Father Yahweh!

    But if serving Yahweh seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves at this point in time whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve Yahweh! (Yahshua 24:15).

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #314388
    kerwin
    Participant

    Frank,

    This is what Scripture states.

    Deuteronomy 32:17
    King James Version (KJV)

    17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

    Obviously they in some manner sacrificed unto devils; which this passage also calls gods.

    Demons have powers; just as angels do.  

    Deuteronomy 13
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
    2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
    3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

    So if a magician giveth a sign of wonder, and it come to pass, then Jehovah is proving you.

    This is a Skeptical Age;  beware less it lead you astray.  

    Jehovah does not share in the nature of angels, man, or beast as he is not created and they are.

    #314419
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 03 2012,15:11)
    Frank,

    This is what Scripture states.

    Deuteronomy 32:17
    King James Version (KJV)

    17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

    Obviously they in some manner sacrificed unto devils; which this passage also calls gods.

    Demons have powers; just as angels do.  

    Deuteronomy 13
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
    2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
    3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

    So if a magician giveth a sign of wonder, and it come to pass, then Jehovah is proving you.

    This is a Skeptical Age;  beware less it lead you astray.  

    Jehovah does not share in the nature of angels, man, or beast as he is not created and they are.


    kerwin,

    I have alraedy made it quite clear to you and everyone else here from Scripture in CONTEXT and with SCRIPTURE AS A WHOLE that it clearly makes known and teaches that theses SO-CALLED or FALSE “gods” are “nothing” or “no gods at all”. You can take one verse of Scripture out of CONTEXT of SCRIPTURE AS A WHOLE and build your “own private interpretation” till you are blue in the face for all I care, but Scripture says and teaches AS A WHOLE the following concerning these SO-CALLED or FALSE “gods”:

    From your KJV version:

    They sacrificed unto devils, NOT TO GOD [This translation is clearly giving reference to Father Yahweh the ONE and ONLY TRUE Mighty One]; to [FALSE or SO-CALLED] gods whom THEY KNEW NOT, to NEW GODS THAT CAME NEWLY UP, whom YOUR FATHERS FEARED NOT – http://www.bible.cc/deuteronomy/32-17.htm .

    Note that it says “… to NEW GODS THAT CAME NEWLY UP …”. Now, where did these “NEW GODS THAT CAME NEWLY UP” come from. Do you believe that Father Yahweh all of the sudden created these “NEW GODS THAT CAME NEWLY UP” and gave them power, [authority], strength or might? If so, you are greatly deceived!

    The word translated as “god” has it's origin from the Hebrew root 'yl, ul, or wl' and simly means power [authority], strength, or might. In accordance with Scripture, it is Father Yahweh Who is the ONE and ONLY TRUE source of power [authority], srength or might. ALL other so-called or false “gods” have no power [authority], strength or might whatsoever and Father Yahweh most certainly would not give these false or so-called “gods” power [authority], strength or might and they most certainly have no power [authority], strength or might of their own. For example, the compition that was set up between Yahweh and Baal clearly showed that Baal had no power whatsoever.

    As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto *idols [“gods”], we know that an *idol [or “a god”] IS NOTHING IN THE WORLD, and that there is NONE OTHER God [“Mighty One” or source of power] BUT ONE [Again, this ONE and ONLY source of power in this translation is clearly giving reference to Father Yahweh.] – http://www.bible.cc/1_corinthians/8-4.htm

    *NOTE
    For ALL the gods of the nations are idols, but Yahweh made the heavens (Psalm 96:5; 1 Chronicles 16:26).
    Now note what Barnes' Notes on the Bible says:

    For all the gods of the nations are idols – All the gods worshipped by the people of other lands are mere “idols.” None of them can claim to have a real existence as gods. The word here rendered “idols” is translated by the Septuagint, δαιμόνια daimonia, “demons.” So the Latin Vulgate “daemonia.” The Hebrew word – אליל 'ĕlı̂yl – means properly “of nothing, nought, empty, vain.” See Job 13:4. The meaning here is, that they were mere nothings; they had no real existence; they were the creations of the imagination; they could not in any sense be regarded as what it was pretended they were; they had no claim to reverence and worship as gods. Of most of them it was a fact that they had no existence at all, but were mere creatures of fancy. Of those that did really exist, as the sun, moon, stars, animals, or the spirits of departed people, though it was true that they had an actual existence, yet it was also true that they had no existence “as gods,” or as entitled to worship; and hence, it was also true that the worship offered to them was as vain as that which was offered to mere beings of the imagination. This verse is extracted literally from 1 Chronicles 16:26. The Hebrew is the same.
    SOURCE: http://bible.cc/psalms/96-5.htm

    Even Yahshua made it quite clear that he could do nothing on his own:

    By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but Him Who sent me (Yahchanan 5:30).

