John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 9,281 through 9,300 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #308470
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 07 2012,12:52)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 07 2012,12:51)

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 06 2012,19:40)
    Hi Mike,

    It sure is hard to get Jammin to answer questions; is it not?

    God bless
    Ed J


    Ed,

    It's not just jammin.  It's hard to get straight answers out of many people who realize the straight answer is going to hurt their doctrine.

    Some people become so comfortable with a lie that they no longer want to accept the truth that is right before their eyes.  (This happens in certain relationships also – where one knows the other is cheating, but doesn't really WANT to know, and so just ignores it, hoping it will go away.)


    this is true to you and to ed.

    until now u are not answering my easy question

    your father is truly human, do you believe that> yes or no?


    [B]Mike,

    Jammin is diverting the issue to human nature and not to the nature (attributes) of God.

    Human nature is easy to understand. Of course if the issue is the human nature, the answer is our father in the flesh is “truly human”

    but the main issue is the nature (attributes) of God, and it is not easy to understand, like Jammin.

    God nature (attributes) is; could no be multiplied like human nature, alone, holy, Almighty, invisible, immortal and etc., etc.,

    So, which natuer (attributes) of God, Jesus Christ had, so that he could be equal with God?

    Jammin, had failed to explain it, because he really do not know the nature of the one and only true God.

    The danger with Jammin, is “he just found the verses that seem could be use to prove that Jesus is truly God, then stop and ignore the other truth in the Bible.

    I am petty with him … Peace. :D

    #308471
    jammin
    Participant

    limjunus,

    dreaming is all that you can do

    #308472
    jammin
    Participant

    limjunus said:
    the answer is our father in the flesh is “truly human”

    ———
    thanks.
    now, are you truly HUMAN just like your father? yes or no?

    #308474
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 07 2012,20:49)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 07 2012,20:18)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 07 2012,09:16)

    Quote (journey42 @ Aug. 06 2012,04:59)
    ok I'll look at it with my trusted KJV!


    Why?  The info I just posted for you wasn't someone's “guess”, journey.  It is now a clear and undeniable FACT that the word “God” did not appear in any Greek ms of 1 Tim 3:16 until AFTER 200 AD.

    The earlier mss DO NOT have the word God in that verse.  When the KJV was translated, they translated from the oldest and best mss known to them AT THAT TIME.  We have since uncovered older and better ones – which is why the NASB, NIV, NRSV, and the other newer Bibles don't have the word “God” in that verse.  Neither do the ancient Syriac texts, nor the Latin Vulgate.

    Why would you even entertain jammin by using a translation that has been shown to be flawed in that particular verse?  ???

    An honest but mistaken man, once shown the truth, either ceases to be mistaken, or ceases to be honest.


    He (Jammin) even ignore the real context of John 20:24-31 Why Thomas exclaimed “My LORD and MY GOD!”

    The truth and fact is, Thomas, during that moment is not preaching who Jesus is? but instead he is the “unbeliever”. (doubting Thomas)

    When Jesus had prove to Thomas that he was raised from the dead by God, Thomas, exclaimed the words MY LORD AND MY GOD, is not to show that he recognize Jesus is his Lord and God, but to show his extreme guiltiness by exclaiming the words he had uttered.

    I will post many verses from different versions of the Bible, that bearing and seem the words that Jesus Christ is God, but all of it is not the truth regarding about “who is the one and only true God (.. invisible and immortal God).

    Peace  :D  ???


    let me post john 20.28 of NLT
    John 20:28

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    28 “My Lord and my God!” Thomas exclaimed.

    limjunus is using this version to prove that this is not referring to christ as God.
    what is the stand of NLT for this??

    let me post phil 2.6 of NLT
    Philippians 2:6

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,[a]
       he did not think of equality with God
       as something to cling to.

    the NLT believes that Christ is God
    —————-

    limjunus you are out of your mind boy. LOL

    make more research. your words are non sense.


    Jammin,

    I have my full explanation why I do not agree with your understanding. Just read the Bible context of the event between Jesus and Thomas. (John 20:24-28) It was self explanatory and very easy ti understand. Unlike your's, you just holding to a verse 28, and you are rushing for a conclusion with your own and just placing the truth about John 20:24-28 in a waste basket.

    You are not REALLY digging the very deepest of the truth, why Thomas, exclaimed the words MY LORD MY GOD!?

    See, you could not able to answers my question directly and you have a big guts to posture and pretending like a talented individual? Shame on you.

