John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #102957
    Oxy
    Participant

    This is an interesting topic. John 1 In the beginning was the Word… and then later, all things were created by the Word.. then the Word of God spoke to Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, Nathan, Gad, Solomon, and so many others in the Old Testament. Then the Word became flesh and was called Jesus. Later in Revelation 18 we see the Word of God on a white horse with His garment dipped in blood.

    Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever. The one and only Word of God!

    #102960
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 25 2008,10:48)
    T8….Jesus was not the one who said (HE) saw Abraham that was what the lying Jew were trying to make him out as saying, and no where did Jesus say He was (BORN) before Abraham, your forcing the text to fit your ideology of preexistence. There is only One scripture that the debate of Jesus preexistence comes down to and that is John 1:1 and it will only work if you transpose the word (WORD) to Mean Jesus. as you and the trinitarians do. Don't you think if Jesus preexisted there would be a (SPECIFIC) statement made in Scripture clearing that point. Why is there no such Statement, But we find Peter Making the statement to the foreordained Jesus and Him coming into existence in His time.

    peace brother……..gene


    Jesus said in John 8:58, “Before Abraham, I am”. Why not read it for what it says instead of placing it into a context to try an nullify its simple message.

    I also think you are wrong about one scripture saying it or teaching it. There are many good reasons why people believe it, besides John 1:1 and the John 8:58 scripture I mentioned above.

    John 1:15
    John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “

    Jude 1:25
    to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    Colossians 1:17
    He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Revelation 22:16
    “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

    Micah 5:2
    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

    Hebrews 1:1-2
    1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    Philippians 2:5-8
    5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!

    John 17:5
    And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    Colossians 1:15-16
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made

    Proverbs 30:4
    Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

    Ezekiel 8:1-3
    1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
    2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
    3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

    Revelation 1:12-18,
    12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
    13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
    14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
    15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
    16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
    17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
    18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

    This is more like a theme in the scriptures, than one or two difficult scriptures. In fact, there may even be less evidence given about the Tribulation than the son of God being with God in some form before creation or at least existing before his physical birth.

    #102962
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 25 2008,18:26)
    Thanks for that brother Nick, yes he was born like you and me to a woman on this earth but declared as Son of God by power of the Spirit of God (Rom 1:3-4)


    Hi GM,
    Certainly the power of his anointing declared that he was the awaited son of God.

    But that says nothing of his origins.

    #102965
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GM,
    God has a heavenly family.

    Eph 3
    8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

    9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    12In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

    13Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

    14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

    15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

    #102969
    gollamudi
    Participant

    God's creation itself is His family that's why we are created in Christ Jesus to be God's children.

    #103012
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8………with all that so-called evidence then why has the idea of Jesus preexistences be argued by thousand of Scholars for Centuries if it is so clear as you suppose it is. Why has it boiled down to John 1:1 as the only (Specific) proof text then. That trinitarians use to prove Jesus' preexistence and equality with God then. Not One text you presented can be conclusive of Jesus' preexistence without you adding something to the text to make it be specific. If it were so clear there would not be all the arguments over it would there, and i noticed you conveniently left out what Peter Said regarding Jesus being (Foreordained) which shows He was not in existence prior to His berth. If you are going to deal fairly with this subject you need to consider all the other texts that show He would come from His race of people as Moses quoted God saying. You would have to conceder Geneses where God said that the SEED OF THE WOMAN would bruise the head of the serpent, not some preexistent being.You are channeling all your thoughts on what supports you theology and not considering (ALL) the texts on the subject. IMO

    peace brother…………gene

    #103013
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Oxy………good to hear from you Brother.

    peace to you and yours………..gene

    #103087
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 27 2008,00:17)
    God's creation itself is His family that's why we are created in Christ Jesus to be God's children.


    Hi, can I suggest that rather than God's creation being God's family, that we as people have the potential to be God's children upon our repentance and acceptance of the Lordship Jesus Christ.

    #103092
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Oxy,
    How do we ACCEPT the Lordship of Jesus?
    Is it shown in Acts or elsewhere in scripture?

