John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 9,321 through 9,340 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #308574
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 09 2012,14:58)

    Quote
    charles

    what a piece of crap are you telling here

    do you know at the least what is to give glory to God  

    TERRARICCA,

    FOR GOD'S SAKE:

    THERE'S NO GOD FOR HUMANS WITHOUT

    JESUS CHRIST.

    THE FACT THAT WE SAY

    THE OUR FATHER IT'S ONLY BECAUSE WE BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, AND THROUGH JESUS CHRIST BELIEFE WE WOULD GLORIFY THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER ACCEPTS US.

    SO NO JESUS CHRIST NO GOD ALMIGHTY

    NO ONE GET TO THE FATHER IF NOT THROUGH JESUS CHRIST

    AND THAT GENERALLY SPEAKING.

    SO OUR TRUE GOD SINCE WE ARE HUMANS IS

    JESUS CHRIST,

    HE IS OUR FATHER ,

    OUR BROTHER,

    AND OUR GOD.

    SO

    PEACE AND LOVE IN MY LORD AND MY GOD JESUS CHRIST

    CHARLES


    Charles

    I have to disagree with you because it is not true what you are saying ; here is truth;

    1CO 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

    GAL 1:4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
    Phil 4:20 Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
    1TH 1:3 constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,
    1TH 2:2 but after we had already suffered and been mistreated in Philippi, as you know, we had the boldness in our God to speak to you the gospel of God amid much opposition.
    1TH 3:9 For what thanks can we render to God for you in return for all the joy with which we rejoice before our God on your account,
    1TH 3:11 Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you;
    1TH 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

    2TH 1:11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,
    2TH 1:12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    HEB 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.

    JAS 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

    2PE 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
    To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
    JUDE 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
    REV 4:11 “ Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”

    REV 5:10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”

    REV 7:3 saying, “ Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”

    REV 7:10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
    “ Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
    REV 7:12 saying,
    “ Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

    [B]understand that Christ himself his only the son of God and will subdue himself at the end when all his father will has been accomplished and we will receive live from God himself for the faith we had in his son ,and stayed free of sinning more,I still have more scriptures if you think it not enough

    #308575
    terraricca
    Participant

    Charles

    Quote
    THE OUR FATHER IT'S ONLY BECAUSE WE BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, AND THROUGH JESUS CHRIST BELIEFE WE WOULD GLORIFY THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER ACCEPTS US.

    how do we glorify God and also Christ ???? the above words are not clear to me ,

    #308576
    terraricca
    Participant

    Charles

    in the O.T
    DT 1:6 “The LORD our God spoke to us at Horeb, saying, ‘You have stayed long enough at this mountain.
    DT 1:19 “Then we set out from Horeb, and went through all that great and terrible wilderness which you saw on the way to the hill country of the Amorites, just as the LORD our God had commanded us; and we came to Kadesh-barnea.
    DT 1:20 “I said to you, ‘You have come to the hill country of the Amorites which the LORD our God is about to give us.
    DT 1:25 “Then they took some of the fruit of the land in their hands and brought it down to us; and they brought us back a report and said, ‘It is a good land which the LORD our God is about to give us.’
    DT 1:41 “ Then you said to me, ‘We have sinned against the LORD; we will indeed go up and fight, just as the LORD our God commanded us.’ And every man of you girded on his weapons of war, and regarded it as easy to go up into the hill country.
    DT 2:29 just as the sons of Esau who live in Seir and the Moabites who live in Ar did for me, until I cross over the Jordan into the land which the LORD our God is giving to us.’
    DT 2:33 “ The LORD our God delivered him over to us, and we defeated him with his sons and all his people.

    this is were God communicate with his people

    #308578
    terraricca
    Participant

    charles

    Quote
    SO OUR TRUE GOD SINCE WE ARE HUMANS IS

    JESUS CHRIST,

    HE IS OUR FATHER ,

    OUR BROTHER,

    AND OUR GOD.

