John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 10,641 through 10,660 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #314592
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Yes Ed.

    In fact it seems fairly simple – like a 3rd grader could understand it. If the one being known as “God” is “in” someone else, then that someone else cannot possibly be the God who was “in” him.

    #314597
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2012,04:48)
    Yes Ed.

    In fact it seems fairly simple – like a 3rd grader could understand it.  If the one being known as “God” is “in” someone else, then that someone else cannot possibly be the God who was “in” him.


    Yes Mike,

    Perhaps now you understand what Thomas meant.

    John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest;
    and how can we know the way? (Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and
    put my finger into the print of the nails,
    and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. John 20:25)

    John 10:38: But if I do, though ye believe not me,
    believe the works: that ye may know,
    and believe, that  the Father is in me, and I in him.

    Thomas recognized YHVH in Jesus! (John 20:28)
    THOMAS THEREFORE BELIEVED THE WORKS! (John 20:29)
    John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me,
    thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    2Cor.5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ,
    reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing
    their trespasses unto them(because of Christ); and hath
    committed unto us (HolySpirit)”The Word” of reconciliation.

    John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I (die) go away: for
    if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he(God) shall give you another Comforter(the HolySpirit),
    that he(God) may abide with you for ever; (Note: Emmanuel also means “God with us”: Matthew 1:23)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #314598
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    The scriptural version:

    John 20:28
    Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
     (The pronoun “him” refers back to “Jesus”, who was named in verse 26……..just like the pronoun “he” in verse 27 also refers back to “Jesus”.)

    Ed's version:
    28 Thomas said to Jehovah, whom Thomas noticed dwelling in Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”

    Ed, one of these two versions reflect the actual words of the scriptures.  The other version reflects a man's zeal to form the scriptures around their own personal understandings.

    #314600
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2012,02:26)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 02 2012,17:27)
    You and mikebulls'64 can worship your FALSE “gods” till you are blue in the face for all I care!


    Frank,

    Why do you post that Kerwin and I “worship” other gods?  Have either of us ever given any indication that we “worship” any god other than Jehovah, the God OF these other gods”?

    Please post accurately about the other members here – to the best of your ability.  Failure to do so will result in tiles.  Also, address the members here by their user names, or a RESPECTABLE equivalent.  If you purposely butcher the other members names here anymore, it will also result in a tile.

    You can address me as “mikeboll 64”, or “mike”, or “m” or “64”, or things to that effect.  You are not allowed anymore to address me as “mikebulls'64”.  Nor will you address Terraricca as “Pie-ear”.

    Grow up and show some common courtesy, or go somewhere else.


    Oh no! Here goes m'64 threating to wield his almighty godly tiles!  :laugh:

    m'64,

    I do not believe that I spoke in error and I believe that I have spoken to the best of my ability. since it is my understanding that you recognize YOUR “Jesus” as “a god”, right? And would not YOUR “Jesus” be another “god” other than YOUR “Jehovah God”? It also seems to me that you are being hypocritical, since I distinctly remember your saying to me just recently that I do not have knowledge of Scripture. Of cource I am paraphasing you here, since I do not have the time to go back and look up exacly what you said. But if you disagree, I will be glad to quote you exactly at a later time and also bring up some other things that you have said against me that are not accurate concerning me. It seems to me that you have taken a number of liberties here in this forum in believing that you know me and what it is that I believe, when you obviously do not. If I am wrong about what I state about others here and what they believe, I would be more than glad to here any correction. I would also like for you to take into consideration that it is quite difficult to post accuately about others in a forum setting such as this especally when they do not voice clearly what it is that they do believe in accordance with every aspect of what it is that they do believe. Just remember this! I have told you from Jump Street that I did not wish to enter into a debate with anyone here about what it is that I believe, but some are just persistent in confronting me, and I feel that I must respond when spoken to. I myself would rather that no one other than my brothers and sisters of like-precious belief respond to what it is that I post here, since all I get from others is direspect of what it is that I believe. But if others persist in confronting me here about what it is that I believe and convey to me that I dod not know what I am talking about, I can only do my best to respond to them in like manner in accordance with the manner that they respond to me. In other words, what goes around comes around, and if one does not like my responding to them in like manner in how they respond to me, then all I can suggest is that they simply ignore what it is that I post and simply do not respond to my post. A couple of examples that I distictly remember in how others have responded to me in this forum is that I have been told that I am being “arrogant and “proud”, when I have done nothing more than simply state what it is that I believe. I also noted that you or any other moderator of this forum never even made any attempt to correct them in how they had respoded to me in saying “… post accurately about the other members here”. In the manner that you have just responded to me, I can only conclude that maybe you feel that I am not in actuality a real member of this forum and you feel that others here can respond to me any manner that they like. Maybe you should take your own advise and grow up and show some common courtesy!