    #103093
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 27 2008,03:48)
    T8………with all that so-called evidence then why has the idea of Jesus preexistences be argued by thousand of Scholars for Centuries if it is so clear as you suppose it is. Why has it boiled down to John 1:1 as the only (Specific) proof text then. That trinitarians use to prove Jesus' preexistence and equality with God then. Not One text you presented can be conclusive of Jesus' preexistence without you adding something to the text to make it be specific. If it were so clear there would not be all the arguments over it would there, and i noticed you conveniently left out what Peter Said regarding Jesus being (Foreordained) which shows He was not in existence prior to His berth. If you are going to deal fairly with this subject you need to consider all the other texts that show He would come from His race of people as Moses quoted God saying. You would have to conceder Geneses where God said that the SEED OF THE WOMAN would bruise the head of the serpent, not some preexistent being.You are channeling all your thoughts on what supports you theology and not considering (ALL) the texts on the subject. IMO

    peace brother…………gene


    Gene. When you read those scriptures as they are without adding anything that is the message that comes out.

    Rather it is you who are adding to the texts to say that they are not saying what they are saying.

    “Before Abraham I am” means what it means. You need to add words in order to say that he wasn't saying “Before Abraham, I am”.

    Same with all the scriptures that say that God created all through Jesus. You actually need to add stuff in order to say that God actually didn't create all things through Jesus.

    Your rebuttal is quite cheeky because the very thing you say I am doing is what you are doing. I am actually just quoting the scriptures as they are. You are the one adding to them to change the meaning that you get when you read them.

    I am not trying to be rude or offend, but that is what is happening here.

    #103096
    TimothyVI
    Participant

    ” before Abraham was I am” says nothing clearly to me except that the past or present tense
    was not stated clearly enough for us to even understand what was meant.
    The Pharisees were ready to stone Jesus because he answered them in a riddle.

    Tim

    #103097
    Tiffany
    Participant

    Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 27 2008,23:05)
    ” before Abraham was I am” says nothing clearly to me except that the past or present tense
    was not stated clearly enough for us to even understand what was meant.
    The Pharisees were ready to stone Jesus because he answered them in a riddle.

    Tim


    Wait a minute, you mean to tell me if I say before Abraham,it does not say that? That is denying scripture, and not from God IMO. And I am, means what? I thought if I am, before someone, that I am. How else could you understand that.
    Sorry Timothy, I do not agree with you.
    Love Irene

    #103101
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Tiffany @ Aug. 28 2008,00:18)

    Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 27 2008,23:05)
    ” before Abraham was I am” says nothing clearly to me except that the past or present tense
    was not stated clearly enough for us to even understand what was meant.
    The Pharisees were ready to stone Jesus because he answered them in a riddle.

    Tim


    Wait a minute, you mean to tell me if I say before Abraham,it does not say that? That is denying scripture, and not from God IMO. And I am, means what? I thought if I am, before someone, that I am. How else could you understand that.
    Sorry Timothy, I do not agree with you.
    Love Irene


    Tooks the words out of my mouth…

    By the way thank you all for you kind words and prayers….I have been extremely busy as you can imagine…

    Tim, David, GM, Gene, Mandy, Irene, Nick, WJ,Chosen, and anyone else I may have forgotten..Thank You

    #103103
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Tiffany……..It does not say in what (WAY) he was before Abraham does it, you and T8 are (ASSUMING) Jesus meant He existed as an actual being, but thats not what it says, in fact Jesus was foreordained from the foundations of the world, but was (MANIFESTED) in our time Just as Peter said. God said Jesus would come from His brethren, He did not say He would come from a preexistent state of being did He. You and T8 both are (ASSUMING) thats the meaning of the text, because by forcing the text it can be made to fit you theologies, Jesus could have meant He was before Abraham, not actually existing in any form of a being but was in the plan and Will of God. If you can prove His existence then what was His name and show us any of His activity prior to coming to earth then. Nothing can be produced without altering the spicific word of the texts, why is that, because scripture does not represent Jesus as a preexisting being , but as a son of God born and brought into existence from man kind, who through the POWER OF GOD overcame Sin. Giving us great hope of being able with the Help of GOD to also overcome even as He did the the effectual working of God the Father. Jesus is our example because He is (EXACTLY) the same as we are in (EVERY) way, not Just in part but (EXACTLY) the SAME. IMO

    peace to you all…………..gene

    #103104
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,02:39)
     If you can prove His existence then what was His name and show us any of His activity prior to coming to earth then.