    :ghostface:

    #308475
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 07 2012,21:46)
    ill repeat
    limjunus,

    do you agree that you and your father have the same nature, and that is your HUMAN NATURE? yes or no?

    if you answer yes,
    do you believe that your father is TRULY HUMAN?
    yes or no?


    Read my answer Blind man!

    Already answered, then question again?, just to escape![B]

    Yohoooooooo Jammin, are you blind and deaf, where is your answers?

    You should have a sense of humiliation. How can your face your opponents if you could not able to answer his questions?

    May be your face is a double thicker?

    #308476
    jammin
    Participant

    you answered that ur father is truly human.

    you did not answer if you are ALSO truly human just like your father

    are you truly human JUST LIKE YOUR FATHER? YES OR NO?

    #308477
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 07 2012,22:20)
    limjunus said:
    the answer is our father in the flesh is “truly human”

    ———
    thanks.
    now, are you truly HUMAN just like your father? yes or no?


    Even though it is not the subject matter, i will answer you again. blank shot! are human Jammin, so, if you are human, is your father human or not???

    You said Jesus Christ, the begotten Son of God was in the nature of God, His Father is God, so the Son is also God, how many truly God do you have now?

    #308478
    limjunus
    Participant

    Jammin, yohoooooo! where is your answer to my questions?

    1.) HOW MANY TRUE GOD DO YOU RECOGNIZE?

    2.) WHO IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, IS JESUS CHRIST, THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD OR HIS FATHER WHO HAD BEGOTTEN HIM?

    3.) WHO IS THE ALONE GOD, INVISIBLE AND IMMORTAL GOD?

    I will re-post it again and again like what you done until I got your answers. :blues:

    #308479
    limjunus
    Participant

    Jammin, yohoooooo! where is your answer to my questions?

    1.) HOW MANY TRUE GOD DO YOU RECOGNIZE?

    2.) WHO IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, IS JESUS CHRIST, THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD OR HIS FATHER WHO HAD BEGOTTEN HIM?

    3.) WHO IS THE ALONE GOD, INVISIBLE AND IMMORTAL GOD?

    I will re-post it again and again like what you done until I got your answers.

    #308480
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 07 2012,22:20)
    limjunus said:
    the answer is our father in the flesh is “truly human”

    ———
    thanks.
    now, are you truly HUMAN just like your father? yes or no?


    Jammin, yohoooooo! where is your answer to my questions?

    1.) HOW MANY TRUE GOD DO YOU RECOGNIZE?

    2.) WHO IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, IS JESUS CHRIST, THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD OR HIS FATHER WHO HAD BEGOTTEN HIM?

    3.) WHO IS THE ALONE GOD, INVISIBLE AND IMMORTAL GOD?

    I will re-post it again and again like what you done until I got your answers.

    #308481
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 07 2012,21:46)
    ill repeat
    limjunus,

    do you agree that you and your father have the same nature, and that is your HUMAN NATURE? yes or no?

    if you answer yes,
    do you believe that your father is TRULY HUMAN?
    yes or no?


    Jammin, yohoooooo! where is your answer to my questions?

    1.) HOW MANY TRUE GOD DO YOU RECOGNIZE?

    2.) WHO IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, IS JESUS CHRIST, THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD OR HIS FATHER WHO HAD BEGOTTEN HIM?

    3.) WHO IS THE ALONE GOD, INVISIBLE AND IMMORTAL GOD?

    I will re-post it again and again like what you done until I got your answers.

    #308482
    limjunus
    Participant

    Jammin, yohoooooo! where is your answer to my questions?

    1.) HOW MANY TRUE GOD DO YOU RECOGNIZE?

    2.) WHO IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, IS JESUS CHRIST, THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD OR HIS FATHER WHO HAD BEGOTTEN HIM?

    3.) WHO IS THE ALONE GOD, INVISIBLE AND IMMORTAL GOD?

    I will re-post it again and again like what you done until I got your answers.

    :D :D :D :D :D :D

    #308483
    limjunus
    Participant

    Jammin, yohoooooo! where is your answer to my questions?

    1.) HOW MANY TRUE GOD DO YOU RECOGNIZE?

    2.) WHO IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, IS JESUS CHRIST, THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD OR HIS FATHER WHO HAD BEGOTTEN HIM?

    3.) WHO IS THE ALONE, INVISIBLE AND IMMORTAL GOD?

    I will re-post it again and again like what you done until I got your answers.

    Jammin are you still there?:) :( :D :cool: :blues:

    #308484
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 08 2012,00:44)
    you answered that ur father is truly human.

    you did not answer if you are ALSO truly human just like your father

    are you truly human JUST LIKE YOUR FATHER? YES OR NO?


