John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 961 through 980 (of 25,995 total)
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  • #101971
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    To Gene Balthrop.

    Before or post my reply, I want to get one thing straight regarding your understanding of John 1:1a.
    i.e., “In the beginning was the logos”.

    Are you saying that THE logos is using THE because the logos is actually God, therefore the use of the definite article with Logos?
    Or are you saying that the logos is an attribute of God and the use of the definite article is for another reason?

    If the latter answer, what is the reason for using the definite article if the Logos is not a person (either Jesus or God himself)?

    #102000
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8………what i am saying is applying the definite article to Logos, does (Not) make it a Person an attribute can also be used with definite articles also. for instance (the) intellect of (the) man guided Him, or (the) intellect of man guides him. in both cases the definite article is not separating the man from his intellect is it even though a definite article was used. IN the beginning of all things was the word and the word was with God and was GOD, just as it says. The word is as much part of God as anything else is in fact GOD's word spoke everything into existence as scripture say it did, and Jesus said the words He spoke (ARE)spirit and HE said GOD is Spirit.

    SO if we put it together GOD's WORD (IS) part of HIMSELF. Just as your words are Part of YOU. Your words can not be separated from you, neither can GOD'S words be separated from Him either because words are the expression of the intellect of the mind just as GOD's words are the expression of his mind also. If you read John 1:1 just like it is written and use the meanings of the words used it all makes sense and also remember John knew who Jesus was and if he want it to mean Jesus he would have just said Jesus, don't you think?

    peace brother ………….gene

    #102003
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8………this whole thing about John 1:1 is what trinitarians us to do two things , one to try to show Jesus' preexistence and His Identity as the God of creation. Both preexistences and trinitarians hinge the belief system on this simple verse and the word Jesus is not even in it. It's all just smoke and mirrors, the truth is that John was expressing what was in the very beginning of all things and that was his (ONLY) point and nothing else. If trinitarians as well as preexistences have to have that verse to prove there positions, there positions are weak at best. Because there is no specific mention of Jesus at all in the text and transposing it to mean that is forcing the text. IMO

    love and peace to you and yours T8………….gene

    #102009
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 19 2008,01:38)
    T8………this whole thing about John 1:1 is what trinitarians us to do two things , one to try to show Jesus' preexistence and His Identity as the God of creation. Both preexistences and trinitarians hinge the belief system on this simple verse and the word Jesus is not even in it. It's all just smoke and mirrors, the truth is that John was expressing what was in the very beginning of all things and that was his (ONLY) point and nothing else. If trinitarians as well as preexistences have to have that verse to prove there positions, there positions are weak at best. Because there is no specific mention of Jesus at all in the text and transposing it to mean that is forcing the text. IMO

    love and peace to you and yours T8………….gene


    the “word” mentioned at John 1:1 IS referring to Jesus…John is simply showing Jesus relationship to his Father…I have never gotten the big deal with this verse..There are a sufficient amount of other verses to disprove the trinity, I don't see a need to get lost in words over this one.

    #102011
    Irene
    Participant

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 19 2008,02:25)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 19 2008,01:38)
    T8………this whole thing about John 1:1 is what trinitarians us to do two things , one to try to show Jesus' preexistence and His Identity as the God of creation. Both preexistences and trinitarians hinge the belief system on this simple verse and the word Jesus is not even in it. It's all just smoke and mirrors, the truth is that John was expressing what was in the very beginning of all things and that was his (ONLY) point and nothing else. If trinitarians as well as preexistences have to have that verse to prove there positions, there positions are weak at best. Because there is no specific mention of Jesus at all in the text and transposing it to mean that is forcing the text. IMO

    love and peace to you and yours T8………….gene


    the “word” mentioned at John 1:1 IS referring to Jesus…John is simply showing Jesus relationship to his Father…I have never gotten the big deal with this verse..There are a sufficient amount of other verses to disprove the trinity, I don't see a need to get lost in words over this one.


    Well Hello stranger, have not seen you post for awhile, how are you doing?
    You are right, I don/t know either why people fall over John 1:1 so much. We have other scriptures to see if God is a trinity or not ore if Jesus was there before the world was. And He was according to Co. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14 John 17:5 I believe when a scripture is not clear to us, that we should see if there are other scriptures that can help us to understand.
    I mainly writing this for Gen, I know you do understand the preexisting if Jesus.
    Peace and Love Irene

    #102017
    Samuel
    Participant

    I think we tend to make things more complicated than they actually are.