    Yahshua had no power [authority], strength or might on his own, but he received his power [authority], strength or might from on high from his and our Father Yahweh. This is why he had clearly said that ALL power [authority] had been GIVEN to him in heaven and in the earth (Mattithyah 28:18; cf. 9:6).

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #314438
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Sep. 30 2012,08:34][/quote]

    Quote
    Read again Acts 2:22, Charles.  It was GOD who did the works THROUGH His HOLY SERVANT Jesus Christ.

    Mike,

    It seems, you are about to admit that Jesus is God in flesh, since
    GOD WAS IN HIS HOLY SERVANT JESUS’FLESH BODY.

    In view of your above statement ,regarding the word SERVANT.
    I WOULD LIKE YOU TO CLARIFY YOUR mentality DEU TO THE FACT THAT SCRIPTURE STATES :
    IN THE FORM OF A SERVANT, Which is quite different.
    DON’T YOU THINK SO???

    READ and compare these scriptures,


    Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the
    FORM OF GOD,
    thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (SO JESUS IS EQUAL WITH GOD!!)
    compared WITH:
    Philippians:2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the
    FORM OF A SERVANT,
    and was made in the likeness of men:

    Now:
    How come YOU considered JESUS a SERVANT when scripture used the term :
    THE FORM OF A SERVANT???
    And in the previous verse, YOU did not consider Jesus GOD ALTHOUGH SCRIPTURE USED ALSO THE TERM:
     THE FORM OF GOD???
    If according to you when it stated
    IN THE FORM OF a servant, HE IS A SERVANT,
    why isn’t He  also GOD when it is also stated  IN THE FORM OF GOD???
    ! NOW:
    You are convinced that Jesus is only the Son of God, but not God.
    Reflect on this:
    You as son of man, have a CARNAL FATHER, therefore you are also MAN like your father.
    Why is it so difficult to accept that:
    Jesus as SON OF GOD and have GOD as FATHER He is also God???
    And in the same instant you accept that He was a son of man, therefore MAN notwithstanding the fact that He had no carnal father???
    NOW TO YOUR CONTRADICTION:
    You stated:

    Quote
    Read again Acts 2:22, Charles.  It was GOD who did the works THROUGH His HOLY SERVANT Jesus Christ.


    You also stated:

    Quote
    God Almighty never prayed to God Almighty, Charles.  But Jesus did – many times.  So, “NO”, he wasn't “the true God manifested”.  He is, was, and has always been the Son of God – from the very first moment God brought him into existence.


    Let’s start with Acts 2:22:
    Acts 2:22 ………………..which God did by him
    Mike the way I see it, it’s clear enough,
    GOD DID BY HIM!!
    How?? Obvious God conceived Mary,(JESUS’SPIRIT transformed through nature and born AS WOMAN) BY THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER, AND BECAME MAN.
    Isn’ it clear enough that THE FATHER HIMSELF ABIDED IN JESUS.
    Read:
    Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead BODILY.
    It is even more clear  in the above scripture Mike!!
    So the only body God has is JESUS’
    Now:
    Reflecting on your statements

    IT IS OBVIOUS, THAT WHEN IT PLEASES YOU GOD DID HIS WORKS THROUGH JESUS, BUT WHEN IT DOESN’T,
    IT WAS JESUS THAT DID HIS WORKS!!!( Like when he was praying)

    IF THE GODHEAD IS IN JESUS' BODY, IT ISN'T GOD HIMSELF AS MAN IN JESUS WHO IS PRAYING TO HIS FATHER IN HEAVEN???

    TOTAL CONFUSION MIKE:

    IT’S EITHER ONE OR THE OTHER!!
    IT IS EITHER ALWAYS THE FATHER WORKS IN JESUS IN EVERY WAY HE LIKES, WHICH DEFINITELY IT IS, OR NOT.
    So without realizing with your own words you are admitting that JESUS IS GOD MANIFESTED:

    Reflect on your own words Mike AGAIN!!

    Quote
    God Almighty never prayed to God Almighty, Charles.  But Jesus did

    With these words above you are declaring that JESUS IS GOD.

