John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 9,301 through 9,320 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #308500
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 06 2012,23:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 07 2012,10:15)
    My conclusion is that Thomas WAS declaring Jesus to be his lord and his god.

    Mike,

    From the Human point of view,SINCE ONLY THROUGH JESUS WE HAVE A GOD, A FATHER , A SAVIOUR, A COMFORTER, AN ETERNAL LIFE, A BODY, A SOUL, A WAY,………AND ON THE LAST DAY WE ALSO BECOME GODS LIKE HE IS NOW.

    Peace and love in Jesus the only true visible God.

    Charles


    Hi Charles,

    I don't agree with any of that. The Israelites had a God long before Jesus came to earth. And I find no scripture that says we too will become Gods.

    But please remember to DELETE the bottom post box before submitting the post. :)

    #308501
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 07 2012,04:47)
    Mike,

    Jammin is diverting the issue to human nature and not to the nature (attributes) of God.


    Tell me about it – I have been dealing with jammin on this thread since page ONE! :D

    I have addressed his “nature” questions numerous times already.

    jammin, YES, I have the same nature as my father, which means I am one of MANY human beings. Now what?

    #308509
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2012,08:14)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 06 2012,22:25)

    Quote (journey42 @ Aug. 07 2012,15:09)
    .
    What version do you suggest I read?


    of course his one and only NEW WORLD TRANSLATION
    :D

    LOL


    Yes jammin,

    The NWT is a very good translation.  I actually prefer the NIV wording, and like it the best out of the four translations I've read cover to cover.

    journey, I suggest using a site like NETBible, or  Biblos.com for “comparison shopping”.  :)

    On those sites, you can view many parallel translations, plus check out the actual Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew words to see which translation comes the closest to the original.

    There are also many commentaries you can read to find out even more concerning any particular scripture.

    90% of the time, I quote the NIV when I quote scripture here.  But that is not to say that they don't also have their own oddball renderings.  Just check out John 1:18 in the NIV to see what I mean.  Talk about bizarre and confusing.  :D


    LOL

    for you mike.. for you . bec the NWT supports your god doctrine.

    LOL

    #308510
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 07 2012,22:20)
    limjunus said:
    the answer is our father in the flesh is “truly human”

    ———
    thanks.
    now, are you truly HUMAN just like your father? yes or no?

    #308511
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2012,08:49)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 07 2012,04:47)
    Mike,

    Jammin is diverting the issue to human nature and not to the nature (attributes) of God.


    Tell me about it – I have been dealing with jammin on this thread since page ONE!  :D

    I have addressed his “nature” questions numerous times already.

    jammin, YES, I have the same nature as my father, which means I am one of MANY human beings.  Now what?


    is your father truly HUMAN> if yes,

    are you TRULY HUMAN just like your father?> yes or no?

    #308524
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 08 2012,07:18)

    Quote
    given your own conclusion. Jesus ascending to my Father,.. is mean to you that from human being into a Supreme being?

    Limjunus,

    TO BE EXACT:

    FROM  A WORM INTO GOD

    With every respect, through your babyish  questions, you confirmed that you need MILK NOT MEAT.!!!

    Before we start can you define how one can assert himself that something is in the truth??

    Quote
    If Jesus Christ is truly God, why need to be changed from truly God into truly God?

    Are you not aware what glorification means???

    Are you not aware that Jesus solidified what he had as a mere man??

    Are you not aware that Jesus was a mere human, a worm, in order to be in all things like His brethren, and through His death and resurrection He unified His soul and His flesh into one eternal spiritual flesh body???

    Are you not aware that through the above description, so not to repeat, Jesus , became both visible and invisible in one being???

    Quote
    another confusion is, “if the begotten Son is truly God, why changing from Son God into a Father God?

    Are you not aware that Jesus, in view of the above, He is a visible TRULY God as man Jesus for our sake in order to own us, since we were owned by Satan, His contender for manhood. ALSO an invisible God, and a Father to us, in His Father  since He became ONE WITH HIS FATHER, in order to be an overall God, as soon as the Spirit of the Father entered Jesus’ Soul??

