John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 9,961 through 9,980 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #311297
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 01 2012,11:55)
    I've been discussing this with Ed, but now that I think about it, EVERYONE who believes John 1:1 teaches that God Most High actually WAS the Word who was WITH God Most High in the beginning, must also believe that the following paraphrase of 1:14 is accurate………..

    14 God Most High became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen God Most High's glory, the glory of the only begotten, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Does this REALLY make sense to you all?   ???


    Hi Mike,

    And the Word [HolySpirit] was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
     (and we beheld [the HolySpirit's] his glory, the glory as of
     the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.         (John 1:14)

    The HolySpirit's glory is seen in the children of God, first in Jesus, then in us.

          the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14) com-
          pared
    with the glory which shall be revealed in us
    . (Romans 8:18)

          The Word of the oath, which was since the law,
          maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. (Hebrews 7:28)

          1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of
          incorruptible, by “The Word” of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

          Of his own will begat he us with “The Word” of truth,
          that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #311366
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 31 2012,23:53)
    Hi Jammin, I do.

    “The Word was God” (John 1:1)
    “God was in Christ” (2Cor. 5:19)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    the verse is correct.
    just do not add your imagination ed.

    rule #1
    read the context

    you do not know that ed

    #311379
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,00:02)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 01 2012,11:55)
    I've been discussing this with Ed, but now that I think about it, EVERYONE who believes John 1:1 teaches that God Most High actually WAS the Word who was WITH God Most High in the beginning, must also believe that the following paraphrase of 1:14 is accurate………..

    14 God Most High became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen God Most High's glory, the glory of the only begotten, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Does this REALLY make sense to you all?   ???


    Hi Mike,

    And the Word [HolySpirit] was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
     (and we beheld [the HolySpirit's] his glory, the glory as of
     the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.         (John 1:14)


    Ed,

    Since you believe the Holy Spirit IS God Most High, my paraphrase accurately conveys your understanding of 1:14.

    It is only because you are now realizing your understanding doesn't make sense that you are trying to distinguish between the Holy Spirit and God Most High – although you've claimed for years that they are one and the same.

    Which is it? Are they different or one and the same?

    #311380
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 01 2012,00:00)
    Mike,

    Read again all what I posted.

    I made it clear that when HE SAID SON OF GOD, HE MEANT

    GOD IN FLESH.

    IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LITERALLY MEANING.

    JESUS CALLED HEROD FOX.

    WAS HEROD A FOX???

    YOU WOULD DEFINITELY SAY NO!!


    No, you didn't “make it clear”, Charles.  You made a claim which I consider illogical and unscriptural.  That is a far cry from “making it clear”.

    And no, Herod wasn't literally a fox – but we must use our God-given common sense, Charles.  Common sense tells us that Herod wasn't literally a fox.  What tells us that Satan meant “God in the flesh” by the words “Son of God”?   ???

    Did you read limjunis' post?  Does it really make sense to you that Satan offered something God gave him in the first place in exchange for an act of worship?  ???

    That would be like me telling God I will give him an apple that He gave to me in the first place – if He would only worship me.

    Surely Satan and the demons, being spirit beings, know who God is and have actually seen God.  And they knew that Jesus was not God.

    #311387
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    The Theology of John 1

    The best place to start as we examine the theology of pre-existence is with the gospel according to John. No other historian of the Messiah alludes to the theme of “pre-existence” nearly to the extent that John does. Consequently, much of the theology existing today has been inspired by John's gospel. Not only is the interpretation of John primarily responsible for the view that the Messiah was “God incarnate” but it is also the main contributor to the doctrine that also includes the “Holy Spirit” among the “Godhead” — thus the “Holy Trinity.”

    As mentioned in the introduction, a person's theology will color his translation of the Greek. Such is the case with the gospel of John. Undoubtedly, the theme of John is set forth in chapter one and is developed from there. As a matter of fact, the Roman Catholic commentary on the “Holy Trinity” was developed by alluding first to their translation of John 1:1-14. For this reason it behooves us to look at some of these verses first.