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #314602
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 04 2012,12:39)
    m'64,

    ……..it is my understanding that you recognize YOUR “Jesus” as “a god”, right? And would not YOUR “Jesus” be another “god” other than YOUR “Jehovah God”?


    Frank,

    I worship and serve as God ONLY Jehovah – the God of gods who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them, including His Son Jesus Christ.

    You should now be very clear on this matter, and I should therefore never have to read another post from you where you talk about me worshipping “gods”.

    #314603
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2012,02:34)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 04 2012,04:24)
    the vice president is not the president but they are both HUMAN by nature…………


    So then you understand that Jesus (vice-president) is not God Almighty (The President)?  Good for you, jammin.


    do not cut my post. paste the whole post mike.

    they are both GOD by nature and God by nature is not limited but MAN.

    i believe what paul said.
    Christ is equal with God.
    Philippians 2:6

    GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    6 Although he was in the form of God and equal with God,
    he did not take advantage of this equality.

    they are both God by nature.
    John 1:18

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    18 No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.

    Christ is almighty just like what john said in rev 1.8

    Revelation 1:8

    Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)

    8 The Lord God says, `I am the First and the Last. I am the beginning and the ending. I live now. I always have lived, and I will come again . I have all power.'

    Revelation 1:8

    New International Version (NIV)

    8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    I am Alpha and Omega,…. These are the words of Christ himself, appearing at once, and confirming what John had said of him, concerning his person, offices, and future coming:

    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
    Let us think frequently upon the second coming of Christ. He shall come, to the terror of those who wound and crucify him by apostacy: he shall come, to the astonishment of the whole world of the ungodly. He is the Beginning and the End; all things are from him and for him; he is the Almighty; the same eternal and unchanged One.

    #314604
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2012,05:17)
    The scriptural version:

    John 20:28
    Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
     (The pronoun “him” refers back to “Jesus”, who was named in verse 26……..just like the pronoun “he” in verse 27 also refers back to “Jesus”.)


    why are you posting john 20.28?? you dont believe what thomas said mike.

    you believe Christ is god and not God.
    LOL

    if thomas said God, he is really God! equal with his father! the apostles know that but you are ignoring this truth mike. you want others to believe your illusion.

    i told you to make another version of bible to support your doctrine

    #314609
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 05 2012,09:44)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2012,05:17)
    The scriptural version:

    John 20:28
    Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
     (The pronoun “him” refers back to “Jesus”, who was named in verse 26……..just like the pronoun “he” in verse 27 also refers back to “Jesus”.)


    why are you posting john 20.28?? you dont believe what thomas said mike.

    you believe Christ is god and not God.
    LOL

    if thomas said God, he is really God! equal with his father! the apostles know that but you are ignoring this truth mike. you want others to believe your illusion.

    i told you to make another version of bible to support your doctrine


    Hi Jammin,

    You mean like the many corrupt versions that support yours?   :D

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #314628
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 04 2012,23:57)

    Quote
    Is the vice president acting in some president activity for any reason ,would this actions of his make him president ??? yes or no

    Terraricca,

    It seems to me that for you there is no difference:

    BETWEEN GOD AND HIS EVIL CARNAL CREATURES

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel

    That is no answer ,is my question so difficult to answer it???