    SO

    PEACE AND LOVE IN MY LORD AND MY GOD JESUS CHRIST

    CHARLES

    you are confused,Jesus Christ his not his father ,and will never be ,CHRIST HIS THE MEAN THAT GOD AS MADE FOR US TO BRING US BACK TO HIM, JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD IS HIMSELF A CREATION AND THEREFORE CANNOT BE WORSHIPED ,ONLY GOD ALMIGHTY CAN RECEIVE TRUE WORSHIP BECAUSE HE HIS THE ORIGINATOR OF ALL THINGS PAST ,PRESENT AND FUTURE ,AND IT IS NOT BECAUSE WE ARE MEN THAT HE DOES NO LONGER TALK TO US IT IS BECAUSE OUR SINFUL NATURE ,AND THIS IS THE REASON WHY HE SEND HIS SON TO WASH THIS OFF OUR SOUL SO WE COULD ONCE AGAIN FACE OUR CREATOR ,

    #308579
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 08 2012,00:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2012,08:24)
     And I find no scripture that says we too will become Gods.


    Mike,

    We will become God's family but not we will become Gods! :D


    Right. But apparently the Trinitarians don't think about the fact that some of us will become SONS to God, and BROTHERS to Jesus.

    Surely that, in and of itself, shows that Jesus is not God. I guess they think they will become BROTHERS to God Almighty. ???

    #308581
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Devolution @ Aug. 08 2012,07:05)
    In Greek, the word for God was abbreviated, like this:
    ΘC

    But the word “who” (which the NIV called “he”) was written like this:
    OC  

    The difference between “God” and “who” in Greek was a little line. The amazing thing is, by the Alexandrians removing a line from one letter, they took away the deity of Christ!


    Devo,

    If you're actually interested in learning the truth of this matter, you can read footnote #3 on the NET translation here.

    It tells how the Alexandrian isn't the only ancient text that has “hos” instead of “theos”, which renders the claim your author made null and void.

    Or, you can read this from Barnes:
    Probably there is no passage in the New Testament which has excited so much discussion among critics as this, and none in reference to which it is so difficult to determine the true reading. It is the only one, it is believed, in which the microscope has been employed to determine the lines of the letters used in a manuscript…..  

    To ascertain which of these is the true reading, has been the great question; and it is with reference to this that the microscope has been resorted to in the examination of the Alexandrian manuscript. It is now generally admitted that the faint line “over” the word has been added by some later hand………..

    Devo, the proof is in the pudding, as they say.  Do you not realize how many TRINITARIAN translations exist today?  (Pretty much all of the recent English Bibles, except for the NWT, were translated by admitted Trinitarians.)  Could you tell me why these more recent Trinitarian translators, who go out of their way to give the scriptures a Trinitarian slant on each and every verse they can, do NOT have “God” in 1 Tim 3:16?

    Think about that while you're reading the info I linked you to………. the info from 25 TRINITARIAN scholars that lists the overwhelming amount of internal and external evidence against the “God” translation of 1 Tim 3:16.

    There is a reason the Trinitarians no longer use the “God” translation that they would dearly love to use, Devo.  What do you suppose that reason is?

    #308582
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Devolution @ Aug. 08 2012,07:05)
    The New World Translation was produced by the New World Bible Translation Committee, formed in 1947……………………..


    This discussion isn't about the NWT, Devo. BUT, there is a thread Kangaroo Jack started here called “Blatant Corruption in the NWT”.

    I have an ongoing challenge on that thread for anyone to show a verse in the NWT that is “blatantly corrupted” by the translators. Perhaps I'll be seeing you there?

    #308584
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2012,13:26)
    Mike,

    I do not think you are understanding me. When a person states “you are my lord” they are making a declaration. When they state “my lord” they are calling them by the title “my lord”.


    I was understanding you, it's just that it now seems we have different understandings of “making a declaration”. Perhaps yours is officially right, but I think that calling you “my friend and peer” is “DECLARING” you to be my friend and peer.

    Anyway, now that I know what you're saying, how does the absence of “thou art” in 20:28 mean Thomas was NOT calling Jesus “my Lord and my God”? (Happy jammin? I capped them just for you.)

    #308616
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Yahshua is Called “God”

    Jn 20:28 Thomas answered and said unto him, My Master and my God.

    The English word “God,” is derived in the OT from the Hebrew “elohim,” and in the NT from the Greek “theos.”

    #430  ‘elohiym; KJV – God 2346, god 244, judge 5, GOD 1, goddess 2, great 2, mighty 2, angels 1, exceeding 1, godly 1; total 2606; Definition: rulers, judges, divine ones, angels, gods or god, the (true) God.
    #2316 theos; KJV – God 1320, god 13, godly 3, God-ward + 4214 2, misc 5; total 1343; Definition: a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities, spoken of the only and true God, refers to the things of God, of magistrates and judges.