    The KJV and most that have followed have rendered John 1:1 thus:

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    The Greek word translated “Word” is logoV (logos). Most scholars would agree that “word” is inadequate as a definition of logoV. Vine defines it thus:

    “a. Denotes the expression of thought — not the mere name of an object as embodying a conception or idea… b. A saying or statement…” (ibid., vol. iv, p. 229)

    Doctor Adam Clark defines it in this fashion —

    “It signifies a word spoken, speech, eloquence, doctrine, reason, or the faculty of reasoning.” (op. cit., Burtt, p. 10)

    As previously mentioned, the entire original manuscript of John was penned in Greek capital letters. Given this fact, to capitalize this word in the English is to interpret its meaning and this is what the majority of versions do. Just the fact that they capitalize it in this verse proves their Trinitarian bias and paradigm. It does not mean that they are wrong in their theology; it only identifies what their theology was as they entered their labors. If you change the translation of logoV to a lower case “message” it carries a greater meaning than the English “Word” and changes completely the theology contained therein.

    In addition to capitalizing and translating logoV “Word”, they also translated the Greek word proV (pros) “with” — which is not its general use in the accusative case. ProV, as with most prepositions, has a very strong directional sense. Chase and Phillips define its use in the accusative as:

    To, towards, with reference to, according to (A New Introduction to Greek, p. 119).

    ProV (Pros) is not the word in the Greek that would have been used if John wanted us to understand the “Word” was “with” God in the English sense. “Meta” (meta) would have been used to convey that sense. In John 1:1, I agree with those that render it as “directed toward”. Another thing that happens with this verse in most English translations is the repositioning of the phrase “and 'God' was the logoV,” which is the order it appears in the Greek text. Sometimes switching the sequence of a sentence does not influence the meaning but in this case an entire theology can be bolstered as a result. Therefore, you see it translated “and the Word was God” in most English translations instead of “and 'God' the message was“.

    Another important point that needs to be discussed here is that — in the opinion of most Greek scholars — at least the first portion of the John text is in poetic form. The poetic form that occurs is that the first word or principle meaning of the next sentence is the last word or principle meaning of the proceeding sentence. In view of this, let me quote what is in my opinion a superior translation of the passage:

    In the beginning was the message,
    And the message was directed toward God,
    And “God” the message was.

    As you can see illustrated by the above rendering, “message” is the last word of the first line and becomes the first primary word of the second line. “God” — which is the last word of the second line is the first primary word of the next line. This poetic structure appears in other portions of the “prolog” to John, such as:

    What has been done in it was life,
    And the life was the light of humanity.
    And the light shone in the darkness,
    But the darkness did not understand it. (vv. 4-5)

    As you can also see, a tremendous change in theology can be derived by the above translation. Let me emphasize that the above IS a valid rendering and that it is not a perversion designed to undermine the Trinitarian view. The translator, Frank Daniels, did NOT hold the view contained in this thesis when he translated John.

    Translating the first verse with the lower case “message” rather than the upper case “Word” also causes the pronoun autoV (autos) — translated “he” by the “authorized” versions — to be translated “it”, “this” or “the same” because it refers to a neuter “message” rather than a person “Word”. Instead of the normal rendering of verse 2 which is,

    “He [autoV] was in the beginning with [proV] God.”

    it is translated —

    “The same [autoV] was directed toward [proV] God in the beginning.”

    The pronoun autoV will be masculine or neuter depending upon the gender of the word to which it refers. Of course, we all know that “word” is neuter anyway. However, the KJV assumed that logoV — in this case — was a male person, i.e., “Jesus Christ,” so they rendered autoV “he.” Do you see what I mean by translator bias? You don't need to be a Greek scholar to notice this bias if it is pointed out to you.

    Even the “authorized” versions do not uniformly translate autoV “him” in verses 2 through 4. In verse 2 cited above, they render autoV “He”. In verse 3, they give autoV as “him”. However, in verse 4, they switch to “it”. They are not being disingenuous here, only interpreting according to their paradigm. Instead of the KJV rendering,

    All things were made by him [autoV]; and without him [autoV] was not any thing made that was made. In him [autoV] was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shone in darkness and the darkness comprehended it [autoV] not (emphasis and Greek mine).

    the alternative would continue the poetic structure with a different and consistent translation of the pronoun autoV as follows:

    Through it [autoV], all things were done.
    And without it [autoV] nothing was done.
    What has been done in it [autoV] was life.
    And the life was the light of humanity.
    And the light shone in the darkness.
    But the darkness did not understand it [autoV].

