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John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • September 2, 2012 at 5:45 am#311455
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,

    Those words were added in and you know it;
    mans doctrines are very important to you, aye?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    September 2, 2012 at 6:30 am#311456
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2012,08:38)

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 01 2012,13:37)
    Mike,

    Literally ” Son of God ”

    Spiritually  “GOD”.


    No Charles,

    “Son OF God” means exactly what it sounds like.  And just as the “son OF the President” is not also the President himself, the Son OF God is not also the God he is the Son OF.

    One more thing:
    Job 1:6
    Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

    Not only did Satan see Jehovah, but he had a long conversation with Him about Job.  It's right there in the scriptures for all to to see.


    Quote
    Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them

    Mike,

    you need milk not meat

    THE WORD IS LORD NOT GOD THE MOST HIGH.

    AND THERE ARE MANY GODS AND MANY LORDS.

    HEBREWS 1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    SO GOD NEVER SPOKE TO SATAN OR TO ANYBODY DIRECTLY.

    HE SPOKE TO JOB.

    GOD WAS NEVER EVER VISIBLE TO ANY BODY.

    THE SON REVEALED HIM.

    AND SATAN WAS NOT ALLOWED TO BE AWARE OF IT,SINCE HE WAS IN CONFLICT WITH HIM AND WANTED TO KILL THE MESSIAH. GOD HIMSELF IN FLESH.

    September 2, 2012 at 4:14 pm#311494
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 03 2012,00:30)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2012,08:38)

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 01 2012,13:37)
    Mike,

    Literally ” Son of God ”

    Spiritually  “GOD”.


    No Charles,

    “Son OF God” means exactly what it sounds like.  And just as the “son OF the President” is not also the President himself, the Son OF God is not also the God he is the Son OF.

    One more thing:
    Job 1:6
    Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

    Not only did Satan see Jehovah, but he had a long conversation with Him about Job.  It's right there in the scriptures for all to to see.


    Quote
    Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them

    Mike,

    you need milk not meat

    THE WORD IS LORD NOT GOD THE MOST HIGH.

    AND THERE ARE MANY GODS AND MANY LORDS.

    HEBREWS 1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,    

    SO GOD NEVER SPOKE TO SATAN OR TO ANYBODY DIRECTLY.

    HE SPOKE TO JOB.

    GOD WAS NEVER EVER VISIBLE TO ANY BODY.

    THE SON REVEALED HIM.

    AND SATAN WAS NOT ALLOWED TO BE AWARE OF IT,SINCE HE WAS IN CONFLICT WITH HIM AND WANTED TO KILL THE MESSIAH. GOD HIMSELF IN FLESH.


    charles

    were have you study ???

    Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
    Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
    Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
    Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

    did not men change the name of GOD for LORD ,you beating the air friend

    September 2, 2012 at 4:37 pm#311499
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 02 2012,00:30)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them

    Mike,

    you need milk not meat

    THE WORD IS LORD NOT GOD THE MOST HIGH.


    The word is actually “YHWH”, which is the personal name for God Most High. And yes, Satan came into His presence along with all the other angels, and had a long conversation with Him about Job.

    September 2, 2012 at 4:41 pm#311501
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,19:44)
    Hi Mike, (I have reposed this for you) here is how it lines up…

    And the Word [HolySpirit] was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
    (and we beheld [the HolySpirit's] his glory, the glory as of
    the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)


    Okay Ed. And since you claim that the Holy Spirit of God actually IS God Most High, let me readjust your paraphrase for you:

    And the HolySpirit/God Most High was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld the HolySpirit's/God Most High's glory, the glory as of
    the only begotten of the Father    , full of grace and truth.

    Why would God Most High dwell on earth with the glory of “THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER”, Ed? ???

    September 2, 2012 at 11:04 pm#311543
    Ed J
    Participant

    HolySpirit/God Most High's spirit

    September 2, 2012 at 11:09 pm#311544
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

                       The HolySpirit's glory is seen in his children.
           As “The Word” begot Jesus so also does “The Word” beget us

          the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14) com-
          pared     with the glory which shall be revealed in us    . (Romans 8:18)

          The Word of the oath, which was since the law,
          maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. (Hebrews 7:28)

          1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of
          incorruptible, by “The Word” of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

          Of his own will begat he us with “The Word” of truth,
          that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    September 3, 2012 at 1:29 am#311562
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Biblical pre-existence

    We fully realize that questioning the pre-existence of the “person” Yeshua places us considerably outside the mainstream. However, as previously mentioned, when we are dealing with a God that has the ability to “… call things that are not as though they are” — we must be careful not to project literal meaning to things that He intended as figurative. That the perpetrators of the Trinitarian view are inconsistent when they apply pre-existence only to the Anointed Yeshua is easily proven.

    There are several people in the Bible that were described as pre-existing. King David was one of those. The Psalmist describes his pre-existence in Psalm 139:14-16:

    “I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them” (emphasis mine).

    While this Psalm is a remarkable description of the power and planning of the great YEHOVAH God, no theologian tries to literalize David's pre-existence from this text. How did David pre-exist? That's right, in the Mind and foreknowledge of YEHOVAH God.

    Jeremiah is also similarly alluded to —

    Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth from the womb I sanctified you and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations (Jer. 1: 4-5, emphasis mine).

    Could not the above scriptures be construed to mean that Jeremiah pre-existed in some “spiritual” form before he came to inhabit his earthly body? After all, YEHOVAH “knew” him before his birth and also “sanctified” him before the womb, right? Or does it make more sense that YEHOVAH was saying that he was calling “things that are not as though they are”?

    The omnipotent and omniscient God also speaks of Cyrus, king of the Medean Empire, more than 150 years before the events described occurred. He is even referred to as YEHOVAH's anointed in the work that he was to accomplish on behalf of the captive Judahites:

    Who says of Cyrus, He is My shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure, even saying to Jerusalem, you shall be built, and to the temple, your foundation shall be laid. Thus says the Lord to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have held — to subdue nations before him and loose the armor of kings. To open before him the double doors, so that the gates will not be shut (Is. 44:28- 45:1, NKJV emphasis mine).

    As you can see for yourself, in this example Cyrus had YEHOVAH's anointing to perform good things for the Judahites that were in Babylonian captivity. He was the one that authorized their return to Palestine to rebuild the walls and temple of Jerusalem that had been razed by the forces of Nebuchadnezzar, first king of the Neo-Babylonian Empire circa 586 BC. As remarkable in scope as is the prophesy of Isaiah that recorded these events almost two centuries before they occurred, no theologian tries to make the pre-existence of Cyrus literal. So WHY do this with the Messiah? Are you getting the point?