    As you can see by the definitions above the words “elohim” or “theos” do not solely apply only to the Father and the Son but can be given to angels, judges, rulers or any great or mighty person. Satan is termed god in 2Co 4:4, and the belly in Phil 3:19 as is Herod in Act 12:22. In Jn 10:34 Yahshua uses Ps.82:6 to counter the Jews charge, “That thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Yahshua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?  If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken” (Jn 10:33-35). Elohim merely means a great or mighty one (see also Ex 22:9 & 28) and can certainly be applied to Yahshua, but the error takes place when Yahshua is classified as the one true “God,” the Almighty. Two verses clearly prove beyond a doubt that the Son is not the One True Almighty God, one spoken by Yahshua, the other by Paul.

    Jn.17:3; “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee (Yahweh the Father vs. 1) the only true God, and Yahshua Messiah, whom thou hast sent.”
    1Cor.8: 4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Master Yahshua Messiah, by whom are all things, and we by him.
    SOURCE

    Did Thomas Call Yahshua “God”?

    #308621
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Thomas 'Sees' God
    by Phil Maxwell 11/25/02

    To the question, would I say to Yahshua, as Thomas said, “my Lord and my God?”, I must answer no, at least not without further qualification, which I'll explain.

    When Thomas said this, no one would have even imagined that Yahshua was Himself the invisible, Almighty God, who He declared over and over again was His Father.  He even said that His Father was the ONLY true God (Jn 17:3), eliminating from all consideration what has SINCE become a virtual assumption on the part of most Christians.  In other words, there was no reason for Thomas, Yahshua, or John to qualify the meaning of Thomas’ words to NOT mean that Yahshua was God Himself.  People don’t qualify their words without a reason to believe they might be misunderstood. To read theological assumptions into words that didn’t and wouldn’t have been thought at the time is fallacious.  To then argue that those words prove the same theological assumptions is circular reasoning.

    The strictly monotheistic Jews of that culture would never have thought the invisible God of Creation was a man, or that a man was the God of Creation.  That Yahshua was a man was assumed, and that necessarily excluded any thought that He was God in the minds of those involved in the conversation recorded in John 20.  There was a lot of confusion over His true identity and relationship with the Father, but not over whether or not He was God (that came quite a while later):

       Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He began asking His disciples, saying, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” And Simon Peter answered and said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.” Mt 16:14-17

    Of course, these are different times. Now, when people are asked the same question, the answer comes back like, ‘God the Son, the God-man, the second person of the triune God, etc.’  (Of course, I still answer, that He is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and figure that if this knowledge is a blessing from the Father in heaven that the Church would be built upon and stand against the gates of hell, then it’s good enough for both the Father and His Son, whether it’s a good enough answer for men or not.)   The general population is still completely confused over who (and now, what) Yahshua is, but in different ways.  This provides a reason to qualify Thomas’ words that didn’t exist 2,000 years ago, just as the deity of Christ and trinity doctrines didn’t exist then.  Now, my testimony, in contrast to Thomas’, would be more aptly stated ‘My Lord and my God who is in you.’

    Knowing that people have a problem with this, let me explain why it is appropriate to address God IN Christ while distinguishing between the two.  It follows a pattern long before established regarding the places where Yahweh had chosen to place His name.

    First, consider Yahweh’s instruction to Moses:

       Then Yahweh said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven. 'You shall not make other gods besides Me; gods of silver or gods of gold, you shall not make for yourselves. 'You shall make an altar of earth for Me, and you shall sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be remembered, I will come to you and bless you. (Ex 20:22-24)

    [Obviously, they were to worship at the places that Yahweh chose, and in doing so, they were promised His blessing.]

    Then, there was similar commandments and promises given to the next generation:

       When you cross the Jordan and live in the land which Yahweh your God is giving you to inherit, and He gives you rest from all your enemies around you so that you live in security, then it shall come about that the place in which Yahweh your God shall choose for His name to dwell, there you shall bring all that I command you: your burnt offerings and your sacrifices, your tithes and the contribution of your hand, and all your choice votive offerings which you will vow to Yahweh. And you shall rejoice before Yahweh your God, you and your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, and the Levite who is within your gates, since he has no portion or inheritance with you. Be careful that you do not offer your burnt offerings in every cultic place you see, but in the place which Yahweh chooses in one of your tribes, there you shall offer your burnt offerings, and there you shall do all that I command you. (Dt 12:10-14)

    [Obviously, the invisible God Almighty has always made a point of the fact that He reserves the right to establish the place He is to be worshipped.]