    Are you not aware that the FATHER is also glorified and became even more Almighty considering the fact that scripture says:

    John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine………….

    Are you not aware that the above scripture says that Jesus a mere man, a worm, had to furnish the FATHER with all His (Jesus) THINGS, in order to make His Father TRUE, since up to then He was unknown even to His angels, NOT WITHSTANDING THE FACT THAT MOST OF YOU ON HEAVEN NET DECLARE THAT HE IS NOT THE TRUE GOD.

    Are you not aware that Jesus, before creation He was in ONE glory with the Father as spirits, and after resurrection He became ONE in the same glory but in the flesh as well??

    TO BE DECLARED THE TRULY GOD??

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

    Are you not aware that Jesus, after His glorification, since now you know what it means, He became OFFICIALLY the sole proprietor of the entire creation, something which God Almighty never was and not yet is, and He has to wait for millions and millions of years to achieve and become ALL IN ALL ON THE LAST DAY, AND  ALSO, SINCE HE IS ONLY SPIRIT,THROUGH JESUS,IN JESUS ,AND FOR JESUS BODY??

    Did Jesus need from truly God(Human) to be changed to truly God both carnal and spiritual???  

    Are you not aware, that the human race are not capable to save themselves, in fact they are dead, unless they give themselves entirely to Jesus, never mind Almighty God, not withstanding the fact that MOST OF YOU ON HEAVEN NET DECLARE THAT HE IS NOT THE TRUE GOD.

    Are you not aware, that the cause of our creation, was only and purposely beneficial to the human race, and not to either God Almighty, and to Jesus.  

    Quote
    Another confusion you have made is, “If Jesus Christ is truly God, who is the flesh and died?

    SATAN'S

    This is a babyish question?? YOU NEED MILK,NOT MEAT!!

    THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING, THE SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE!!

    John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh, is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit.

    John6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing………….

    Romans 8:1 THERE is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH

    3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh; God sending his own Son, IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH AND OF SIN (SATAN'S) HATH CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH

    4 That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us, who WALK NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT.

    5 For they that are ACCORDING TO THE FLESH mind the things that are ACCORDING TO THE FLESH,BUT THEY THAT ARE ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT MIND THE THINGS THAT ARE OF THE SPIRIT.

    6 For the WISDOM OF THE FLESH IS DEATH; but the WISDOM OF THE SPIRIT IS LIFE AND PEACE .

    7 Because the WISDOM OF THE FLESH IS AN ENEMY OF GOD (SATAN'S); for it is not subject to the law of God, neither can it be. 8 And they who are IN THE FLESH, CANNOT PLEASE GOD.

    Peace and love in Jesus.

    Charles


    A very long explanation but it did not give us understanding who is the true and the only one God.

    This truth is the most important that your words.

    Romans 15:6
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Peace be with you. :;):

    #308529
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 08 2012,14:00)
    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 07 2012,22:20)
    limjunus said:
    the answer is our father in the flesh is “truly human”

    ———
    thanks.
    now, are you truly HUMAN just like your father? yes or no?


    Jammin, yohoooooo! where is your answer to my questions?

    1.) HOW MANY TRUE GOD DO YOU RECOGNIZE?

    2.) WHO IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, IS JESUS CHRIST, THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD OR HIS FATHER WHO HAD BEGOTTEN HIM?

    3.) WHO IS THE ALONE, INVISIBLE AND IMMORTAL GOD?

    I will re-post it again and again like what you done until I got your answers.

    Oh' Jammin,…you still around? why you could not able to anwer my questions? ??? :ghostface:

    #308530
    limjunus
    Participant

    [B]Jammin, yohoooooo! where is your answer to my questions?

    1.) HOW MANY TRUE GOD DO YOU RECOGNIZE?

    2.) WHO IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, IS JESUS CHRIST, THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD OR HIS FATHER WHO HAD BEGOTTEN HIM?

    3.) WHO IS THE ALONE, INVISIBLE AND IMMORTAL GOD?

    I will re-post it again and again like what you had done until I got your answers.

