John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 1,001 through 1,020 (of 25,995 total)
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  • #103111
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DK…..each thing you brought up can be easily explained, One Your are transposing Jesus for the word wisdom, no where in the text is the word Jesus mentioned. So why force the text to say it then. And Jesus is indeed first born into eternal life from God Creation, remember it says first (BORN) Not created, so what was he (BORN) from, (the creation). It also say He was first born of MANY BRETHREN, So First born is in reference from the dead, Not all creation as a whole as you and preexistences think. Any who does not see Jesus as a perfected Human Being, Just does not see Jesus in my opinion.

    peace and love to you and yours, hope the baby is doing well…………..gene

    #103112
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DK

    Jesus being the Wisdom of Proverbs 8 does not make sense to me, because how then would people be able to follow her once Jesus was born a human being?

    How was Jesus able to grow in knowledge and wisdom if wisdom now existed as an infant baby?

    #103113
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,04:07)
    DK…..each thing you brought up can be easily explained, One Your are transposing Jesus for the word wisdom, no where in the text is the word Jesus mentioned. So why force the text to say it then. And Jesus is indeed first born into eternal life from God Creation, remember it says first (BORN) Not created, so what was he (BORN) from, (the creation). It also say He was first born of MANY BRETHREN,  So First born is in reference from the dead, Not all creation as a whole as you and preexistences think. Any who does not see Jesus as a perfected Human Being, Just does not see Jesus in my opinion.

    peace and love to you and yours, hope the baby is doing well…………..gene


    born (bôrn)
    v.
    A past participle of bear1.
    adj. Abbr. b.
    1.
    a. Brought into life by birth.
    b. Brought into existence; created: A new nation was born with the revolution.

    cre·ate (kr-t)
    tr.v. cre·at·ed, cre·at·ing, cre·ates
    1. To cause to exist; bring into being. See Synonyms at found1.
    2. To give rise to; produce: That remark created a stir.

    Main Entry: create
    Part of Speech: verb
    Synonyms: beget, build, cause, compose, conceive, concoct, design, establish, fabricate, fashion, form, found, generate, imagine, invent, make, mold, originate, plan, procreate, reproduce, shape, start

    As far as Proverbs Ch 8…the only reason you deny this references Jesus is because it would contradict your theology..Question: If this Proverb is not referencing Jesus then who? And why do many NT writers Reference this verse when mentioning JEsus?

    I've mentioned this before..that the greek and hebrew words for create and beget are interchangeable, and also the word “born” has a similar meaning. It is so similar in fact that the words or forms of the words can be used interchangeably in most cases…

    #103114
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi @ Aug. 28 2008,04:50)
    Hi DK

    Jesus being the Wisdom of Proverbs 8 does not make sense to me, because how then would people be able to follow her once Jesus was born a human being?

    How was Jesus able to grow in knowledge and wisdom if wisdom now existed as an infant baby?


    You are looking at this the wrong way in my opinion..Jesus was prophesied to be born of a woman, so he had to follow the natural order of growth and creation that his father designed.

    With that being said, the person personified thru wisdom as being Jesus, had to GROW and become and adult. Remember Jesus did not begin his ministry until age 30. From that time onward he perfectly exuded the qualities talked about at Proverbs the 8th chapter.

    #103115
    Jodi
    Participant

    1 Peter 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

    Just what was Jesus manifested or revealed to us AS? Was it a preexisting being that died on the cross for our sins, is that what we are told?

    Jesus was REVEALED to us as a human being with weak flesh just like us. He was revealed as a baby that had to grow in wisdom, not as a preexisting spirit of wisdom.

    Who is the HE, that is being spoken of that was foreordained? The He is the child that “grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.”

    The He that was foreordained was NOT a preexistent being that would come down and temporarily be a human. The He that was foreordained was the infant born of Mary.

    To read John 8:58, as Jesus revealing that he preexisted is to in my opinion read the scripture with your carnal mind and not spiritually as Yeshua intended.

    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

    Abraham was able to see the day of Jesus. What day would it be that Abraham would rejoice in? What day of Jesus do we rejoice? Abraham did not PERSONALLY see and meet Jesus in his day. Abraham saw forward to the day when a man would be resurrected from the dead.

    Before Abraham was Jesus existed in God’s mind as the human being that would save the world.