    Even Paul alludes to a similar pre-existence as Jeremiah's in Galatians 1:15-16 by saying,

    But when it was well-pleasing to the one who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me (on account of his generosity) to reveal his son to me, so that I might announce him to the gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood.

    So what can we say to all of this? Simply this. The scriptures that are used to prove that Yeshua of Nazareth pre-existed also fall into the same category. It should also be stressed that the literal pre-existence of the Anointed is in no way necessary to our salvation! It is only relevant to the view of the “Holy Trinity”. This view creates the difficulty of explaining how that God is one and yet two or three. Do you remember discussing this question in its various forms and solutions? Obsession with a particular theory will cause one to interpret every scripture possible within the context of that theory. Such has been the effect of the “Holy Trinity” view on scholars for generations.

    Pre-Existence Of The Anointed Not Required

    Let's prove together that the literal pre-existence of the Messiah is not required to accomplish the purposes for which he was anointed. In the same way that Cyrus' pre-existence was not a requirement to carry out the pre-existing purposes of YEHOVAH God, the same can be said concerning Yeshua, the Anointed. Let's also number them so we can keep track.

    1) His pre-existence was not required for his person and/or personality as the Anointed. He was certainly “material” before his death and even emphasized his continued “materiality” after his resurrection. Luke 24:39 records it thus:

    Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.

    Milton Burtt makes a very appropriate observation concerning this subject:

    To theorize at this point and try to imagine an immaterial pre-existent personality distinct from the body is nothing short of subtle spiritualism (op. cit., p. 7).

    2) The pre-existence of the Messiah was also NOT required for him to be the “only begotten son” of YEHOVAH God. The scriptures clearly record that he was born of the woman Mary — his father being Joseph the carpenter (Luke 4:22). He had a NORMAL, HUMAN BIRTH! For the same reason, however, that Adam's pre-existence was NOT required for him to be physically created by YEHOVAH God, neither did the Messiah (the “last Adam”) need to pre-exist to be spiritually “begotten” of the father. I doubt whether any would argue that Adam did not pre-exist in the Mind of YEHOVAH before his “advent,” so why should the Messiah NOT also have pre-existed in YEHOVAH's Mind before his “advent”? As you can see, the uniqueness of both Adam and the Messiah need have nothing whatsoever to do with their personal pre-existence, but rather with the existence of an omniscient Almighty God Who planned them in his mind from before Creation.

    3) Pre-existence was not essential for the power resident in the Anointed Yeshua. It was by the power of YEHOVAH's spirit (or breath) that the Messiah performed signs after his anointing. The Messiah said,

    But if I am casting out spirit beings by the spirit of God, God's kingdom has appeared to you (Matt. 12:28, emphasis mine).

    This truth is echoed and placed in the context of “anointing” power by Peter in Acts 10:38:

    [You know] how God anointed that Yeshua from Nazareth with holy breath and power, who went about doing good deeds and healing all those who were oppressed by the Accuser, because God was with him (emphasis mine).

    As we can see, without the “anointing” of YEHOVAH God and the fact that “God was with him” he would have been powerless. This engenders the question of how the omnipotent God became powerless in the first place. We might as well turn to the old enigma that asks, “Could YEHOVAH God create a rock that He was unable to lift?”

    4) Pre-existence was also not involved in the atonement of the Anointed nor was it at all necessary. On the contrary, human existence was what was called for. Peter taught plainly that Christians were redeemed by the blood of the Messiah —

    On the contrary, you were delivered with the valuable, spotless and unblemished blood of a 'lamb' — that is, the Anointed One's blood (1 Pet. 1:19).

    In this, Peter was echoing the pattern of atonement laid down in the Old Testament system as a shadow and type of what was to come. “It is the blood that makes atonement for the soul” (Lev. 17:11). In fact, the Ano
    inted's humanity is what is being stressed in his subsequent sacrifice as the fulfillment of the old by the Hebrew writer. After making it clear that the blood of bulls and goats would not suffice for atonement, the writer posits that human flesh and blood was required —

    Therefore, brothers, since we have freedom of speech by the blood of Yeshua, to the point of entering the holy places (By his blood he made new for us a new and living way through the veil, which is, his flesh), and since we have a great priest over God's house, we should come near…. (Heb. 10:19-21, emphasis mine).

    As everyone knows, blood and flesh are characteristics of human and earthly organisms and certainly require no pre-existence.

    5) Pre-existence was not an essential requisite for the knowledge (revelation) that the Messiah received. It should be noted that the Messiah is referred to by Moses as a prophet like himself (Deut. 18:15). As Moses received his power and knowledge through YEHOVAH, the same was true of the Anointed Yeshua. Luke explains his human mental capacity as he grows in wisdom, knowledge and favor in Luke 2:52. There is no record of the Messiah performing any miracles or speaking prophetically before his baptism by John when the spirit of YEHOVAH God descended upon him. It was immediately thereafter that Luke connects the power of YEHOVAH with the Messiah. After his baptism and testing by the Adversary, Luke notes that the Messiah,

    … returned in the power of the spirit to Galilee, and a report of him went out through all the surrounding region (Luke 4:14, emphasis mine).

    It was from this very context that Luke records the remarkable confrontation between the Messiah and the townspeople of his youth. Luke says,

    So he came to Nazareth where he had been brought up. And according to the custom, he entered the synagogue on the Sabbath and stood up to read…. he found the place where it was written: 'The Lord's breath is upon me. On account of this, he has anointed me to an- nounce a good message to the poor; he has sent me forth to herald a release to the captives and a restoration of sight to the blind; to send forth in freedom those who had been crushed; to herald the Lord's acceptable year (Luke 4:16-19).

    The next verse records the rapt attention paid to him by those listening. Why, all of a sudden, did they give him such scrutiny? Because of his newly required reputation! News of him had preceded his return to Nazareth (Luke 4:14). It was after the Messiah's “anointing” that he was able to receive their undivided attention and it was only then that he said,

    Today this writing is fulfilled in your hearing (Luke 4:21, emphasis mine).

    His neighbors were flabbergasted by what had transpired. The people that had known him and his mother and father demonstrate undeniably that the Messiah had never previously exercised prophetic or miraculous abilities. “Today”, says the Messiah, this writing is fulfilled.