    No answer Jammin? :O

    #308533
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2012,08:24)

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 06 2012,23:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 07 2012,10:15)
    My conclusion is that Thomas WAS declaring Jesus to be his lord and his god.

    Mike,

    From the Human point of view,SINCE ONLY THROUGH JESUS WE HAVE A GOD, A FATHER , A SAVIOUR, A COMFORTER, AN ETERNAL LIFE, A BODY, A SOUL, A WAY,………AND ON THE LAST DAY WE ALSO BECOME GODS LIKE HE IS NOW.

    Peace and love in Jesus the only true visible God.

    Charles


    Hi Charles,

    I don't agree with any of that.  The Israelites had a God long before Jesus came to earth.  And I find no scripture that says we too will become Gods.

    But please remember to DELETE the bottom post box before submitting the post.  :)


    Mike,

    We will become God's family but not we will become Gods! :D

    #308535
    limjunus
    Participant

    Here is the truth without explanation from anyone of us.

    Romans 15:6 New King James Version (NKJV)
    6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Who has a gut to change that truth? go and counter it with your human wisdom! :O

    #308541
    limjunus
    Participant

    Here is another truth without without any elaboration from us.

    Malachi 2:10 New International Version – UK (NIVUK)

    10 Do we not all have one Father?[a] Did not one God [Father] create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

    Malakias 2:10 MB
    10Hindi ba iisa ang ating Ama at ito'y ang iisang Diyos na lumalang sa atin? Kung gayo'y bakit sumisira tayo sa pangako sa isa't isa at bakit winawalang-kabuluhan natin ang kasunduan ng Diyos at ng ating mga magulang?

    UK Footnotes:
    Malachi 2:10 Or father

    Who has a gut to alter that truth? … go and change the truth with your human wisdom. :O

    #308542
    limjunus
    Participant

    [B]Here is another truth without any elaboration from us.

    Malachi 2:10 New International Version – UK (NIVUK)

    10 Do we not all have one Father?[a] Did not one God [Father] create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

    Malakias 2:10 MB
    10. Hindi ba iisa ang ating Ama at ito'y ang iisang Diyos na lumalang sa atin? Kung gayo'y bakit sumisira tayo sa pangako sa isa't isa at bakit winawalang-kabuluhan natin ang kasunduan ng Diyos at ng ating mga magulang?

    Romans 15:6 New King James Version (NKJV)
    6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    UK Footnotes:
    Malachi 2:10 Or father[B]

    Who has a gut to alter that truth? … go and change the truth with your human wisdom.:( :O

    #308554
    Devolution
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2012,08:01)

    Quote (journey42 @ Aug. 06 2012,22:13)
    Mike

    If the word God wasn't used, then what word was?


    Hi journey,

    I'm sorry I came on so strong.  I was just shocked to see that you would be willing to pick tradition over truth in this matter.

    The original word was “who”, or “which”.  But you can read my post to Ed right above this post if you want to know more.

    (I suggest you read the link at the bottom of the page in my post to Ed.  It is short and to the point, and should only take 10 minutes out of your life.  :)  )


    © 2001 by David W. Daniels

    Question: Which is correct in 1 Timothy 3:16, “God was manifest in the flesh” (KJV) or “He appeared in a body” (NIV)?

    Answer: Without a doubt, the Scripture says, “God was manifest in the flesh.” The vast testimony of history shows us clearly that the word in question is “God,” not “he” or “who.” But the Alexandrian lie ended up even in the Roman Catholic Vulgate and all modern perversions. Here's how easy it was.

    In Greek, the word for God was abbreviated, like this:
    ΘC

    But the word “who” (which the NIV called “he”) was written like this:
    OC  

    The difference between “God” and “who” in Greek was a little line. The amazing thing is, by the Alexandrians removing a line from one letter, they took away the deity of Christ!

    The overwhelming testimony of history is that God preserved His words. In thousands of manuscripts, God preserved these words, “God was manifest in the flesh.” Though the Roman Catholic religion preserved the perversion of the Alexandrians, and every Alexandrian translation tries to hide it, it is still true: God was manifest in the flesh.

