John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 9,601 through 9,620 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #309689
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 17 2012,19:59)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 18 2012,08:18)
    jammin,

    Many mss have “only begotten son” in 1:18, and many others have “only begotten god”.  It's hard to tell which one John really wrote, but he definitely called Jesus a god in 1:1, right?  So I have no problem with Jesus being a god, just as I have no problem with Satan being “the god of this age”.  The word in Biblical times only meant “mighty one”, and was used of Jehovah, Jesus, Satan, angels, and even human beings.

    And Jesus most definitely is a “mighty one”, right?

    But here's the thing:  If we accept “only begotten god” in 1:18, what then?  Do you suppose that God Almighty was begotten by anyone at any time?  Of course not.  So if the Most High God was never begotten, what does it mean that Jesus is the “only BEGOTTEN god”?

    If God's nature is “unbegotten”, and Jesus' nature is “begotten”, then you have a problem trying to get us to believe they are somehow “equal”, and even more of a problem trying to convince us that they are the same exact being.


    your NWT says a god in john 1.1
    but the greek text says was God. not a god boy.

    study greek


    The following information is from the 25 TRINITARIAN scholars of NETNotes:

    John 1:1c
    Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (qeos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell’s Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb.

    jammin, as limjunis has aptly pointed out, it seems your math skills are a little lacking, so let's take this slow.

    Can you read in the above information that there are THREE different possible translations of John 1:1c?  Here they are:

    1.  THE God
    2.  a god
    3.  god with a qualitative nuance

    This is not someone's opinion, jammin.  These are the simple FACTS of the matter when translating the Greek of John 1:1c into English.

    Before I move on, it would be nice to see you, Kerwin, Frank, and Ed ACKNOWLEDGE that these are simply FACTS of translation, and no bias has been added up to this point.  

    If any of you guys think these are NOT the simple FACTS of the matter, then simply refute the information made by these 25 scholars.  

    IF YOU DO NOT REFUTE THE INFO, THEN I WILL ASSUME IT IS BECAUSE YOU CANNOT REFUTE IT, AND THAT YOU ACCEPT IT AS THE FACTS OF THE MATTER.

    Also jammin, you didn't address my point in the quote box above.  I've made it big this time so you can't miss it.  Please address it.

    #309723
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 18 2012,15:25)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 18 2012,20:22)
    Well, that is news. I had not realized that Mike was a Jehovah's Witness! :D


    F

    how do you know ???? :D


    Pieear,

    I never said that I did know. :D

    #309725
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2012,01:40)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 17 2012,19:59)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 18 2012,08:18)
    jammin,

    Many mss have “only begotten son” in 1:18, and many others have “only begotten god”.  It's hard to tell which one John really wrote, but he definitely called Jesus a god in 1:1, right?  So I have no problem with Jesus being a god, just as I have no problem with Satan being “the god of this age”.  The word in Biblical times only meant “mighty one”, and was used of Jehovah, Jesus, Satan, angels, and even human beings.

    And Jesus most definitely is a “mighty one”, right?

    But here's the thing:  If we accept “only begotten god” in 1:18, what then?  Do you suppose that God Almighty was begotten by anyone at any time?  Of course not.  So if the Most High God was never begotten, what does it mean that Jesus is the “only BEGOTTEN god”?

    If God's nature is “unbegotten”, and Jesus' nature is “begotten”, then you have a problem trying to get us to believe they are somehow “equal”, and even more of a problem trying to convince us that they are the same exact being.


    your NWT says a god in john 1.1
    but the greek text says was God. not a god boy.

    study greek


    The following information is from the 25 TRINITARIAN scholars of NETNotes:

    John 1:1c
    Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (qeos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell’s Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb.

    jammin, as limjunis has aptly pointed out, it seems your math skills are a little lacking, so let's take this slow.

    Can you read in the above information that there are THREE different possible translations of John 1:1c?  Here they are:

    1.  THE God
    2.  a god
    3.  god with a qualitative nuance

    This is not someone's opinion, jammin.  These are the simple FACTS of the matter when translating the Greek of John 1:1c into English.

    Before I move on, it would be nice to see you, Kerwin, Frank, and Ed ACKNOWLEDGE that these are simply FACTS of translation, and no bias has been added up to this point.  