    We think that it should be something that is hard to understand that only we can understand. Or that you have to go to school to understand and debate about it for years on end to come to a conclusion.

    Lets look at this scripture:

    Quote

    John 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    How much more plain can that be?

    In the beginning there was the word, and that word was with GOD, and that word was GOD.

    Too much debate. The writer is making a clear point.

    Our salvation is in Jesus Christ.

    No matter what else is said by any one or how they say it…the only way we are going to be saved is by confessing with our mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord. And, obeying his commandments.

    There is no other way.
    This is the way.
    The only way.
    Any other way will cause us to die in our sins.

    #102059
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Samuel,
    I think you need to look again at the way of Christ.
    Romans 10 was written to the saints, encouraging them to walk in the Spirit.
    It was never given to us as a new way of salvation that bypasses the cross, the death and resurrection[Rom6]

    #102165
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Irene…..what's so important about John 1:1, is trinitarians as well as preexistences can not find any other scripture that shows were Jesus is said to specifically preexist at all so they all uses John to try to get across they point, because if they can get people to see Jesus as the Word John is speaking of they both have a specific scripture to prove there points, and with out transposing the word written in John they have (NO) SPECIFIC Text that says Jesus preexisted. That why John 1:1 is the most contested scripture in the bible by scholars and Bible teachers.

    Peace to you and yours……….gene

    #102172
    Irene
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 20 2008,03:08)
    Irene…..what's so important about John 1:1, is trinitarians as well as preexistences can not find any other scripture that shows were Jesus is said to specifically preexist at all so they all uses John to try to get across they point, because if they can get people to see Jesus as the Word John is speaking of they both have a specific scripture to prove there points, and with out transposing the word written in John they have (NO) SPECIFIC Text that says Jesus preexisted. That why John 1:1 is the most contested scripture in the bible by scholars and Bible teachers.

    Peace to you and yours……….gene


    Did you even read my last post? I did give clear scriptures that show the preexsisting of Jesus.
    Thats all I am so tired of this, when people just ignore things.
    Peace and Love Irene
    P.S. thats it for me.

    #102387
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Irene…..I am not trying to be disrespectful, but the issue of Jesus' preexistences has been heavily debated for centuries by Scholars, the reason being there is (NO) (SPECIFIC) Statement of Jesus' preexistences. There is inference but no (absolute) statement or there would not be the heavy debating on the subject as has been over the centuries. Believe me it is (NOT) as clear as you may think.

    Love and peace to you and yours…………gene

    #102595
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Pahrisees said “”You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

    Jesus settled it when he replied “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!”

    At this, they picked up stones to stone him.

    Look at it closely. The Jews say you are not yet fifty and Jesus said before Abraham, I am.

    When you say I am, are you not saying that you exist? e.g., are you t8, I am. To say that I am t8 means that I exist.

    I AM THEREFORE I EXIST.

    Jesus also said  “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going”.

    Where did Jesus go? Was it not heaven? If you say that he didn't come from heaven, then does that mean that you one of the people that doesn't know where he came from?

    Jesus also said, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.”

    Jesus spoke such to the Pharisees. Who is he saying this to today?

    #102597
    TimothyVI
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 22 2008,23:05)
    Jesus settled it when he replied “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!”


    Hi T8,
    Actually the word born was added.
    What he actually said was “before Abraham was I am”
    Which is poor sentence structure to say the least.

    Wasn't God called the great I am?

    What if the comma was put after Abraham.
    Could Jesus have just been saying before Abraham,
    was I am? Before Abraham, was God.

    Tim

    #102599
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The use of I am in the New Testament is relatively common and in no instance is it used to say that someone was God.

    Does the use of “ego eimi” automatically identify the speaker as Yahweh, the I AM?

    In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.” Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14.

    #102613
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    Hi T8,
    Actually the word born was added.
    What he actually said was “before Abraham was I am”

    Or, it could just as easily be translated “existed” or “was.” Note the context and why he said what he did. But of course, the word “born” isn't there.