    People, do you not think that God in the beginning had a plan and that He would carry out that plan?

    Does it really make sense that God would create a spirit Son, have that Spirit Son be man’s means of which to attain wisdom, then make that spirit into an infant that knows nothing?

    #103116
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi @ Aug. 28 2008,05:07)
    1 Peter 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you  21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

    Just what was Jesus manifested or revealed to us AS? Was it a preexisting being that died on the cross for our sins, is that what we are told?

    Jesus was REVEALED to us as a human being with weak flesh just like us. He was revealed as a baby that had to grow in wisdom, not as a preexisting spirit of wisdom.

    Who is the HE, that is being spoken of that was foreordained? The He is the child that “grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.”

    The He that was foreordained was NOT a preexistent being that would come down and temporarily be a human. The He that was foreordained was the infant born of Mary.

    To read John 8:58, as Jesus revealing that he preexisted is to in my opinion read the scripture with your carnal mind and not spiritually as Yeshua intended.

    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”  57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

    Abraham was able to see the day of Jesus. What day would it be that Abraham would rejoice in? What day of Jesus do we rejoice? Abraham did not PERSONALLY see and meet Jesus in his day. Abraham saw forward to the day when a man would be resurrected from the dead.

    Before Abraham was Jesus existed in God’s mind as the human being that would save the world.

    People, do you not think that God in the beginning had a plan and that He would carry out that plan?

    Does it really make sense that God would create a spirit Son, have that Spirit Son be man’s means of which to attain wisdom, then make that spirit into an infant that knows nothing?


    Yes it does…Jodi…you keep refering to Jesus as a baby..When the Jesus that I follow was a Fully Grown MAN full of Holy Spirit..Here let me help you see the natural progression of scriptures showing Jesus Pre-Existence..follow me now..

    Genesis 1:26.. 26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

    Genesis 3:15… 15 And I will put enmity
    between you and the woman,
    and between your offspring [a] and hers;
    he will crush [b] your head,
    and you will strike his heel.”

    Proverbs 8… 22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was appointed [d] from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.

    Daniel 7:13-14… 13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

    Micah 5:2… 2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
    though you are small among the clans [a] of Judah,
    out of you will come for me
    one who will be ruler over Israel,
    whose origins [b] are from of old,
    from ancient times. [c] “

    John 1:1.. 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 3:13…13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[a]

    John 6:62…62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

    John 8:23.. 23But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

    John 17:5..5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began

    1 Corinthians 10:4…4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

    1 Peter 1:10-11… 10Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

    2 Corinthians 8:9…9For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

    (IF HE DID NOT PRE EXIST..WHEN WAS HE RICH? HOW DID HE BECOME POOR?)

    Philippians 2:5-11… 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
    6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    7but made himself nothing,
    taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    8And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    and became obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!
    9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
    10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

    Hebrews 1:2-3…2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

    DO I NEED TO GO ON?

    Jodi..the scriptures are clear..CHrist Pre-existed

    #103121
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Jodi and DK,

    Excellent posts!! Oh, my goodness they both are great representations of two opposing sides.

    DK, I've heard some pretty good explainations of all the verses you've pointed out for preexistence, I'm sure you've heard them too. What do you think of the opposing view? Can you see that scripture lends itself to that view AS WELL? Or are you one who is set in their belief system and cannot see another side?

    Thanks,
    Mandy

    #103123
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 28 2008,06:52)
    Jodi and DK,

    Excellent posts!!  Oh, my goodness they both are great representations of two opposing sides.  

    DK, I've heard some pretty good explainations of all the verses you've pointed out for preexistence, I'm sure you've heard them too.  What do you think of the opposing view?  Can you see that scripture lends itself to that view AS WELL?  Or are you one who is set in their belief system and cannot see another side?

    Thanks,
    Mandy


    Hey Friend :) ,

    Honestly, if I just read Jodi's post I could see where she gets that idea…BUT…if you combine it with the scriptures I gave it does not hold up…honestly, in IMO, you have to read into the scriptures quite more than is needed to come to the view Jodi and you have..That scripture in 1 Peter is the one that everyone who does not believe Christ pre-existed uses…

    But to me, if you interpret that scripture in that way, that makes the bible contradict itself in at least, 15 other places

    #103124
    Jodi
    Participant

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 27 2008,13:08)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 28 2008,06:52)
    Jodi and DK,

    Excellent posts!! Oh, my goodness they both are great representations of two opposing sides.

