John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 9,181 through 9,200 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #308208
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 05 2012,23:06)
    I will not deal with Jammin, any more except he will answer the existing questions of mine. He could not find the rightful answers, that's why he just ignore it. How come he has a gut to join with this discussion if he has not fully equip with the truth about God?

    Peace> :D ??? :D :(


    limjunus,

    i already answered your questions. in fact, your NLT did not support your illusion that Christ is not God. why?

    let me post phil 2.6 of NLT

    Philippians 2:6

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,
       he did not think of equality with God
       as something to cling to.

    Christ is God accrding to your favorite version NLT

    you need to study hard and take more vitamins.

    better luck next time boy

    #308209
    jammin
    Participant

    journey,

    that is what the bible says. Christ is God.
    phil 2.6 says that he was in the form of God, meaning he was GOD by nature

    Philippians 2:6

    Good News Translation (GNT)

    6 He always had the nature of God,
    but he did not think that by force he should try to remain[a] equal with God.

    Geneva Study Bible

    Who, being in the {d} form of God, {e} thought it not robbery to be {f} equal with God:

    (d) Such as God himself is, and therefore God, for there is no one in all parts equal to God but God himself.

    (e) Christ, that glorious and everlasting God, knew that he might rightfully and lawfully not appear in the base flesh of man, but remain with majesty fit for God: yet he chose rather to debase himself.

    (f) If the Son is equal with the Father, then is there of necessity an equality, which Arrius that heretic denies: and if the Son is compared to the Father, then is there a distinction of persons, which Sabellius that heretic denies.

    #308210
    jammin
    Participant

    limjunus said:
    I had my explanation why I said that the verse is equal with the OMG! do not divert the issue Jammin. I did not said that there is a translation of John 20:28 “OH MY GOD!”

    ———-
    therefore you admit that it is just your illusion. LOL

    study hard boy

    #308211
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 02 2012,16:50)
    Now, Jammin has a gut to force me to answer his question and forgotten himself to answer mine.

    Here is Jammin post with question: “limjunus, you did not answer my question. ill repeat, do you believe the words of thomas to jesus?  yes or no?     MY ANSWER IS NO WITH YOUR TWISTING CONCLUSION.

    Limjunus respond: Jammin, do not force me to agree with your own understanding  and conclusion.  Thomas, did not address his saying to Jesus, but instead Thomas, is indirectly uttering that words as “MY LORD AND MY GOD! (OMG!) with his extremely sudden emotion and showing his complete guiltiness in opposing the doctrine of “resurrection”, a fundamental teaching of Jesus …. and the issue with Thomas, is not who is the one and only true God?  Thomas had knew it in the first place in John 17:1-3 and John 20:17.

    The issue with Thomas and that event is, did Jesus, really had raised from the dead by God? Thomas really do not believe with the resurrection doctrines” unless he could see, Jesus in person and the touch by his hands the implicated wounds.  When Jesus, personally proven the “resurrection doctrine” by himself, Thomas, shocked and extremely shouted “MY LORD MY GOD! as OMG!

    Try to read this again Jammin: “Here is the verse you are relying to:  John 20:28 “Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” and your conclusion with it is, Jesus Christ is the Lord and God addressing to by Thomas?

    and here is the truth I am relying to: ” John 20:17 with the same version: “John 20:17
    New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

    17. Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me. I have not yet returned to the Father. Instead, go to those who believe in me. Tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' “[U]

    Jammin, take note,  Jesus Christ is now spoken and addressing and pin-pointing-out that the One and only true God is his Father in heaven; clarifying, Thomas, that the Lord and God he had mentioned is for their Father and not to Jesus Christ, disregarding and removing your own conclusion with an indicator of false doctrine due with it's contradictory teaching.

    Conclusion  by Jammin with contradicting teaching: ” Thomas said that Jesus Christ is truly Lord and God and Jesus Christ opposing Jammin conclusion with John 20:28 by proclaiming that his Father is the One and only true God (John 20:17)

    Conclusion by limjunus without contradicting teaching: Thomas is addressing the Father directly and not Jesus Christ,… because Jesus Christ had informed already his disciples before the event that the One and only true God, is his Father and their Father, his God and their God  John 17:1-3 / 20:17

    So, Jammin “The freedom of choice is a freedom of taste”  chose the contradicting teaching or without contradicting teaching?

    Peace! ??? :D


    Quote
    and here is the truth I am relying to: ” John 20:17 with the same version:

    Limjunus,

    Permit me to interpret John 20:17 :

    First I would like to say that KJV ,and other bibles, used the word ASCEND not return, which completely deviates believers.

    Hereunder is a definition  of the word ascend, and it is placed in the third place, on the free dictionary.

    By using the word returning, it is confirming that Jesus had to go to His Father IN THE SEVENTH HEAVEN to verify to Him His glorification, or promote him officially, otherwise He would not be fully glorified. Which to me is nonsense, for the simple reason that the Father Himself through the Holy Spirit raised Jesus, and don’t tell me that Almighty God needed to see His son, for something. He wouldn’t be ALMIGHTY AT ALL, WOULDN’T HE??

    SO AGAIN NONSENSE!!!