    If any of you guys think these are NOT the simple FACTS of the matter, then simply refute the information made by these 25 scholars.  

    IF YOU DO NOT REFUTE THE INFO, THEN I WILL ASSUME IT IS BECAUSE YOU CANNOT REFUTE IT, AND THAT YOU ACCEPT IT AS THE FACTS OF THE MATTER.

    Also jammin, you didn't address my point in the quote box above.  I've made it big this time so you can't miss it.  Please address it.


    Mike,

    None of the information that you have submitted has not the least bit of bearing on Yahshua as pre-existing with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning, since the word translated as 'god' does not always give reference to an actual being, person or mighty one, but can also simply refer to power, strength or might. Father Yahweh's word can most certainly be said to have the quality of power (authority), strength or might and can also be said to be with Him and coming from Him. Father Yahweh is the source of all power (authority), strength and might. Father Yahweh is the ONE and ONLY Mighty One.

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #309726
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 18 2012,20:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 18 2012,20:09)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 17 2012,20:13)
    i accept monogenes huios. i do not have a problem with that boy.
    but i think you have a problem boy
    ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:18

    18 θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε μονογενης θεος

    the greek also says monogenes theos.
    God the only son

    study hard boy LOL


    Jammin,

    John 1:18 is speaking of the Christ Spirit that dwells in the human Jesus; and not the human Jesus.

    It is the Christ Spirit that makes the human Jesus the Son of God.


    Christ became flesh. he was given a name jesus.


    Jammin,

    It is my understanding you believe the soul of the person Christ with the nature God took on human flesh and so became a human being.

    The actural words of Scripture are the Word was made flesh.

    John 1:18 states:

    John 1:18
    King James Version (KJV)

    18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    Elsewhere it is written:

    1 Corinthians 2:11

    King James Version (KJV)
    11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    Clearly the one spoken of in John 1:18 is the same one spoken of in 1 Corinthians 2:11 as only one has seen God and that is his Spirit; which I called the Christ Spirit. Jesus, the human, inherited the Christ Spirit; and so became the human to whom and by whom he revealed his deep things.

    1 Corinthians 2:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

    #309734
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 19 2012,08:09)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2012,01:40)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 17 2012,19:59)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 18 2012,08:18)
    jammin,

    Many mss have “only begotten son” in 1:18, and many others have “only begotten god”.  It's hard to tell which one John really wrote, but he definitely called Jesus a god in 1:1, right?  So I have no problem with Jesus being a god, just as I have no problem with Satan being “the god of this age”.  The word in Biblical times only meant “mighty one”, and was used of Jehovah, Jesus, Satan, angels, and even human beings.

    And Jesus most definitely is a “mighty one”, right?

    But here's the thing:  If we accept “only begotten god” in 1:18, what then?  Do you suppose that God Almighty was begotten by anyone at any time?  Of course not.  So if the Most High God was never begotten, what does it mean that Jesus is the “only BEGOTTEN god”?

    If God's nature is “unbegotten”, and Jesus' nature is “begotten”, then you have a problem trying to get us to believe they are somehow “equal”, and even more of a problem trying to convince us that they are the same exact being.


    your NWT says a god in john 1.1
    but the greek text says was God. not a god boy.

    study greek


    The following information is from the 25 TRINITARIAN scholars of NETNotes:

    John 1:1c
    Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (qeos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell’s Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb.

    jammin, as limjunis has aptly pointed out, it seems your math skills are a little lacking, so let's take this slow.

    Can you read in the above information that there are THREE different possible translations of John 1:1c?  Here they are:

    1.  THE God
    2.  a god
    3.  god with a qualitative nuance

    This is not someone's opinion, jammin.  These are the simple FACTS of the matter when translating the Greek of John 1:1c into English.

    Before I move on, it would be nice to see you, Kerwin, Frank, and Ed ACKNOWLEDGE that these are simply FACTS of translation, and no bias has been added up to this point.  

    If any of you guys think these are NOT the simple FACTS of the matter, then simply refute the information made by these 25 scholars.  

    IF YOU DO NOT REFUTE THE INFO, THEN I WILL ASSUME IT IS BECAUSE YOU CANNOT REFUTE IT, AND THAT YOU ACCEPT IT AS THE FACTS OF THE MATTER.

