John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 9,621 through 9,640 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #309869
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2012,13:28)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 19 2012,18:11)
    most greek scholars agree that the john 1.1 should be translated was God and not a god.


    Yes jammin.


    tnx for that answer. you agree now that most scholars agree that the right translation for john 1.1 is was God and not a god.

    they know how to use the greek language mike. how about you??? do you have any formal studies in greek? you are just a kid mike LOL

    you can talk if you have enough knowledge about the language. those people who used a god in john 1.1 lack knowledge in greek language.

    #309877
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 20 2012,10:53)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 19 2012,15:09)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 19 2012,01:30)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 18 2012,17:26)
    [quote=jammin,Aug. 18 2012,01:07][quote=limjunus,Aug. 17 2012,21:21][quote=jammin,Aug. 17 2012,19:18]mike,

    John 1:18 Common English Bible (CEB)
    18 No one has ever seen God.
    God the only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made God known.

    “God, the only Son,” means the only Son of God, who is at the Father's side, has made God known.

    Jammin, do not do any alteration of the Bible passages.  Better make your own Bible “kiddie boy”.


    you are the one who altered the scripture boy.
    i think you do not know how to read LOL

    let me post again the CEB
    John 1:18

    Common English Bible (CEB)

    18 No one has ever seen God.
      God the only Son,
           who is at the Father’s side,
           has made God known.

    there is no comma after the word God boy> LOL

    make your own bible


    Jammin believe that Jesus Christ is not the only begotten Son of God,….. but instead he is now tightly holding the CEB version. “God the only son”

    Who is now the begotten Son of Jesus Christ, if he is not the begotten Son?

    Jammin, go and find another version of the Bible that could make your doctrines more worse than before. The truth of Jammin with contradicting versions. he he he Hello kiddie boy”!


    now you are caught in the act boy LOL

    it is very clear that you put a comma after the word God in john 1.18
    LOL

    make your own bible.

    LOL


    JAMMIN,

    No comma: “GOD THE ONLY SON”

    Jammin meaning: Jesus Christ is the One and only true God,.. So who is the begotten Son of Jesus Christ?

    I did not change the version of NLT. I am just given my commentaries and my understanding.

    I do not expecting you to answer my questions because you have no rightful knowledge about the truth of the One and only true God.

    You like only to stick with your belief even though it will crushed head-on with the truth of the Bible.

    You are pond of contradictions but there is no truth with you. God is not a God of confusions.

    #309879
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 20 2012,11:11)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2012,01:40)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 17 2012,19:59)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 18 2012,08:18)
    jammin,

    Many mss have “only begotten son” in 1:18, and many others have “only begotten god”.  It's hard to tell which one John really wrote, but he definitely called Jesus a god in 1:1, right?  So I have no problem with Jesus being a god, just as I have no problem with Satan being “the god of this age”.  The word in Biblical times only meant “mighty one”, and was used of Jehovah, Jesus, Satan, angels, and even human beings.

    And Jesus most definitely is a “mighty one”, right?

    But here's the thing:  If we accept “only begotten god” in 1:18, what then?  Do you suppose that God Almighty was begotten by anyone at any time?  Of course not.  So if the Most High God was never begotten, what does it mean that Jesus is the “only BEGOTTEN god”?

    If God's nature is “unbegotten”, and Jesus' nature is “begotten”, then you have a problem trying to get us to believe they are somehow “equal”, and even more of a problem trying to convince us that they are the same exact being.


    your NWT says a god in john 1.1
    but the greek text says was God. not a god boy.

    study greek


    The following information is from the 25 TRINITARIAN scholars of NETNotes:

    John 1:1c
    Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (qeos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell’s Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb.

    jammin, as limjunis has aptly pointed out, it seems your math skills are a little lacking, so let's take this slow.

    Can you read in the above information that there are THREE different possible translations of John 1:1c?  Here they are:

    1.  THE God
    2.  a god
    3.  god with a qualitative nuance

    This is not someone's opinion, jammin.  These are the simple FACTS of the matter when translating the Greek of John 1:1c into English.