    So  this is a Definition which you should also consider in order to be able to assert YOURSELF that you are relying ON THE TRUTH:

    ASCEND:

    [b]3. To rise from a lower level or station; advance: ascended from poverty to great wealth; ascend to the throne.

    The BOULD are the ones which are the appropriate to be used in this context, for the simple reason, that they are referring to an advancement from a particular  LOW STATE to a higher ,OR HIGHEST STATE.

    Something which Jesus  had accomplished then !!

    Also the word  “TO” referring to:

    Strong’s concordance under:

    Word studies:

    It says that it could mean

    [4314 (prós) can mean “in view of,” or “in light of,

    Now to verse 20:17

    saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Jesus' first words were saith unto her, Touch me not

    Why did Jesus refused to be touched?

    Why didn't He waited longer in order to be touched???

    Also  a few hours later He Himself entered the  apostles’ locked place and placed Himself in the midst of them??? (John 20:19:22)

    Leave that for the time being, let’s carry on!!!

    The next part it says:

    for I am not yet ascended to my Father:

    So, my interpretation IN RESPECT Of the word ASCEND ,defined  RAISE TO THE HIGHEST STATE and ,IN VIEW OF with regards to the word “TO”

    SHOULD BE INTERPRETED:

    I am not yet ascended to( IN THE HIGHEST STATE IN VIEW OF)  my Father. Which means that He Was just been resurrected and He is only in the STATE of the SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY. THE NEW ADAM!!!

    WITHOUT ANY POWER, JUST A GLORIFIED BODY ONLY.

    A NORMAL HUMAN BEING STATE,BUT GLORIFIED.

    I would like to add, that ADAM TO BE , was also dead before he was created, but through extinction in the NORMAL process of nature as AN EVIL BEAST BEING,(LUCIFER’S SPIRIT) God then TRANSFORMED HIM, recreated him as THE FIRST CARNAL BEING!! MAN!!, and gave him the FIRST SOUL( JESUS’SPIRIT SUBSTANCE) DEMONSTRATED LOVE.
    LOVE YOUR ENEMY!

    So for a particular reason, temporary, He needed more time to become in the full highest state, in the power of the Father. So MOST LIKELY  Jesus, in order to shed LIGHT regarding the process of His glorification, He showed Himself primature,purposely to Magdalene. and prevented her to touch Him, first by not letting her recognize Him, and then by telling her not to touch Him. This presumably  was more for her sake rather ,since she was a mortal person ,and it would have been of a detriment to her.  

    Now Jesus continued and said:

    but go to my brethren,.

    NOTICE:

    He continued  with the word BUT, this made one aware that she couldn't touch Him then, in that moment in time, BUT later on, ALL would be able to!!

    SO HE INSTRUCTED HER   “GO TO MY  BRETHREN”, NOW I feel that even the fact that He said “brethren”, it was only to indicate that  he was only in His soul and flesh glorified body yet, LIKE HOW ALL OF US WOULD EVENTUALLY BE ON THE LAST DAY. So Jesus through this statement made us aware that we will be raised like HIM since He used the word Brethren. This also was  the lowest state that Jesus was raised in, but as we could see at the end HE CONFIRMED THAT LATE
    R HE WOULD ASCEND TO THE HIGHEST STATE OF THE FATHER through the insertion of the HOLY SPIRIT.

    BUT WHY??  WHAT WAS THERE THAT PREVENTED JESUS FROM BEING FULLY IN THE POWER OF THE FATHER  AS WELL???

    Now IN VIEW OF THAT ,I would be posting another, unless any of you is ready to have a go!!!!

    NOW, WE COME TO THE CONTROVERSIAL CONCLUSION:

     and say unto them I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God

    With the above statement therefore Jesus has confirmed this:

    In respect to the definition of ASCEND, and TO :

    This would be interpreted as:

    AND SAY UNTO THEM:I (ascend) REACH the HIGHEST STATE, (to) IN VIEW OF. My Father and your Father, OBVIOUS SINCE HE  WAS ONLY GLORIFIED AS A HUMAN BEING,AND LATER HE WOULD BE  GLORIFIED IN HIS FATHER .SO HE WOULD BE THEIR FATHER, AS THE FATHER IS TO HIM,since without  Him THEY wouldn't have a Father GOD,SINCE HE AS MAN WOULD BE  UNITED AS ONE  WITH THE FATHER. AS SOON AS THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT ENTERS HIS SOUL.
    He concluded
    And IN VIEW OF my God, and your God, SO: AGAIN, ALSO OBVIOUS IN THE SAME WAY JESUS WOULD BE GLORIFIED IN GOD, THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT,HE WOULD BE  OUR GOD AS GOD  IS TO HIM, SINCE HE AS MAN WOULD BE UNITED AS ONE WITH GOD.

    SO JESUS CHRIST IS:

    GOD,FATHER,SON, AND BROTHER TO ALL OF US.WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT!! ALL IN HIM,ALL BY HIM,AND ALL FOR HIM

    And became the TRUE GOD BOTH OF THE HEAVENS AND OF THE EARTH,BOTH OF THE SPIRITS AND OF THE FLESH. BOTH OF THE INVISIBLES AND VISIBLES, BOTH OF THE IMMORTALS AND MORTALS, BOTH OF THE HOLIES AND OF THE SINNERS.