    Θ (the Greek letter theta) is the first letter in Θεοῦ (the-o’s; the Greek word for God’s).
    ————————————————————————————–
    The New World Translation was produced by the New World Bible Translation Committee, formed in 1947. This committee is said to have comprised unnamed members of multinational background. The New World Bible Translation Committee requested that the Watch Tower Society not publish the names of its members, stating that they did not want to “advertise themselves but let all the glory go to the Author of the Scriptures, God,” adding that the translation, “should direct the reader… to… Jehovah God”. The publishers believe that “the particulars of [the New World Bible Translation Committee's members] university or other educational training are not the important thing” and that “the translation testifies to their qualification”.

    Former high ranking Watch Tower staff, including former Governing Body member Ray Franz, have claimed knowledge of the translators' identities and education. This a list that they have revealed:

    Franz, Frederick
    Probably the only person to actually translate. Franz was a liberal arts student at the University of Cincinnati:
    21 semester hours of classical Greek, some Latin.
    Partially completed a two-hour survey course in Biblical Greek in junior year.
    Self-taught in Spanish, biblical Hebrew and Aramaic

    Gangas, George
    No training in biblical languages. Gangas was a Turkish national who knew Modern Greek. Translated Watchtower publications into Modern Greek.

    Henschel, Milton
    No training in biblical languages.

    Klein, Karl
    No training in biblical languages.

    Knorr, Nathan
    No training in biblical languages

    Schroeder, Albert
    No training in biblical languages. Schroeder majored in mechanical engineering for three years before dropping out.
    ————————————————————————————-
    Dr. Julius R. Mantey was a first rate scholar who studied Greek for more than 65 years. He was well known for “A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, which he co-authored with Dr. H.E. Dana. The following is a discussion that took place between Dr. Martin and Dr. Mantey on the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation.

    Christian Research Institute founder, Dr. Martin. begins by saying:

    DR. MARTIN: In John 1:1, the New World Translation (NWT) says that “the Word was a God,” referring to Jesus Christ. How would you respond to that?

    DR. MANTEY: The Jehovah's Witnesses (JWs) have forgotten entirely what the order of the sentence indicates – that the “Logos” has the same substance, nature, or essence as the Father. To indicate that Jesus was just “a god,” the JWs would have to use a completely different construction in the Greek.

    DR. MARTIN: You once had a little difference of opinion with the Watchtower about this and wrote them a letter. What was their response to your letter?

    DR. MANTEY: Well, as a backdrop, I was disturbed because they had misquoted me in support of their translation. I called their attention to the fact that the whole body of the New Testament was against their view. Throughout the New Testament, Jesus is glorified and magnified – yet here they were denigrating Him and making Him into a little god of a pagan concept.

    DR. MARTIN: What was their response to what you said?

    DR. MANTEY: They said I could have my opinion and they would retain theirs. What I wrote didn't phase them a bit.

    DR. MARTIN: I don't know whether you're aware of it, but there is not a single Greek scholar in the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. I did everything I could to find out the names of the translating committee of the NWT, and the Watchtower wouldn't tell me a thing. Finally, an ex-JW who knew the committee members personally told me who they were, and the men on that committee could not read New Testament Greek; nor could they read Hebrew; nor did they have any knowledge of systematic theology – except what they had learned from the Watchtower. Only one of them had been to college, and he had dropped out after a year. He briefly studied the biblical languages while there.

    DR. MANTEY: He was born in Greece, wasn't he?

    DR. MARTIN: Yes, he read modern Greek, and I met him when I visited the Watchtower. I asked him to read John 1:1 in the Greek and then said, “How would you translate it?” He said: “Well, 'the word was a god.”' I said: “What is the subject of the sentence?” He just looked at me. So I repeated, “What is the subject of the sentence?” He didn't know. This was the only person in the Watchtower to read Greek and he didn't know, the subject of the sentence in John 1:1. And these were the people who wrote back to you and said their opinion was as good as yours.

    DR. MANTEY: That's right.

    DR. MARTIN: Often we find JW publications quoting scholars. Do they quote these people in context?

