John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 10,601 through 10,620 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #314213
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=limjunus,Sep. 24 2012,17:13][/quote]

    Quote
    He really do not know who is the true God, and he (Jammin) truly do not know the attributes of the true God.

    Limjunus,

    It sems you know the ATTRIBUTES OF THE TRUE GOD, DON'T YOU???

    How then hereunder you came up with this childish conclusion ???

    Quote

    It does not literally meant.

    It is metaphorical statement.

    If I will follow your argument that Jesus Christ is literally come down from heaven to prove that he is the true God, that we are talking about.  

    Meaning, by literally. There is no God, in heaven. He went down from heaven and live here on earth.

    As what we have learned, the true God, is only One and could not be divided.

    Explain these scriptures now:

    Psalm 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

    8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

    Is He divided, since He is both in heaven and also in hell???

    Also:
    Jesus Himself confirmed that while He was on earth, He also remained in the bossom of the Father, or in heaven??

    READ:

    John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who

    IS IN THE BOSSOM

    of the Father, he hath declared him.

    John3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man

    WHO IS IN HEAVEN.

    John 17:24  Father, I will

    THAT WHERE I AM, (IN HEAVEN REFERING TO THE FATHER)

    they also whom thou hast given me may be with me; that they MAY SEE MY GLORY which thou hast given me,

    (GOD IN FLESH, GOD OF ALL FLESH, MYSTICAL BODY) because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world.AS ONE WITH THE FATHER.

    How does God the Father created our entire creation through Jesus’ Spirit, and still remained in heaven???

    How our entire creation contains God’s Spirit, and the Father remains in heaven, and in the same time in Jesus???

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #314217
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Sep. 28 2012,04:04][/quote]

    Quote
    There is no scripture in which Jesus ever claimed to be God in the flesh.

    Mike,

    Read again my statement!!

    How many times the pharisees tried to kill him, for the same reason, that Jesus proclaimed

    THROUGH HIS WORKS

    That he was God!!

    Do you deny that Jesus manifested GOD’S ATTRIBUTES??

    Definitely NO!!

    SO  HE WAS THE TRUE GOD MANIFESTED??

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #314220
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 28 2012,20:50)
    Therefore, the other gods you have recognized, even though there were existed are not true gods.


    Hi limjunis,

    You seem to forget that Jesus was one of these other gods mentioned in the Bible. So was Deborah, who led God's nation to victory over the Canaanites. And so was the angel of God who came to Manoah, the father of Samson.

    Do you consider all these servants of Jehovah to be “false gods”?

    #314221
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 29 2012,13:45)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 28 2012,04:04)


    Quote
    There is no scripture in which Jesus ever claimed to be God in the flesh.

    Mike,

    Read again my statement!!

    How many times the pharisees tried to kill him, for the same reason, that Jesus proclaimed

    THROUGH HIS WORKS


    Read again Acts 2:22, Charles.  It was GOD who did the works THROUGH His HOLY SERVANT Jesus Christ.

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 29 2012,13:45)
    SO  HE WAS THE TRUE GOD MANIFESTED??


    God Almighty never prayed to God Almighty, Charles.  But Jesus did – many times. So, “NO”, he wasn't “the true God manifested”. He is, was, and has always been the Son of God – from the very first moment God brought him into existence.

    #314241
    jammin
    Participant

    mike said:God Almighty never prayed to God Almighty, Charles. But Jesus did – many times.

    mike, dont you know how to read your bible??

    why did Christ do that?
    here is what the bible says
    1 cor 11.1
    New International Version (©1984)
    Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

    john 13.15
    New International Version (©1984)
    I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.

    1pet 2.21
    New International Version (©1984)
    To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

    barne's notes on the bible
    Leaving us an example – The apostle does not say that this was the only object for which Christ suffered, but that it was an object, and an important one. The word rendered “example” (ὑπογραμμὸν hupogrammon) occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It means properly “a writing copy,” such as is set for children; or an outline or sketch for a painter to fill up; and then, in general, an example, a pattern for imitation.