    ONLY IN JESUS GOD COULD BE TRUELY MANIFESTED IN OUR CREATION.

    In that moment that this statement was pronounced by Jesus ,the Father from heaven was in His Highest Joy ever, for the simple reason that God waited millions, millions, and millions of millions of years to achieve MANHOOD.

    God from Exodus 29:45  to Luke 1: 16 kept on saying I WILL BE THEIR GOD.

    I WILL BE THEIR GOD, IN THEIR FLESH, IN THEIR GENERAL STATE,EVEN COMPLETELY THE MOST SINNER,AND DIE FOR THEM IN ORDER TO BE THEIR GOD FOR THEM IN MY OWN SUBSTANCE OF MY SON.

    THE ONLY WAY TO BE!! ALPHA AND OMEGA THE TRUE GOD!!!

    AND THE FATHER ACQUIRED FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER HIS OWN UNIQUE GOD, A GOD OF FLESH AND SPIRIT,TO RULE BOTH HEAVEN AND EARTH TILL THE END OF TIME.

    HEBREWS 1:8 But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    9 Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS THE TRUE GOD.

    CHARLES

    #308213
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 06 2012,00:30)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 05 2012,23:06)
    I will not deal with Jammin, any more except he will answer the existing questions of mine. He could not find the rightful answers, that's why he just ignore it. How come he has a gut to join with this discussion if he has not fully equip with the truth about God?

    Peace> :D ??? :D :(


    limjunus,

    i already answered your questions. in fact, your NLT did not support your illusion that Christ is not God. why?

    let me post phil 2.6 of NLT

    Philippians 2:6

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,
       he did not think of equality with God
       as something to cling to.

    Christ is God accrding to your favorite version NLT

    you need to study hard and take more vitamins.

    better luck next time boy


    YOU DID NOT ANSWER JAMMIN, UP THIS TIME.

    1.) WHO SI THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, JESUS CHRIST, THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, OR HIS FATHER WHO HAD BEGOTTEN HIM?

    2.) HOW MANY TRUE GOD YOU HATH RECOGNIZED?

    I did not see your answers, where?

    #308214
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 06 2012,00:51)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 02 2012,16:50)
    Now, Jammin has a gut to force me to answer his question and forgotten himself to answer mine.

    Here is Jammin post with question: “limjunus, you did not answer my question. ill repeat, do you believe the words of thomas to jesus?  yes or no?     MY ANSWER IS NO WITH YOUR TWISTING CONCLUSION.

    Limjunus respond: Jammin, do not force me to agree with your own understanding  and conclusion.  Thomas, did not address his saying to Jesus, but instead Thomas, is indirectly uttering that words as “MY LORD AND MY GOD! (OMG!) with his extremely sudden emotion and showing his complete guiltiness in opposing the doctrine of “resurrection”, a fundamental teaching of Jesus …. and the issue with Thomas, is not who is the one and only true God?  Thomas had knew it in the first place in John 17:1-3 and John 20:17.

    The issue with Thomas and that event is, did Jesus, really had raised from the dead by God? Thomas really do not believe with the resurrection doctrines” unless he could see, Jesus in person and the touch by his hands the implicated wounds.  When Jesus, personally proven the “resurrection doctrine” by himself, Thomas, shocked and extremely shouted “MY LORD MY GOD! as OMG!

    Try to read this again Jammin: “Here is the verse you are relying to:  John 20:28 “Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” and your conclusion with it is, Jesus Christ is the Lord and God addressing to by Thomas?

    and here is the truth I am relying to: ” John 20:17 with the same version: “John 20:17
    New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

    17. Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me. I have not yet returned to the Father. Instead, go to those who believe in me. Tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' “[U]

    Jammin, take note,  Jesus Christ is now spoken and addressing and pin-pointing-out that the One and only true God is his Father in heaven; clarifying, Thomas, that the Lord and God he had mentioned is for their Father and not to Jesus Christ, disregarding and removing your own conclusion with an indicator of false doctrine due with it's contradictory teaching.

    Conclusion  by Jammin with contradicting teaching: ” Thomas said that Jesus Christ is truly Lord and God and Jesus Christ opposing Jammin conclusion with John 20:28 by proclaiming that his Father is the One and only true God (John 20:17)

    Conclusion by limjunus without contradicting teaching: Thomas is addressing the Father directly and not Jesus Christ,… because Jesus Christ had informed already his disciples before the event that the One and only true God, is his Father and their Father, his God and their God  John 17:1-3 / 20:17

    So, Jammin “The freedom of choice is a freedom of taste”  chose the contradicting teaching or without contradicting teaching?

    Peace! ??? :D


    Quote
    and here is the truth I am relying to: ” John 20:17 with the same version:

    Limjunus,

    Permit me to interpret John 20:17 :

    First I would like to say that KJV ,and other bibles, used the word ASCEND not return, which completely deviates believers.

    Hereunder is a definition  of the word ascend, and it is placed in the third place, on the free dictionary.