    #314640
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 05 2012,13:39)

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 04 2012,23:57)

    Quote
    Is the vice president acting in some president activity for any reason ,would this actions of his make him president ??? yes or no

    Terraricca,

    It seems to me that for you there is no difference:

    BETWEEN GOD AND HIS EVIL CARNAL CREATURES

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel

    That is no answer ,is my question so difficult to answer it???


    Quote
    That is no answer ,is my question so difficult to answer it???

    Terraricca,

    My post was regarding GOD!!!

    Your question has nothing to do with GOD!!!

    KEEP YOUR POSTS WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF GOD.

    HUMAN ATTRIBUTES ARE NOT OF GOD.

    HUMAN ATTRIBUTES WOULD BECOME OF GOD WHEN, THE HUMAN HIMSELF MANIFEST THEM IN THE NAME OF :

    THE ONLY TRUE FLESH VISIBLE GOD WHO WALKED ON EARTH,AND AS MAN, MANIFESTED GOD'S ATTRIBUTES IN EVERY SENSE AS PROOF THAT THE FATHER BECAME MAN IN JESUS CHRIST.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #314641
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2012,02:18)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 02 2012,16:59)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 03 2012,06:09)
    And how exactly does Christ leaving us an example equate to “Jesus is God Most High”?   ???  


    mike,

    i believe what apostle paul said.
    he is equal with God
    Philippians 2:6


    In Phil 2:6, Paul teaches that Christ didn't consider equality with his God was a thing to be grasped.

    But at least you are ALMOST acknowledging that Christ being an example does NOT mean Christ is God Almighty.  That is a step in the right direction – which brings us back to my question:

    jammin, do you think that God Almighty prayed to, obeyed, and worshiped HIMSELF to show us how it is supposed to be done?  YES or NO?


    He will not answer you the same he did to me.

    His recognized God, worship and pray to himself?

    His recognized God, sent Himself and hath offered himself to himself?

    He owe me a lot of answers.

    :D

    #314657
    kerwin
    Participant

    Frank,

    I do not hold that Jesus is an angel; even a unique breed of angel; as he is the Descendant of the human David, miraculously conceived of the virgin Mary.
    I do know that both angels and demons are called “gods” in scripture and that the wicked and ignorant peoples are accused of worshipping them.  Here is another passage:

    Psalm 106:37
    King James Version (KJV)

    37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,

    Leviticus 17:7
    King James Version (KJV)
    7 And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.

    1 Corinthians 10:20
    King James Version (KJV)
    20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

    Clearly Scripture calls foreign gods devils so calling foreign gods devils is not an error.  

    1 Corinthians 8:4
    King James Version (KJV)

    4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

    Some may ask “why an idol is nothing if it represents a demon?”
    Some Egyptians once claimed their pharaoh was a god; the son of their chief God.
    If there arose up among them those who build an idol and worshipped it would it be anything?
    If through miraculous means the pharaoh heard his worshippers’ pleas and answered them; then would the idol become anything?
    Why don’t you think a demon would do as this pharaoh did?

    Deuteronomy 32:17
    King James Version (KJV)

    17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

    Some may ask how creatures as ancient as demons can be called new.  I have purchased a new car that others owned before me.  These gods are new on the scene as their fathers did not know them but that does not mean they did not previously exist.

    Quote
     The word translated as “god” has its origin from the Hebrew root 'yl, ul, or wl' and simly means power [authority], strength, or might. In accordance with Scripture, it is Father Yahweh Who is the ONE and ONLY TRUE source of power [authority], strength or might.

    I am with you up to this point.

    Quote
     ALL other so-called or false “gods” have no power [authority], strength or might whatsoever…

     
    I am still with you here, though I would add the words “of their own”, as do you later.

    Quote
     Father Yahweh most certainly would not give these false or so-called “gods” power [authority], strength or might

    This I disagree with as Yahweh gives such authority to wrongdoers to test hearts. Your example reveals Yahweh chose not to give Baal authority at that time just as he did not give Satan the authority to kill Job at another time.