    DK, I've heard some pretty good explainations of all the verses you've pointed out for preexistence, I'm sure you've heard them too. What do you think of the opposing view? Can you see that scripture lends itself to that view AS WELL? Or are you one who is set in their belief system and cannot see another side?

    Thanks,
    Mandy


    Hey Friend :) ,

    Honestly, if I just read Jodi's post I could see where she gets that idea…BUT…if you combine it with the scriptures I gave it does not hold up…honestly, in IMO, you have to read into the scriptures quite more than is needed to come to the view Jodi and you have..That scripture in 1 Peter is the one that everyone who does not believe Christ pre-existed uses…

    But to me, if you interpret that scripture in that way, that makes the bible contradict itself in at least, 15 other places


    Hi DK,

    I too can see where you are coming from, but I don't see it as the truth from the over all picture that the bible gives us.

    Christ is significant to us for who he is as a human being and what God did through him as a human being. Christ, at the right hand of God, is still a human being.

    What purpose was fulfilled by having Jesus preexist? I don't see that there is any.

    #103125
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi @ Aug. 28 2008,08:25)

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 27 2008,13:08)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 28 2008,06:52)
    Jodi and DK,

    Excellent posts!!  Oh, my goodness they both are great representations of two opposing sides.  

    DK, I've heard some pretty good explainations of all the verses you've pointed out for preexistence, I'm sure you've heard them too.  What do you think of the opposing view?  Can you see that scripture lends itself to that view AS WELL?  Or are you one who is set in their belief system and cannot see another side?

    Thanks,
    Mandy


    Hey Friend  :) ,

    Honestly, if I just read Jodi's post I could see where she gets that idea…BUT…if you combine it with the scriptures I gave it does not hold up…honestly, in IMO, you have to read into the scriptures quite more than is needed to come to the view Jodi and you have..That scripture in 1 Peter is the one that everyone who does not believe Christ pre-existed uses…

    But to me, if you interpret that scripture in that way, that makes the bible contradict itself in at least, 15 other places


    Hi DK,

    I too can see where you are coming from, but I don't see it as the truth from the over all picture that the bible gives us.

    Christ is significant to us for who he is as a human being and what God did through him as a human being. Christ, at the right hand of God, is still a human being.

    What purpose was fulfilled by having Jesus preexist? I don't see that there is any.


    Why does it have to fulfill a purpose?

    I just gave you a Genesis to Revelation account of Jesus existence. His purpose has evolved as I just showed thru scripture.

    #103128
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 27 2008,23:05)
    ” before Abraham was I am” says nothing clearly to me except that the past or present tense
    was not stated clearly enough for us to even understand what was meant.
    The Pharisees were ready to stone Jesus because he answered them in a riddle.

    Tim


    Have another look Tim.

    They were upset because he answered their question and the answer upset them. It seems that many others even today get upset at this answer for some reason.

    John 8:57-58
    57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

    58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

    #103131
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,02:39)
    Tiffany……..It does not say in what (WAY) he was before Abraham does it, you and T8 are (ASSUMING) Jesus meant He existed as an actual being, but thats not what it says, in fact Jesus was foreordained from the foundations of the world, but was (MANIFESTED) in our time Just as Peter said. God said Jesus would come from His brethren, He did not say He would come from a preexistent state of being did He. You and T8 both are (ASSUMING) thats the meaning of the text, because by forcing the text it can be made to fit you theologies, Jesus could have meant He was before Abraham, not actually existing in any form of a being but was in the plan and Will of God.  If you can prove His existence then what was His name and show us any of His activity prior to coming to earth then. Nothing can be produced without altering the spicific word of the texts, why is that, because scripture does not represent Jesus as a preexisting being , but as a son of God born and brought into existence from man kind, who through the POWER OF GOD overcame Sin. Giving us great hope of being able with the Help of GOD to also overcome even as He did the the effectual working of God the Father. Jesus is our example because He is (EXACTLY) the same as we are in (EVERY) way, not Just in part but (EXACTLY) the SAME. IMO

    peace to you all…………..gene


    I am therefore I exist.

    Are you Gene?