    By using the word returning, it is confirming that Jesus had to go to His Father IN THE SEVENTH HEAVEN to verify to Him His glorification, or promote him officially, otherwise He would not be fully glorified. Which to me is nonsense, for the simple reason that the Father Himself through the Holy Spirit raised Jesus, and don’t tell me that Almighty God needed to see His son, for something. He wouldn’t be ALMIGHTY AT ALL, WOULDN’T HE??

    SO AGAIN NONSENSE!!!

    So  this is a Definition which you should also consider in order to be able to assert YOURSELF that you are relying ON THE TRUTH:

    ASCEND:

    [b]3. To rise from a lower level or station; [b]advance: ascended from poverty to great wealth; ascend to the throne.

    The BOULD are the ones which are the appropriate to be used in this context, for the simple reason, that they are referring to an advancement from a particular  LOW STATE to a higher ,OR HIGHEST STATE.

    Something which Jesus  had accomplished then !!

    Also the word  “TO” referring to:

    Strong’s concordance under:

    Word studies:

    It says that it could mean

    [4314 (prós) can mean “in view of,” or “in light of,

    Now to verse 20:17

    saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Jesus' first words were saith unto her, Touch me not

    Why did Jesus refused to be touched?

    Why didn't He waited longer in order to be touched???

    Also  a few hours later He Himself entered the  apostles’ locked place and placed Himself in the midst of them??? (John 20:19:22)

    Leave that for the time being, let’s carry on!!!

    The next part it says:

    for I am not yet ascended to my Father:

    So, my interpretation IN RESPECT Of the word ASCEND ,defined  RAISE TO THE HIGHEST STATE and ,IN VIEW OF with regards to the word “TO”

    SHOULD BE INTERPRETED:

    I am not yet ascended to( IN THE HIGHEST STATE IN VIEW OF)  my Father. Which means that He Was just been resurrected and He is only in the STATE of the SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY. THE NEW ADAM!!!

    WITHOUT ANY POWER, JUST A GLORIFIED BODY ONLY.

    A NORMAL HUMAN BEING STATE,BUT GLORIFIED.

    I would like to add, that ADAM TO BE , was also dead before he was created, but through extinction in the NORMAL process of nature as AN EVIL BEAST BEING,(LUCIFER’S SPIRIT) God then TRANSFORMED HIM, recreated him as THE FIRST CARNAL BEING!! MAN!!, and gave him the FIRST SOUL( JESUS’SPIRIT SUBSTANCE) DEMONSTRATED LOVE.
    LOVE YOUR ENEMY!

    So for a particular reason, temporary, He needed more time to become in the full highest state, in the power of the Father. So MOST LIKELY  Jesus, in order to shed LIGHT regarding the process of His glorification, He showed Himself primature,purposely to Magdalene. and prevented her to touch Him, first by not letting her recognize Him, and then by telling her not to touch Him. This presumably  was more for her sake rather ,since she was a mortal person ,and it would have been of a detriment to her.  

    Now Jesus continued and said:

    but go to my brethren,.

    NOTICE:

    He continued  with the word BUT, this made one aware that she couldn't touch Him then, in that moment in time, BUT later on, ALL would be able to!!

    SO HE INSTRUCTED HER   “GO TO MY  BRETHREN”, NOW I feel that even the fact that He said “brethren”, it was only to indicate that  he was only in His soul and flesh glorified body yet, LIKE HOW ALL OF US WOULD EVENTUALLY BE ON THE LAST DAY. So Je
    sus through this statement made us aware that we will be raised like HIM since He used the word Brethren. This also was  the lowest state that Jesus was raised in, but as we could see at the end HE CONFIRMED THAT LATER HE WOULD ASCEND TO THE HIGHEST STATE OF THE FATHER through the insertion of the HOLY SPIRIT.

    BUT WHY??  WHAT WAS THERE THAT PREVENTED JESUS FROM BEING FULLY IN THE POWER OF THE FATHER  AS WELL???

    Now IN VIEW OF THAT ,I would be posting another, unless any of you is ready to have a go!!!!

    NOW, WE COME TO THE CONTROVERSIAL CONCLUSION:

     and say unto them I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God

    With the above statement therefore Jesus has confirmed this:

    In respect to the definition of ASCEND, and TO :

    This would be interpreted as:

    AND SAY UNTO THEM:I (ascend) REACH the HIGHEST STATE, (to) IN VIEW OF. My Father and your Father, OBVIOUS SINCE HE  WAS ONLY GLORIFIED AS A HUMAN BEING,AND LATER HE WOULD BE  GLORIFIED IN HIS FATHER .SO HE WOULD BE THEIR FATHER, AS THE FATHER IS TO HIM,since without  Him THEY wouldn't have a Father GOD,SINCE HE AS MAN WOULD BE  UNITED AS ONE  WITH THE FATHER. AS SOON AS THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT ENTERS HIS SOUL.
    He concluded
    And IN VIEW OF my God, and your God, SO: AGAIN, ALSO OBVIOUS IN THE SAME WAY JESUS WOULD BE GLORIFIED IN GOD, THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT,HE WOULD BE  OUR GOD AS GOD  IS TO HIM, SINCE HE AS MAN WOULD BE UNITED AS ONE WITH GOD.