    Also jammin, you didn't address my point in the quote box above.  I've made it big this time so you can't miss it.  Please address it.


    Mike,

    None of the information that you have submitted has not the least bit of bearing on Yahshua as pre-existing with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning, since the word translated as 'god' does not always give reference to an actual being, person or mighty one, but can also simply refer to power, strength or might. Father Yahweh's word can most certainly be said to have the quality of power (authority), strength or might and can also be said to be with Him and coming from Him. Father Yahweh is the source of all power (authority), strength and might. Father Yahweh is the ONE and ONLY Mighty One.

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    “Since the word “theos” in the phrase “the Word was God [theos]” is not preceded by the article “ho” (the God), as are the other two uses of theos in verses 1 and 2, it can be understood as an adjective rather than a noun; “the word was mighty”. Theos is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word “elohim” which can mean “mighty” as in Gen 30:8 and 1 Sam 14:15.”
    Hebraic Usage of the Titles for “God”
    SOURCE

    #309739
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 18 2012,15:09)
    ……..the word translated as 'god' does not always give reference to an actual being, person or mighty one, but can also simply refer to power, strength or might.


    So then you agree that the word “theos” in 1:1c does NOT refer to the person of God mentioned in 1:1b as “THE theos”?

    Good for you, Frank.

    Now you only need to know that the word in 1:1c was NOT written in the adjectival form, meaning it can NOT be saying something such as “and the Word was mighty”.  (For “mighty” is an adjective.)

    So it seems we are back to the THREE possibilities I've quoted from the NETNotes scholars.

    Are you honest enough to acknowledge those THREE possibilities, Frank?

    #309741
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 18 2012,15:50)
    Clearly the one spoken of in John 1:18 is the same one spoken of in 1 Corinthians 2:11………..


    So when Moses made God known to the Israelites in the wilderness, he was also “the Spirit of God”?

    I don't think it's as “clear” as you claim, Kerwin. Don't forget that Jesus explained God to us, AND THEN sent “another helper”, the Spirit of God, to continue to explain God to us.

    If the OTHER helper is the Spirit of God, then the first one (Jesus) could not also be the Spirit of God.

    #309742
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 18 2012,17:19)
    “Since the word “theos” in the phrase “the Word was God [theos]” is not preceded by the article “ho” (the God), as are the other two uses of theos in verses 1 and 2, it can be understood as an adjective rather than a noun; “the word was mighty”. Theos is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word “elohim” which can mean “mighty” as in Gen 30:8 and 1 Sam 14:15.”


    Gen 30:8 and 1 Sam 14:15 are written in HEBREW, not Greek, Frank. Nor is “mighty” the proper translation in those two verses.

    Can you show a GREEK instance of “theos”, where it is is written in NOUN form but rendered as an ADJECTIVE?

    #309757
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 19 2012,01:26)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 18 2012,16:47)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 18 2012,00:59)
    limjunus,

    i did not say TWO truly God. two persons but one in nature, nature God.
    GOd is nature. God is form.
    according to phil 2.6 paul said that.

    do you have TWO form or nature? LOL
    you are sick boy LOL

    btw,

    it is non sense to talk to you bec you have no common sense boy LOL
    you are using NLT to prove Christ is not GOd but that version says he is God LOL

    study hard boy


    Jammin,

    You did not said “two truly God”?

    You have said you have only one truly God, the Father.

    You have said also that the Son is truly God.

    How can count it, One?

    Where is in the Bible that the One and only true God has two person but one in nature?

    I am pretty sure, you will not answer, because it is your practice not to answer.


    you and your father…how many???
    of course you are 2 in numbers but you have ONE nature, and that is your human nature.
    do you agree???

    btw
    you are still not answering my question boy
    do you have two form or nature? yes or no?


    Jammin do not know what he is trying to talk about?

    Are we talking the nature of God or the nature of man?

    If you are talking the nature of God,..define the nature of God?

    What is your understanding with this words: “ONLY ONE TRUE GOD” and WHO IS HE?