    Do you see the seeds of a “new” theology emerging? The “authorized” rendering of verses 3-5, certainly demonstrates the personification of the Greek logoV (translated and capitalized “Word”) by the additional rendition of autoV as “he” and “him”. On the other hand, by translating logoV “message” and (autoV) “it” you project an entirely different connotation to verse 14 — which I believe states concisely the theme of the gospel of John — whereas the “authorized” version gives it as:

    And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    The alternative would read —

    And the message was embodied (made flesh) and lived among us, and we observed its glory: glory like from a father's only son, full of favor and truth.

    The “authorized” rendering of John 1:3-5 also strongly implies that the personified “Word” was the creator by translating the Greek word dia
    “by ” instead of “through.” Almost all later versions, including the RSV, NASV, ASV and NIV, correct this bias of the KJV and give it as “through.” However, most follow the error that is compounded by translating egeneto (egeneto) — a form of the word ginomai (ginomai) — “made”, strongly implying in this context create when the basic meaning is “happen”! Wilson aptly comments on its use here as follows:

    “Ginomai occurs upwards of seven hundred times in the New Testament, but never in the sense of create, yet in most versions it is translated as though the word was ktizw (ktizo). 'The word appears fifty three times in John, and signifies to be, to come, to become, to come to pass; also, to be done or transacted” (The Emphatic Diaglott, p. 312).

    Understand this, egeneto NEVER carries a “creation” meaning and is never translated such outside the four times rendered such in the first chapter of John (John 1:3,4, and 10) and in these cases the translators strongly suggest create by translating egeneto “made.”

    Are you beginning to understand the powerful influence of paradigm in the translation process? These men were brilliant scholars and certainly understood the English language and the nuances of word usage. It is easy to identify their bias in this example. I reiterate that it does not necessarily mean that their interpretation and theology was incorrect. It most assuredly shows, however, that their Trinitarian bias (coupled with their fear of King James whose many titles included “Defender of the Faith) “colored” their translation.

    If we agree that the proper translation of egeneto is “were done” — which fits this context — you have the makings of a whole new interpretation. Instead of the logoV “message” being the creator itself, it becomes the reason that the “all things” under discussion in this text were “done.” Therefore, the rendering

    Through it, all things were done.
    And without it nothing was done.

    could be interpreted as saying that YEHOVAH God brought “all things” into focus historically through and on account of the pre-existent “message,” and his whole plan was conceived and purposed toward this end. The next verse identifies the goal of this “message” as “life.”

    What has been done in it was life. And the life was the light of humanity.

    This also explains verse one's description, “And 'God' the message was.”

    YEHOVAH God was the source, inspiration, and accomplisher of this plan and the pre-existent and forthcoming “message” would direct mankind toward this truth. YEHOVAH was the content of the message. The great Revelator, omnipotent and omniscient One described by Paul as one who “… calls things that are not as though they are” (Rom. 4:17), would be declared and glorified by a uniquely prepared individual — the Anointed Yeshua. In other words, instead of having the person of the “Anointed” pre-existing as God, you have the “message” of the “Anointed” pre-existing and “directed toward God.”

    This message is the same message spoken to Abraham and Moses. A good example of this distinction can be seen in Ephesians 1:4. Paul writes that Christians were “chosen in him (the Anointed Yeshua) before the foundation of the world.” No one argues from this verse that Christians literally pre-existed but that the plan and purpose of YEHOVAH for their redemption pre-existed. If this is true concerning the believer (the goal of the message), couldn't it also be true regarding the “Anointed” (messenger) himself? If not, why not? Simply put, YEHOVAH God had the believer in MIND before he existed so why could not the “Anointed” have existed only in YEHOVAH's MIND before it became flesh?

    This view makes much more sense than trying to explain the Messiah as being both 100% God and 100% man at the same time. In addition, this principle can be enjoined in all references to the pre-existence of the “Anointed” in the New Testament. Even the difficulty of making the switch from the neuter pronoun to the masculine in the first chapter of John is removed when you understand that Yeshua of Nazareth was the “message” of YEHOVAH God personified rather than “God personified”. So the “message” was embodied in the “flesh” in verse 14. We didn't observe the message itself, but the GLORY of the message, viz the embodiment of the message: The Messiah — a he.