    You answer, I am.

    In this scenario it means that you exist as Gene. If you didn't exist, you couldn't say “I am” and technically speaking you wouldn't say “I am”.

    Your doctrine is getting in the way of what Jesus was saying here.

    But is it not better to let Jesus teach us. If he says something and it contradicts, then should we be his teacher? Would it not be better to be the pupil?

    Even YHWH says “I am that I am”. Look up what that means. Do you think YHWH didn't exist or is he saying that he exists.

    #103133
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DK…..the genesis account says (HE WILL) bruise the head of the serpent It does not say HE HAS and that HE would COME from the SEED of the WOMAN, Not some preexistence seed, as you would have us believe.He would be SON OF MAN Just as He said He was, Saying the Son of Man cane do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, Jesus considered Himself a son of man, and understood His limitations.

    He also considered himself a son of GOD, but he considered us also sons of GOD to ,and said (OUR) Father who art in Heaven, this includes us also then as sons of God. John said (NOW) we are SONS of GOD right, so was Jesus. You and all preexistences are separating Jesus from Our identity , but scripture does not do that, it shows a man made perfect by the power of GOD and raised up from the dead by that same power. Not some supernatural being Having all wisdom and knowledge before he ever came to earth as trinitarians and preexistences want people to believe.

    Like i said you have to force the texts you are quoting to extract that Jesus preexisted IMO.

    peace to you……….gene

    #103136
    Jodi
    Participant

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 27 2008,13:35)

    Quote (Jodi @ Aug. 28 2008,08:25)

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 27 2008,13:08)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 28 2008,06:52)
    Jodi and DK,

    Excellent posts!! Oh, my goodness they both are great representations of two opposing sides.

    DK, I've heard some pretty good explainations of all the verses you've pointed out for preexistence, I'm sure you've heard them too. What do you think of the opposing view? Can you see that scripture lends itself to that view AS WELL? Or are you one who is set in their belief system and cannot see another side?

    Thanks,
    Mandy


    Hey Friend :) ,

    Honestly, if I just read Jodi's post I could see where she gets that idea…BUT…if you combine it with the scriptures I gave it does not hold up…honestly, in IMO, you have to read into the scriptures quite more than is needed to come to the view Jodi and you have..That scripture in 1 Peter is the one that everyone who does not believe Christ pre-existed uses…

    But to me, if you interpret that scripture in that way, that makes the bible contradict itself in at least, 15 other places


    Hi DK,

    I too can see where you are coming from, but I don't see it as the truth from the over all picture that the bible gives us.

    Christ is significant to us for who he is as a human being and what God did through him as a human being. Christ, at the right hand of God, is still a human being.

    What purpose was fulfilled by having Jesus preexist? I don't see that there is any.


    Why does it have to fulfill a purpose?

    I just gave you a Genesis to Revelation account of Jesus existence. His purpose has evolved as I just showed thru scripture.


    You showed me your interpretation. I see another. We all have to go by what makes the best sense to us.

    This topic to me is not very crucial. You said yourself, that Christ's preexistence does not fulfill anything. Jesus Christ, the man however, fulfilled a great deal. He is my savior through God's work, he is my brother, and I use his example to guide me through life. When he returns I will follow his leadership with excitement, honor and respect.

    It would have to be said that whatever the preexistent son was, was left behind when he became a human. This is evident because of the fact that he was born an infant. My mind cannot wrap around what part of a preexistent son would then exist inside the womb of Mary and come out as a baby. Jesus was a human being given the fullness of God's Spirit. Jesus was not a human being given the fullness of his previous self. Jesus grew in the spirit of wisdom from God, he did not at one point in his life all the sudden be given part of his old self back.

    If the preexistent son did exist, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that he was replaced, and that he no longer plays a role in God's plan. Actually wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the preexistent son died when the egg of Mary became fertilized?

    #103138
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi all,
    I found this interesting this week.  In this passage Jesus is definitely not one of us.  He is the vine, not a branch like we can be.  We aren't the vine, Christ is.  Christ is not the vinedresser, His Father is.  Here we see the Father, the Son, and believers.  All seperate and not the same.  Jesus is not making himself equal to man.

    John 15:1-8
    1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot * bear fruit of itself unless * it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless * you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing *.