    What occurred required NO pre-existence of any kind any more than did the calling of Moses, Amos, or any other prophet singled out by YEHOVAH God to receive power and/or revelation. And as previously mentioned, the Messiah often described his teaching as not his own but his Father's. There could be much more said about the character of the Anointed Yeshua and the honor, power, and glory that he received from his Father, but none of these require pre-existence. On the contrary, they argue against pre-existence. If the Messiah was God, he would not have needed to be given anything at all. Some have argued that all the things received by him were already his by right. If that was the case and they were already his — then how did he receive them?

    This question falls into the same category as the question that has bothered generations of Christians, viz how can God be one and also two or three? As before mentioned, scriptures are often interpreted in accordance with a persons pre-conceived notions — his paradigm. Burtt put it like this: “We become so obsessed with a certain theory that we read it into every passage in the Bible” (ibid., p. 14).
    SOURCE

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    …

    September 3, 2012 at 2:21 am#311565
    terraricca
    Participant

    f

    HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU PASTE THAT COMMENT OF YOUR ,????:D

    September 3, 2012 at 2:43 am#311566
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2012,12:29)
    Biblical pre-existence

    We fully realize that questioning the pre-existence of the “person” Yeshua places us considerably outside the mainstream. However, as previously mentioned, when we are dealing with a God that has the ability to “… call things that are not as though they are” — we must be careful not to project literal meaning to things that He intended as figurative. That the perpetrators of the Trinitarian view are inconsistent when they apply pre-existence only to the Anointed Yeshua is easily proven.

    There are several people in the Bible that were described as pre-existing. King David was one of those. The Psalmist describes his pre-existence in Psalm 139:14-16:

    “I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them” (emphasis mine).

    While this Psalm is a remarkable description of the power and planning of the great YEHOVAH God, no theologian tries to literalize David's pre-existence from this text. How did David pre-exist? That's right, in the Mind and foreknowledge of YEHOVAH God.

    Jeremiah is also similarly alluded to —

    Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth from the womb I sanctified you and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations (Jer. 1: 4-5, emphasis mine).

    Could not the above scriptures be construed to mean that Jeremiah pre-existed in some “spiritual” form before he came to inhabit his earthly body? After all, YEHOVAH “knew” him before his birth and also “sanctified” him before the womb, right? Or does it make more sense that YEHOVAH was saying that he was calling “things that are not as though they are”?

    The omnipotent and omniscient God also speaks of Cyrus, king of the Medean Empire, more than 150 years before the events described occurred. He is even referred to as YEHOVAH's anointed in the work that he was to accomplish on behalf of the captive Judahites:

    Who says of Cyrus, He is My shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure, even saying to Jerusalem, you shall be built, and to the temple, your foundation shall be laid. Thus says the Lord to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have held — to subdue nations before him and loose the armor of kings. To open before him the double doors, so that the gates will not be shut (Is. 44:28- 45:1, NKJV emphasis mine).

    As you can see for yourself, in this example Cyrus had YEHOVAH's anointing to perform good things for the Judahites that were in Babylonian captivity. He was the one that authorized their return to Palestine to rebuild the walls and temple of Jerusalem that had been razed by the forces of Nebuchadnezzar, first king of the Neo-Babylonian Empire circa 586 BC. As remarkable in scope as is the prophesy of Isaiah that recorded these events almost two centuries before they occurred, no theologian tries to make the pre-existence of Cyrus literal. So WHY do this with the Messiah? Are you getting the point?

    Even Paul alludes to a similar pre-existence as Jeremiah's in Galatians 1:15-16 by saying,

    But when it was well-pleasing to the one who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me (on account of his generosity) to reveal his son to me, so that I might announce him to the gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood.

    So what can we say to all of this? Simply this. The scriptures that are used to prove that Yeshua of Nazareth pre-existed also fall into the same category. It should also be stressed that the literal pre-existence of the Anointed is in no way necessary to our salvation! It is only relevant to the view of the “Holy Trinity”. This view creates the difficulty of explaining how that God is one and yet two or three. Do you remember discussing this question in its various forms and solutions? Obsession with a particular theory will cause one to interpret every scripture possible within the context of that theory. Such has been the effect of the “Holy Trinity” view on scholars for generations.

    Pre-Existence Of The Anointed Not Required

    Let's prove together that the literal pre-existence of the Messiah is not required to accomplish the purposes for which he was anointed. In the same way that Cyrus' pre-existence was not a requirement to carry out the pre-existing purposes of YEHOVAH God, the same can be said concerning Yeshua, the Anointed. Let's also number them so we can keep track.

    1) His pre-existence was not required for his person and/or personality as the Anointed. He was certainly “material” before his death and even emphasized his continued “materiality” after his resurrection. Luke 24:39 records it thus:

    Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.

    Milton Burtt makes a very appropriate observation concerning this subject:

    To theorize at this point and try to imagine an immaterial pre-existent personality distinct from the body is nothing short of subtle spiritualism (op. cit., p. 7).

    2) The pre-existence of the Messiah was also NOT required for him to be the “only begotten son” of YEHOVAH God. The scriptures clearly record that he was born of the woman Mary — his father being Joseph the carpenter (Luke 4:22). He had a NORMAL, HUMAN BIRTH! For the same reason, however, that Adam's pre-existence was NOT required for him to be physically created by YEHOVAH God, neither did the Messiah (the “last Adam”) need to pre-exist to be spiritually “begotten” of the father. I doubt whether any would argue that Adam did not pre-exist in the Mind of YEHOVAH before his “advent,” so why should the Messiah NOT also have pre-existed in YEHOVAH's Mind before his “advent”? As you can see, the uniqueness of both Adam and the Messiah need have nothing whatsoever to do with their personal pre-existence, but rather with the existence of an omniscient Almighty God Who planned them in his mind from before Creation.

    3) Pre-existence was not essential for the power resident in the Anointed Yeshua. It was by the power of YEHOVAH's spirit (or breath) that the Messiah performed signs after his anointing. The Messiah said,

    But if I am casting out spirit beings by the spirit of God, God's kingdom has appeared to you (Matt. 12:28, emphasis mine).

    This truth is echoed and placed in the context of “anointing” power by Peter in Acts 10:38:

    [You know] how God anointed that Yeshua from Nazareth with holy breath and power, who went about doing good deeds and healing all those who were oppressed by the Accuser, because God was with him (emphasis mine).