    YES MIKE I KNOW THAT YOU ARE PUZZLED,BUT A PERSON LIKE YOU WOULD NEVER SEE THE TRUTH REGARDING JESUS, BUT I WILL GUIDE YOU THROUGH A QUESTION, IN ORDER TO REFLECT WHAT I MEAN OTHERWISE YOU WOULD REMAIN IN THE DARK:

    WHAT GOD ACQUIRED THROUGH JESUS, WHICH HE NEVER HAD, BEFORE, although He could have achieved it in a flick of time, BUT OPTED TO REALIZE IT IN MILLIONS,AND MILLIONS OF YEARS, SIMPLY TO ALLOW OUR EVIL WORLD TO EXIST,AND THROUGH THAT SAME EVIL, HE ADDED TO HIS ATTRIBUTES???

    Isaiah;45; 7 I (GOD) form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD ( CHRIST)do all these things.(THROUGH MY FATHER BY THE HOLY SPIRIT)

    YOUR CONFUSIONS REIGN:

    Quote
    He is, was, and has always been the Son of God – from the very first moment God brought him into existence.

    SO the SON OF GOD WAS NOT ALWAYS IN EXISTENCE ???
    You mean as MAN/GOD, NOT AS GOD BECAUSE AS GOD SCRIPTURE IS CLEAR:

    HE WAS, IS ,AND REMAINS ETERNAL WITH THE FATHER.
    NOW read and confirm through scripture!!

    JOHN 1:1:2 For the life was MANIFESTED; and we have seen and do bear witness, and declare unto you the LIFE ETERNAL, which was with the Father, and hath appeared to us:
    Isaiah 45:14 Thus saith the LORD,( THE FATHER, THE SON, OR BOTH???)
    The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, ( UNTO WHOM ,THE FATHER, THE SON OR BOTH???)
    saying, Surely GOD IS IN YOU; ( IN WHOM??? IN THE FATHER, IN THE SON , OR IN BOTH: I’M IN THE FATHER,AND THE FATHER IS IN ME)
    and there is none else, there is no God.
    15Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself,

    (IN WHERE ??? OBVIOUS IN JESUS’ SPIRIT, SOUL AND BODY)

    Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead BODILY.

      O God of Israel, the Saviour. (THE FATHER THE SON OR BOTH???)

    16They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to CONFUSION together that are makers of idols.

    Peace and love in Jesus
    Charles

    #314496
    terraricca
    Participant

    charles

    Quote
    It seems, you are about to admit that Jesus is God in flesh, since
    GOD WAS IN HIS HOLY SERVANT JESUS’FLESH BODY.

    Is the vice president acting in some president activity for any reason ,would this actions of his make him president ??? yes or no

    #314498
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 04 2012,12:33)
    charles

    Quote
    It seems, you are about to admit that Jesus is God in flesh, since
    GOD WAS IN HIS HOLY SERVANT JESUS’FLESH BODY.

    Is the vice president acting in some president activity for any reason ,would this actions of his make him president ??? yes or no


    [B]We must stick to the proper knowledge given by the true preachers of God.

    The true God, is only one. He is spirit in nature, invisible, never died and Father of all and He has no Vice-God.

    President: There are many president and true Vice President and we should not compare the one true and only true God with them.

    As what God, warning us. “WHOM YOU HAVE COMPARE ME?”

    #314503
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    Is the vice president acting in some president activity for any reason ,would this actions of his make him president ??? yes or no

    Terraricca,

    It seems to me that for you there is no difference:

    BETWEEN GOD AND HIS EVIL CARNAL CREATURES

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #314506
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 04 2012,12:33)
    charles

    Quote
    It seems, you are about to admit that Jesus is God in flesh, since
    GOD WAS IN HIS HOLY SERVANT JESUS’FLESH BODY.

    Is the vice president acting in some president activity for any reason ,would this actions of his make him president ??? yes or no


    the vice president is not the president but they are both HUMAN by nature. and hUMAN by nature is limited unlike God by nature.

    #314511
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 05 2012,04:24)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 04 2012,12:33)
    charles

    Quote
    It seems, you are about to admit that Jesus is God in flesh, since
    GOD WAS IN HIS HOLY SERVANT JESUS’FLESH BODY.

    Is the vice president acting in some president activity for any reason ,would this actions of his make him president ??? yes or no


    the vice president is not the president but they are both HUMAN by nature. and hUMAN by nature is limited unlike God by nature.


    carmel and Jaminn

    Quote
    the vice president is not the president but they are both HUMAN by nature. and hUMAN by nature is limited unlike God by nature.

    you have been sold to your own will and desires,and are rolling in your own garments ,constructing out of scriptures what it does not mean or say,so their is no truth in your hearts ,and so have stopped to progress in your knowledge ,and remained in the only constructed lies you still believe ,because of your contesting hearts.

    it is useless to talk to you guys ,you do not even understand your own comments

    #314529
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 02 2012,15:40)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 03 2012,04:19)

    1.  By whose power did these priest do these things, Frank?

    2.  And who were the “gods of Egypt” that Jehovah punished?  (Exodus 12:12, Numbers 33:4, etc.)  Were these “gods of Egypt” merely man-made idols that couldn't speak or move?  How does Jehovah “punish”, or “bring judgment upon” a man-made idol that couldn't speak or move?