    DR. MANTEY: No. They use this device to fool people into thinking that scholars agree with the JWs. Out of all the Greek professors, grammarians, and commentators they have quoted, only one (a Unitarian) agreed that “the word was a god.”

    DR. MARTIN: You have been quoted as saying that the translators of the NWT are “diabolical deceivers.”

    DR. MANTEY: Yes. The translation is deceptive, and I believe it's a terrible thing for a person to be deceived and go into eternity lost, forever lost because somebody deliberately misled him by distorting the Scripture!

    DR. MARTIN: What would you say to a JW who was looking for the truth?

    DR. MANTEY: I would advise him to get a translation other than the NWT, because ninety-nine percent of the scholars of the world who know Greek and who have helped translate the Bible are in disagreement with the JWs. People who are looking for the truth ought to know what the majority of the scholars really believe. They should not allow themselves to be misled by the JWs and end up in hell.

    Christian Research Institute

    Deception Exposed:

    We feel Mantey has exposed the deception with his own words! How much more powerful can it get than that?

    #308555
    Devolution
    Participant

    © 2001 by David W. Daniels

    Question: Isn't it true that the King James Bible was translated by only half a dozen manuscripts, and that none of them was earlier than the 10th century (900s) AD?

    Answer: This is true, but it misses an important point. It is true that the manuscripts used were copies of copies of copies written over many centuries. These “new” Greek manuscripts match up with over 5,700 others, some just as old as those from Alexandria, Egypt. Over 99% of the manuscripts we have found, ancient and modern, show an amazing agreement with each other. This is a testimony to God's preservation of His words!

    Contrast this to the Alexandrian writings, used by the Roman Catholic institution and almost all “modern scholars.” The only 45 manuscripts called “Alexandrian,” many copied in the same school, not only do not agree with the vast majority, but they do not match up with each other!

    But God's preserved words, descended from the apostles and sent from Antioch (Acts 11:26), were so important to the true Christians that they continued to be accurately copied century after century!

    How important could the Alexandrian writings be, if these “scholars” could not even get together one clear Bible?

    God preserved His words. The King James Bible is the accurate and complete translation of them, from Greek in Antioch of Syria into the English language.
    ===============================================
    © 2001 by David W. Daniels

    Question: What was the method the King James translators used to translate the Bible?

    Answer: King James had no part whatsoever in the translation of the Bible that now bears his name. But there were 47-54 scholars, however, whom God used to bring us His preserved words in English.

    Translating the Authorized Version

    54 scholars were appointed in 1604, and a few overseers were also present, who went from group to group. In time through death the number of translators diminished to 47. They were given three locations to work: Oxford, Cambridge and Westminster. And two groups worked at each location, making a total of six groups. The Bible was also divided up into six sections. Each group took one section, working on one book at a time.

    First, each translator made his own translation of the book, which was reviewed by each other member of the group. Then the whole group reviewed the book. When they all agreed on the translation, they sent it to the other five groups for evaluation. Those groups then returned it to the original committee, marking anything they disagreed with. The original group would then go over the book again.

    When all six committees finished with the book, it was sent, with any differences that were left, to a special committee made up of one leader from each of the six groups. They solved any remaining problems, and the book was sent to the printers.

    But they did not work in secret, as did the “Revisers” in 1871 – 1881. At any time, the translators could ask an outside scholar for his understanding, and anyone could find out about the progress. The churches were kept informed at all times1.

    In all, every single verse of the Bible was carefully examined and decided upon a total of fourteen times, by as many as 50 or more people! This made it impossible for any one translator to impose his personal viewpoint on a passage. He had to have logical reasons for a translation that were good enough to persuade every other scholar before it could be written into the text. There was no “private interpretation” here!
    (2 Peter 1:20-21)

    Footnotes

    1 Even liberal author Hannah O’Brien Chaplin Conant admitted this kind of “open” process was unlike any translation before and contributed to its genius. See The English Bible: History of the Translation of the Holy Scriptures into English (London: Trübner & Co., 1856), pp. 433 (note Translator’s Rules #11 & #12), 437-39. Available at http://www.books.google.com.