    As we can see, without the “anointing” of YEHOVAH God and the fact that “God was with him” he would have been powerless. This engenders the question of how the omnipotent God became powerless in the first place. We might as well turn to the old enigma that asks, “Could YEHOVAH God create a rock that He was unable to lift?”

    4) Pre-existence was also not involved in the atonement of the Anointed nor was it at all necessary. On the contrary, human existence was what was called for. Peter taught plainly that Christians were redeemed by the blood of the Messiah —

    On the contrary, you were delivered with the valuable, spotless and unblemished blood of a 'lamb' — that is, the Anointed One's blood (1 Pet
    . 1:19).

    In this, Peter was echoing the pattern of atonement laid down in the Old Testament system as a shadow and type of what was to come. “It is the blood that makes atonement for the soul” (Lev. 17:11). In fact, the Anointed's humanity is what is being stressed in his subsequent sacrifice as the fulfillment of the old by the Hebrew writer. After making it clear that the blood of bulls and goats would not suffice for atonement, the writer posits that human flesh and blood was required —

    Therefore, brothers, since we have freedom of speech by the blood of Yeshua, to the point of entering the holy places (By his blood he made new for us a new and living way through the veil, which is, his flesh), and since we have a great priest over God's house, we should come near…. (Heb. 10:19-21, emphasis mine).

    As everyone knows, blood and flesh are characteristics of human and earthly organisms and certainly require no pre-existence.

    5) Pre-existence was not an essential requisite for the knowledge (revelation) that the Messiah received. It should be noted that the Messiah is referred to by Moses as a prophet like himself (Deut. 18:15). As Moses received his power and knowledge through YEHOVAH, the same was true of the Anointed Yeshua. Luke explains his human mental capacity as he grows in wisdom, knowledge and favor in Luke 2:52. There is no record of the Messiah performing any miracles or speaking prophetically before his baptism by John when the spirit of YEHOVAH God descended upon him. It was immediately thereafter that Luke connects the power of YEHOVAH with the Messiah. After his baptism and testing by the Adversary, Luke notes that the Messiah,

    … returned in the power of the spirit to Galilee, and a report of him went out through all the surrounding region (Luke 4:14, emphasis mine).

    It was from this very context that Luke records the remarkable confrontation between the Messiah and the townspeople of his youth. Luke says,

    So he came to Nazareth where he had been brought up. And according to the custom, he entered the synagogue on the Sabbath and stood up to read…. he found the place where it was written: 'The Lord's breath is upon me. On account of this, he has anointed me to an- nounce a good message to the poor; he has sent me forth to herald a release to the captives and a restoration of sight to the blind; to send forth in freedom those who had been crushed; to herald the Lord's acceptable year (Luke 4:16-19).

    The next verse records the rapt attention paid to him by those listening. Why, all of a sudden, did they give him such scrutiny? Because of his newly required reputation! News of him had preceded his return to Nazareth (Luke 4:14). It was after the Messiah's “anointing” that he was able to receive their undivided attention and it was only then that he said,

    Today this writing is fulfilled in your hearing (Luke 4:21, emphasis mine).

    His neighbors were flabbergasted by what had transpired. The people that had known him and his mother and father demonstrate undeniably that the Messiah had never previously exercised prophetic or miraculous abilities. “Today”, says the Messiah, this writing is fulfilled.

    What occurred required NO pre-existence of any kind any more than did the calling of Moses, Amos, or any other prophet singled out by YEHOVAH God to receive power and/or revelation. And as previously mentioned, the Messiah often described his teaching as not his own but his Father's. There could be much more said about the character of the Anointed Yeshua and the honor, power, and glory that he received from his Father, but none of these require pre-existence. On the contrary, they argue against pre-existence. If the Messiah was God, he would not have needed to be given anything at all. Some have argued that all the things received by him were already his by right. If that was the case and they were already his — then how did he receive them?

    This question falls into the same category as the question that has bothered generations of Christians, viz how can God be one and also two or three? As before mentioned, scriptures are often interpreted in accordance with a persons pre-conceived notions — his paradigm. Burtt put it like this: “We become so obsessed with a certain theory that we read it into every passage in the Bible” (ibid., p. 14).
    SOURCE

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    …


    My personal note on a Scripture reference in excerpt of this article:

    Scripture Reference: Then the word of Yahweh came unto me, saying, Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth from the womb I set you apart [“sanctified you”] and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations (Yeremyah 1: 4-5).

    My Personal Note: This passage can be compared to Yahshua's communication [“prayer”] with his and our Father Yahweh in his saying:

    “And now, Father,  esteem [“glorify”] me in Your presence with the esteem I had with You before the world began (Yahchanan [John] 17:5).

    Yahshua here was not giving reference to his LITERALLY pre-existing with his and our Father Yahweh as an actual being before the world began. The fact is, Yahshua was giving reference to the esteem [“glory”] that he had with his and our Father Yahweh before the world began, not to his pre-existing as an actual being with Him before the world began.

    Also see:

    “The Glory I Had With You Before The World Was”
    Yahchanan [John] 17:5

    …

    September 3, 2012 at 2:50 am#311567
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 03 2012,13:21)
    f

    HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU PASTE THAT COMMENT OF YOUR ,????:D


    Pieeear,

    Once! Here it is again! Count it! :D

    You might also want to read it and pay special attention to the Scriptural references in context with Scripture as a whole this time! :laugh:

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2012,12:29)
    Biblical pre-existence

    We fully realize that questioning the pre-existence of the “person” Yeshua places us considerably outside the mainstream. However, as previously mentioned, when we are dealing with a God that has the ability to “… call things that are not as though they are” — we must be careful not to project literal meaning to things that He intended as figurative. That the perpetrators of the Trinitarian view are inconsistent when they apply pre-existence only to the Anointed Yeshua is easily proven.

    There are several people in the Bible that were described as pre-existing. King David was one of those. The Psalmist describes his pre-existence in Psalm 139:14-16:

    “I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them” (emphasis mine).

    While this Psalm is a remarkable description of the power and planning of the great YEHOVAH God, no theologian tries to literalize David's pre-existence from this text. How did David pre-exist? That's right, in the Mind and foreknowledge of YEHOVAH God.

    Jeremiah is also similarly alluded to —

    Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth from the womb I sanctified you and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations (Jer. 1: 4-5, emphasis mine).