    Quote
    What if the comma was put after Abraham.
    Could Jesus have just been saying before Abraham,
    was I am? Before Abraham, was God.

    Well, they were discussing his age. His obvious response would be to say that he was before Abraham.

    The question of the Jews (verse 57) to which Jesus was replying had to do with age, not identity. Hence the context means it should be translated as AT, Mo, CBW, SE, NWT and other's translate it, as ““Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” Jesus’ reply logically dealt with his age, the length of his existence.

    Says A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, by A. T. Robertson: “The verb [ei·mi′] . . . Sometimes it does express existence as a predicate like any other verb, as in [e·go′ ei·mi′] (Jo. 8:58).”—Nashville, Tenn.; 1934, p. 394.

    #102820
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8….Jesus was not the one who said (HE) saw Abraham that was what the lying Jew were trying to make him out as saying, and no where did Jesus say He was (BORN) before Abraham, your forcing the text to fit your ideology of preexistence. There is only One scripture that the debate of Jesus preexistence comes down to and that is John 1:1 and it will only work if you transpose the word (WORD) to Mean Jesus. as you and the trinitarians do. Don't you think if Jesus preexisted there would be a (SPECIFIC) statement made in Scripture clearing that point. Why is there no such Statement, But we find Peter Making the statement to the foreordained Jesus and Him coming into existence in His time.

    peace brother……..gene

    #102822
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GB,
    John 8:56
    ” Your father Abraham rejoiced to see [1492] My day, and he saw [1492] it and was glad.”

    John 8:57
    So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You [3708] seen Abraham?”

    Number 1492
    Transliteration:
    eido {i'-do} or oida {oy'-da}
    Word Origin:
    a root word
    TDNT:
    5:116, *
    Part of Speech:
    verb
    Usage in the KJV:
    know 282, cannot tell 3756 8, know how 7, wist 6, misc 19, see 314, behold 16, look 5, perceive 5, vr see 3, vr know 1

    Total: 666
    Definition:
    to see
    to perceive with the eyes
    to perceive by any of the senses
    to perceive, notice, discern, discover
    to see
    i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
    to pay attention, observe
    to see about something
    i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
    to inspect, examine
    to look at, behold
    to experience any state or condition
    to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
    to know
    to know of anything
    to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
    of any fact
    the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
    to know how, to be skilled in
    to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12) For Synonyms see entry 5825

    Number 3708
    Transliteration:
    horao {hor-ah'-o}
    Word Origin:
    properly, to stare at [cf 3700]
    TDNT:
    5:315,706
    Part of Speech:
    verb
    Usage in the KJV:
    see 51, take heed 5, behold 1, perceive 1, not tr 1

    Total: 59
    Definition:
    to see with the eyes
    to see with the mind, to perceive, know
    to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
    to see, to look to
    to take heed, beware
    to care for, pay heed to
    I was seen, showed myself, appeared For Synonyms see entry 5822

    #102846
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 25 2008,10:48)
    T8….Jesus was not the one who said (HE) saw Abraham that was what the lying Jew were trying to make him out as saying, and no where did Jesus say He was (BORN) before Abraham, your forcing the text to fit your ideology of preexistence. There is only One scripture that the debate of Jesus preexistence comes down to and that is John 1:1 and it will only work if you transpose the word (WORD) to Mean Jesus. as you and the trinitarians do. Don't you think if Jesus preexisted there would be a (SPECIFIC) statement made in Scripture clearing that point. Why is there no such Statement, But we find Peter Making the statement to the foreordained Jesus and Him coming into existence in His time.

    peace brother……..gene


    Amen to that post brother Gene, no son of man can pre-exist before his birth, if so we make the Mormonism to be proved as they believe all souls pre-exist before their birth.

    Thanks and love to you
    Adam

    #102847
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GM,
    Of course he is the son of God who was sent into the world[1Jn4]

    #102849
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Thanks for that brother Nick, yes he was born like you and me to a woman on this earth but declared as Son of God by power of the Spirit of God (Rom 1:3-4)

    #102911
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam…..one thing about John 1:1, we don't have to switch any meanings and we understand it Just as it is written , i wish others could see that.

    love and peace to you and yours…………gene

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