    Then we see the same pattern with regard to Solomon’s temple:

       'Since the day that I brought My people from the land of Egypt, I did not choose a city out of all the tribes of Israel in which to build a house that My name might be there, nor did I choose any man for a leader over My people Israel; but I have chosen Jerusalem that My name might be there, and I have chosen David to be over My people Israel.' (2 Ch 6:5-6)

       For now I have chosen and consecrated this house that My name may be there forever, and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually. (2 Ch 7:16)

    [Of course, now we know that Yahshua Himself has been made the King over Yahweh’s people and Chief Cornerstone of Yahweh’s house of living stones.]

       “Yet have regard to the prayer of Thy servant and to his supplication, O Yahweh my God, to listen to the cry and to the prayer which Thy servant prays before Thee today; that Thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, toward the place of which Thou hast said, 'My name shall be there,' to listen to the prayer which Thy servant shall pray toward this place. …And the LORD said to him, “I have heard your prayer and your supplication, which you have made before Me; I have consecrated this house which you have built by putting My name there forever, and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually. (1 Ki 8:28-29, 9:3)

       Now when Daniel knew that the document was signed, he entered his house (now in his roof chamber he had windows open toward Jerusalem); and he continued kneeling on his knees three times a day, praying and giving thanks before his God, as he had been doing previously. (Da 6:10)

    [Daniel was thrown into the lion’s den and miraculously delivered for this.]

    This clear pattern continued with Yahshua, being testified plainly by His resurrection that He was the “place” Yahweh had chosen to place His name, where His eyes and His Heart would be perpetually.  Just as promised regarding these other places, Yahweh will here prayers and supplications directed TO Him towards Yahshua, and bless those who so direct their worship of Him.

       Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews therefore said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” But He was speaking of the temple of His body. When therefore He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture, and the word which Jesus had spoken. (Jn 2:19-22)

    So, getting back to the point, I have no problem turning to Yahshua, my Lord, to offer my prayers and supplications offered to His Father and my Father, His God and my God, just like Thomas did, once he came to believe that Yahshua was, in fact, the temple Yahweh had chosen to dwell in. But I won’t say,
    “my Lord and my God” without qualifying the difference between the temple and He who dwells within amongst people I know would assume there is no difference.   The Jews of two millennia ago didn't need to be told that God is not, never has been, and never will be a man, as the people of this generation do.   Neither did they have any confusion over the difference between Yahweh and His temple, though they did struggle to grasp the revelation that the man Yahshua was both the one Yahweh had appointed King over His people and the Chief Cornerstone of His temple.

    How we can expect to be joined to the temple as Yahweh intends while refusing to acknowledge the difference between His temple and His person.  The natural conclusion of this error would be to assume ourselves, as living stones in Yahweh's temple, also to be God.  Such a mindset clearly represents the heart, mind, and ambitions of Satan and his children, not the children of the one true God.  In the end, Yahweh will bring upon the head of those who serve the devil exactly what they try to force upon His own children.  Obviously, the blessing of being the temple of the living God was never intended to rest solely upon the man Yahshua:

       'Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie– behold, I will make them to come and bow down at your feet, and to know that I have loved you. …'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. (Rev 3:9,12)
    [ARCHIVED] SOURCE

    Did Thomas Call Yahshua “God”?

    #308631
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Devolution @ Aug. 09 2012,00:21)
    © 2001 by David W. Daniels

    Question: Isn't it true that the King James Bible was translated by only half a dozen manuscripts, and that none of them was earlier than the 10th century (900s) AD?

    Answer: This is true, but it misses an important point. It is true that the manuscripts used were copies of copies of copies written over many centuries. These “new” Greek manuscripts match up with over 5,700 others, some just as old as those from Alexandria, Egypt. Over 99% of the manuscripts we have found, ancient and modern, show an amazing agreement with each other. This is a testimony to God's preservation of His words!

    Contrast this to the Alexandrian writings, used by the Roman Catholic institution and almost all “modern scholars.” The only 45 manuscripts called “Alexandrian,” many copied in the same school, not only do not agree with the vast majority, but they do not match up with each other!