    ===============================================

    #308560
    terraricca
    Participant

    devo

    this is a story that contains a marvel in knowledge;

    1Sa 5:1 After the Philistines had captured the ark of God, they took it from Ebenezer to Ashdod.
    1Sa 5:2 Then they carried the ark into Dagon’s temple and set it beside Dagon.
    1Sa 5:3 When the people of Ashdod rose early the next day, there was Dagon, fallen on his face on the ground before the ark of the LORD? They took Dagon and put him back in his place.
    1Sa 5:4 But the following morning when they rose, there was Dagon, fallen on his face on the ground before the ark of the LORD? His head and hands had been broken off and were lying on the threshold; only his body remained.
    1Sa 5:5 That is why to this day neither the priests of Dagon nor any others who enter Dagon’s temple at Ashdod step on the threshold.
    1Sa 5:6 The LORD'S hand was heavy upon the people of Ashdod and its vicinity; he brought devastation upon them and afflicted them with tumors.
    1Sa 5:7 When the men of Ashdod saw what was happening, they said, “The ark of the god of Israel must not stay here with us, because his hand is heavy upon us and upon Dagon our god.”
    1Sa 5:8 So they called together all the rulers of the Philistines and asked them, “What shall we do with the ark of the god of Israel?”
    They answered, “Have the ark of the god of Israel moved to Gath.” So they moved the ark of the God of Israel.
    1Sa 5:9 But after they had moved it, the LORD'S hand was against that city, throwing it into a great panic. He afflicted the people of the city, both young and old, with an outbreak of tumors.
    1Sa 5:10 So they sent the ark of God to Ekron.
    As the ark of God was entering Ekron, the people of Ekron cried out, “They have brought the ark of the god of Israel around to us to kill us and our people.”
    1Sa 5:11 So they called together all the rulers of the Philistines and said, “Send the ark of the god of Israel away; let it go back to its own place, or it will kill us and our people.” For death had filled the city with panic; God’s hand was very heavy upon it.
    1Sa 5:12 Those who did not die were afflicted with tumors, and the outcry of the city went up to heaven.

    The Ark Returned to Israel

    1Sa 6:1 When the ark of the LORD had been in Philistine territory seven months,
    1Sa 6:2 the Philistines called for the priests and the diviners and said, “What shall we do with the ark of the LORD? Tell us how we should send it back to its place.”
    1Sa 6:3 They answered, “If you return the ark of the god of Israel, do not send it away empty, but by all means send a guilt offering to him. Then you will be healed, and you will know why his hand has not been lifted from you.”
    1Sa 6:4 The Philistines asked, “What guilt offering should we send to him?”
    They replied, “Five gold tumors and five gold rats, according to the number of the Philistine rulers, because the same plague has struck both you and your rulers.
    1Sa 6:5 Make models of the tumors and of the rats that are destroying the country, and pay honor to Israel’s god. Perhaps he will lift his hand from you and your gods and your land.
    1Sa 6:6 Why do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh did? When he treated them harshly, did they not send the Israelites out so they could go on their way?
    1Sa 6:7 “Now then, get a new cart ready, with two cows that have calved and have never been yoked. Hitch the cows to the cart, but take their calves away and pen them up.
    1Sa 6:8 Take the ark of the LORD and put it on the cart, and in a chest beside it put the gold objects you are sending back to him as a guilt offering. Send it on its way,
    1Sa 6:9 but keep watching it. If it goes up to its own territory, toward Beth Shemesh, then the LORD has brought this great disaster on us. But if it does not, then we will know that it was not his hand that struck us and that it happened to us by chance.”
    1Sa 6:10 So they did this. They took two such cows and hitched them to the cart and penned up their calves.
    1Sa 6:11 They placed the ark of the LORD on the cart and along with it the chest containing the gold rats and the models of the tumors.
    1Sa 6:12 Then the cows went straight up toward Beth Shemesh, keeping on the road and lowing all the way; they did not turn to the right or to the left. The rulers of the Philistines followed them as far as the border of Beth Shemesh.
    1Sa 6:13 Now the people of Beth Shemesh were harvesting their wheat in the valley, and when they looked up and saw the ark, they rejoiced at the sight.
    1Sa 6:14 The cart came to the field of Joshua of Beth Shemesh, and there it stopped beside a large rock. The people chopped up the wood of the cart and sacrificed the cows as a burnt offering to the LORD.
    1Sa 6:15 The Levites took down the ark of the LORD, together with the chest containing the gold objects, and placed them on the large rock. On that day the people of Beth Shemesh offered burnt offerings and made sacrifices to the LORD.
    1Sa 6:16 The five rulers of the Philistines saw all this and then returned that same day to Ekron.
    1Sa 6:17 These are the gold tumors the Philistines sent as a guilt offering to the LORD—one each for Ashdod, Gaza, Ashkelon, Gath and Ekron.
    1Sa 6:18 And the number of the gold rats was according to the number of Philistine towns belonging to the five rulers—the fortified towns with their country villages. The large rock, on which they set the ark of the LORD, is a witness to this day in the field of Joshua of Beth Shemesh.
    1Sa 6:19 But God struck down some of the men of Beth Shemesh, putting seventy of them to death because they had looked into the ark of the LORD. The people mourned because of the heavy blow the LORD had dealt them,
    1Sa 6:20 and the men of Beth Shemesh asked, “Who can stand in the presence of the LORD, this holy God? To whom will the ark go up from here?”
    1Sa 6:21 Then they sent messengers to the people of Kiriath Jearim, saying, “The Philistines have returned the ark of the LORD. Come down and take it up to your place.”
    1Sa 7:1 So the men of Kiriath Jearim came and took up the ark of the LORD. They took it to Abinadab’s house on the hill and consecrated Eleazar his son to guard the ark of the LORD