    #309759
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 19 2012,01:26)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 18 2012,16:47)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 18 2012,00:59)
    limjunus,

    i did not say TWO truly God. two persons but one in nature, nature God.
    GOd is nature. God is form.
    according to phil 2.6 paul said that.

    do you have TWO form or nature? LOL
    you are sick boy LOL

    btw,

    it is non sense to talk to you bec you have no common sense boy LOL
    you are using NLT to prove Christ is not GOd but that version says he is God LOL

    study hard boy


    Jammin,

    You did not said “two truly God”?

    You have said you have only one truly God, the Father.

    You have said also that the Son is truly God.

    How can count it, One?

    Where is in the Bible that the One and only true God has two person but one in nature?

    I am pretty sure, you will not answer, because it is your practice not to answer.


    you and your father…how many???
    of course you are 2 in numbers but you have ONE nature, and that is your human nature.
    do you agree???

    btw
    you are still not answering my question boy
    do you have two form or nature? yes or no?


    Jammin said:

    you and your father…how many???
    of course you are 2 in numbers but you have ONE nature, and that is your human nature.
    do you agree???

    Jammin is mixing the nature of God and the nature of human. He try to avoid comparing it completely to cover his lie.

    God nature= two numbers Father and the son.

    Now, which one is the One and only true God nature, the Father or the son?

    As what Jesus Christ said: ” …that they may know “you”[Father] the only true God.

    In human nature= Father and son. Which is not true human nature, the Father or the Son?

    Jammin, possible answer: Both of them is true human nature.

    Now, you are contradicting your own doctrine by admitting that you are saying two truly God.

    #309761
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 19 2012,01:24)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 18 2012,16:47)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 18 2012,00:59)
    limjunus,

    i did not say TWO truly God. two persons but one in nature, nature God.
    GOd is nature. God is form.
    according to phil 2.6 paul said that.

    do you have TWO form or nature? LOL
    you are sick boy LOL

    btw,

    it is non sense to talk to you bec you have no common sense boy LOL
    you are using NLT to prove Christ is not GOd but that version says he is God LOL

    study hard boy


    Jammin,

    You did not said “two truly God”?

    You have said you have only one truly God, the Father.

    You have said also that the Son is truly God.

    How can count it, One?

    Where is in the Bible that the One and only true God has two person but one in nature?

    I am pretty sure, you will not answer, because it is your practice not to answer.


    the bible said that Christ and the father have the same nature and that is their nature God.
    btw
    you did not answer my question boy

    do you have TWO form or nature??? yes or no?


    Jammin,

    The Bible did not said that Jesus Christ and His Father are in One nature God. The Bible said that there is only one true God, the Father alone.

    Just to ride-on with your own reasoning about the human nature.

    You are a human and of course your father is also a human. the question is, which is not true human nature, you or your father?

    As what you had explain, human nature is only one, if your father is the one and only human nature, meaning you are not in human nature. are you a ghost Jammin?

    #309762
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 19 2012,01:24)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 18 2012,16:47)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 18 2012,00:59)
    limjunus,

    i did not say TWO truly God. two persons but one in nature, nature God.
    GOd is nature. God is form.
    according to phil 2.6 paul said that.

    do you have TWO form or nature? LOL
    you are sick boy LOL

    btw,

    it is non sense to talk to you bec you have no common sense boy LOL
    you are using NLT to prove Christ is not GOd but that version says he is God LOL

    study hard boy


    Jammin,

    You did not said “two truly God”?

    You have said you have only one truly God, the Father.

    You have said also that the Son is truly God.

    How can count it, One?

    Where is in the Bible that the One and only true God has two person but one in nature?

    I am pretty sure, you will not answer, because it is your practice not to answer.


    the bible said that Christ and the father have the same nature and that is their nature God.
    btw
    you did not answer my question boy

    do you have TWO form or nature??? yes or no?


    ust to ride-on with your own reasoning about the human nature.

    You are a human and of course your father is also a human. the question is, which is not true human nature, you or your father?

    As what you had explain, human nature is only one, if your father is the one and only human nature, meaning you are not in human nature. are you a ghost Jammin?

    How many human nature you and your father Jammin? One or two?

    #309764
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 19 2012,01:30)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 18 2012,17:26)
    [quote=jammin,Aug. 18 2012,01:07][quote=limjunus,Aug. 17 2012,21:21][quote=jammin,Aug. 17 2012,19:18]mike,

    John 1:18 Common English Bible (CEB)
    18 No one has ever seen God.
    God the only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made God known.