    That ye should follow his steps – That we should follow him, as if we trod exactly along behind him, and should place our feet precisely where his were. The meaning is, that there should be the closest imitation or resemblance. The things in which we are to imitate him are specified in the following verses.

    #314260
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=jammin,Sep. 30 2012,12:31][/quote]

    Quote
    mike said:God Almighty never prayed to God Almighty, Charles.  But Jesus did – many times.

    Jammin,

    YES, you anticipated me, thanks,

    but I have something for MIke which I will post!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #314275
    jammin
    Participant

    carmel,

    :)

    #314278
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 29 2012,19:31)
    mike, dont you know how to read your bible??

    1 cor 11.1
    New International Version (©1984)
    Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.


    Are you saying that God Almighty prayed to Himself to show us how it's done?   Hmmmmm…………  

    jammin, why must people like you make the scriptures so illogical and confusing?  Jehovah is the God of Jesus, and as a faithful SERVANT of his God, Jesus prayed to, obeyed, and worshiped His God. And THAT, my friend, is what the scriptures truly teach. You are correct that ONE of us apparently doesn't know how to read his Bible…………. but it's not me.

    #314288
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 29 2012,10:31)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 27 2012,17:14)
    mikebulls'64,

    No, when Yahweh is called the Mighty One of mighty ones, it does not mean He somehow gives support to these other false so-called “mighty ones”……………..


    Frank,

    The title “God of gods” is very simple.  It means that there exist other gods, of whom Jehovah is the God.

    The same goes with “God Most High”, and “God Almighty”.  Those titles simply mean that there exist other gods, of whom Jehovah is Higher, and more Mighty.

    Also, there is no Hebrew or Greek scripture that mentions any “false so-called mighty ones”.

    Frank, I have tediously explained what I thought would have been obvious, ie:  Jehovah could not possibly be the God of gods if there existed no gods for Him to be the God of.

    It seems you just want to close your eyes and cover your ears because these scriptural facts don't fit in with your own pre-conceived doctrines.  You have that right.

    mikebulls'64,

    No, Father Yahweh is not a Mighty One that gives support or power (authority) to worthless so-called false idols/gods/mighty ones that can not speak or move!  :laugh:

    When Scripture plainly teaches that these “idols/gods/mighty ones” of the nations that they have made for themselves can neither speak nor move, I believe it. It is quite sad that you do not and attempt to deceive others into believing that they do or have anything whatsoever to do with Father Yahweh. Even the Messiah Yahshua that you have so conveniently made out to be “a god” clearly said that he can do nothing on his own without his and our Father Yahweh's power [authority], strength or might. In your foolish belief you are only trying to make Father Yahweh out to be just another mere worthless “God” that the world worships.

    I can of my own self DO NOTHING: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who has sent me (Yahchnan [John] 5:30).

    It is quite obvious to me if a being can not do anything on their own imitative without receiving power [authority], strength or might from Father Yahweh that they are in fact no mighty one [“god”] at all!

    You know that when you were of the nations, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray by so-called mighty ones that can not speak (1 Corinthians 12:2).

    And you see and hear how this fellow Paul has convinced and led astray large numbers of people here in Ephesus and in practically the whole province of Asia. He says that man-made mighty ones are no mighty ones at all (Acts 19:26).

    Do men make their own mighty ones? Yes, but they are not mighty ones! (Yeremyah 16:20).

    Their mighty ones are like helpless scarecrows in a cucumber field! They cannot speak, and they need to be carried because they cannot walk. Do not be afraid of such so-called mighty ones, for they can neither harm you nor do you any righteous thing (Yeremyah 10:5).

    Of what value is an idol [“god”], since a man has carved it? Or an image that teaches lies? For he who makes it trusts in his own creation; he makes idols that cannot speak (Habakkuk 2:18).

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #314295
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 30 2012,13:02)
    When Scripture plainly teaches that these “idols/gods/mighty ones” of the nations that they have made for themselves can neither speak nor move, I believe it.


    Was it a man-made idol that couldn't speak or move who turned staffs into snakes, and water into blood, and made frogs cover the land in Egypt?

    Was it a man-made idol that couldn't speak or move who brought great wrath down on God's nation in 2 Kings 3:27?