    Before I move on, it would be nice to see you, Kerwin, Frank, and Ed ACKNOWLEDGE that these are simply FACTS of translation, and no bias has been added up to this point.  

    If any of you guys think these are NOT the simple FACTS of the matter, then simply refute the information made by these 25 scholars.  

    IF YOU DO NOT REFUTE THE INFO, THEN I WILL ASSUME IT IS BECAUSE YOU CANNOT REFUTE IT, AND THAT YOU ACCEPT IT AS THE FACTS OF THE MATTER.

    Also jammin, you didn't address my point in the quote box above.  I've made it big this time so you can't miss it.  Please address it.


    i think you do not know the meaning of begotten in john1.18

    it means unique one
    John 1:18

    John 1:18

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    18 No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.

    mike, do you have any formal studies in greek?

    i suggest you study greek mike.
    most greek scholars agree that the john 1.1 should be translated was God and not a god.
    only your NWT wants a god and not was God to support their illusion LOL


    Mike,

    Study deeper this Bible passages. Step by step. You will find that Jammin mis-interpretated it. John 1:18 NLT.

    “No one has ever seen God. [b]But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.”

    (a.)”No one has ever seen God.” (Because he is invisible 1 Tim 1:17 NLT.)

    (b.) “But the unique one, who is himself God, is near to Father's heart.” ( a God near the God's heart?…Crushing or a contradiction with the Oneness of the only true God)

    (c.) “He has revealed God to us.” (Jesus Christ is the one who revealed God to us; Jesus Christ is not the One and only true God)

    Jammin, wrongfully read it by saying that Jesus Christ is revealing himself to us.

    You better go back to the school Jammin, and study the rightful grammar.

    He he he :D

    #309880
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 20 2012,11:00)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2012,08:50)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 18 2012,20:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 18 2012,20:09)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 17 2012,20:13)
    i accept monogenes huios. i do not have a problem with that boy.
    but i think you have a problem boy
    ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:18

    18 θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε μονογενης θεος

    the greek also says monogenes theos.
    God the only son

    study hard boy LOL


    Jammin,

    John 1:18 is speaking of the Christ Spirit that dwells in the human Jesus; and not the human Jesus.

    It is the Christ Spirit that makes the human Jesus the Son of God.


    Christ became flesh. he was given a name jesus.


    Jammin,

    It is my understanding you believe the soul of the person Christ with the nature God took on human flesh and so became a human being.

    The actural words of Scripture are the Word was made flesh.

    John 1:18 states:

    John 1:18
    King James Version (KJV)

    18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    Elsewhere it is written:

    1 Corinthians 2:11

    King James Version (KJV)
    11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    Clearly the one spoken of in John 1:18 is the same one spoken of in 1 Corinthians 2:11 as only one has seen God and that is his Spirit; which I called the Christ Spirit.  Jesus, the human, inherited the Christ Spirit; and so became the human to whom and by whom he revealed his deep things.

    1 Corinthians 2:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


    the Word in john 1.1 is a title of Christ. it is his name kerwin.

    rev 19.13
    Revelation 19:13

    New International Version (NIV)

    13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    John 1:1

    Contemporary English Version (CEV)
    The Word of Life

    1 In the beginning was the one
       who is called the Word.
    The Word was with God
       and was truly God.

    read well your bible.


    [B]Kerwin,

    Another error of Jammin.

    1 In the beginning was the one who is called the Word.
    The Word was with God and was truly God.

    (a.) In the beginning was the one called the Word (The One and only true God has no beginning)

    (b.) The Word was with God and truly God. (Truly God with truly God, but Jammin still insisting he did not recognized two truly God)

    Here is another error of Jammin:

    “the Word in john 1.1 is a title of Christ. it is his name kerwin.”

    13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, [b]and his name is the Word of God.” (It did not say that Jesus Christ, is the One and only true God).

    Do not make the truth of God, a contradictory to it's own, Jammin.

    Do not also throw away the other versions of the Bible, especially the one producing the truth without contradiction.

    he he he :D

    #309882
    limjunus
    Participant

    Now Jammin, caught in the act.