    Could not the above scriptures be construed to mean that Jeremiah pre-existed in some “spiritual” form before he came to inhabit his earthly body? After all, YEHOVAH “knew” him before his birth and also “sanctified” him before the womb, right? Or does it make more sense that YEHOVAH was saying that he was calling “things that are not as though they are”?

    The omnipotent and omniscient God also speaks of Cyrus, king of the Medean Empire, more than 150 years before the events described occurred. He is even referred to as YEHOVAH's anointed in the work that he was to accomplish on behalf of the captive Judahites:

    Who says of Cyrus, He is My shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure, even saying to Jerusalem, you shall be built, and to the temple, your foundation shall be laid. Thus says the Lord to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have held — to subdue nations before him and loose the armor of kings. To open before him the double doors, so that the gates will not be shut (Is. 44:28- 45:1, NKJV emphasis mine).

    As you can see for yourself, in this example Cyrus had YEHOVAH's anointing to perform good things for the Judahites that were in Babylonian captivity. He was the one that authorized their return to Palestine to rebuild the walls and temple of Jerusalem that had been razed by the forces of Nebuchadnezzar, first king of the Neo-Babylonian Empire circa 586 BC. As remarkable in scope as is the prophesy of Isaiah that recorded these events almost two centuries before they occurred, no theologian tries to make the pre-existence of Cyrus literal. So WHY do this with the Messiah? Are you getting the point?

    Even Paul alludes to a similar pre-existence as Jeremiah's in Galatians 1:15-16 by saying,

    But when it was well-pleasing to the one who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me (on account of his generosity) to reveal his son to me, so that I might announce him to the gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood.

    So what can we say to all of this? Simply this. The scriptures that are used to prove that Yeshua of Nazareth pre-existed also fall into the same category. It should also be stressed that the literal pre-existence of the Anointed is in no way necessary to our salvation! It is only relevant to the view of the “Holy Trinity”. This view creates the difficulty of explaining how that God is one and yet two or three. Do you remember discussing this question in its various forms and solutions? Obsession with a particular theory will cause one to interpret every scripture possible within the context of that theory. Such has been the effect of the “Holy Trinity” view on scholars for generations.

    Pre-Existence Of The Anointed Not Required

    Let's prove together that the literal pre-existence of the Messiah is not required to accomplish the purposes for which he was anointed. In the same way that Cyrus' pre-existence was not a requirement to carry out the pre-existing purposes of YEHOVAH God, the same can be said concerning Yeshua, the Anointed. Let's also number them so we can keep track.

    1) His pre-existence was not required for his person and/or personality as the Anointed. He was certainly “material” before his death and even emphasized his continued “materiality” after his resurrection. Luke 24:39 records it thus:

    Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.

    Milton Burtt makes a very appropriate observation concerning this subject:

    To theorize at this point and try to imagine an immaterial pre-existent personality distinct from the body is nothing short of subtle spiritualism (op. cit., p. 7).

    2) The pre-existence of the Messiah was also NOT required for him to be the “only begotten son” of YEHOVAH God. The scriptures clearly record that he was born of the woman Mary — his father being Joseph the carpenter (Luke 4:22). He had a NORMAL, HUMAN BIRTH! For the same reason, however, that Adam's pre-existence was NOT required for him to be physically created by YEHOVAH God, neither did the Messiah (the “last Adam”) need to pre-exist to be spiritually “begotten” of the father. I doubt whether any would argue that Adam did not pre-exist in the Mind of YEHOVAH before his “advent,” so why should the Messiah NOT also have pre-existed in YEHOVAH's Mind before his “advent”? As you can see, the uniqueness of both Adam and the Messiah need have nothing whatsoever to do with their personal pre-existence, but rather with the existence of an omniscient Almighty God Who planned them in his mind from before Creation.

    3) Pre-existence was not essential for the power resident in the Anointed Yeshua. It was by the power of YEHOVAH's spirit (or breath) that the Messiah performed signs after his anointing. The Messiah said,

    But if I am casting out spirit beings by the spirit of God, God's kingdom has
    appeared to you (Matt. 12:28, emphasis mine).

    This truth is echoed and placed in the context of “anointing” power by Peter in Acts 10:38:

    [You know] how God anointed that Yeshua from Nazareth with holy breath and power, who went about doing good deeds and healing all those who were oppressed by the Accuser, because God was with him (emphasis mine).

    As we can see, without the “anointing” of YEHOVAH God and the fact that “God was with him” he would have been powerless. This engenders the question of how the omnipotent God became powerless in the first place. We might as well turn to the old enigma that asks, “Could YEHOVAH God create a rock that He was unable to lift?”

    4) Pre-existence was also not involved in the atonement of the Anointed nor was it at all necessary. On the contrary, human existence was what was called for. Peter taught plainly that Christians were redeemed by the blood of the Messiah —

    On the contrary, you were delivered with the valuable, spotless and unblemished blood of a 'lamb' — that is, the Anointed One's blood (1 Pet. 1:19).

    In this, Peter was echoing the pattern of atonement laid down in the Old Testament system as a shadow and type of what was to come. “It is the blood that makes atonement for the soul” (Lev. 17:11). In fact, the Anointed's humanity is what is being stressed in his subsequent sacrifice as the fulfillment of the old by the Hebrew writer. After making it clear that the blood of bulls and goats would not suffice for atonement, the writer posits that human flesh and blood was required —

    Therefore, brothers, since we have freedom of speech by the blood of Yeshua, to the point of entering the holy places (By his blood he made new for us a new and living way through the veil, which is, his flesh), and since we have a great priest over God's house, we should come near…. (Heb. 10:19-21, emphasis mine).

    As everyone knows, blood and flesh are characteristics of human and earthly organisms and certainly require no pre-existence.

    5) Pre-existence was not an essential requisite for the knowledge (revelation) that the Messiah received. It should be noted that the Messiah is referred to by Moses as a prophet like himself (Deut. 18:15). As Moses received his power and knowledge through YEHOVAH, the same was true of the Anointed Yeshua. Luke explains his human mental capacity as he grows in wisdom, knowledge and favor in Luke 2:52. There is no record of the Messiah performing any miracles or speaking prophetically before his baptism by John when the spirit of YEHOVAH God descended upon him. It was immediately thereafter that Luke connects the power of YEHOVAH with the Messiah. After his baptism and testing by the Adversary, Luke notes that the Messiah,

    … returned in the power of the spirit to Galilee, and a report of him went out through all the surrounding region (Luke 4:14, emphasis mine).