    Colossians 1:15-19… 15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

    #103105
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,02:39)
    Tiffany……..It does not say in what (WAY) he was before Abraham does it, you and T8 are (ASSUMING) Jesus meant He existed as an actual being, but thats not what it says, in fact Jesus was foreordained from the foundations of the world, but was (MANIFESTED) in our time Just as Peter said. God said Jesus would come from His brethren, He did not say He would come from a preexistent state of being did He. You and T8 both are (ASSUMING) thats the meaning of the text, because by forcing the text it can be made to fit you theologies, Jesus could have meant He was before Abraham, not actually existing in any form of a being but was in the plan and Will of God.  If you can prove His existence then what was His name and show us any of His activity prior to coming to earth then. Nothing can be produced without altering the spicific word of the texts, why is that, because scripture does not represent Jesus as a preexisting being , but as a son of God born and brought into existence from man kind, who through the POWER OF GOD overcame Sin. Giving us great hope of being able with the Help of GOD to also overcome even as He did the the effectual working of God the Father. Jesus is our example because He is (EXACTLY) the same as we are in (EVERY) way, not Just in part but (EXACTLY) the SAME. IMO

    peace to you all…………..gene


    Proverbs 8:22-36…. 22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [a] , [b]
    before his deeds of old;

    23 I was appointed [c] from eternity,
    from the beginning, before the world began.

    24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
    when there were no springs abounding with water;

    25 before the mountains were settled in place,
    before the hills, I was given birth,

    26 before he made the earth or its fields
    or any of the dust of the world.

    27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
    when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

    28 when he established the clouds above
    and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

    29 when he gave the sea its boundary
    so the waters would not overstep his command,
    and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

    30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
    I was filled with delight day after day,
    rejoicing always in his presence,

    31 rejoicing in his whole world
    and delighting in mankind.

    32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me;
    blessed are those who keep my ways.

    33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
    do not ignore it.

    34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
    watching daily at my doors,
    waiting at my doorway.

    35 For whoever finds me finds life
    and receives favor from the LORD.

    36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
    all who hate me love death.”

    #103107
    Jodi
    Participant

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 27 2008,07:56)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,02:39)
    If you can prove His existence then what was His name and show us any of His activity prior to coming to earth then.


    Colossians 1:15-19… 15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,


    Good scripture DK!

    Jesus is our brother and our leader. He is firstborn of his kind, which is the human filled with the image of God. We too will be just like he is.

    1 Corinthians 15:48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

    #103108
    Jodi
    Participant

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 27 2008,07:58)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,02:39)
    Tiffany……..It does not say in what (WAY) he was before Abraham does it, you and T8 are (ASSUMING) Jesus meant He existed as an actual being, but thats not what it says, in fact Jesus was foreordained from the foundations of the world, but was (MANIFESTED) in our time Just as Peter said. God said Jesus would come from His brethren, He did not say He would come from a preexistent state of being did He. You and T8 both are (ASSUMING) thats the meaning of the text, because by forcing the text it can be made to fit you theologies, Jesus could have meant He was before Abraham, not actually existing in any form of a being but was in the plan and Will of God. If you can prove His existence then what was His name and show us any of His activity prior to coming to earth then. Nothing can be produced without altering the spicific word of the texts, why is that, because scripture does not represent Jesus as a preexisting being , but as a son of God born and brought into existence from man kind, who through the POWER OF GOD overcame Sin. Giving us great hope of being able with the Help of GOD to also overcome even as He did the the effectual working of God the Father. Jesus is our example because He is (EXACTLY) the same as we are in (EVERY) way, not Just in part but (EXACTLY) the SAME. IMO

    peace to you all…………..gene


    Proverbs 8:22-36…. 22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [a] ,
    before his deeds of old;

    23 I was appointed [c] from eternity,
    from the beginning, before the world began.

    24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
    when there were no springs abounding with water;

    25 before the mountains were settled in place,
    before the hills, I was given birth,

    26 before he made the earth or its fields
    or any of the dust of the world.

    27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
    when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

    28 when he established the clouds above
    and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

    29 when he gave the sea its boundary
    so the waters would not overstep his command,
    and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

    30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
    I was filled with delight day after day,
    rejoicing always in his presence,

    31 rejoicing in his whole world
    and delighting in mankind.

    32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me;
    blessed are those who keep my ways.

    33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
    do not ignore it.

    34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
    watching daily at my doors,
    waiting at my doorway.

    35 For whoever finds me finds life
    and receives favor from the LORD.

    36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
    all who hate me love death.”


    So DK, you believe that Yeshua in his preexistent state was a SHE?