    “God, the only Son,” means the only Son of God, who is at the Father's side, has made God known.

    Jammin, do not do any alteration of the Bible passages.  Better make your own Bible “kiddie boy”.


    you are the one who altered the scripture boy.
    i think you do not know how to read LOL

    let me post again the CEB
    John 1:18

    Common English Bible (CEB)

    18 No one has ever seen God.
      God the only Son,
           who is at the Father’s side,
           has made God known.

    there is no comma after the word God boy> LOL

    make your own bible


    Jammin believe that Jesus Christ is not the only begotten Son of God,….. but instead he is now tightly holding the CEB version. “God the only son”

    Who is now the begotten Son of Jesus Christ, if he is not the begotten Son?

    Jammin, go and find another version of the Bible that could make your doctrines more worse than before. The truth of Jammin with contradicting versions. he he he Hello kiddie boy”!

    #309837
    jammin
    Participant

    limjunus,

    the bible said God the only son. the bible said begotten God.
    the bible said only begotten son of God.
    i have no problem with that boy bec the bible said that.

    but you have a problem boy. LOL
    why??? bec you do not accept the whole truth of the bible.
    LOL

    paul said that God is nature (phil2.6)
    btw,you are still not answering my question.
    do you have TWO form or nature? yes or no?

    #309838
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 19 2012,15:09)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 19 2012,01:30)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 18 2012,17:26)
    [quote=jammin,Aug. 18 2012,01:07][quote=limjunus,Aug. 17 2012,21:21][quote=jammin,Aug. 17 2012,19:18]mike,

    John 1:18 Common English Bible (CEB)
    18 No one has ever seen God.
    God the only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made God known.

    “God, the only Son,” means the only Son of God, who is at the Father's side, has made God known.

    Jammin, do not do any alteration of the Bible passages.  Better make your own Bible “kiddie boy”.


    you are the one who altered the scripture boy.
    i think you do not know how to read LOL

    let me post again the CEB
    John 1:18

    Common English Bible (CEB)

    18 No one has ever seen God.
      God the only Son,
           who is at the Father’s side,
           has made God known.

    there is no comma after the word God boy> LOL

    make your own bible


    Jammin believe that Jesus Christ is not the only begotten Son of God,….. but instead he is now tightly holding the CEB version. “God the only son”

    Who is now the begotten Son of Jesus Christ, if he is not the begotten Son?

    Jammin, go and find another version of the Bible that could make your doctrines more worse than before. The truth of Jammin with contradicting versions. he he he Hello kiddie boy”!


    now you are caught in the act boy LOL

    it is very clear that you put a comma after the word God in john 1.18
    LOL

    make your own bible.

    LOL

    #309839
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2012,08:50)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 18 2012,20:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 18 2012,20:09)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 17 2012,20:13)
    i accept monogenes huios. i do not have a problem with that boy.
    but i think you have a problem boy
    ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:18

    18 θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε μονογενης θεος

    the greek also says monogenes theos.
    God the only son

    study hard boy LOL


    Jammin,

    John 1:18 is speaking of the Christ Spirit that dwells in the human Jesus; and not the human Jesus.

    It is the Christ Spirit that makes the human Jesus the Son of God.


    Christ became flesh. he was given a name jesus.


    Jammin,

    It is my understanding you believe the soul of the person Christ with the nature God took on human flesh and so became a human being.

    The actural words of Scripture are the Word was made flesh.

    John 1:18 states:

    John 1:18
    King James Version (KJV)

    18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    Elsewhere it is written:

    1 Corinthians 2:11

    King James Version (KJV)
    11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    Clearly the one spoken of in John 1:18 is the same one spoken of in 1 Corinthians 2:11 as only one has seen God and that is his Spirit; which I called the Christ Spirit.  Jesus, the human, inherited the Christ Spirit; and so became the human to whom and by whom he revealed his deep things.

    1 Corinthians 2:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


    the Word in john 1.1 is a title of Christ. it is his name kerwin.

    rev 19.13
    Revelation 19:13

    New International Version (NIV)

    13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    John 1:1

    Contemporary English Version (CEV)
    The Word of Life

    1 In the beginning was the one
    who is called the Word.
    The Word was with God
    and was truly God.

    read well your bible.