    PS 14:2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
    To see if there are any who understand,
    Who seek after God.

    #308567
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2012,05:04)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 04 2012,11:51)
    Jesus’ words, “the Father is in Me,” must have left a strong impression on Thomas.
    Indeed, they are the key to correctly understand what doubting Thomas later meant when
    he said to Jesus, “my God.” That is, Thomas acknowledged what Jesus had taught ten
    days prior, that God the Father is in Jesus.


    Frank,

    The part I quoted is the ONLY part of your huge cut and paste that actually addresses the point in question.

    All those words boil down to one little thing:  Your author has INTERPRETED those words to mean Thomas was talking to both Jesus AND “the Father in him”.

    Unfortunately, one cannot honestly come to that interpretation from the words Thomas said, or the surrounding context John wrote.

    As for the rest of the post, it is good scriptural information proving that Jesus is not God Almighty – but bears no light on the words Thomas spoke.


    My Lord And My God

    Seeing the Invisible

    When Tæoma (Thomas) saw Yeshua after his resurrection he made a peculiar statement that some have interpreted as blasphemy and others as confirmation of Yeshua's deity.

    “And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.” – John 20:28, KJV

    “And Tæoma said to him, My master and my Almighty.” – Yuħänän (John) 20:28, Peshitta

    But to attain the correct understanding we must keep this statement in the context of a previous discussion.

    “Yëshuå said to him, I am the way and the truth and the life. Nobody may come to the Father except in me. If you knew me, you would also know my Father. And soon you will know Him and you will see Him. Pilipoş said to him, Our master, show us the Father and it will satisfy us. Yëshuå said to him, I have been with you all this time and you do not know me, Pilipoş? He who sees me sees the Father. So how can you say, Show us the Father? Do you not believe that I am in my Father and my Father is in me? The words which I speak, I do not speak of my own, but my Father who lives in me performs these works.” – Yuħänän (John) 14:6-9

    So afterward just as Yeshua had said, Tæoma finally recognized the Father, Who is God, within Yeshua. He saw the character and the power of God exhibited in his master. The first part of his statement “My master” was to show he had overcome his doubt about whether this man before him was in fact his risen master, then after pause revealed that he had also come to acknowledge that his master was in the Father, and the Father was in his master. He no longer needed to see God, Who can not be seen physically, but saw what qualities could be seen of Him in Yeshua.
    Leaves in the Wind

    One might say. “Show me the wind.” However, the wind is not visible, it is invisible. But if we throw leaves into the wind and put the wind into the leaves, we can perceive the wind, how it moves, it's direction and speed. However we are really only seeing the effect or characteristics of the wind, and not the wind directly itself. In this way Yeshua is like the leaves, and God is like the wind.And when one sees leaves being whipped up into the air they say, “Look at that wind!” At first the disciple only saw the leaves, then he realized that the leaves reveal the wind while the leaves are not the wind and no one has ever seen the wind.