    It was from this very context that Luke records the remarkable confrontation between the Messiah and the townspeople of his youth. Luke says,

    So he came to Nazareth where he had been brought up. And according to the custom, he entered the synagogue on the Sabbath and stood up to read…. he found the place where it was written: 'The Lord's breath is upon me. On account of this, he has anointed me to an- nounce a good message to the poor; he has sent me forth to herald a release to the captives and a restoration of sight to the blind; to send forth in freedom those who had been crushed; to herald the Lord's acceptable year (Luke 4:16-19).

    The next verse records the rapt attention paid to him by those listening. Why, all of a sudden, did they give him such scrutiny? Because of his newly required reputation! News of him had preceded his return to Nazareth (Luke 4:14). It was after the Messiah's “anointing” that he was able to receive their undivided attention and it was only then that he said,

    Today this writing is fulfilled in your hearing (Luke 4:21, emphasis mine).

    His neighbors were flabbergasted by what had transpired. The people that had known him and his mother and father demonstrate undeniably that the Messiah had never previously exercised prophetic or miraculous abilities. “Today”, says the Messiah, this writing is fulfilled.

    What occurred required NO pre-existence of any kind any more than did the calling of Moses, Amos, or any other prophet singled out by YEHOVAH God to receive power and/or revelation. And as previously mentioned, the Messiah often described his teaching as not his own but his Father's. There could be much more said about the character of the Anointed Yeshua and the honor, power, and glory that he received from his Father, but none of these require pre-existence. On the contrary, they argue against pre-existence. If the Messiah was God, he would not have needed to be given anything at all. Some have argued that all the things received by him were already his by right. If that was the case and they were already his — then how did he receive them?

    This question falls into the same category as the question that has bothered generations of Christians, viz how can God be one and also two or three? As before mentioned, scriptures are often interpreted in accordance with a persons pre-conceived notions — his paradigm. Burtt put it like this: “We become so obsessed with a certain theory that we read it into every passage in the Bible” (ibid., p. 14).
    SOURCE

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    …


    My personal note on a Scripture reference in excerpt of this article:

    Scripture Reference: Then the word of Yahweh came unto me, saying, Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth from the womb I set you apart [“sanctified you”] and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations (Yeremyah 1: 4-5).

    My Personal Note: This passage can be compared to Yahshua's communication [“prayer”] with his and our Father Yahweh in his saying:

    “And now, Father,  esteem [“glorify”] me in Your presence with the esteem I had with You before the world began (Yahchanan [John] 17:5).

    Yahshua here was not giving reference to his LITERALLY pre-existing with his and our Father Yahweh as an actual being before the world began. The fact is, Yahshua was giving reference to the esteem [“glory”] that he had with his and our Father Yahweh before the world began, not to his pre-existing as an actual being with Him before the world began.

    Also see:

    “The Glory I Had With You Before The World Was”
    Yahchanan [John] 17:5

    … :laugh:

    September 3, 2012 at 3:05 am#311568
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2012,13:50)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 03 2012,13:21)
    f

    HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU PASTE THAT COMMENT OF YOUR ,????:D


    Pieeear,

    Once! Here it is again! Count it! :D

    You might also want to read it and pay special attention to the Scriptural references in context with Scripture as a whole this time! :laugh:

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2012,12:29)
    Biblical pre-existence

    We fully realize that questioning the pre-existence of the “person” Yeshua places us considerably outside the mainstream. However, as previously mentioned, when we are dealing with a God that has the ability to “… call things that are not as though they are” — we must be careful not to project literal meaning to things that He intended as figurative. That the perpetrators of the Trinitarian view are inconsistent when they apply pre-existence only to the Anointed Yeshua is easily proven.

    There are several people in the Bible that were described as pre-existing. King David was one of those. The Psalmist describes his pre-existence in Psalm 139:14-16:

    “I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them” (emphasis mine).

    While this Psalm is a remarkable description of the power and planning of the great YEHOVAH God, no theologian tries to literalize David's pre-existence from this text. How did David pre-exist? That's right, in the Mind and foreknowledge of YEHOVAH God.

    Jeremiah is also similarly alluded to —

    Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth from the womb I sanctified you and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations (Jer. 1: 4-5, emphasis mine).

    Could not the above scriptures be construed to mean that Jeremiah pre-existed in some “spiritual” form before he came to inhabit his earthly body? After all, YEHOVAH “knew” him before his birth and also “sanctified” him before the womb, right? Or does it make more sense that YEHOVAH was saying that he was calling “things that are not as though they are”?

    The omnipotent and omniscient God also speaks of Cyrus, king of the Medean Empire, more than 150 years before the events described occurred. He is even referred to as YEHOVAH's anointed in the work that he was to accomplish on behalf of the captive Judahites:

    Who says of Cyrus, He is My shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure, even saying to Jerusalem, you shall be built, and to the temple, your foundation shall be laid. Thus says the Lord to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have held — to subdue nations before him and loose the armor of kings. To open before him the double doors, so that the gates will not be shut (Is. 44:28- 45:1, NKJV emphasis mine).

    As you can see for yourself, in this example Cyrus had YEHOVAH's anointing to perform good things for the Judahites that were in Babylonian captivity. He was the one that authorized their return to Palestine to rebuild the walls and temple of Jerusalem that had been razed by the forces of Nebuchadnezzar, first king of the Neo-Babylonian Empire circa 586 BC. As remarkable in scope as is the prophesy of Isaiah that recorded these events almost two centuries before they occurred, no theologian tries to make the pre-existence of Cyrus literal. So WHY do this with the Messiah? Are you getting the point?

    Even Paul alludes to a similar pre-existence as Jeremiah's in Galatians 1:15-16 by saying,

    But when it was well-pleasing to the one who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me (on account of his generosity) to reveal his son to me, so that I might announce him to the gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood.

    So what can we say to all of this? Simply this. The scriptures that are used to prove that Yeshua of Nazareth pre-existed also fall into the same category. It should also be stressed that the literal pre-existence of the Anointed is in no way necessary to our salvation! It is only relevant to the view of the “Holy Trinity”. This view creates the difficulty of explaining how that God is one and yet two or three. Do you remember discussing this question in its various forms and solutions? Obsession with a particular theory will cause one to interpret every scripture possible within the context of that theory. Such has been the effect of the “Holy Trinity” view on scholars for generations.