    SO JESUS CHRIST IS:

    GOD,FATHER,SON, AND BROTHER TO ALL OF US.WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT!! ALL IN HIM,ALL BY HIM,AND ALL FOR HIM

    And became the TRUE GOD BOTH OF THE HEAVENS AND OF THE EARTH,BOTH OF THE SPIRITS AND OF THE FLESH. BOTH OF THE INVISIBLES AND VISIBLES, BOTH OF THE IMMORTALS AND MORTALS, BOTH OF THE HOLIES AND OF THE SINNERS.

    ONLY IN JESUS GOD COULD BE TRUELY MANIFESTED IN OUR CREATION.

    In that moment that this statement was pronounced by Jesus ,the Father from heaven was in His Highest Joy ever, for the simple reason that God waited millions, millions, and millions of millions of years to achieve MANHOOD.

    God from Exodus 29:45  to Luke 1: 16 kept on saying I WILL BE THEIR GOD.

    I WILL BE THEIR GOD, IN THEIR FLESH, IN THEIR GENERAL STATE,EVEN COMPLETELY THE MOST SINNER,AND DIE FOR THEM IN ORDER TO BE THEIR GOD FOR THEM IN MY OWN SUBSTANCE OF MY SON.

    THE ONLY WAY TO BE!! ALPHA AND OMEGA THE TRUE GOD!!!

    AND THE FATHER ACQUIRED FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER HIS OWN UNIQUE GOD, A GOD OF FLESH AND SPIRIT,TO RULE BOTH HEAVEN AND EARTH TILL THE END OF TIME.

    HEBREWS 1:8 But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    9 Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS THE TRUE GOD.

    CHARLES


    :given your own conclusion. Jesus ascending to my Father,.. is mean to you that from human being into a Supreme being? If Jesus Christ is truly God, why need to be changed from truly God into truly God?

    another confusion is, “if the begotten Son is truly God, why changing from Son God into a Father God?

    Another confusion you have made is, “If Jesus Christ is truly God, who is the flesh and died?

    Wow! ???

    #308215
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 06 2012,00:39)
    journey,

    that is what the bible says. Christ is God.
    phil 2.6 says that he was in the form of God, meaning he was GOD by nature

    Philippians 2:6

    Good News Translation (GNT)

    6 He always had the nature of God,
         but he did not think that by force he should try to remain[a] equal with God.

    Geneva Study Bible

    Who, being in the {d} form of God, {e} thought it not robbery to be {f} equal with God:

    (d) Such as God himself is, and therefore God, for there is no one in all parts equal to God but God himself.

    (e) Christ, that glorious and everlasting God, knew that he might rightfully and lawfully not appear in the base flesh of man, but remain with majesty fit for God: yet he chose rather to debase himself.

    (f) If the Son is equal with the Father, then is there of necessity an equality, which Arrius that heretic denies: and if the Son is compared to the Father, then is there a distinction of persons, which Sabellius that heretic denies.


    Jammin

    Did you understand what I said to you?
    The bible does not say Christ is God.
    Your bible says that?
    The good news translation is the same – revised, reworded
    The Geneva study bible, is mens footnotes in there,
    am I correct?
    Theres so many versions, take your pick
    Why don't you go to the original most trusted Word of God?
    The King James Version

    #308216
    carmel
    Participant

    [/quote]

    Quote
    “If the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you,
    he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your
    mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you

    Edj,

    YOUR WISDOM IS SURELY CORRUPTED,FILTHY,WORLDY AND MOST OF ALL HUMILIATING TO GOD HIMSELF.

    WHY??

    YOU HAVE JUST SAID THAT THE SAME SPIRIT WHICH QUICKEN CHRIST WOULD ALSO QUICHEN MINE.

    BY ALL MEANS,I HAVE NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT,THAT'S WHY JESUS CAME.

    BUT WHY JESUS HAD TO WAIT,OR RATHER GOD THE FATHER HAD TO WAIT ALL THESE BILLIONS IF NOT TRILLIONS,IF WE HAD TO START FROM  WHEN GOD WAS IN HIS GLORY ,TO ACHIEVE A HUMAN PERSON LIKE JESUS IN ORDER TO HAVE GOD'S SPIRIT IN FULL WITHIN???

    DO YOU THINK SINCE ACCORDING TO YOUR CHILDISH WISDOM,JESUS RESURRECTED IN THREE DAYS ,WE FILTHY,CORRUPTED,BEINGS WOULDN'T HAVE ALSO DID SO ,BUT INSTEAD WE HAVE TO WAIT MILLIONS OF YEARS TILL ALL OUR STINKING,FILTHY MINDS AND FLESH BE HOLY???

    HAVE YOU THE SLIGHTEST AWARENESS IF THE HOLY SPIRIT ENTERS YOUR CORRUPTED FLESH BODY IN FULL WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO EDJ??? HE WILL DEFINITELY QUICKEN YOU FOR SURE,AND HOW!! THE WHOLE UNIVERSES WOULD NOTICE SOMETHING UNUSUAL INSTEAD, BUT NOT EDJ  FOR SURE.