    [b]Proverbs 8:1 Does not wisdom call, and does not understanding raise her voice? 2 On the heights, beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand; 3 beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries out: 4 “To you, O people, I call, and my cry is to all that live. 5 O simple ones, learn prudence; acquire intelligence, you who lack it. 6 Hear, for I will speak noble things, and from my lips will come what is right; 7 for my mouth will utter truth; wickedness is an abomination to my lips. 8 All the words of my mouth are righteous; there is nothing twisted or crooked in them. 9 They are all straight to one who understands and right to those who find knowledge. 10 Take my instruction instead of silver, and knowledge rather than choice gold; 11 for wisdom is better than jewels, and all that you may desire cannot compare with her.

    12 I, wisdom, live with prudence, and I attain knowledge and discretion. 13 The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate. 14 I have good advice and sound wisdom; I have insight, I have strength. 15 By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just; 16 by me rulers rule, and nobles, all who govern rightly. 17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me. 18 Riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and prosperity. 19 My fruit is better than gold, even fine gold, and my yield than choice silver. 20 I walk in the way of righteousness, along the paths of justice, 21 endowing with wealth those who love me, and filling their treasuries.

    22 The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. 23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth— 26 when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the world's first bits of soil. 27 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, 29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 then I was beside him, like a master worker; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, 31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the human race.

    32 “And now, my children, listen to me: happy are those who keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction and be wise, and do not neglect it. 34 Happy is the one who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting beside my doors. 35 For whoever finds me finds life and obtains favor from the Lord; 36 but those who miss me injure themselves; all who hate me love death.”

    #103109
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi @ Aug. 28 2008,03:19)

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 27 2008,07:58)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,02:39)
    Tiffany……..It does not say in what (WAY) he was before Abraham does it, you and T8 are (ASSUMING) Jesus meant He existed as an actual being, but thats not what it says, in fact Jesus was foreordained from the foundations of the world, but was (MANIFESTED) in our time Just as Peter said. God said Jesus would come from His brethren, He did not say He would come from a preexistent state of being did He. You and T8 both are (ASSUMING) thats the meaning of the text, because by forcing the text it can be made to fit you theologies, Jesus could have meant He was before Abraham, not actually existing in any form of a being but was in the plan and Will of God.  If you can prove His existence then what was His name and show us any of His activity prior to coming to earth then. Nothing can be produced without altering the spicific word of the texts, why is that, because scripture does not represent Jesus as a preexisting being , but as a son of God born and brought into existence from man kind, who through the POWER OF GOD overcame Sin. Giving us great hope of being able with the Help of GOD to also overcome even as He did the the effectual working of God the Father. Jesus is our example because He is (EXACTLY) the same as we are in (EVERY) way, not Just in part but (EXACTLY) the SAME. IMO

    peace to you all…………..gene


    Proverbs 8:22-36…. 22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [a] ,
          before his deeds of old;

    23 I was appointed [c] from eternity,
          from the beginning, before the world began.

    24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
          when there were no springs abounding with water;

    25 before the mountains were settled in place,
          before the hills, I was given birth,

    26 before he made the earth or its fields
          or any of the dust of the world.

    27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
          when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

    28 when he established the clouds above
          and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

    29 when he gave the sea its boundary
          so the waters would not overstep his command,
          and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

    30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
          I was filled with delight day after day,
          rejoicing always in his presence,

    31 rejoicing in his whole world
          and delighting in mankind.

    32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me;
          blessed are those who keep my ways.

    33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
          do not ignore it.

    34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
          watching daily at my doors,
          waiting at my doorway.

    35 For whoever finds me finds life
          and receives favor from the LORD.

    36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
          all who hate me love death.”


    So DK, you believe that Yeshua in his preexistent state was a SHE?  

    [b]Proverbs 8:1 Does not wisdom call, and does not understanding raise her voice? 2 On the heights, beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand; 3 beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries out: 4 “To you, O people, I call, and my cry is to all that live. 5 O simple ones, learn prudence; acquire intelligence, you who lack it. 6 Hear, for I will speak noble things, and from my lips will come what is right; 7 for my mouth will utter truth; wickedness is an abomination to my lips. 8 All the words of my mouth are righteous; there is nothing twisted or crooked in them. 9 They are all straight to one who understands and right to those who find knowledge. 10 Take my instruction instead of silver, and knowledge rather than choice gold; 11 for wisdom is better than jewels, and all that you may desire cannot compare with her.

    12 I, wisdom, live with prudence, and I attain knowledge and discretion. 13 The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate. 14 I have good advice and sound wisdom; I have insight, I have strength. 15 By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just; 16 by me rulers rule, and nobles, all who govern rightly. 17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me. 18 Riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and prosperity. 19 My fruit is better than gold, even fine gold, and my yield than choice silver. 20 I walk in the way of righteousness, along the paths of justice, 21 endowing with wealth those who love me, and filling their treasuries.