    A few verses later Jesus speaks of abiding in “ME” and  “MY” words abiding in you…

    7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever * you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 “My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.  

    Think on how to abide in Christ and what that means awhile. I liken it to one of my son's relationship with his girlfriend. When they are not together, they are texting each other. His thoughts are continually towards her. I told him that Christ wants that place in his life. Continually thinking on Him and filtering his thoughts through His mindset. Always anticipating His next “text message”. This kind of relationship with Christ will bear much fruit and the Father will be glorified which is Christ's motivation. Therefore, if we seek this kind of relationship with Christ, we will be shown how we can glorify His/our Father.

    LU

    #103140
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Good stuff LU.
    Thanks

    #103141
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8….I am not denying Jesus existed in the plan and will of God, but to try to makes it mean He was alive as a preexisting being is a presumption on your part, because if Jesus meant that He would simply said I was alive and existed before Abraham as you would have liked it say, but He did not say that did he, so you force the text to conclude that.

    Don't you think that if Jesus was a preexisting being that somewhere in scripture it would Just say that PLAINLY, after all that would have been a very important point . Then we could all say as you preexistences do, that indeed he had some very great special powers and was not truly like we are and we could just ignore the Power of God in Him because He had that already and was able to save himself, and really didn't need GOD the Father then did He.

    What point would it be to send a supernatural being and have him walk perfect and then try to compare Him to Us when in fact He was nothing like us at all really. You whole premises destroys true Faith in the ONE and ONLY GOD, it switched it to Jesus as the creator and sustainer and of all things and pushes GOD the Father completely out of the Picture , this Jesus never did, but trinitarians and preexistences do.

    I believe this is creating Jesus as the MAN OF SIN spoken of in 2thes. You are indeed portraying Him as very God and creator of all the universe which is Idolatry
    in origin and is contrary to the commandments of GOD. “YOU SHALL HAVE (NO) OTHER GOD BESIDES ME.” I believe even trinitarians like WJ is more accurate in understand that Jesus did not create the world then preexistences . You are simpling forcing the text to meat you ideologies, YOU HAVE NO SPECIFIC STATEMENT showing Jesus did indeed Preexist his berth as a being of some kind and to incest that Him saying before Abraham i am is vague at best, and if he did show his name and what did he do in the old testament writings. Certainly there would be some, giving us his true preexisting identity right. But the only thing i see is GOD said He (ALONE) created everything and GOD the Father takes (FULL) creating for all things, and even said He shared His Glory with (NO) MAN> You need to quite reading into text things that are not (SPECIFICALLY) stated. IMO

    peace and love……….gene

    #103143
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    LU…..i have farmed for years and still have a vineyard leased out to someone, one thing i know is that the vine and the branches are all made out of the (SAME) wood and that the vine does not give life to the branches but the Water the comes up from the ground and gives life to (BOTH) the vine and Its branches and the vine nor the branches could produce nothing of themselves. Jesus Said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF> The Spirit of God is this water and gives life to the vine which includes the branches and with out the spirit life no fruit could be produced neither by the vine or it's branches. God is that source that waters that vine and its branches and without Him (BOTH) would die.

    love and peace to you and yours…………..gene

    #103145
    TimothyVI
    Participant

    Quote (Tiffany @ Aug. 28 2008,00:18)

    Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 27 2008,23:05)
    ” before Abraham was I am” says nothing clearly to me except that the past or present tense
    was not stated clearly enough for us to even understand what was meant.
    The Pharisees were ready to stone Jesus because he answered them in a riddle.

    Tim


    Wait a minute, you mean to tell me if I say before Abraham,it does not say that? That is denying scripture, and not from God IMO. And I am, means what? I thought if I am, before someone, that I am. How else could you understand that.
    Sorry Timothy, I do not agree with you.
    Love Irene


    It does say before Abraham was, and then it does say I am..
    It does not say before Abraham I was. I am is in the present tense.
    I would suspect that not even the Hebrews talked like that.

    If I said “before the rain came, I am”, you would ask, “you are what?”
    That is an incomplete sentence that I still say leaves the interpretation open to conjecture.

    But I understand that you will see what you want to see.
    That is perfectly fine with me. I just do not see the same thing.

    Tim

    #103146
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi tim4,
    I AM has no present or past to timeless God, or to those of the beginning.

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