    But God's preserved words, descended from the apostles and sent from Antioch (Acts 11:26), were so important to the true Christians that they continued to be accurately copied century after century!

    How important could the Alexandrian writings be, if these “scholars” could not even get together one clear Bible?

    God preserved His words. The King James Bible is the accurate and complete translation of them, from Greek in Antioch of Syria into the English language.
    ===============================================
    © 2001 by David W. Daniels

    Question: What was the method the King James translators used to translate the Bible?

    Answer: King James had no part whatsoever in the translation of the Bible that now bears his name. But there were 47-54 scholars, however, whom God used to bring us His preserved words in English.

    Translating the Authorized Version

    54 scholars were appointed in 1604, and a few overseers were also present, who went from group to group. In time through death the number of translators diminished to 47. They were given three locations to work: Oxford, Cambridge and Westminster. And two groups worked at each location, making a total of six groups. The Bible was also divided up into six sections. Each group took one section, working on one book at a time.

    First, each translator made his own translation of the book, which was reviewed by each other member of the group. Then the whole group reviewed the book. When they all agreed on the translation, they sent it to the other five groups for evaluation. Those groups then returned it to the original committee, marking anything they disagreed with. The original group would then go over the book again.

    When all six committees finished with the book, it was sent, with any differences that were left, to a special committee made up of one leader from each of the six groups. They solved any remaining problems, and the book was sent to the printers.

    But they did not work in secret, as did the “Revisers” in 1871 – 1881. At any time, the translators could ask an outside scholar for his understanding, and anyone could find out about the progress. The churches were kept informed at all times1.

    In all, every single verse of the Bible was carefully examined and decided upon a total of fourteen times, by as many as 50 or more people! This made it impossible for any one translator to impose his personal viewpoint on a passage. He had to have logical reasons for a translation that were good enough to persuade every other scholar before it could be written into the text. There was no “private interpretation” here!
    (2 Peter 1:20-21)

    Footnotes

    1 Even liberal author Hannah O’Brien Chaplin Conant admitted this kind of “open” process was unlike any translation before and contributed to its genius. See The English Bible: History of the Translation of the Holy Scriptures into English (London: Trübner & Co., 1856), pp. 433 (note Translator’s Rules #11 & #12), 437-39. Available at http://www.books.google.com.

    ===============================================


    Nice procedures of translation from original manuscript of the holy scriptures to English (KJV 1604 A.D.)

    What is the belief of all the translators regarding Jesus Christ. Truly God?

    Do not forget that only in the Council of Nicea 325 A.D. that Jesus Christ, the begotten Son of God, is “truly God” and has been approved as an official dogma.

    Who will counter among the translator if the majority of the translators have agreed to translate the words “as God, with relation to Jesus Christ scriptural passages?

    All the translators “must be independent” and should not be influenced with their present beliefs during the moment of their translating the very important documents. Who know's?

    Peace. ???

    #308633
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 09 2012,13:06)
    Thomas 'Sees' God
    by Phil Maxwell 11/25/02

    To the question, would I say to Yahshua, as Thomas said, “my Lord and my God?”, I must answer no, at least not without further qualification, which I'll explain.

    When Thomas said this, no one would have even imagined that Yahshua was Himself the invisible, Almighty God, who He declared over and over again was His Father.  He even said that His Father was the ONLY true God (Jn 17:3), eliminating from all consideration what has SINCE become a virtual assumption on the part of most Christians.  In other words, there was no reason for Thomas, Yahshua, or John to qualify the meaning of Thomas’ words to NOT mean that Yahshua was God Himself.  People don’t qualify their words without a reason to believe they might be misunderstood. To read theological assumptions into words that didn’t and wouldn’t have been thought at the time is fallacious.  To then argue that those words prove the same theological assumptions is circular reasoning.

    The strictly monotheistic Jews of that culture would never have thought the invisible God of Creation was a man, or that a man was the God of Creation.  That Yahshua was a man was assumed, and that necessarily excluded any thought that He was God in the minds of those involved in the conversation recorded in John 20.  There was a lot of confusion over His true identity and relationship with the Father, but not over whether or not He was God (that came quite a while later):

       Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He began asking His disciples, saying, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” And Simon Peter answered and said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.” Mt 16:14-17

    Of course, these are different times. Now, when people are asked the same question, the answer comes back like, ‘God the Son, the God-man, the second person of the triune God, etc.’  (Of course, I still answer, that He is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and figure that if this knowledge is a blessing from the Father in heaven that the Church would be built upon and stand against the gates of hell, then it’s good enough for both the Father and His Son, whether it’s a good enough answer for men or not.)   The general population is still completely confused over who (and now, what) Yahshua is, but in different ways.  This provides a reason to qualify Thomas’ words that didn’t exist 2,000 years ago, just as the deity of Christ and trinity doctrines didn’t exist then.  Now, my testimony, in contrast to Thomas’, would be more aptly stated ‘My Lord and my God who is in you.’