    He said he did not believe that there is two truly God, but he is holding firmly with the verses produce by CEB version.

    1 In the beginning was the one who is called the Word.
    The Word was with God and was truly God.

    The Word was truly God with truly God”

    Very simple arithmetic Jammin, count it nicely. How many truly God do you have? he he he???

    #309883
    limjunus
    Participant

    THE QUESTIONS THAT JAMMIN DID NOT ANSWER AND MAY BE HE SHALL NEVER ANSWER IT FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE.

    1.) Who is the One and only true God, the begotten Son of God or the Father, who had begotten the Son?

    2.) Where in the Bible that we could read that the One and only true God composed of two or three persons?

    3.) Who is the one has been crucified and died in the cross, Jesus Christ, or the One and only true God

    Jammin, is caught in the act, his lips closed and can not make the rightful answers. he he he :D

    #309884
    jammin
    Participant

    limjunus,

    sorry but ur understanding is wrong about jn 1.18 LOL

    you should make your own bible boy before talking to me so that your illusion will be supported LOL

    God is nature according to paul phil 2.6
    they have one nature, and that is their nature God.

    do you have two nature boy?? lol

    go back to school LOL

    #309887
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=limjunus,Aug. 20 2012,16:04][/quote]

    Quote
    (c.) “He has revealed God to us.” (Jesus Christ is the one who revealed God to us; Jesus Christ is not the One and only true God)

    Limjunus,

    These are you words:

    (c.) “He has revealed God to us.”

    BY BEING A MAN LIKE US,THEREFORE THE TRUE VISISBLE GOD,THE INVISIBLE ONE NEVER ESTABLISHED HIMSELF,NO MATTER HOW MANY MIRACLES HE DID THROGUHOUT CREATION,TILL JESUS CAME.
    EVEN TODAY THE OT GOD STILL IS A CONFUSION, THE REASON THAT HE HAD TO COME AS HUMAN BEING IN HIS SON, IN A MODE TO SAY ONLY, FOR US TO UNDERSTAND THE RELATION BETWEEN GOD AND HIS OWN GENUINE SPIRIT SUBSTANCE BUT VISIBLE.

    (Jesus Christ is the one who revealed God to us;

    AGAIN THE ONLY WAY FOR THE FATHER TO REVEAL HIMSELF,WAS ONLY IN BEING LIKE HIS OWN CREATURES IN ORDER TO INTEGRATED AND MAKE IT FURTHER POSIBLE TO ACCEPT HIM

    Jesus Christ is not the One and only true God)

    SO YOU ARE WRONG FOR HUMANS THERE ARE NO VISIBLE CARNAL GODS EXCEPT JESUS SINCE THROUGH HIM THEY WERE BORN AGAIN IN THE SPIRIT AND WERE RECONCILED ONTO HIMSELF TO BE ONE WITH HIM AND IN THE SAME INSTANT WITH THE FATHER.

    SO ONLY THROUGH JESUS AS THE TRUE BROTHER.
    THEY HAVE THE TRUE  FATHER, THE  TRUE LORD,  AND THE TRUE GOD.

    PEACE AND LOVE IN THE ONLY TRUE VISIBLE GOD.

    CHARLES

    #309888
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 20 2012,16:23)
    [B]Kerwin,

    Another error of Jammin.

    1 In the beginning was the one who is called the Word.
    The Word was with God and was truly God.

    (a.) In the beginning was the one called the Word (The One and only true God has no beginning)

    (b.) The Word was with God and truly God. (Truly God with truly God, but Jammin still insisting he did not recognized two truly God)

    Here is another error of Jammin:

    “the Word in john 1.1 is a title of Christ. it is his name kerwin.”

    13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, [b]and his name is the Word of God.” (It did not say that Jesus Christ, is the One and only true God).

    Do not make the truth of God, a contradictory to it's own, Jammin.