    Barnes reveals his bias with the words “Of most of them it was a fact that they had no existence at all, but were mere creatures of fancy.”  He does this as he jumps to a conclusion without evidence.  Nevertheless he acknowledges some do exist and about them states “Of those that did really exist, as the sun, moon, stars, animals, or the spirits of departed people, though it was true that they had an actual existence, yet it was also true that they had no existence “as gods,” or as entitled to worship; and hence, it was also true that the worship offered to them was as vain…”

    Demons exist and being demons they do demon things.  They are not Yahweh; but they pretend to be God as he is God in order to ensnare the ignorant and corrupt.

    #314658
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Oct. 05 2012,17:13)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2012,02:18)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 02 2012,16:59)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 03 2012,06:09)
    And how exactly does Christ leaving us an example equate to “Jesus is God Most High”?   ???  


    mike,

    i believe what apostle paul said.
    he is equal with God
    Philippians 2:6


    In Phil 2:6, Paul teaches that Christ didn't consider equality with his God was a thing to be grasped.

    But at least you are ALMOST acknowledging that Christ being an example does NOT mean Christ is God Almighty.  That is a step in the right direction – which brings us back to my question:

    jammin, do you think that God Almighty prayed to, obeyed, and worshiped HIMSELF to show us how it is supposed to be done?  YES or NO?


    He will not answer you the same he did to me.

    His recognized God, worship and pray to himself?

    His recognized God, sent Himself and hath offered himself to himself?

    He owe me a lot of answers.

    :D


    before you talk, fix first your doctrine. LOL

    i thought NLT does not believe Christ as GOD>
    but NLT says he is GOD LOL

    i already answered your questions and what you are doing is only an excuse LOL
    sorry boy.

    #314659
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 05 2012,11:26)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 05 2012,09:44)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2012,05:17)
    The scriptural version:

    John 20:28
    Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
     (The pronoun “him” refers back to “Jesus”, who was named in verse 26……..just like the pronoun “he” in verse 27 also refers back to “Jesus”.)


    why are you posting john 20.28?? you dont believe what thomas said mike.

    you believe Christ is god and not God.
    LOL

    if thomas said God, he is really God! equal with his father! the apostles know that but you are ignoring this truth mike. you want others to believe your illusion.

    i told you to make another version of bible to support your doctrine


    Hi Jammin,

    You mean like the many corrupt versions that support yours?   :D

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    bec the versions do not support your doctrine, you will say that they are corrupted versions.

    even the greek bible does not agree with your doctrine.

    that is just your excuse. it is very obvious boy LOL

    #314666
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 06 2012,00:12)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 05 2012,13:39)

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 04 2012,23:57)

    Quote
    Is the vice president acting in some president activity for any reason ,would this actions of his make him president ??? yes or no

    Terraricca,

    It seems to me that for you there is no difference:

    BETWEEN GOD AND HIS EVIL CARNAL CREATURES

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel

    That is no answer ,is my question so difficult to answer it???


    Quote
    That is no answer ,is my question so difficult to answer it???

    Terraricca,

    My post was regarding GOD!!!

    Your question has nothing to do with GOD!!!

    KEEP YOUR POSTS WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF GOD.

    HUMAN ATTRIBUTES ARE NOT OF GOD.

    HUMAN ATTRIBUTES WOULD BECOME OF GOD WHEN, THE HUMAN HIMSELF MANIFEST THEM IN THE NAME OF :

    THE ONLY TRUE FLESH VISIBLE GOD WHO WALKED ON EARTH,AND AS MAN, MANIFESTED GOD'S ATTRIBUTES IN EVERY SENSE AS PROOF THAT THE FATHER BECAME MAN IN JESUS CHRIST.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    CARMEL

    God is the almighty and his son is the second in comment ,scriptures are clear on this ,

    this is why I give my question with ;Is the vice president acting in some president activity for any reason ,would this actions of his make him president yes or no

    because it is true that Christ is acting on his father behalf but for that reason it does not make him his own father ,

    your answer declared your heart ,and your believe but not the truth of God

    #314677
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 04 2012,17:31)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2012,02:34)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 04 2012,04:24)
    the vice president is not the president but they are both HUMAN by nature…………