    And the message was embodied and lived among us, and we observed its glory: glory like from a father's only son, full of favor and truth.

    This view also agrees with John's use of the neuter in introducing the subject of 1 John. Here, John also introduces the Messiah from the standpoint of a neuter “message” rather than a person “he.” Compare with John 1:1-4 and 1 John 1:1-2. John 1:1-4 has:

    1 In the beginning was the message,
    And the message was directed towards God,
    And “God” the message was.

    2 The same one was directed towards God in the beginning.

    3 Through it, all things were done.
    And without it nothing was done.

    4 What has been done in it was life.
    And the life was the Light of humanity.

    In 1 John 1:1-2 he writes:

    1 What was from the beginning,
    What we heard, What we saw with our eyes,
    What we observed and our hands felt
    Concerning the message of life.

    2 And the life appeared,
    And we saw and are testifying and are declaring to you
    the life, the eternal life,
    which was directed toward the Father
    and which appeared to us.

    In 1 John 1:1-2, all scholars render the subject as neuter. Some translate it “that” instead of “what” but there is no difference in the meaning. John emphasizes that “what” they had seen and heard — their “hands felt”. When you think on it, a “what” would require substance of some sort in order to be heard, understood and felt, wouldn't it? And this is just what John is alluding to. Yeshua, as the Anointed, was the embodiment of the “message” of “life” — the “message” that directed people towards the giver of life — the “Father”. This also agrees with the concept raised by the Messiah in John 14:19. There the Messiah taught Philip, “The one who has seen me has seen the Father.” Was he saying they had literally seen YEHOVAH God? No one claims this is the case! If he did not intend it literally then how did he mean it? They had beheld the “message” of YEHOVAH God personified in him — not YEHOVAH God Himself! Isn't this what John was teaching in John 1:18?

    No one has ever seen God. The unique son, the one who is at the bosom of the Father, that one has related him.

    In the above verse, the word translated “related” is exhghsato (exegesato) and is translated “declare” by the KJV. It is the word we derive our English word exegesis. Vine defines it as:

    EXEGEOMAI (exhgeomai), lit., to lead out, signifies to make known, rehearse, declare… In John 1:18, in the sentence 'He hath declared Him,' the other meaning of the verb is in view, to unfold in teaching, to declare by making known. See Tell (op. cit., p. 265).

    Yeshua, as the Anointed One, related to them everything that the “message” residing in him intended. Thus, through his life and teaching they had seen YEHOVAH God — His character, His love, His desire for their deliverance and abundant life, etc. As they examined the Messiah, they beheld the “life” of John 1:4. As they lived with him, listened to him and touched him, they “heard…saw… felt…the message of life.”

    Not only is this view more sensible and consistent, but it also makes the unique man Yeshua even MORE compelling — if that is possible. This will be developed in detail before the end of this article.
    SOURCE  

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter O
    ne

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #311388
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    What tells us that Satan meant “God in the flesh” by the words “Son of God”?  

    Mike,

    Literally ” Son of God ”

    Spiritually  “GOD”.

    JESUS AS FLESH WAS SON OF MAN AND SON OF GOD

    JESUS AS SPIRITUAL was GOD IN FLESH.  

    THE FULLNESS OF GOD IN JESUS BODY.

    SINCE HE WAS ON EARTH, AND BECAME VISIBLE.

    THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE, THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING,

    AND HE DEMONSTRATED IT BY MASSACCERING HIS FLESH BODY AND  TRANSFORMED IT INTO HIS REAL SPRITUAL SUBSTANCE .

    WHILE VISIBLE ON EARTH ONE COULD ONLY SEE  JESUS AS MAN WITH THE EXCEPTION OF HIS APPOSTLES:

    John 16:3 And these things will they do to you; because they have not known the Father, nor me

    SO THE WORLD HAD NOT KNOWN NEITHER THE FATHER IN HIS FULLNESS AS SPIRITUAL IN JESUS AS GOD, NOR JESUS AS SON OF MAN AND SON OF GOD.