    Do not also throw away the other versions of the Bible, especially the one producing the truth without contradiction.

    he he he  :D


    Hi limjunus,

    “The Word” is the HolySpirit. (Link)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #309889
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=limjunus,Aug. 20 2012,16:23][/quote]

    Quote
    (a.) In the beginning was the one called the Word (The One and only true God has no beginning)

    Limjunus,

    these are you words:

    (The One and only true God has no beginning)

    IN THE BEGEINNING

    OF CREATION, (not of a god)

    WAS THE WORD,

    A GENUINE SPIRIT OF GOD

    AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD,

    AS ONE SUBSTANCE,TO CREATE ALL,

    AND THE WORD WAS GOD

    HIMSELF WITHIN HIMSELF,

    HIS OWN GENUINE SPIRIT TO ACT AS A MEDIATOR,AND FURNISH HIMSELF THROUGH HIMSELF WITH A UNIQUE SUPERIOR POWER PURPOSELY IN ORDER TO BECOME

    ALMIGHTY GOD

    WHEN HE WAS IN HIS OWN GLORY, HE WAS NOT IN THE NEED TO BE IN THAT SUPERIOR STATE, ALTHOUGH HE WAS, BUT NOT ACTIVE .

    THE SON MADE THE FATHER MORE RICH,AND POWERFULL SINCE THE FATHER WAS HIDDEN, UNKNOWN.

    John 16:15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

    CHARLES

    #309891
    kerwin
    Participant

    Jammin,

    I am not going to argue over someone elses interpretation of John 1:1; and that is what the Contemporary English Version is.

    John 1:18 is the issue and it states no one has seen God but the only begotten Son; who reveals him.

    It is not like it is hard to understand that it is Spirit and not the human Jesus that knows the deep things of God and revealed those things first to the human Jesus; then through him to all that believe.

    Do you not understand the Spirit is in the bosom of God?

    The correct translation is “no one” just as it is in John 1:18.

    It is the Spirit that makes someone a son of God and Jesus is the man by whom others are made sons.

    As for Jesus being called by the name of the Word. When was he first called by that name according to Scripture?

    #309892
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 21 2012,00:18)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 20 2012,16:23)
    Kerwin,

    Another error of Jammin.

    1 In the beginning was the one who is called the Word.
    The Word was with God and was truly God.

    (a.) In the beginning was the one called the Word (The One and only true God has no beginning)

    (b.) The Word was with God and truly God. (Truly God with truly God, but Jammin still insisting he did not recognized two truly God)

    Here is another error of Jammin:

    “the Word in john 1.1 is a title of Christ. it is his name kerwin.”

    13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, [b]and his name is the Word of God.” (It did not say that Jesus Christ, is the One and only true God).

    Do not make the truth of God, a contradictory to it's own, Jammin.

    Do not also throw away the other versions of the Bible, especially the one producing the truth without contradiction.

    he he he  :D


    Hi limjunus,

    “The Word” is the HolySpirit.  [b](Link)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    No,eddy it is not ,

    #309900
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Mosses came before the days that God wrote his Law on the hearts of his people and placed it inward being even though he revealed the Word as he was carried along by the Spirit of Christ.

    Jesus is the first as the Spirit was put on him and he is the way others have the Word placed in them.

    #309901
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 20 2012,17:51)
    Jammin,

    I am not going to argue over someone elses interpretation of John 1:1; and that is what the Contemporary English Version is.  

    John 1:18 is the issue and it states no one has seen God but the only begotten Son; who reveals him.

    It is not like it is hard to understand that it is Spirit and not the human Jesus that knows the deep things of God and revealed those things first to the human Jesus; then through him to all that believe.

    Do you not understand the Spirit is in the bosom of God?

    The correct translation is “no one” just as it is in John 1:18.

    It is the Spirit that makes someone a son of God and Jesus is the man by whom others are made sons.

    As for Jesus being called by the name of the Word.  When was he first called by that name according to Scripture?


    you need to read your belief kerwin.

    if you cant read that in john 1.1 then you must ignore your belief. believe wht the bible says.

    also, ed…you must accept this truth bec the bible said that the Word is the name of Christ.

    rev 19.13

    believe it or not.

    #309902
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,

    That's not what the bible says.  ???