    Knowing that people have a problem with this, let me explain why it is appropriate to address God IN Christ while distinguishing between the two.  It follows a pattern long before established regarding the places where Yahweh had chosen to place His name.

    First, consider Yahweh’s instruction to Moses:

       Then Yahweh said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven. 'You shall not make other gods besides Me; gods of silver or gods of gold, you shall not make for yourselves. 'You shall make an altar of earth for Me, and you shall sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be remembered, I will come to you and bless you. (Ex 20:22-24)

    [Obviously, they were to worship at the places that Yahweh chose, and in doing so, they were promised His blessing.]

    Then, there was similar commandments and promises given to the next generation:

       When you cross the Jordan and live in the land which Yahweh your God is giving you to inherit, and He gives you rest from all your enemies around you so that you live in security, then it shall come about that the place in which Yahweh your God shall choose for His name to dwell, there you shall bring all that I command you: your burnt offerings and your sacrifices, your tithes and the contribution of your hand, and all your choice votive offerings which you will vow to Yahweh. And you shall rejoice before Yahweh your God, you and your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, and the Levite who is within your gates, since he has no portion or inheritance with you. Be careful that you do not offer your burnt offerings in every cultic place you see, but in the place which Yahweh chooses in one of your tribes, there you shall offer your burnt offerings, and there you shall do all that I command you. (Dt 12:10-14)

    [Obviously, the invisible God Almighty has always made a point of the fact that He reserves the right to establish the place He is to be worshipped.]

    Then we see the same pattern with regard to Solomon’s temple:

       'Since the day that I brought My people from the land of Egypt, I did not choose a city out of all the tribes of Israel in which to build a house that My name might be there, nor did I choose any man for a leader over My people Israel; but I have chosen Jerusalem that My name might be there, and I have chosen David to be over My people Israel.' (2 Ch 6:5-6)

       For now I have chosen and consecrated this house that My name may be there forever, and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually. (2 Ch 7:16)

    [Of course, now we know that Yahshua Himself has been made the King over Yahweh’s people and Chief Cornerstone of Yahweh’s house of living stones.]

       “Yet have regard to the prayer of Thy servant and to his supplication, O Yahweh my God, to listen to the cry and to the prayer which Thy servant prays before Thee today; that Thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, toward the place of which Thou hast said, 'My name shall be there,' to listen to the prayer which Thy servant shall pray toward this place. …And the LORD said to him, “I have heard your prayer and your supplication, which you have made before Me; I have consecrated this house which you have built by putting My name there forever, and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually. (1 Ki 8:28-29, 9:3)

       Now when Daniel knew that the document was signed, he entered his house (now in his roof chamber he had windows open toward Jerusalem); and he continued kneeling on his knees three times a day, praying and giving thanks before his God, as he had been doing previously. (Da 6:10)

    [Daniel was thrown into the lion’s den and miraculously delivered for this.]

    This clear pattern continued with Yahshua, being testified plainly by His resurrection that He was the “place” Yahweh had chosen to place His name, where His eyes and His Heart would be perpetually.  Just as promised regarding these other places, Yahweh will here prayers and supplications directed TO Him towards Yahshua, and bless those who so direct their worship of Him.

       Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews therefore said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” But He was speaking of the temple of His body. When therefore He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture, and the word which Jesus had spoken. (Jn 2:19-22)

    So, getting back to the point, I have no problem turning to Yahshua, my Lord
    , to offer my prayers and supplications offered to His Father and my Father, His God and my God, just like Thomas did, once he came to believe that Yahshua was, in fact, the temple Yahweh had chosen to dwell in. But I won’t say, “my Lord and my God” without qualifying the difference between the temple and He who dwells within amongst people I know would assume there is no difference.   The Jews of two millennia ago didn't need to be told that God is not, never has been, and never will be a man, as the people of this generation do.   Neither did they have any confusion over the difference between Yahweh and His temple, though they did struggle to grasp the revelation that the man Yahshua was both the one Yahweh had appointed King over His people and the Chief Cornerstone of His temple.