    22 The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. 23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth— 26 when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the world's first bits of soil. 27 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, 29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 then I was beside him, like a master worker; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, 31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the human race.

    32 “And now, my children, listen to me: happy are those who keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction and be wise, and do not neglect it. 34 Happy is the one who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting beside my doors. 35 For whoever finds me finds life and obtains favor from the Lord; 36 but those who miss me injure themselves; all who hate me love death.”


    :D …Of course not…do a little research on the Hebrew language used here and you will see the reasoning behind verse 3

    #103110
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi @ Aug. 28 2008,03:19)

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 27 2008,07:58)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,02:39)
    Tiffany……..It does not say in what (WAY) he was before Abraham does it, you and T8 are (ASSUMING) Jesus meant He existed as an actual being, but thats not what it says, in fact Jesus was foreordained from the foundations of the world, but was (MANIFESTED) in our time Just as Peter said. God said Jesus would come from His brethren, He did not say He would come from a preexistent state of being did He. You and T8 both are (ASSUMING) thats the meaning of the text, because by forcing the text it can be made to fit you theologies, Jesus could have meant He was before Abraham, not actually existing in any form of a being but was in the plan and Will of God.  If you can prove His existence then what was His name and show us any of His activity prior to coming to earth then. Nothing can be produced without altering the spicific word of the texts, why is that, because scripture does not represent Jesus as a preexisting being , but as a son of God born and brought into existence from man kind, who through the POWER OF GOD overcame Sin. Giving us great hope of being able with the Help of GOD to also overcome even as He did the the effectual working of God the Father. Jesus is our example because He is (EXACTLY) the same as we are in (EVERY) way, not Just in part but (EXACTLY) the SAME. IMO

    peace to you all…………..gene


    Proverbs 8:22-36…. 22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [a] ,
          before his deeds of old;

    23 I was appointed [c] from eternity,
          from the beginning, before the world began.

    24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
          when there were no springs abounding with water;

    25 before the mountains were settled in place,
          before the hills, I was given birth,

    26 before he made the earth or its fields
          or any of the dust of the world.

    27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
          when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

    28 when he established the clouds above
          and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

    29 when he gave the sea its boundary
          so the waters would not overstep his command,
          and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

    30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
          I was filled with delight day after day,
          rejoicing always in his presence,

    31 rejoicing in his whole world
          and delighting in mankind.

    32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me;
          blessed are those who keep my ways.

    33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
          do not ignore it.

    34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
          watching daily at my doors,
          waiting at my doorway.

    35 For whoever finds me finds life
          and receives favor from the LORD.

    36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
          all who hate me love death.”


    So DK, you believe that Yeshua in his preexistent state was a SHE?  

    [b]Proverbs 8:1 Does not wisdom call, and does not understanding raise her voice? 2 On the heights, beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand; 3 beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries out: 4 “To you, O people, I call, and my cry is to all that live. 5 O simple ones, learn prudence; acquire intelligence, you who lack it. 6 Hear, for I will speak noble things, and from my lips will come what is right; 7 for my mouth will utter truth; wickedness is an abomination to my lips. 8 All the words of my mouth are righteous; there is nothing twisted or crooked in them. 9 They are all straight to one who understands and right to those who find knowledge. 10 Take my instruction instead of silver, and knowledge rather than choice gold; 11 for wisdom is better than jewels, and all that you may desire cannot compare with her.

    12 I, wisdom, live with prudence, and I attain knowledge and discretion. 13 The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate. 14 I have good advice and sound wisdom; I have insight, I have strength. 15 By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just; 16 by me rulers rule, and nobles, all who govern rightly. 17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me. 18 Riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and prosperity. 19 My fruit is better than gold, even fine gold, and my yield than choice silver. 20 I walk in the way of righteousness, along the paths of justice, 21 endowing with wealth those who love me, and filling their treasuries.

    22 The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. 23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth— 26 when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the world's first bits of soil. 27 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, 29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 then I was beside him, like a master worker; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, 31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the human race.

    32 “And now, my children, listen to me: happy are those who keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction and be wise, and do not neglect it. 34 Happy is the one who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting beside my doors. 35 For whoever finds me finds life and obtains favor from the Lord; 36 but those who miss me injure themselves; all who hate me love death.”


    :D …Of course not…do a little research on the Hebrew language used here and you will see the reasoning behind verse 3

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