    “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” – John 1:18, KJV

    “No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.” – 1 John 4:12-16, KJV

    “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?” – 1 Corinthians 3:16, KJV

    The reason I have quoted the King James Version of the bible here is because these passages are faithful to the original message and it is the source so many trust who have misinterpretedTæoma 's statement as an indication of the deity of messiah. So there is no excuse to not understand exactly what he meant. It is obvious that we too could receive such a statement since we too are to have God living within us and we too are to exhibit His characteristics.

    Let me repeat that in case you did not realize what is being said here. You can say to a faithful believer “My master and my Almighty” or “My Lord and my God” with this understanding and intention, and you should be able to say that of any believer. You are then saying, I see the messiah in you, and I see God in you.
    SOURCE

    #308568
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2012,03:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 06 2012,22:59)
    The lack of “thou art” or an equivilent reveals to us that Thomas was not declaring Jesus to be Lord and God.


    Kerwin,

    Do a search of the words “my lord” in the scriptures.  See how many times people call others “my lord” without saying the words “thou art”.  Surely they are STILL declaring that one to be their lord, right?


    Mike,

    I do not think you are understanding me.  When a person states “you are my lord” they are making a declaration.  When they state “my lord” they are calling them by the title “my lord”.

    Though I have seen both men and angels called “my lord” I  have never seen either called “my god” in Scripture.

    #308571
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Limjunus,

    You only have to read it again and reflect.

    The trouble is that you simply cannot get it into  your MIND,that in order to glorify GOD THE FATHER :

    YOU MUST ONLY DO IT,SINCE YOU ARE SINFULL,AND MORTAL:

    THROUGH JESUS CHRIST THE ONLY TRUE GOD FOR HUMANS

    THE FATHER WOULD IGNORE YOU COMPLETELY,HE IS ONLY A GOD TO HIS ANGELS.

    Matthew 10:32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven

    33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

    Peace and Love in Jesus

    Charles

    #308572
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 09 2012,14:40)

    Quote
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Limjunus,

    You only have to read it again and reflect.

    The trouble is that you simply cannot get it into  your MIND,that in order to glorify GOD THE FATHER :

    YOU MUST ONLY DO IT,SINCE YOU ARE SINFULL,AND MORTAL:

    THROUGH JESUS CHRIST THE ONLY TRUE GOD FOR HUMANS

    THE FATHER WOULD IGNORE YOU COMPLETELY,HE IS ONLY A GOD TO HIS ANGELS.

    Matthew 10:32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven

    33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

    Peace and Love in Jesus

    Charles


    charles

    what a piece of crap are you telling here ???

    do you know at the least what is to give glory to God ???

    #308573
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    charles

    what a piece of crap are you telling here

    do you know at the least what is to give glory to God  

    TERRARICCA,

    FOR GOD'S SAKE:

    THERE'S NO GOD FOR HUMANS WITHOUT

    JESUS CHRIST.

    THE FACT THAT WE SAY

    THE OUR FATHER IT'S ONLY BECAUSE WE BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, AND THROUGH JESUS CHRIST BELIEFE WE WOULD GLORIFY THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER ACCEPTS US.

    SO NO JESUS CHRIST NO GOD ALMIGHTY

    NO ONE GET TO THE FATHER IF NOT THROUGH JESUS CHRIST

    AND THAT GENERALLY SPEAKING.

    SO OUR TRUE GOD SINCE WE ARE HUMANS IS

    JESUS CHRIST,

    HE IS OUR FATHER ,

    OUR BROTHER,

    AND OUR GOD.

    SO

    PEACE AND LOVE IN MY LORD AND MY GOD JESUS CHRIST

    CHARLES

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