    WHO KNOWS A BLACK HOLE MABY???

    OR GOD'S PARTICLE???

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #308217
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 06 2012,01:04)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 06 2012,00:30)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 05 2012,23:06)
    I will not deal with Jammin, any more except he will answer the existing questions of mine. He could not find the rightful answers, that's why he just ignore it. How come he has a gut to join with this discussion if he has not fully equip with the truth about God?

    Peace> :D ??? :D :(


    limjunus,

    i already answered your questions. in fact, your NLT did not support your illusion that Christ is not God. why?

    let me post phil 2.6 of NLT

    Philippians 2:6

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,
       he did not think of equality with God
       as something to cling to.

    Christ is God accrding to your favorite version NLT

    you need to study hard and take more vitamins.

    better luck next time boy


    YOU DID NOT ANSWER JAMMIN, UP THIS TIME.

    1.) WHO SI THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, JESUS CHRIST, THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, OR HIS FATHER WHO HAD BEGOTTEN HIM?

    2.) HOW MANY TRUE GOD YOU HATH RECOGNIZED?

    I did not see your answers, where?


    LOL

    sorry boy but your favorite version says that Christ is GOD
    LOL

    study hard boy.

    your stand is weak

    #308218
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (journey42 @ Aug. 06 2012,01:22)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 06 2012,00:39)
    journey,

    that is what the bible says. Christ is God.
    phil 2.6 says that he was in the form of God, meaning he was GOD by nature

    Philippians 2:6

    Good News Translation (GNT)

    6 He always had the nature of God,
         but he did not think that by force he should try to remain[a] equal with God.

    Geneva Study Bible

    Who, being in the {d} form of God, {e} thought it not robbery to be {f} equal with God:

    (d) Such as God himself is, and therefore God, for there is no one in all parts equal to God but God himself.

    (e) Christ, that glorious and everlasting God, knew that he might rightfully and lawfully not appear in the base flesh of man, but remain with majesty fit for God: yet he chose rather to debase himself.

    (f) If the Son is equal with the Father, then is there of necessity an equality, which Arrius that heretic denies: and if the Son is compared to the Father, then is there a distinction of persons, which Sabellius that heretic denies.


    Jammin

    Did you understand what I said to you?
    The bible does not say Christ is God.
    Your bible says that?
    The good news translation is the same – revised, reworded
    The Geneva study bible, is mens footnotes in there,
    am I correct?
    Theres so many versions, take your pick
    Why don't you go to the original most trusted Word of God?
    The King James Version


    are you sure??? that is just your illusion

    let me post your favorite version KJV

    1 Timothy 3:16

    King James Version (KJV)

    16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    your favorite version says that God mas manifest in the flesh. who is that God?? that God is the SON (christ) and not the father.

    let me post again 1 tim 3.16
    1 Timothy 3:16

    Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

    16 Without a doubt, the secret of our life of worship is great:

    Christ was shown to us in human form;

    sorry boy but i believe what the bible says.
    commentaries also support the phil 2.6 that Christ is God.

    make your own bible

    #308219
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 04 2012,20:27)
    your gods are not really God by nature. they are created.


    They are not “my gods”, but gods that are clearly taught about in scripture. And yes, they were created by the God of all other gods, just as Jesus was created by that One.

    As for the question you say I never answer, I've answered it a dozen times for you already. The nature of God Almighty is “spirit” – the same nature that Jesus and the OTHER spirit sons of God have.

    When are YOU going to answer MY question, jammin?

    When Paul says Jesus was existing in the form of God, what or who did Paul mean by the word “God”?

    A. A SPECIES of beings?
    B. One particular Being?

    #308221
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (journey42 @ Aug. 05 2012,06:28)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 05 2012,15:38)
    God was manifest in the flesh.


    Yes, this statement is true.  No denying what the scripture says.  
    God was manifested in the flesh.


    Hi journey,

    As usual, I have been enjoying your posts.  Good stuff!  :)

    But you should know the truth that 1 Timothy 3:16 doesn't actually say “GOD was manifest in the flesh”.

    You can read about it on NETNotes if you'd like.  Just click on footnote #3 in the NET translation at the top of the page.  (Note that NETNotes was produced by 25 TRINITARIAN scholars – who would like nothing more than for it to say “God”.)

    Here is some of the information you can read on that link:
    The Byzantine text along with a few other witnesses read θεός (“God”) for ὅς (“who”).

    Significantly, D* and virtually the entire Latin tradition read the neuter relative pronoun, ὅ (Jo, “which”), a reading that indirectly supports ὅς (who) since it could not easily have been generated if θεός (God) had been in the text. Thus, externally, there is no question as to what should be considered original: The Alexandrian and Western traditions are decidedly in favor of ὅς. Internally, the evidence is even stronger. What scribe would change θεός to ὅς intentionally?

    It appears that sometime after the 2nd century the θεός reading came into existence, either via confusion with ὅς or as an intentional alteration to magnify Christ………..

    Once it got in, this theologically rich reading was easily able to influence all the rest of the mss it came in contact with (including mss already written, such as א A C D). That this reading did not arise until after the 2nd century is evident from the Western reading, ὅ.