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #309908
    jammin
    Participant

    ed,

    really???
    John 1:1

    Contemporary English Version (CEV)
    The Word of Life

    1 In the beginning was the one
    who is called the Word.
    The Word was with God
    and was truly God.

    Revelation 19:13

    21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

    13 And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood, and His name is called, The Word of God.

    Geneva Study Bible

    In {1} the {a} beginning {b} was {c} the Word, and the Word was {d} with God, and the {e} Word was God.

    (1) The Son of God is of one and the selfsame eternity or everlastingness, and of one and the selfsame essence or nature with the Father.

    (a) From the beginning, as the evangelist says in 1Jo 1:1; it is as though he said that the Word did not begin to have his being when God began to make all that was made: for the Word was even then when all things that were made began to be made, and therefore he was before the beginning of all things.

    (b) Had his being.

    Â This word the points out to us a peculiar and choice thing above all others, and puts a difference between this Word, which is the Son of God, and the laws of God, which are also called the word of God.

    (d) This word with points out that there is a distinction of persons here.

    (e) This word Word is the first in order in the sentence, and is the subject of the sentence, and this word God is the latter in order, and is the predicate of the sentence.

    bible supports my view. commentaries also supports my view.

    ed do not be a hard headed.
    if you can read your illusion in john 1.1 then ill accept that.
    give me any translation that says that the Word in john 1.1 is the HOLY SPIRIT.
    can you give me one?yes or no?

    #309927
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2012,10:54)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 18 2012,15:09)
    ……..the word translated as 'god' does not always give reference to an actual being, person or mighty one, but can also simply refer to power, strength or might.


    So then you agree that the word “theos” in 1:1c does NOT refer to the person of God mentioned in 1:1b as “THE theos”?

    Good for you, Frank.

    Now you only need to know that the word in 1:1c was NOT written in the adjectival form, meaning it can NOT be saying something such as “and the Word was mighty”.  (For “mighty” is an adjective.)

    So it seems we are back to the THREE possibilities I've quoted from the NETNotes scholars.

    Are you honest enough to acknowledge those THREE possibilities, Frank?


    Mike,

    It would be deceptive to acknowledge such possibilities!  :D

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #309929
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 19 2012,23:04)
    (a.)”No one has ever seen God.” (Because he is invisible 1 Tim 1:17 NLT.)

    (b.) “But the unique one, who is himself God, is near to Father's heart.” ( a God near the God's heart?…Crushing or a contradiction with the Oneness of the only true God)

    (c.) “He has revealed God to us.” (Jesus Christ is the one who revealed God to us; Jesus Christ is not the One and only true God)


    I know, limjunis.  It's just silly if you ask me.  Here is the NIV translation:

    A.  No one has EVER seen God………. but John wrote this AFTER many people had seen Jesus.  ???

    B.  but God the One and Only………. Jesus is “God the ONE and ONLY”?   ???  

    C.  who is at the Father's side……………..  God the ONE and ONLY is “at the Father's side”?  Does that mean the Father is NOT “God the ONE and ONLY”?   ???

    D.  has made Him known…………Made WHO known? WHO exactly did Jesus make known? (John 17:26) And how can “God the ONE and ONLY” have a God of his own?  ???

    Anyway, good post limjunis.  I see jammin is again refusing to actually address the points I'm making, choosing instead to play games and make accusations.  How typical of him.

    #309930
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 19 2012,21:10)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2012,13:28)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 19 2012,18:11)
    most greek scholars agree that the john 1.1 should be translated was God and not a god.


    Yes jammin.


    tnx for that answer. you agree now that most scholars agree that the right translation for john 1.1 is was God and not a god.


    My question was simple, jammin. Do you acknowledge that there are THREE grammatical ways to translate John 1:1c? YES or NO?

    #309933
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 19 2012,21:05)
    18 θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε μονογενης θεος

    the greek says monogenes theos. God the only son


    jammin,

    In the ms you quoted, it says “only begotten god”. The word “son” (huios) isn't even in those Greek words you posted. ???

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