    Frank, is Jehovah the God of the dead? YES or NO? (What does Jesus teach about it?)

    Yet here you are, insisting that He IS the God of dead, lifeless idols. ???

    #314305
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2012,06:31)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 30 2012,13:02)
    When Scripture plainly teaches that these “idols/gods/mighty ones” of the nations that they have made for themselves can neither speak nor move, I believe it.


    Was it a man-made idol that couldn't speak or move who turned staffs into snakes, and water into blood, and made frogs cover the land in Egypt?

    Was it a man-made idol that couldn't speak or move who brought great wrath down on God's nation in 2 Kings 3:27?

    Frank, is Jehovah the God of the dead?  YES or NO?  (What does Jesus teach about it?)

    Yet here you are, insisting that He IS the God of dead, lifeless idols.   ???

    mikebulls'64,

    There is no mention in Scripture of “a man-made idol [“god”] that couldn't speak [or could] or move [or could] who turned staffs into snakes, and water into blood, and made frogs cover the land in Egypt.” You also need to read 2 Kings 3:27 as it is related within it's proper context, instead of adding your own private deceptive spin to it and in turn perverting Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word to your own destruction! There also is most certainly no mention of “a man-made idol that couldn't [or could] speak or move [or could] who brought great wrath down on God's nation in 2 Kings 3:27″! :laugh:

    No, that would be you that is “insisting that [YOUR “God”] IS the God of dead, lifeless idols.”  :laugh:

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #314309
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    mikebulls'64 actually believes that this idol bovine god Chemosh that the king of Moab sacrificed his son to was an actual living being “god”! :laugh:

    #314310
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2012,03:17)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 29 2012,19:31)
    mike, dont you know how to read your bible??

    1 cor 11.1
    New International Version (©1984)
    Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.


    Are you saying that God Almighty prayed to Himself to show us how it's done?   Hmmmmm…………  

    jammin, why must people like you make the scriptures so illogical and confusing?  Jehovah is the God of Jesus, and as a faithful SERVANT of his God, Jesus prayed to, obeyed, and worshiped His God.  And THAT, my friend, is what the scriptures truly teach.  You are correct that ONE of us apparently doesn't know how to read his Bible…………. but it's not me.


    the bible said Christ leave us an example. you are the one who complicates things boy.

    do not fool people mike. read your bible well and not the doctrines of men

    #314323
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2012,03:17)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 29 2012,19:31)
    mike, dont you know how to read your bible??

    1 cor 11.1
    New International Version (©1984)
    Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.


    Are you saying that God Almighty prayed to Himself to show us how it's done?   Hmmmmm…………  

    jammin, why must people like you make the scriptures so illogical and confusing?  Jehovah is the God of Jesus, and as a faithful SERVANT of his God, Jesus prayed to, obeyed, and worshiped His God.  And THAT, my friend, is what the scriptures truly teach.  You are correct that ONE of us apparently doesn't know how to read his Bible…………. but it's not me.


    Mike,

    Good point.

    #314324
    jammin
    Participant

    limjunus,

    LOL
    are you still not awake from your deep sleep? LOL

    the bible said Christ left us an example. that is what the bible says. believe it or not LOL

    #314326
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 01 2012,06:02)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 29 2012,10:31)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 27 2012,17:14)
    mikebulls'64,

    No, when Yahweh is called the Mighty One of mighty ones, it does not mean He somehow gives support to these other false so-called “mighty ones”……………..


    Frank,

    The title “God of gods” is very simple.  It means that there exist other gods, of whom Jehovah is the God.

    The same goes with “God Most High”, and “God Almighty”.  Those titles simply mean that there exist other gods, of whom Jehovah is Higher, and more Mighty.

    Also, there is no Hebrew or Greek scripture that mentions any “false so-called mighty ones”.

    Frank, I have tediously explained what I thought would have been obvious, ie:  Jehovah could not possibly be the God of gods if there existed no gods for Him to be the God of.