    3.  WHO brought this wrath down upon the Israelites after the king sacrificed his son to his god Chemosh?


    mikebulls'64,

    1.  Scripture nowhere mentions that Pharaoh's “MAGICIANS” used the power of “gods” to perform their tricks! Yes, human  beings can SEEMINGLY turn staffs into snakes, water into blood and cause frogs to cover the land.


    Frank,

    I am surprised to see that you actually addressed my questions for once!  Good for you!

    Your answer to my first question is that the Egyptians didn't really turn staffs into snakes and water into blood, but that Moses and Aaron, who were standing right there, were duped by slight of hand illusions.  Is that it?

    1.  Does your explanation truly match what those scriptures say, Frank?  Don't those scriptures say that the Egyptians “did the same thing”?  If by “same thing”, it is meant that the Egyptians pulled a slight of hand illusion, then it means that Aaron's staff turning into a snake was ALSO a slight of hand illusion.  Your explanation is lacking, and doesn't align with the actual words of the scriptures.

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 02 2012,15:40)
    2.  What translation are you using that suggests that Father Yahweh “punished” any of YOUR so-called “LIVING BEING GODS”? Obviously Father Yahweh judges the gods of the nations as “nothing” and “not gods at all (having no power whatsoever)”………..


    The Contemporary English Version (CEV) has “punished the gods of Egypt” in Exodus 12:12 and Numbers 33:4.  The Douay-Rheims Bible has “upon their gods also he had executed vengeance.

    Most versions have “executed judgments”.  But my point remains the same, Frank:  How does the Creator of the universe “execute a judgment” upon a man-made idol that cannot speak or move?

    Numbers 33:3-4 American King James Version
    For the Egyptians buried all their firstborn, which the LORD had smitten among them: on their gods also the LORD executed judgments.

    If the smiting of the firstborns was a real thing, then why would you think the passing of judgment upon the gods was something other than real?

    Consider:

    Psalm 82:1
    God stands in the assembly of El; in the midst of the gods he renders judgment.

    Does this “judgment” also concern man-made idols who cannot speak or move?  Do these idols congregate with Jehovah in “the assembly of El”?   ???

    Frank, your explanation that Jehovah executed judgment upon man-made idols who cannot speak or move is lacking.  If your understanding were to be accepted, Jehovah would REALLY be passing judgment upon the MEN who MADE these idols – thinking they were gods.  The judgment would not REALLY fall upon pieces of wood and stone.

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 02 2012,15:40)
    3.  Please consider the following excerpt and it's source:

    THE GREAT INDIGNATION THAT CAME AGAINST ISRAEL

    The best explanation of what happened here is perhaps that of Honeycutt. “The scene of the king sacrificing his oldest son on the wall, the one destined to succeed him as king, so moved and excited the Moabites that they fell upon the coalition and defeated it.”


    Hmmmm…………….   The passage doesn't SAY these things though, does it?  Also, this interpretation goes against the words in verse 18, where Elisha prophesied about Jehovah:  “he will also hand Moab over to you”.  It also goes against the rest of the passage, where we learn that the Israelites completely slaughtered the Moabites.  The above interpretation calls for a MOABITE victory, since it calls for the MOABITES rallying and sending the Israelites running for the hills.  In fact, your source says, …..it must be admitted that the defeat of Israel following Mesha's appeal to Chemosh by the sacrifice of his son…...  The “defeat of Israel”?  I thought God promised a victory for Israel.   ???  

    Consider these other words from your source:

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 02 2012,15:40)
    It is certainly ridiculous to suppose, as Mesha reported it on the Moabite Stone, that his pagan god Chemosh defeated Israel.

    Nor is it possible to suppose that a nonentity like Chemosh, the Moabite's pagan god, could either have “accepted” or “rejected” anything.


    Frank, are you unable to see this circular reasoning?  ???  They are stating, in effect, Since we've already accepted the fact that Chemosh is a “non-entity”, we must now try to figure out a DIFFERENT explanation for the events described.

    The underlined part is where they fail, Frank.  They have accepted as truth what they don't really know to be truth.