    To argue that heretics tampered with the text here is self-defeating, for most of the Western fathers who quoted the verse with the relative pronoun were quite orthodox, strongly affirming the deity of Christ. They would have dearly loved such a reading as θεός. Further, had heretics introduced a variant to θεός, a far more natural choice would have been Χριστός (Cristos, “Christ”) or κύριος (kurios, “Lord”), since the text is self-evidently about Christ, but it is not self-evidently a proclamation of his deity.

    The ms was ALTERED sometime after the 2nd century to say “GOD appeared in the flesh”.  The earlier ms don't have the word “GOD”.

    And if you go to the page I linked, you'll notice that of the 9 translations listed, only the KJV and the NKJV have the word “GOD” in that verse.  The more recent translators, who had access to the older mss, have all translated as “HE appeared in the flesh”.

    In other words, there was no writing by Paul that ever said “GOD appeared in the flesh”.  There is no writing by Paul to say that, because God never did appear in the flesh.  His Son did.

    peace,
    mike

    #308222
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 05 2012,08:14)
    :given your own conclusion. Jesus ascending to my Father,.. is mean to you that from human being into a Supreme being? If Jesus Christ is truly God, why need to be changed from truly God into truly God?

    another confusion is, “if the begotten Son is truly God, why changing from Son God into a Father God?

    Another confusion you have made is, “If Jesus Christ is truly God, who is the flesh and died?


    Good points. :)

    #308252
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 06 2012,01:33)

    Quote
    “If the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you,
    he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your
    mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you


    Edj,

    YOUR WISDOM IS SURELY CORRUPTED,FILTHY,WORLDY AND MOST OF ALL HUMILIATING TO GOD HIMSELF.


    Hi Charles,

    That is Romans 8:11.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #308261
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 06 2012,01:52)

    Quote (journey42 @ Aug. 06 2012,01:22)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 06 2012,00:39)
    journey,

    that is what the bible says. Christ is God.
    phil 2.6 says that he was in the form of God, meaning he was GOD by nature

    Philippians 2:6

    Good News Translation (GNT)

    6 He always had the nature of God,
         but he did not think that by force he should try to remain[a] equal with God.

    Geneva Study Bible

    Who, being in the {d} form of God, {e} thought it not robbery to be {f} equal with God:

    (d) Such as God himself is, and therefore God, for there is no one in all parts equal to God but God himself.

    (e) Christ, that glorious and everlasting God, knew that he might rightfully and lawfully not appear in the base flesh of man, but remain with majesty fit for God: yet he chose rather to debase himself.

    (f) If the Son is equal with the Father, then is there of necessity an equality, which Arrius that heretic denies: and if the Son is compared to the Father, then is there a distinction of persons, which Sabellius that heretic denies.


    Jammin

    Did you understand what I said to you?
    The bible does not say Christ is God.
    Your bible says that?
    The good news translation is the same – revised, reworded
    The Geneva study bible, is mens footnotes in there,
    am I correct?
    Theres so many versions, take your pick
    Why don't you go to the original most trusted Word of God?
    The King James Version


    are you sure??? that is just your illusion

    let me post your favorite version KJV

    1 Timothy 3:16

    King James Version (KJV)

    16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    your favorite version says that God mas manifest in the flesh. who is that God?? that God is the SON (christ) and not the father.

    let me post again 1 tim 3.16
    1 Timothy 3:16

    Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

    16 Without a doubt, the secret of our life of worship is great:

    Christ was shown to us in human form;

    sorry boy but i believe what the bible says.
    commentaries also support the phil 2.6 that Christ is God.

    make your own bible


    Jammin,

    God can also be manifested in you.
    Do you believe this?

    I can give a few examples

    for example
    Someone insults you, and is angry and instead
    of you firing up and reacting violently and making the situation worse,
    your use calm words to calm that person, or walk away without adding heat to the fire and nothing further develops,
    then God will be manifest in you;

    or a shop attendant accidentally gives you too much change
    and you could quite easily keep that money without no-one ever knowing,
    but instead when you realise, you walk right back into that store and give the money back
    then God will be manifest in you.

    or;
    you find a wallet in the car park
    you hand it in not knowing if that wallet will ever reach the owner
    but it does, and the owner later thanks you and offers you a reward
    but you refuse
    then God will be manifest in you.

    or;
    you have a co-worker that has got it in for you, and reports to the boss for petty reasons, and wants you sacked,
    but you keep your job
    then  one day see that worker doing something against your boss, like taking a sickie, then you find out he was at the beach
    and this particular day, you really needed him at work, and the workload was all put on you, and you got no thanks
    and the boss was angry because you couldn't keep up with the orders, and starts doubting your experience
    and you know if you report him, he's fired and you're free of him,
    but you keep it to yourself
    then God is manifest in you

    You know that God says venegance is mine, I will repay
    so you don't seek vengenance yourself, because you trust in his  Word, as you know God sees all things
    Then God is manifest in you
    but that does not make you God does it?
    Cause he says that he will dwell inside us
    if we refuse evil,
    and he dwelt in Jesus also,
    because he was obedient till death,
    and the only advantage Jesus had was that he knew God's will,
    but he was still in the flesh, and could of used his power to destroy them right there and there,
    but he suffered, and endured their hatred instead
    to show us, that if we learn't the Fathers will also,
    then we can also overcome the same
    then God will be manifest in us.