    Pre-Existence Of The Anointed Not Required

    Let's prove together that the literal pre-existence of the Messiah is not required to accomplish the purposes for which he was anointed. In the same way that Cyrus' pre-existence was not a requirement to carry out the pre-existing purposes of YEHOVAH God, the same can be said concerning Yeshua, the Anointed. Let's also number them so we can keep track.

    1) His pre-existence was not required for his person and/or personality as the Anointed. He was certainly “material” before his death and even emphasized his continued “materiality” after his resurrection. Luke 24:39 records it thus:

    Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.

    Milton Burtt makes a very appropriate observation concerning this subject:

    To theorize at this point and try to imagine an immaterial pre-existent personality distinct from the body is nothing short of subtle spiritualism (op. cit., p. 7).

    2) The pre-existence of the Messiah was also NOT required for him to be the “only begotten son” of YEHOVAH God. The scriptures clearly record that he was born of the woman Mary — his father being Joseph the carpenter (Luke 4:22). He had a NORMAL, HUMAN BIRTH! For the same reason, however, that Adam's pre-existence was NOT required for him to be physically created by YEHOVAH God, neither did the Messiah (the “last Adam”) need to pre-exist to be spiritually “begotten” of the father. I doubt whether any would argue that Adam did not pre-exist in the Mind of YEHOVAH before his “advent,” so why should the Messiah NOT also have pre-existed in YEHOVAH's Mind before his “advent”? As you can see, the uniqueness of both Adam and the Messiah need have nothing whatsoever to do with their personal pre-existence, but rather with the existence of an omniscient Almighty God Who planned them in his mind from before Creation.

    3) Pre-existence was not essential for the power resident in the Anointed Y
    eshua. It was by the power of YEHOVAH's spirit (or breath) that the Messiah performed signs after his anointing. The Messiah said,

    But if I am casting out spirit beings by the spirit of God, God's kingdom has appeared to you (Matt. 12:28, emphasis mine).

    This truth is echoed and placed in the context of “anointing” power by Peter in Acts 10:38:

    [You know] how God anointed that Yeshua from Nazareth with holy breath and power, who went about doing good deeds and healing all those who were oppressed by the Accuser, because God was with him (emphasis mine).

    As we can see, without the “anointing” of YEHOVAH God and the fact that “God was with him” he would have been powerless. This engenders the question of how the omnipotent God became powerless in the first place. We might as well turn to the old enigma that asks, “Could YEHOVAH God create a rock that He was unable to lift?”

    4) Pre-existence was also not involved in the atonement of the Anointed nor was it at all necessary. On the contrary, human existence was what was called for. Peter taught plainly that Christians were redeemed by the blood of the Messiah —

    On the contrary, you were delivered with the valuable, spotless and unblemished blood of a 'lamb' — that is, the Anointed One's blood (1 Pet. 1:19).

    In this, Peter was echoing the pattern of atonement laid down in the Old Testament system as a shadow and type of what was to come. “It is the blood that makes atonement for the soul” (Lev. 17:11). In fact, the Anointed's humanity is what is being stressed in his subsequent sacrifice as the fulfillment of the old by the Hebrew writer. After making it clear that the blood of bulls and goats would not suffice for atonement, the writer posits that human flesh and blood was required —

    Therefore, brothers, since we have freedom of speech by the blood of Yeshua, to the point of entering the holy places (By his blood he made new for us a new and living way through the veil, which is, his flesh), and since we have a great priest over God's house, we should come near…. (Heb. 10:19-21, emphasis mine).

    As everyone knows, blood and flesh are characteristics of human and earthly organisms and certainly require no pre-existence.

    5) Pre-existence was not an essential requisite for the knowledge (revelation) that the Messiah received. It should be noted that the Messiah is referred to by Moses as a prophet like himself (Deut. 18:15). As Moses received his power and knowledge through YEHOVAH, the same was true of the Anointed Yeshua. Luke explains his human mental capacity as he grows in wisdom, knowledge and favor in Luke 2:52. There is no record of the Messiah performing any miracles or speaking prophetically before his baptism by John when the spirit of YEHOVAH God descended upon him. It was immediately thereafter that Luke connects the power of YEHOVAH with the Messiah. After his baptism and testing by the Adversary, Luke notes that the Messiah,

    … returned in the power of the spirit to Galilee, and a report of him went out through all the surrounding region (Luke 4:14, emphasis mine).

    It was from this very context that Luke records the remarkable confrontation between the Messiah and the townspeople of his youth. Luke says,

    So he came to Nazareth where he had been brought up. And according to the custom, he entered the synagogue on the Sabbath and stood up to read…. he found the place where it was written: 'The Lord's breath is upon me. On account of this, he has anointed me to an- nounce a good message to the poor; he has sent me forth to herald a release to the captives and a restoration of sight to the blind; to send forth in freedom those who had been crushed; to herald the Lord's acceptable year (Luke 4:16-19).

    The next verse records the rapt attention paid to him by those listening. Why, all of a sudden, did they give him such scrutiny? Because of his newly required reputation! News of him had preceded his return to Nazareth (Luke 4:14). It was after the Messiah's “anointing” that he was able to receive their undivided attention and it was only then that he said,

    Today this writing is fulfilled in your hearing (Luke 4:21, emphasis mine).

    His neighbors were flabbergasted by what had transpired. The people that had known him and his mother and father demonstrate undeniably that the Messiah had never previously exercised prophetic or miraculous abilities. “Today”, says the Messiah, this writing is fulfilled.

    What occurred required NO pre-existence of any kind any more than did the calling of Moses, Amos, or any other prophet singled out by YEHOVAH God to receive power and/or revelation. And as previously mentioned, the Messiah often described his teaching as not his own but his Father's. There could be much more said about the character of the Anointed Yeshua and the honor, power, and glory that he received from his Father, but none of these require pre-existence. On the contrary, they argue against pre-existence. If the Messiah was God, he would not have needed to be given anything at all. Some have argued that all the things received by him were already his by right. If that was the case and they were already his — then how did he receive them?

    This question falls into the same category as the question that has bothered generations of Christians, viz how can God be one and also two or three? As before mentioned, scriptures are often interpreted in accordance with a persons pre-conceived notions — his paradigm. Burtt put it like this: “We become so obsessed with a certain theory that we read it into every passage in the Bible” (ibid., p. 14).
    SOURCE

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    …


    My personal note on a Scripture reference in excerpt of this article:

    Scripture Reference: Then the word of Yahweh came unto me, saying, Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth from the womb I set you apart [“sanctified you”] and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations (Yeremyah 1: 4-5).