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 02 2012,15:40)
    “It may seem strange that our Bible would contain a story that can be interpreted as teaching the efficacy of human sacrifice, even such a sacrifice to a heathen god, Chemosh of the Moabites; but this is another striking bit of evidence of basic honesty.”


    Do you see that last word “honesty”?  If the Bible was HONESTLY written to teach that the Moabite king sacrificed his son to his god, and then wrath came upon the Israelites, who are we to let our own personal pre-conceptions get in the way of this HONESTY?

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 02 2012,15:40)
    Jackson declared that, The great wrath that came upon Israel was from the god of Moab who accepted the human sacrifice of his worshippers.


    This is the ONLY LOGICAL conclusion for those of us who aren't already pre-disposed to the fantasy that Jehovah is the ONLY power in the heavens.  Read the words of Paul once more, Frank:

    Ephesians 6:12
    For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

    IS Jehovah the ONLY power in the heavens, Frank?  And why would our struggle be against man-made idols that cannot speak or move?  ???

    These are REAL powers and REAL spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.  We are powerless against them.  They can crush us like a bug any time they want to.  It is for this reason that we must relinquish any idea we have of our own human strength, ability, and intelligence – and realize that we must let our God protect us from these powers, and let Him fight this battle for us.

    #314534
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 02 2012,16:59)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 03 2012,06:09)
    And how exactly does Christ leaving us an example equate to “Jesus is God Most High”?   ???  


    mike,

    i believe what apostle paul said.
    he is equal with God
    Philippians 2:6


    In Phil 2:6, Paul teaches that Christ didn't consider equality with his God was a thing to be grasped.

    But at least you are ALMOST acknowledging that Christ being an example does NOT mean Christ is God Almighty. That is a step in the right direction – which brings us back to my question:

    jammin, do you think that God Almighty prayed to, obeyed, and worshiped HIMSELF to show us how it is supposed to be done? YES or NO?

    #314539
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 02 2012,17:27)
    You and mikebulls'64 can worship your FALSE “gods” till you are blue in the face for all I care!


    Frank,

    Why do you post that Kerwin and I “worship” other gods?  Have either of us ever given any indication that we “worship” any god other than Jehovah, the God OF these other gods”?

    Please post accurately about the other members here – to the best of your ability.  Failure to do so will result in tiles.  Also, address the members here by their user names, or a RESPECTABLE equivalent.  If you purposely butcher the other members names here anymore, it will also result in a tile.

    You can address me as “mikeboll 64”, or “mike”, or “m” or “64”, or things to that effect.  You are not allowed anymore to address me as “mikebulls'64”.  Nor will you address Terraricca as “Pie-ear”.

    Grow up and show some common courtesy, or go somewhere else.

    #314543
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 04 2012,04:24)
    the vice president is not the president but they are both HUMAN by nature…………


    So then you understand that Jesus (vice-president) is not God Almighty (The President)? Good for you, jammin.

    #314546
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 03 2012,13:54)
    Mike,

    It seems, you are about to admit that Jesus is God in flesh, since
    GOD WAS IN HIS HOLY SERVANT JESUS’FLESH BODY.


    No Charles,

    Because, unlike you, I am able to understand the DIFFERENCE between “God was in him” and “He was God”.

    God was also in Moses, doing the signs and wonders for Pharaoh.  Surely you don't think that means Moses was God Almighty, do you?

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 03 2012,13:54)
    How come YOU considered JESUS a SERVANT when scripture used the term :
    THE FORM OF A SERVANT???


    Scripture calls Jesus a SERVANT of God 4 different times in Acts.

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 03 2012,13:54)
    You are convinced that Jesus is only the Son of God, but not God.


    Yes Charles.  Just as I would be convinced that the son of the President is not the President he is the son of.

    I find it fascinating that certain people, who must believe astronomically astounding things to keep their man-made doctrine afloat, would point the finger at us – implying that WE are the ones understanding things illogically.   ???

    You seem truly shocked that I would come to the conclusion that Jesus is not God from the information that he is the Son of God.  Yet that is the only logical conclusion to which a sane person would ever come.

    #314550
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2012,02:18)

    jammin, do you think that God Almighty prayed to, obeyed, and worshiped HIMSELF to show us how it is supposed to be done?  YES or NO?


    Hi Mike,

    Good luck on getting this question answered!  :cool:

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #314553
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2012,02:41)

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 03 2012,13:54)
    Mike,

    It seems, you are about to admit that Jesus is God in flesh, since
    GOD WAS IN HIS HOLY SERVANT JESUS’FLESH BODY.


    No Charles,

    Because, unlike you, I am able to understand the DIFFERENCE between “God was in him” and “He was God”.


    Are you?

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