    Quote
    that Satan offered something God gave him in the first place in exchange for an act of worship    

    lUKE 4: 13 And all the temptation being ended, the devil departed from him for a time.

    14 And Jesus returned in the power of the spirit, into Galilee, and the fame of him went out through the whole country.

    MIKE,

    The above scripture tells us that Jesus was not in the POWER OF THE SPIRIT when he was in the desert, so He was as a mere man to be tested,and to keep Satan in the blind in order to kill Him. if he knew that Jesus was the MESSIAH he wouldn't have crucified HIM.

    Now read hereunder,

    LITERALLY IT SAYS:

    Which none of the princes of this world knew

    So to make sure that you understand scriptures,the princes of this world are SATAN and his alliances

    1 Corithians 2:8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    Quote
    Surely Satan and the demons, being spirit beings, know who God is and have actually seen God.  And they knew that Jesus was not God.

    Mike and LIMJUNUS,

    I'm afraid you still need MILK not MEAT since you don't know that Satan and the demons NEVER SAW GOD AND NEVER WILL SEE GOD IN THEIR EVIL STATE.

    I WOULD HAVE EXPLAINED THIS FOR YOU, BUT I KNOW HOW UNCOMFORTABLE IT IS  FOR YOU  READING MY, AND LONG POSTS.

    SO I LET YOU SEARCH SCRIPTURES TO VERIFY YOURSELF.

    peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #311392
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 02 2012,01:01)

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 31 2012,23:53)
    Hi Jammin, I do.

    “The Word was God” (John 1:1)
    “God was in Christ” (2Cor. 5:19)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    the verse is correct.
    just do not add your imagination ed.

    rule #1
    read the context

    you do not know that ed


    Hi Jammin,

    “Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
    them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be
    upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there
    a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said,
    This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

    But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line;
    here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.” (Isaiah 28:9-13)

    “And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul
    also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;  As also in all his epistles,
    speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they
    that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:15-16)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #311393
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2012,02:35)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,00:02)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 01 2012,11:55)
    I've been discussing this with Ed, but now that I think about it, EVERYONE who believes John 1:1 teaches that God Most High actually WAS the Word who was WITH God Most High in the beginning, must also believe that the following paraphrase of 1:14 is accurate………..

    14 God Most High became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen God Most High's glory, the glory of the only begotten, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Does this REALLY make sense to you all?   ???


    Hi Mike,

    And the Word [HolySpirit] was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
     (and we beheld [the HolySpirit's] his glory, the glory as of
     the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.         (John 1:14)


    Ed,

    Since you believe the Holy Spirit IS God Most High, my paraphrase accurately conveys your understanding of 1:14.  

    It is only because you are now realizing your understanding doesn't make sense that you are trying to distinguish between the Holy Spirit and God Most High – although you've claimed for years that they are one and the same.

    Which is it?  Are they different or one and the same?


    Hi Mike,

    The Holy Spirit IS the spirit of God Most High.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #311404
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    Surely Satan and the demons, being spirit beings, know who God is and have actually seen God.  And they knew that Jesus was not God.

    Limjunus,

    As I said to Mike,

    Jesus was a mere man while in the desert.

    God never allowed Satan to recognize Jesus divinity.

    Satan never saw, and knew who God was.

    Satan saw for the first time God in Jesus, GLORIFIED in His mystical flesh body when he took HIS SOUL in hell

    WITHOUT BEING AWARE WHO HE WAS.

    You have to reflect upon the FACT that God alloowed Satan to own the MATTER, the reason that the world was his.

    So as MATTER, although he is a spirit, he was never allowed the spiritual ATTRIBUTES of GOD, since God is the only  GENUINE spirit

    keep in mind that it was and still is a WAR between

    GOOD AND EVIL

    GOD AND SATAN

    SPIRIT AND FLESH

    WHO WOULD OVERTHROW WHO!!