    How we can expect to be joined to the temple as Yahweh intends while refusing to acknowledge the difference between His temple and His person.  The natural conclusion of this error would be to assume ourselves, as living stones in Yahweh's temple, also to be God.  Such a mindset clearly represents the heart, mind, and ambitions of Satan and his children, not the children of the one true God.  In the end, Yahweh will bring upon the head of those who serve the devil exactly what they try to force upon His own children.  Obviously, the blessing of being the temple of the living God was never intended to rest solely upon the man Yahshua:

       'Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie– behold, I will make them to come and bow down at your feet, and to know that I have loved you. …'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. (Rev 3:9,12)
    [ARCHIVED] SOURCE

    Did Thomas Call Yahshua “God”?


    Well said

    #308646
    jammin
    Participant

    limjunus,

    you want me to answer your question but you are not answering mine.
    you said your father is truly human.
    my question is , are you truly human just like your father?yes or no?

    mike,
    are you truly human just like your father?
    yes or no?

    #308657
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 09 2012,08:58)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 08 2012,00:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2012,08:24)
     And I find no scripture that says we too will become Gods.


    Mike,

    We will become God's family but not we will become Gods! :D


    Right.  But apparently the Trinitarians don't think about the fact that some of us will become SONS to God, and BROTHERS to Jesus.

    Surely that, in and of itself, shows that Jesus is not God.  I guess they think they will become BROTHERS to God Almighty.  ???


    Hmmm,

    Well, since Mike believes that Yahshua was “a god” and emptied himself of being “a god” and then became “a god” again and believes that we can become his brothers, then would that also make us “gods”? LOL!

    #308660
    terraricca
    Participant

    f

    Quote
    Hmmm,

    Well, since Mike believes that Yahshua was “a god” and emptied himself of being “a god” and then became “a god” again and believes that we can become his brothers, then would that also make us “gods”? LOL!

    thats what scriptures are saying about the 144k NOW IF YOU WOULD BE ONE OF THEM THAT I CAN NOT ANSWER THIS IS TO GOD ALMIGHTY TO SAY,

    #308663
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 09 2012,08:24)
    mike,
    are you truly human just like your father?
    yes or no?


    Sorry jammin,

    I forgot about this question yesterday. YES, I am truly human just like my (earthly) father is.

    #308664
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 09 2012,13:59)
    Well, since Mike believes that Yahshua was “a god” and emptied himself of being “a god” and then became “a god” again and believes that we can become his brothers, then would that also make us “gods”?


    That sounds about right, Frank. Those of us who are called to live in heaven with Jesus will be like the angels, who, scripturally speaking, are gods.

    But Jesus and the other angels of God are not THE God who created the heavens and the earth, and neither will any of us be.

    #308670
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 10 2012,08:41)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 09 2012,08:24)
    mike,
    are you truly human just like your father?
    yes or no?


    Sorry jammin,

    I forgot about this question yesterday.  YES, I am truly human just like my (earthly) father is.


    you agree that your father is truly human
    you agree that you and your father HAVE the same nature and that is your human nature.
    you agree that you are also truly human just like your father.

    therefore,

    Christ is truly God just like his father
    christ and his father have the same nature.
    the father is truly God. the son is truly God by nature.

    thanks for your answer
    case closed

    #308671
    Ed J
    Participant

    Case re-opened

    Do we become “God by nature” too? (2Peter 1:4)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #308673
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 10 2012,08:52)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 09 2012,13:59)
    Well, since Mike believes that Yahshua was “a god” and emptied himself of being “a god” and then became “a god” again and believes that we can become his brothers, then would that also make us “gods”?


    That sounds about right, Frank.  Those of us who are called to live in heaven with Jesus will be like the angels, who, scripturally speaking, are gods.

    But Jesus and the other angels of God are not THE God who created the heavens and the earth, and neither will any of us be.


    Sounds much like the deceptive lie that was told to Adam and Eve by Satan himself!

    But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, Yahweh has said, You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die. And the serpent [Satan (Revelation 12:9)] said unto the woman, You shall not die: For Yahweh knows that when you eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be like gods, knowing what is righteous and what is evil (Genesis 3:3-5).

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

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