    Jammin, yohoooooo! where is your answer to my questions?

    1.) HOW MANY TRUE GOD DO YOU RECOGNIZE?

    2.) WHO IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, IS JESUS CHRIST, THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD OR HIS FATHER WHO HAD BEGOTTEN HIM?

    3.) WHO IS THE ALONE, INVISIBLE AND IMMORTAL GOD?

    I will re-post it again and again like what you done until I got your answers.

    Jammin you still around? :D :( :) :ghostface:

    #308485
    limjunus
    Participant

    Jammin, yohoooooo! where is your answer to my questions?

    1.) HOW MANY TRUE GOD DO YOU RECOGNIZE?

    2.) WHO IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, IS JESUS CHRIST, THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD OR HIS FATHER WHO HAD BEGOTTEN HIM?

    3.) WHO IS THE ALONE, INVISIBLE AND IMMORTAL GOD?

    I will re-post it again and again like what you done until I got your answers.

    Jammin, Jammin, Jammin, are you blind and deaf? Nabulunan ka ba at hindi ka makasagot? :D :p :D ???

    #308495
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    given your own conclusion. Jesus ascending to my Father,.. is mean to you that from human being into a Supreme being?

    Limjunus,

    TO BE EXACT:

    FROM  A WORM INTO GOD

    With every respect, through your babyish  questions, you confirmed that you need MILK NOT MEAT.!!!

    Before we start can you define how one can assert himself that something is in the truth??

    Quote
    If Jesus Christ is truly God, why need to be changed from truly God into truly God?

    Are you not aware what glorification means???

    Are you not aware that Jesus solidified what he had as a mere man??

    Are you not aware that Jesus was a mere human, a worm, in order to be in all things like His brethren, and through His death and resurrection He unified His soul and His flesh into one eternal spiritual flesh body???

    Are you not aware that through the above description, so not to repeat, Jesus , became both visible and invisible in one being???

    Quote
    another confusion is, “if the begotten Son is truly God, why changing from Son God into a Father God?

    Are you not aware that Jesus, in view of the above, He is a visible TRULY God as man Jesus for our sake in order to own us, since we were owned by Satan, His contender for manhood. ALSO an invisible God, and a Father to us, in His Father  since He became ONE WITH HIS FATHER, in order to be an overall God, as soon as the Spirit of the Father entered Jesus’ Soul??

    Are you not aware that the FATHER is also glorified and became even more Almighty considering the fact that scripture says:

    John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine………….

    Are you not aware that the above scripture says that Jesus a mere man, a worm, had to furnish the FATHER with all His (Jesus) THINGS, in order to make His Father TRUE, since up to then He was unknown even to His angels, NOT WITHSTANDING THE FACT THAT MOST OF YOU ON HEAVEN NET DECLARE THAT HE IS NOT THE TRUE GOD.

    Are you not aware that Jesus, before creation He was in ONE glory with the Father as spirits, and after resurrection He became ONE in the same glory but in the flesh as well??

    TO BE DECLARED THE TRULY GOD??

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

    Are you not aware that Jesus, after His glorification, since now you know what it means, He became OFFICIALLY the sole proprietor of the entire creation, something which God Almighty never was and not yet is, and He has to wait for millions and millions of years to achieve and become ALL IN ALL ON THE LAST DAY, AND  ALSO, SINCE HE IS ONLY SPIRIT,THROUGH JESUS,IN JESUS ,AND FOR JESUS BODY??

    Did Jesus need from truly God(Human) to be changed to truly God both carnal and spiritual???  

    Are you not aware, that the human race are not capable to save themselves, in fact they are dead, unless they give themselves entirely to Jesus, never mind Almighty God, not withstanding the fact that MOST OF YOU ON HEAVEN NET DECLARE THAT HE IS NOT THE TRUE GOD.

    Are you not aware, that the cause of our creation, was only and purposely beneficial to the human race, and not to either God Almighty, and to Jesus.  

    Quote
    Another confusion you have made is, “If Jesus Christ is truly God, who is the flesh and died?

    SATAN'S

    This is a babyish question?? YOU NEED MILK,NOT MEAT!!

    THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING, THE SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE!!

    John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh, is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit.

    John6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing………….

    Romans 8:1 THERE is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH

    3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh; God sending his own Son, IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH AND OF SIN (SATAN'S) HATH CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH

    4 That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us, who WALK NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT.

    5 For they that are ACCORDING TO THE FLESH mind the things that are ACCORDING TO THE FLESH,BUT THEY THAT ARE ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT MIND THE THINGS THAT ARE OF THE SPIRIT.