    SO JESUS WAS BOTH FLESH(SATAN'S) AND SPIRIT (GOD'S)

    Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers

     OF FLESH AND BLOOD (Satan's substance), HE ALSO HIMSELF LIKEWISE TOOK PART OF THE SAME

    that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

    15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

    17WHEREFOR IN ALL THINGS IT BEHOVED HIM TO BE MADE LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN
    that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

    18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted  

    THEREFORE JESUS DESTROYED THE FLESH(SATAN'S) AND TRANSFORMED IT INTO HIS GENUINE  SPIRITUAL FLESH SUBSTANCE,

    GOD'S MYSTICAL BODY,

    AND JESUS OVERTHREW SATAN FROM THE ENTIRE CREATION AND REPLACED HIM, AND BECAME IN COMMAND OF:

    BOTH HEAVEN AND EARTH.

    BOTH SPIRIT AND  FLESH,

    SATAN LOST MANHOOD

    HIS DREAM TO BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH.

    Peace and love in Jesus the only true God in flesh.

    Charles

    #311408
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 01 2012,13:37)
    Mike,

    Literally ” Son of God ”

    Spiritually  “GOD”.


    No Charles,

    “Son OF God” means exactly what it sounds like.  And just as the “son OF the President” is not also the President himself, the Son OF God is not also the God he is the Son OF.

    One more thing:
    Job 1:6
    Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

    Not only did Satan see Jehovah, but he had a long conversation with Him about Job.  It's right there in the scriptures for all to to see.

    #311409
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,14:03)
    Hi Mike,

    The Holy Spirit IS the spirit of God Most High.


    Kudos, Ed!  

    This is what MANY people have been trying to tell you for YEARS on this site.  Worshipping Jesus actually started two different threads in an effort to TEACH you what you finally seem to accept.

    So why did you buck so hard against all of us who have been telling you the Holy Spirit is OF God, and not God Most High himself?

    #311410
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 01 2012,13:37)
    MIKE,

    The above scripture tells us that Jesus was not in the POWER OF THE SPIRIT when he was in the desert, so He was as a mere man to be tested


    So “God” was merely a man on earth at first, and then somehow became “God” again?

    Charles, Jesus is the Son of God. In other words, our ONE God, Jehovah, has a Son and his name is Jesus.

    #311411
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2012,08:46)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,14:03)
    Hi Mike,

    The Holy Spirit IS the spirit of God Most High.


    Kudos, Ed!  

    This is what MANY people have been trying to tell you for YEARS on this site.  Worshipping Jesus actually started two different threads in an effort to TEACH you what you finally seem to accept.

    So why did you buck so hard against all of us who have been telling you the Holy Spirit is OF God, and not God Most High himself?


    Hi Mike,

    The HolySpirit is God. (see Luke 1:35 / Acts 5:3-4)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #311416
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 02 2012,15:59)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2012,08:46)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,14:03)
    Hi Mike,

    The Holy Spirit IS the spirit of God Most High.


    Kudos, Ed!  

    This is what MANY people have been trying to tell you for YEARS on this site.  Worshipping Jesus actually started two different threads in an effort to TEACH you what you finally seem to accept.

    So why did you buck so hard against all of us who have been telling you the Holy Spirit is OF God, and not God Most High himself?


    Hi Mike,

    The HolySpirit is God. (see Luke 1:35 / Acts 5:3-4)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    the holy spirit ,his the spirit of God as far that he make it known to creation ,BUT IT CAN NOT BE HIS SPIRIT AS WHAT HE THINKS OR PLANS ONLY WHAT HE REVEAL ,NO MORE NO LESS,BUT IT IS THE ONLY TRUTH ON HAND IN ALL CREATION ,

    NO ONE CAN KNOW THE MIND OF GOD OR HIS PLANS UNLESS HE REVEAL IT .

    #311420
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2012,08:46)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,14:03)
    Hi Mike,

    The Holy Spirit IS the spirit of God Most High.


    Kudos, Ed!  

    This is what MANY people have been trying to tell you for YEARS on this site.  Worshipping Jesus actually started two different threads in an effort to TEACH you what you finally seem to accept.

    So why did you buck so hard against all of us who have been telling you the Holy Spirit is OF God, and not God Most High himself?


    Mike,

    How many “YEARS” and for how many more “YEARS” are you going to argue with Ed J simply for the sake of arguing? Certainly you have become blue in the face at some point in time in these “YEARS”!  :D

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #311422
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,15:59)
    Hi Mike,

    The HolySpirit is God.