    It seems you just want to close your eyes and cover your ears because these scriptural facts don't fit in with your own pre-conceived doctrines.  You have that right.

    mikebulls'64,

    No, Father Yahweh is not a Mighty One that gives support or power (authority) to worthless so-called false idols/gods/mighty ones that can not speak or move!  :laugh:

    When Scripture plainly teaches that these “idols/gods/mighty ones” of the nations that they have made for themselves can neither speak nor move, I believe it. It is quite sad that you do not and attempt to deceive others into believing that they do or have anything whatsoever to do with Father Yahweh. Even the Messiah Yahshua that you have so conveniently made out to be “a god” clearly said that he can do nothing on his own without his and our Father Yahweh's power [authority], strength or might. In your foolish belief you are only trying to make Father Yahweh out to be just another mere worthless “God” that the world worships.

    I can of my own self DO NOTHING: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who has sent me (Yahchnan [John] 5:30).

    It is quite obvious to me if a being can not do anything on their own imitative without receiving power [authority], strength or might from Father Yahweh that they are in fact no mighty one [“god”] at all!

    You know that when you were of the nations, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray by so-called mighty ones that can not speak (1 Corinthians 12:2).

    And you see and hear how this fellow Paul has convinced and led astray large numbers of people here in Ephesus and in practically the whole province of Asia. He says that man-made mighty ones are no mighty ones at all (Acts 19:26).

    Do men make their own mighty ones? Yes, but they are not mighty ones! (Yeremyah 16:20).

    Their mighty ones are like helpless scarecrows in a cucumber field! They cannot speak, and they need to be carried because they cannot walk. Do not be afraid of such so-called mighty ones, for they can neither harm you nor do you any righteous thing (Yeremyah 10:5).

    Of what value is an idol [“god”], since a man has carved it? Or an image that teaches lies? For he who makes it trusts in his own creation; he makes idols that cannot speak (Habakkuk 2:18).

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    Ephesians 2:12 American Standard Version (ASV)
    12 that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

    all those people separated from Christ,.. living in this world without God.

    We must be in Christ kingdom, then we have the true God.

    #314332
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Oct. 01 2012,22:26)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 01 2012,06:02)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 29 2012,10:31)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 27 2012,17:14)
    mikebulls'64,

    No, when Yahweh is called the Mighty One of mighty ones, it does not mean He somehow gives support to these other false so-called “mighty ones”……………..


    Frank,

    The title “God of gods” is very simple.  It means that there exist other gods, of whom Jehovah is the God.

    The same goes with “God Most High”, and “God Almighty”.  Those titles simply mean that there exist other gods, of whom Jehovah is Higher, and more Mighty.

    Also, there is no Hebrew or Greek scripture that mentions any “false so-called mighty ones”.

    Frank, I have tediously explained what I thought would have been obvious, ie:  Jehovah could not possibly be the God of gods if there existed no gods for Him to be the God of.

    It seems you just want to close your eyes and cover your ears because these scriptural facts don't fit in with your own pre-conceived doctrines.  You have that right.

    mikebulls'64,

    No, Father Yahweh is not a Mighty One that gives support or power (authority) to worthless so-called false idols/gods/mighty ones that can not speak or move!  :laugh:

    When Scripture plainly teaches that these “idols/gods/mighty ones” of the nations that they have made for themselves can neither speak nor move, I believe it. It is quite sad that you do not and attempt to deceive others into believing that they do or have anything whatsoever to do with Father Yahweh. Even the Messiah Yahshua that you have so conveniently made out to be “a god” clearly said that he can do nothing on his own without his and our Father Yahweh's power [authority], strength or might. In your foolish belief you are only trying to make Father Yahweh out to be just another mere worthless “God” that the world worships.

    I can of my own self DO NOTHING: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who has sent me (Yahchnan [John] 5:30).

    It is quite obvious to me if a being can not do anything on their own imitative without receiving power [authority], strength or might from Father Yahweh that they are in fact no mighty one [“god”] at all!

    You know that when you were of the nations, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray by so-called mighty ones that can not speak (1 Corinthians 12:2).

    And you see and hear how this fellow Paul has convinced and led astray large numbers of people here in Ephesus and in practically the whole province of Asia. He says that man-made mighty ones are no mighty ones at all (Acts 19:26).