    So then you understand that Jesus (vice-president) is not God Almighty (The President)?  Good for you, jammin.


    do not cut my post. paste the whole post mike.

    they are both GOD by nature and God by nature is not limited but MAN.

    i believe what paul said.
    Christ is equal with God.
    Philippians 2:6

    GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    6     Although he was in the form of God and equal with God,
    he did not take advantage of this equality.

    they are both God by nature.
    John 1:18

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    18 No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.

    Christ is almighty just like what john said in rev 1.8

    Revelation 1:8

    Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)

    8 The Lord God says, `I am the First and the Last. I am the beginning and the ending. I live now. I always have lived, and I will come again . I have all power.'

    Revelation 1:8

    New International Version (NIV)

    8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    I am Alpha and Omega,…. These are the words of Christ himself, appearing at once, and confirming what John had said of him, concerning his person, offices, and future coming:

    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
    Let us think frequently upon the second coming of Christ. He shall come, to the terror of those who wound and crucify him by apostacy: he shall come, to the astonishment of the whole world of the ungodly. He is the Beginning and the End; all things are from him and for him; he is the Almighty; the same eternal and unchanged One.


    Great post jammin, keep it up!

    God bless!
    :;):

    #314679
    jammin
    Participant

    tnx sis kathi :)

    Godbless

    #314680
    Lightenup
    Participant

    jammin,
    ikaw ay salubungin :D

    #314696
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 05 2012,22:21)

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 05 2012,11:26)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 05 2012,09:44)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2012,05:17)
    The scriptural version:

    John 20:28
    Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
     (The pronoun “him” refers back to “Jesus”, who was named in verse 26……..just like the pronoun “he” in verse 27 also refers back to “Jesus”.)


    why are you posting john 20.28?? you dont believe what thomas said mike.

    you believe Christ is god and not God.
    LOL

    if thomas said God, he is really God! equal with his father! the apostles know that but you are ignoring this truth mike. you want others to believe your illusion.

    i told you to make another version of bible to support your doctrine


    Hi Jammin,

    You mean like the many corrupt versions that support yours?   :D

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    bec the versions do not support your doctrine, you will say that they are corrupted versions.

    even the greek bible does not agree with your doctrine.

    that is just your excuse. it is very obvious boy LOL


    Hi Jammin,

    The currupt English versions trace their roots back to 'three' corrupt Greek versions.

    The 'Codex Sinaiticvs', 'Codex Vaticanvs' and 'Nestle text' are all corrupt text.  (Link)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #314698
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 06 2012,05:34)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 05 2012,22:21)

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 05 2012,11:26)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 05 2012,09:44)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2012,05:17)
    The scriptural version:

    John 20:28
    Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
     (The pronoun “him” refers back to “Jesus”, who was named in verse 26……..just like the pronoun “he” in verse 27 also refers back to “Jesus”.)


    why are you posting john 20.28?? you dont believe what thomas said mike.

    you believe Christ is god and not God.
    LOL

    if thomas said God, he is really God! equal with his father! the apostles know that but you are ignoring this truth mike. you want others to believe your illusion.

    i told you to make another version of bible to support your doctrine


    Hi Jammin,

    You mean like the many corrupt versions that support yours?   :D

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    bec the versions do not support your doctrine, you will say that they are corrupted versions.

    even the greek bible does not agree with your doctrine.

    that is just your excuse. it is very obvious boy LOL


    Hi Jammin,

    The currupt English versions trace their roots back to 'three' corrupt Greek versions.

    The 'Codex Sinaiticvs', 'Codex Vaticanvs' and 'Nestle text' are all corrupt text.  (Link)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Hi Jammin,

    Flooding the English-speaking people with corrupted versions of the bible

    Corruption in the 'Codex Sinaiticvs' and 'Codex Vaticanvs'.

    The Nestle's text

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

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