    6 For the WISDOM OF THE FLESH IS DEATH; but the WISDOM OF THE SPIRIT IS LIFE AND PEACE .

    7 Because the WISDOM OF THE FLESH IS AN ENEMY OF GOD (SATAN'S); for it is not subject to the law of God, neither can it be. 8 And they who are IN THE FLESH, CANNOT PLEASE GOD.

    Peace and love in Jesus.

    Charles

    #308496
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 06 2012,21:21)
    Hi Mike,

    God is in the “Textus Receptus”.

    God bless
    Ed J


    Yes Ed,

    And that is likely why the KJV has “God” in 1 Tim 3:16 – because it was from the Textus Receptus that the KJV was translated.

    But the Textus Receptus was compiled from “six manuscripts, containing between them not quite the whole of the New Testament. The missing text was back-translated from the Vulgate.”  And the Textus Receptus was “based mainly on late manuscripts of the Byzantine text-type…..”  (From Wikipedia)

    Ed, note that the missing text was back-translated from the Latin Vulgate.  And the Latin Vulgate has “who”, not “God” in 1 Tim 3:16.  In fact, so does the Syriac mss, and all of the early Western mss.

    We could go into “information overload” on this subject if we wanted to, but the bottom line is that the KJV was translated from later mss; and we know that many later mss contain scribal alterations.  For example, it was a later scribe that added the extra words in 1 John 5:7.  It was a later scribe that omitted the words “nor the Son” from Matthew 24:36.  And it was obviously a later scribe who changed “who” to “God” in 1 Tim 3:16.  Think about it Ed, NONE of the early Western mss have “God”, even though they were strictly Orthodox and defended the deity of Jesus with all their might.  Surely no Trinitarian scribe from their ranks would have changed “God” to “who”, right?  So it had to be the other way around.

    Also consider that no recent Trinitarian sponsored translation of the Bible has “God” in 3:16 either.  Why?  Don't you suppose that if “God” wasn't KNOWN to be a scribal alteration, Bibles like the NIV (where the 100+ translators had to sign off on being a Trinitarian before they were allowed on the project) would JUMP at the chance to have “God” in their versions?  But none of them do.  Why?

    The bottom line is that the OLDER, BETTER mss have “who” or “which”.

    As a side note, also from Wiki:

    …..in Matthew 24:36 which reads in the Alexandrian text “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only”; whereas the Byzantine text omits the phrase “nor the Son”, thereby avoiding the implication that Jesus lacked full divine foreknowledge.

    This is why we MUST look into some of these things.  Various well-meaning Trinitarians have been doctoring God's Book for years.

    Ed, I like the KJV.  I'm not trying to slam it here – but instead to point out that it was translated from later, somewhat doctored mss.

    Here is some good, BRIEF information on this issue.  Take a look please.

    #308497
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (journey42 @ Aug. 06 2012,22:13)
    Mike

    If the word God wasn't used, then what word was?


    Hi journey,

    I'm sorry I came on so strong. I was just shocked to see that you would be willing to pick tradition over truth in this matter.

    The original word was “who”, or “which”. But you can read my post to Ed right above this post if you want to know more.

    (I suggest you read the link at the bottom of the page in my post to Ed. It is short and to the point, and should only take 10 minutes out of your life. :) )

    #308498
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 06 2012,22:25)

    Quote (journey42 @ Aug. 07 2012,15:09)
    .
    What version do you suggest I read?


    of course his one and only NEW WORLD TRANSLATION
    :D

    LOL


    Yes jammin,

    The NWT is a very good translation.  I actually prefer the NIV wording, and like it the best out of the four translations I've read cover to cover.

    journey, I suggest using a site like NETBible, or  Biblos.com for “comparison shopping”.  :)

    On those sites, you can view many parallel translations, plus check out the actual Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew words to see which translation comes the closest to the original.

    There are also many commentaries you can read to find out even more concerning any particular scripture.

    90% of the time, I quote the NIV when I quote scripture here.  But that is not to say that they don't also have their own oddball renderings.  Just check out John 1:18 in the NIV to see what I mean.  Talk about bizarre and confusing.  :D

    #308499
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 06 2012,22:59)
    The lack of “thou art” or an equivilent reveals to us that Thomas was not declaring Jesus to be Lord and God.


    Kerwin,

    Do a search of the words “my lord” in the scriptures. See how many times people call others “my lord” without saying the words “thou art”. Surely they are STILL declaring that one to be their lord, right?

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