    My Personal Note: This passage can be compared to Yahshua's communication [“prayer”] with his and our Father Yahweh in his saying:

    “And now, Father,  esteem [“glorify”] me in Your presence with the esteem I had with You before the world began (Yahchanan [John] 17:5).

    Yahshua here was not giving reference to his LITERALLY pre-existing with his and our Father Yahweh as an actual being before the world began. The fact is, Yahshua was giving reference to the esteem [“glory”] that he had with his and our Father Yahweh before the world began, not to his pre-existing as an actual being with Him before the world began.

    Also see:

    “The Glory I Had With You Before The World Was”
    Yahchanan [John] 17:5

    … :laugh:


    Pieear,

    Thanks for the inquiry, since if you would have not said something I would have probably not noticed the URL error to the link to my Xanga blog that I had made at the end of the article excerpt. Following is it's correction:

    http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/7080526….rld-was

    THanks again!  :)

    September 3, 2012 at 5:26 am#311573
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 02 2012,16:45)
    Hi Jammin,

    Those words were added in and you know it;
    mans doctrines are very important to you, aye?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    that is not added ed.

    you just cant accept the truth
    let me post the KJV
    John 1:14

    King James Version (KJV)

    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    the bible is talking about the father's son and not HOLY SPIRIT.

    do you know how to read boy???

    other version says
    John 1:14

    English Standard Version (ESV)

    14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    ed that is very clear in the bible.
    believe it or not

    the Word is the son of God/Christ.

    September 3, 2012 at 8:31 am#311578
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 02 2012,15:40)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 02 2012,07:00)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 02 2012,01:01)

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 31 2012,23:53)
    Hi Jammin, I do.

    “The Word was God” (John 1:1)
    “God was in Christ” (2Cor. 5:19)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    the verse is correct.
    just do not add your imagination ed.

    rule #1
    read the context

    you do not know that ed


    Hi Jammin,

    “Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
    them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be
    upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there
    a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said,
    This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

    But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line;
    here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.” (Isaiah 28:9-13)

    “And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul
    also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;  As also in all his epistles,
    speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they
    that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:15-16)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    that verse is applicable to you ed.

    let me post the whole john 1.1-14
    John 1:1-14

    New Life Version (NLV)
    Christ Lived Before the World Was Made

    1 The Word (Christ) was in the beginning. The Word was with God. The Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 He made all things. Nothing was made without Him making it. 4 Life began by Him. His Life was the Light for men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness. The darkness has never been able to put out the Light.
    John the Baptist Tells of the Coming of Christ

    6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came to tell what he knew about the Light so that all men might believe through him. 8 John was not the Light, but he was sent to tell about the Light.

    9 This true Light, coming into the world, gives light to every man. 10 He came into the world. The world was made by Him, but it did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, but His own did not receive Him. 12 He gave the right and the power to become children of God to those who received Him. He gave this to those who put their trust in His name. 13 These children of God were not born of blood and of flesh and of man’s desires, but they were born of God. 14 Christ became human flesh and lived among us. We saw His shining-greatness. This greatness is given only to a much-loved Son from His Father. He was full of loving-favor and truth.

    do you see that ed???
    that is very clear in the bible. the Word is Christ.you do not need to jump to 2 cor to insert your imagination.
    i read the context of the bible and it says that the Word is the son of God/Christ.

    that is the right way to read your bible.

    study hard boy


    In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1 NLT)

    So the Word became human[a] and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness.[b] And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son. (John 1:14 NLT)

    The Word is God? …God with the God in the beginning?

    How many truly God the context saying?

    The Word is God, and he was died?

    John 4:24 New King James Version (NKJV)

    God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

    Is Jesus Christ is a spirit? Yes or No?

    September 3, 2012 at 1:19 pm#311601
    jammin
    Participant

    the body died. Christ had a truly human body. 1 john 4.2
    1 John 4:2

    Contemporary English Version (CEV)

    2 and you can know which ones come from God. His Spirit says that Jesus Christ had a truly human body.

    he became flesh (john 1.14)
    John 1:14

    New Life Version (NLV)

    14 Christ became human flesh and lived among us. We saw His shining-greatness.

    the son and the father have the same nature.
    John 1.1 BNT
    When the world began, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God.

    how many times do i need to repeat this limjunus boy.
    you and your father HAVE ONE NATURE! that is your HUMAN NATURE!

    the father and the son have the same nature, and that is nature God. phil 2.6
    Philippians 2:6

    New International Version (NIV)

    6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,

    study hard boy

    :D

    September 3, 2012 at 4:36 pm#311609
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 02 2012,17:04)
    HolySpirit/God Most High's spirit


    So God's Holy Spirit has a spirit of its own?

    September 3, 2012 at 4:46 pm#311610
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 02 2012,20:43)
    My personal note on a Scripture reference in excerpt of this article:

    Scripture Reference: Then the word of Yahweh came unto me, saying, Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth from the womb I set you apart [“sanctified you”] and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations (Yeremyah 1: 4-5).

    My Personal Note: This passage can be compared to Yahshua's communication [“prayer”] with his and our Father Yahweh in his saying:

    “And now, Father, esteem [“glorify”] me in Your presence with the esteem I had with You before the world began (Yahchanan [John] 17:5).


    Frank,

    Can you really compare God knowing us before we exist to us being able to say WE had glory alongside Him before the world began?

    Surely God already knows everyone who hasn't even been born yet, right? But that's quite different than any of those unborn people being able to say they were with God before the world began, right? Nor can any of us or them ever say, “I came down from heaven to do the will of my Father”.

    September 3, 2012 at 4:48 pm#311611
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 02 2012,20:50)
    Pieeear,


    Really Frank? Isn't playing games with another member's name a little childish? His name is Pierre, not “Pie – ear” like you've been addressing him for months.

    Grow up.

    September 3, 2012 at 4:56 pm#311612
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 03 2012,02:31)
    The Word is God? …God with the God in the beginning?


    Makes no sense, does it limjunis?

    God Almighty cannot possibly bewith God Almighty – unless there are TWO God Almighties. Yet most people let common sense fly out the window when it comes to John 1:1.

    September 3, 2012 at 4:58 pm#311613
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 03 2012,07:19)
    the body died.


    If Christ didn't die exactly the same way we die, then he cannot be the first of many brethren to be resurrected from the dead.

    Jesus said that not all will taste death. And Paul said that Jesus truly tasted death for all of us.

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