    #309840
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2012,01:40)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 17 2012,19:59)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 18 2012,08:18)
    jammin,

    Many mss have “only begotten son” in 1:18, and many others have “only begotten god”.  It's hard to tell which one John really wrote, but he definitely called Jesus a god in 1:1, right?  So I have no problem with Jesus being a god, just as I have no problem with Satan being “the god of this age”.  The word in Biblical times only meant “mighty one”, and was used of Jehovah, Jesus, Satan, angels, and even human beings.

    And Jesus most definitely is a “mighty one”, right?

    But here's the thing:  If we accept “only begotten god” in 1:18, what then?  Do you suppose that God Almighty was begotten by anyone at any time?  Of course not.  So if the Most High God was never begotten, what does it mean that Jesus is the “only BEGOTTEN god”?

    If God's nature is “unbegotten”, and Jesus' nature is “begotten”, then you have a problem trying to get us to believe they are somehow “equal”, and even more of a problem trying to convince us that they are the same exact being.


    your NWT says a god in john 1.1
    but the greek text says was God. not a god boy.

    study greek


    The following information is from the 25 TRINITARIAN scholars of NETNotes:

    John 1:1c
    Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (qeos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell’s Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb.

    jammin, as limjunis has aptly pointed out, it seems your math skills are a little lacking, so let's take this slow.

    Can you read in the above information that there are THREE different possible translations of John 1:1c?  Here they are:

    1.  THE God
    2.  a god
    3.  god with a qualitative nuance

    This is not someone's opinion, jammin.  These are the simple FACTS of the matter when translating the Greek of John 1:1c into English.

    Before I move on, it would be nice to see you, Kerwin, Frank, and Ed ACKNOWLEDGE that these are simply FACTS of translation, and no bias has been added up to this point.  

    If any of you guys think these are NOT the simple FACTS of the matter, then simply refute the information made by these 25 scholars.  

    IF YOU DO NOT REFUTE THE INFO, THEN I WILL ASSUME IT IS BECAUSE YOU CANNOT REFUTE IT, AND THAT YOU ACCEPT IT AS THE FACTS OF THE MATTER.

    Also jammin, you didn't address my point in the quote box above.  I've made it big this time so you can't miss it.  Please address it.


    i think you do not know the meaning of begotten in john1.18

    it means unique one
    John 1:18

    John 1:18

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    18 No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.

    mike, do you have any formal studies in greek?

    i suggest you study greek mike.
    most greek scholars agree that the john 1.1 should be translated was God and not a god.
    only your NWT wants a god and not was God to support their illusion LOL

    #309862
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 19 2012,17:51)
    limjunus,

    1. the bible said God the only son.

    2. the bible said begotten God.

    3. the bible said only begotten son of God.

    4. paul said that God is nature (phil2.6)


    1. No, the Greek text never says that.

    2. SOME Greek mss say “only begotten god” in John 1:18 – others say “only begotten son”.

    3. YES.

    4. That is not even close to what Paul said in Phil 2:6.

    #309863
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 19 2012,18:11)
    most greek scholars agree that the john 1.1 should be translated was God and not a god.


    Yes jammin.  And MOST scholars are Trinitarians who want desperately for Jesus to actually BE the very God he is the Son of – in spite of how nonsensical that concept is.

    My question was simple, jammin.  Do you acknowledge that there are THREE grammatical ways to translate John 1:1c?

    (Once you acknowledge what is known to be a FACT, then we can discuss which of those three makes the most sense.)

    Also, you STILL haven't addressed my points that I made big in the quote box.  Why not?

    #309868
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2012,13:24)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 19 2012,17:51)
    limjunus,

    1.  the bible said God the only son.

    2.  the bible said begotten God.

    3.  the bible said only begotten son of God.

    4.  paul said that God is nature (phil2.6)


    1.  No, the Greek text never says that.

    2.  SOME Greek mss say “only begotten god” in John 1:18 – others say “only begotten son”.

    3.  YES.

    4.  That is not even close to what Paul said in Phil 2:6.


    what ??? are you sure mike??

    let me post the greek bible
    ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:18

    18 θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε μονογενης θεος

    the greek says monogenes theos. God the only son

    study hard boy LOL

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