    Do men make their own mighty ones? Yes, but they are not mighty ones! (Yeremyah 16:20).

    Their mighty ones are like helpless scarecrows in a cucumber field! They cannot speak, and they need to be carried because they cannot walk. Do not be afraid of such so-called mighty ones, for they can neither harm you nor do you any righteous thing (Yeremyah 10:5).

    Of what value is an idol [“god”], since a man has carved it? Or an image that teaches lies? For he who makes it trusts in his own creation; he makes idols that cannot speak (Habakkuk 2:18).

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    Ephesians 2:12 American Standard Version (ASV)
    12 that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

    all those people separated from Christ,.. living in this world without God.

    We must be in Christ kingdom, then we have the true God.


    limjunus,

    Don't know how you feel your response relates to my post, but Father Yahweh's and in turn the Messiah's Kingdom is a future event. This is why we are instructed to commune [“pray”] “Your Kingdom come …”, speaking of His Kingdom to come in the future. It is quite obvious that when Yahshua instructed his disciples in how to commune [“pray”] to Father Yahweh Who is in heaven that it is speakinfg of His Kingdom to come [future tense], because His will is most definately not being done on earth as it is in heaven at this present time.

    As for Ephesians 2:12, this is speaking of the nations [“gentiles, heathen”, those outside of Ysryl) being at one time separate from the commonweath of Ysryl, but are now one with them. The nations were also seperate from Ysryl in that the Jews caused them to be separate in that they erroneously believed that they were not to associate or even eat with those of the nations. They were instead supposed to proclaim the glad tidings of Father Yahweh's Kingdom to the nations as Yahshua did when he came into exdistence in this last time period. One does not need to be in the future Kingdom to have the spirit of true Mighty One, Father Yahweh and His Messiah with or in them.

    Therefore, remember that FORMALLY you who are Gentiles BY BIRTH and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)– remember that AT THAT TIME you were separate from Messiah, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without Yahweh in the world. BUT NOW in the Messiah Yahshua you who ONCE WERE FAR AWAY have BEEN BROUGHT NEAR through the blood of Messiah. For he himself is our peace, who has MADE THE TWO ONE and has DESTROYED THE BARRIER, THE DIVIDING WALL of hostility toward the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself ONE NEW MAN OUT OF THE TWO, thus making peace, and in this ONE BODY to reconcile BOTH OF THEM to Yahweh through his beinf executed, by which he put to death the hostility between them. He
    came and preached peace to you who WERE [past tense] far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we BOTH have access to the Father by one Spirit. Consequently, YOU ARE NO LONGER FOREIGNERS AND ALIENS, but FELLOW CITIZENS WITH Yahweh's people and members of Yahweh's household [or the commonweath or House of Ysryl], built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with the Messiah Yahshua himself as the chief cornerstone – Ephesians 2:11-20: http://bible.cc/ephesians/2-11.htm

    “ALL Nations …”
    http://www.orgsites.com/in/yhwh

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #314360
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 01 2012,05:58)
    mikebulls'64 actually believes that this idol bovine god Chemosh that the king of Moab sacrificed his son to was an actual living being “god”! :laugh:


    Frank,

    Looks like a minotaur. A Greek hero is said to have killed one of those demons; the issue if a woman cursed with unholy lust towards a bull. The four arms are new to me.

    Obviously someone took some liberties with the truth but there are beasts numbered among the host of God; and therefore reasonably among the angels of Satan.

    Revelation 19:4
    King James Version (KJV)

    4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

    Angels and demons do exist and Scripture does call them gods; nevertheless there is but one true God that is the source of all righteous things and the only one worthy to be worshiped. To worship an angel as if he/she were Jehovah is an abomination.

    #314371
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 30 2012,16:05)
    There is no mention in Scripture of “a man-made idol [“god”] that couldn't speak [or could] or move [or could] who turned staffs into snakes, and water into blood, and made frogs cover the land in Egypt.”


    Okay Frank,

    Then by whose power did the priests of Egypt match the first three signs and wonders that Jehovah did through Moses?  For example, can human beings turn staffs into snakes?  Yet the Egyptian priests WERE able to do this – and turn water into blood, and make frogs cover the land.  