    So then the following DOES accurately portray your understanding, right?

    14 God Most High became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen God Most High's glory, the glory of the only begotten, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Ed, you say the Holy Spirit is God – the Father of Jesus.  And you say the Holy Spirit is the Word who was with God in the beginning.  How can the Word come FROM the Father, full of grace, if the Word actually IS the Father?

    You are getting tripped up by your own doctrine.  Why don't you just say for all of us here that my paraphrase of 1:14 is how you understand it?  Why try to change my words to “Holy Spirit” in one post, and then turn around and say the Holy Spirit is God in the next?  ???

    #311423
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 01 2012,17:55)
    Certainly you have become blue in the face at some point in time in these “YEARS”!


    Many times on many subjects.

    #311431
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2012,11:09)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,15:59)
    Hi Mike,

    The HolySpirit is God.


    So then the following DOES accurately portray your understanding, right?

    14 God Most High became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen God Most High's glory, the glory of the only begotten, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Ed, you say the Holy Spirit is God – the Father of Jesus.  And you say the Holy Spirit is the Word who was with God in the beginning.  How can the Word come FROM the Father, full of grace, if the Word actually IS the Father?

    You are getting tripped up by your own doctrine.  Why don't you just say for all of us here that my paraphrase of 1:14 is how you understand it?  Why try to change my words to “Holy Spirit” in one post, and then turn around and say the Holy Spirit is God in the next?  ???


    Hi Mike, (I have reposed this for you) here is how it lines up…

    And the Word [HolySpirit] was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
     (and we beheld [the HolySpirit's] his glory, the glory as of
     the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.         (John 1:14)

    The HolySpirit's glory is seen in the children of God, first in Jesus, then in us.

          the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14) com-
          pared
    with the glory which shall be revealed in us
    . (Romans 8:18)

          The Word of the oath, which was since the law,
          maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. (Hebrews 7:28)

          1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of
          incorruptible, by “The Word” of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

          Of his own will begat he us with “The Word” of truth,
          that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #311432
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 02 2012,10:55)
    Mike,

    How many “YEARS” and for how many more “YEARS” are you going to argue with Ed J simply for the sake of arguing?
    Certainly you have become blue in the face at some point in time in these “YEARS”!  :D


    Hi Frank,

    Mike changes the wording in an attempt to make truth into a strange doctrine.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #311454
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 02 2012,07:00)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 02 2012,01:01)

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 31 2012,23:53)
    Hi Jammin, I do.

    “The Word was God” (John 1:1)
    “God was in Christ” (2Cor. 5:19)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    the verse is correct.
    just do not add your imagination ed.

    rule #1
    read the context

    you do not know that ed


    Hi Jammin,

    “Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
    them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be
    upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there
    a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said,
    This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

    But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line;
    here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.” (Isaiah 28:9-13)

    “And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul
    also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;  As also in all his epistles,
    speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they
    that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:15-16)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    that verse is applicable to you ed.

    let me post the whole john 1.1-14
    John 1:1-14

    New Life Version (NLV)
    Christ Lived Before the World Was Made

    1 The Word (Christ) was in the beginning. The Word was with God. The Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 He made all things. Nothing was made without Him making it. 4 Life began by Him. His Life was the Light for men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness. The darkness has never been able to put out the Light.
    John the Baptist Tells of the Coming of Christ

    6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came to tell what he knew about the Light so that all men might believe through him. 8 John was not the Light, but he was sent to tell about the Light.

    9 This true Light, coming into the world, gives light to every man. 10 He came into the world. The world was made by Him, but it did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, but His own did not receive Him. 12 He gave the right and the power to become children of God to those who received Him. He gave this to those who put their trust in His name. 13 These children of God were not born of blood and of flesh and of man’s desires, but they were born of God. 14 Christ became human flesh and lived among us. We saw His shining-greatness. This greatness is given only to a much-loved Son from His Father. He was full of loving-favor and truth.

    do you see that ed???
    that is very clear in the bible. the Word is Christ.you do not need to jump to 2 cor to insert your imagination.
    i read the context of the bible and it says that the Word is the son of God/Christ.

    that is the right way to read your bible.

    study hard boy

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