    John 3:21   But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    John 9:3   Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

    John 14:21   He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    John 17:6   I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

    Romans 1:19   Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

    Jammin, can you see what manifest means?

    #308265
    jammin
    Participant

    mike,

    you are making friends hahaha

    journey,

    in 1tim 3.16 using your favorite translation KJV., who is the GOD in 1 tim 3.16, father or son??

    #308266
    jammin
    Participant

    mike,
    i answered already your question

    based on the bible
    phil 2.6 is nature.
    God is nature.
    that is what i can read in phil 2.6

    do not put your words in the bible.

    #308276
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2012,00:04)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 04 2012,11:51)
    Jesus’ words, “the Father is in Me,” must have left a strong impression on Thomas.
    Indeed, they are the key to correctly understand what doubting Thomas later meant when
    he said to Jesus, “my God.” That is, Thomas acknowledged what Jesus had taught ten
    days prior, that God the Father is in Jesus.


    Frank,

    The part I quoted is the ONLY part of your huge cut and paste that actually addresses the point in question.

    All those words boil down to one little thing:  Your author has INTERPRETED those words to mean Thomas was talking to both Jesus AND “the Father in him”.

    Unfortunately, one cannot honestly come to that interpretation from the words Thomas said, or the surrounding context John wrote.

    As for the rest of the post, it is good scriptural information proving that Jesus is not God Almighty – but bears no light on the words Thomas spoke.


    Mike,

    His is a large post; but others also are making long posts. All of these reduce my enjoyment.

    #308280
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 06 2012,03:07)

    Quote (journey42 @ Aug. 05 2012,06:28)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 05 2012,15:38)
    God was manifest in the flesh.


    Yes, this statement is true.  No denying what the scripture says.  
    God was manifested in the flesh.


    Hi journey,

    As usual, I have been enjoying your posts.  Good stuff!  :)

    But you should know the truth that 1 Timothy 3:16 doesn't actually say “GOD was manifest in the flesh”.

    You can read about it on NETNotes if you'd like.  Just click on footnote #3 in the NET translation at the top of the page.  (Note that NETNotes was produced by 25 TRINITARIAN scholars – who would like nothing more than for it to say “God”.)

    Here is some of the information you can read on that link:
    The Byzantine text along with a few other witnesses read θεός (“God”) for ὅς (“who”).

    Significantly, D* and virtually the entire Latin tradition read the neuter relative pronoun, ὅ (Jo, “which”), a reading that indirectly supports ὅς (who) since it could not easily have been generated if θεός (God) had been in the text. Thus, externally, there is no question as to what should be considered original: The Alexandrian and Western traditions are decidedly in favor of ὅς. Internally, the evidence is even stronger. What scribe would change θεός to ὅς intentionally?

    It appears that sometime after the 2nd century the θεός reading came into existence, either via confusion with ὅς or as an intentional alteration to magnify Christ………..

    Once it got in, this theologically rich reading was easily able to influence all the rest of the mss it came in contact with (including mss already written, such as א A C D). That this reading did not arise until after the 2nd century is evident from the Western reading, ὅ.

    To argue that heretics tampered with the text here is self-defeating, for most of the Western fathers who quoted the verse with the relative pronoun were quite orthodox, strongly affirming the deity of Christ. They would have dearly loved such a reading as θεός. Further, had heretics introduced a variant to θεός, a far more natural choice would have been Χριστός (Cristos, “Christ”) or κύριος (kurios, “Lord”), since the text is self-evidently about Christ, but it is not self-evidently a proclamation of his deity.

    The ms was ALTERED sometime after the 2nd century to say “GOD appeared in the flesh”.  The earlier ms don't have the word “GOD”.

    And if you go to the page I linked, you'll notice that of the 9 translations listed, only the KJV and the NKJV have the word “GOD” in that verse.  The more recent translators, who had access to the older mss, have all translated as “HE appeared in the flesh”.

    In other words, there was no writing by Paul that ever said “GOD appeared in the flesh”.  There is no writing by Paul to say that, because God never did appear in the flesh.  His Son did.

    peace,
    mike


    Ura and Jammin Bible versions: “God appeared in the flesh… and died?…”

    Mike Bible versions: “The Son of God appeared in the flesh…”

    Other Bible versions: The begotten Son of God, died….”

    Ura and Jammin Bible versions: “God appeared in the flesh and died then raised by God from the dead?…”

    Limjunus Bible versions:

    #308281
    kerwin
    Participant

    To all;

    Where does John 20:28 state Thomas was calling anyone anything? I do not perceive thee words “you are” as Peter included when confessing Jesus to be the Christ, the Son of God, Matthew 16:16.

    Instead he replied to Jesus' words not to be faithless; but believing and some conclude it infers Thomas is calling Jesus “My Lord and my God”.

    Is it wise to so add to what is written?

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