    1.  By whose power did these priest do these things, Frank?

    2.  And who were the “gods of Egypt” that Jehovah punished?  (Exodus 12:12, Numbers 33:4, etc.)  Were these “gods of Egypt” merely man-made idols that couldn't speak or move?  How does Jehovah “punish”, or “bring judgment upon” a man-made idol that couldn't speak or move?

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 30 2012,16:05)
    You also need to read 2 Kings 3:27 as it is related within it's proper context………….

    There also is most certainly no mention of “a man-made idol that couldn't [or could] speak or move [or could] who brought great wrath down on God's nation in 2 Kings 3:27″!


    Okay, let's discuss the context of 2 Kings 3 then.  The way I understand it, Elisha told the three kings that Jehovah would deliver Moab into their hands.  (3:18)  

    Then the Israelites slaughtered the Moabites, cut down their trees, and stopped up their springs and wells with stones.(3:24-25)

    When all seemed lost, the king of Moab tried to fight through to the king of Edom. (3:26)

    When that failed, he sacrificed his son (presumably to his god Chemosh).  Immediately after this sacrifice, a severe wrath came upon the Israelites, causing them to flee for home instead of continuing their destruction of Moab.  (3:27)

    3.  WHO brought this wrath down upon the Israelites after the king sacrificed his son to his god Chemosh?

    #314372
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 02 2012,01:58)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 01 2012,05:58)
    mikebulls'64 actually believes that this idol bovine god Chemosh that the king of Moab sacrificed his son to was an actual living being “god”! :laugh:


    Frank,

    Angels and demons do exist and Scripture does call them gods…….


    Thank you Kerwin!  Some people just can't get this SCRIPTURAL teaching through their heads, because they are blinded by what they've been taught by men.

    The Bible speaks of numerous gods, of whom Jehovah is the God.  And scripture NEVER uses the words “false god”, or “so-called god”.  So when the gods of Egypt turned staffs into snakes, it doesn't mean that man-made idols that cannot speak or move somehow had the power to do this.

    Frank has a lot to learn about what the scriptures truly teach.  For example:

    Daniel 10
    13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

    Who was this “prince of the Persian kingdom”?  Surely not a man, since a man could not detain an angel of God, right?

    Daniel 10
    20 He said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Now I am about to return to engage in battle with the prince of Persia. When I go, the prince of Greece is coming.

    Who is this “prince of Greece”?  Again, obviously not a human being.

    We know from scripture that Jehovah gave Satan the kingdoms of the world.  (Luke 4:6)

    We know that powerful demons exist.  And we know that demons and angels are called gods in scripture.

    How hard is it to piece together that Satan has handed over the authority of his many kingdoms to those demons who serve him, and that each kingdom worships the demon(s) placed over their kingdom as their god(s)?

    Notice that it was Michael who came to Daniel's angel's assistance and battled against the “prince of Persia”.  (Dan 10:13)  Compare that to who Michael battles against in Rev 12:7……………. “the dragon and his angels”.

    Frank, these angels of Satan, or “princes”, are the gods of the nations they rule over.  They can do nothing for or against those nations if not allowed by Jehovah, the God of gods.  But, just as Jehovah DOES allow mankind to rule over the animals as we see fit – for the most part, He also allows these spiritual sons of God to rule over their nations as they see fit – for the most part.  (Consider the things Jehovah ALLOWED Satan to do to Job.  He had free reign over Job – up to a certain point.)

    I believe this is similar to the Moabite god Chemosh being ALLOWED by Jehovah to act in defense of his kingdom.  He had free reign over the Israelites – up to a certain point.  He was ALLOWED by his own God to bring wrath, but not physical harm, down upon the Israelites to drive them away.

    Consider what Paul said in Ephesians 6:12……..
    12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 

    These “rulers”, “authorities”, “powers” and “spiritual forces” are REAL, Frank. We battle against them. They are not man-made idols that cannot speak or move.

    Anyway, I'm quite sure that all this is wasted on you, for you are set in your ways, and don't really care what the scriptures actually teach.

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