John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 9,201 through 9,220 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #308282
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 06 2012,16:09)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 06 2012,03:07)

    Quote (journey42 @ Aug. 05 2012,06:28)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 05 2012,15:38)
    God was manifest in the flesh.


    Yes, this statement is true.  No denying what the scripture says.  
    God was manifested in the flesh.


    Hi journey,

    As usual, I have been enjoying your posts.  Good stuff!  :)

    But you should know the truth that 1 Timothy 3:16 doesn't actually say “GOD was manifest in the flesh”.

    You can read about it on NETNotes if you'd like.  Just click on footnote #3 in the NET translation at the top of the page.  (Note that NETNotes was produced by 25 TRINITARIAN scholars – who would like nothing more than for it to say “God”.)

    Here is some of the information you can read on that link:
    The Byzantine text along with a few other witnesses read θεός (“God”) for ὅς (“who”).

    Significantly, D* and virtually the entire Latin tradition read the neuter relative pronoun, ὅ (Jo, “which”), a reading that indirectly supports ὅς (who) since it could not easily have been generated if θεός (God) had been in the text. Thus, externally, there is no question as to what should be considered original: The Alexandrian and Western traditions are decidedly in favor of ὅς. Internally, the evidence is even stronger. What scribe would change θεός to ὅς intentionally?

    It appears that sometime after the 2nd century the θεός reading came into existence, either via confusion with ὅς or as an intentional alteration to magnify Christ………..

    Once it got in, this theologically rich reading was easily able to influence all the rest of the mss it came in contact with (including mss already written, such as א A C D). That this reading did not arise until after the 2nd century is evident from the Western reading, ὅ.

    To argue that heretics tampered with the text here is self-defeating, for most of the Western fathers who quoted the verse with the relative pronoun were quite orthodox, strongly affirming the deity of Christ. They would have dearly loved such a reading as θεός. Further, had heretics introduced a variant to θεός, a far more natural choice would have been Χριστός (Cristos, “Christ”) or κύριος (kurios, “Lord”), since the text is self-evidently about Christ, but it is not self-evidently a proclamation of his deity.

    The ms was ALTERED sometime after the 2nd century to say “GOD appeared in the flesh”.  The earlier ms don't have the word “GOD”.

    And if you go to the page I linked, you'll notice that of the 9 translations listed, only the KJV and the NKJV have the word “GOD” in that verse.  The more recent translators, who had access to the older mss, have all translated as “HE appeared in the flesh”.

    In other words, there was no writing by Paul that ever said “GOD appeared in the flesh”.  There is no writing by Paul to say that, because God never did appear in the flesh.  His Son did.

    peace,
    mike


    Ura and Jammin Bible versions: “God appeared in the flesh… and died?…”

    Mike Bible versions: “The Son of God appeared in the flesh…”

    Other Bible versions: The begotten Son of God, died….”

    Ura and Jammin Bible versions: “God appeared in the flesh and died then raised by God from the dead?…”

    Limjunus Bible versions:


    :D :D :D

    #308285
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 06 2012,01:46)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 06 2012,01:04)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 06 2012,00:30)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 05 2012,23:06)
    I will not deal with Jammin, any more except he will answer the existing questions of mine. He could not find the rightful answers, that's why he just ignore it. How come he has a gut to join with this discussion if he has not fully equip with the truth about God?

    Peace> :D ??? :D :(


    limjunus,

    i already answered your questions. in fact, your NLT did not support your illusion that Christ is not God. why?

    let me post phil 2.6 of NLT

    Philippians 2:6

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,
       he did not think of equality with God
       as something to cling to.

    Christ is God accrding to your favorite version NLT

    you need to study hard and take more vitamins.

    better luck next time boy


    YOU DID NOT ANSWER JAMMIN, UP THIS TIME.

    1.) WHO SI THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, JESUS CHRIST, THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, OR HIS FATHER WHO HAD BEGOTTEN HIM?

    2.) HOW MANY TRUE GOD YOU HATH RECOGNIZED?

    I did not see your answers, where?


    LOL

    sorry boy but your favorite version says that Christ is GOD
    LOL

    study hard boy.

    your stand is weak


    Escaping …. :( :D ???

    #308289
    jammin
    Participant

    limjunus,

    im not escaping boy. but dont you have any common sense?? LOL

    your favorite version contradict your belief that Christ is not GOD>

    make more research before talking to me. you need to study hard boy LOL

    #308291
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 06 2012,16:48)
    limjunus,

    im not escaping boy. but dont you have any common sense?? LOL

    your favorite version contradict your belief that Christ is not GOD>

    make more research before talking to me. you need to study hard boy LOL


    The questions are very simple and clear. I did not ask what verses do you have that Jesus Christ is truly God?

    Another chance for you again:

    1.) “WHO IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, Jesus Christ, the begotten Son of God, or his Father who had begotten him?

    2.) How many truly God you have recognized, only one or more?

    Simple questions but very difficult for you to answer, because you really do not know which is the one and only true God, the Son or the Father?

    As I told you before, I am not relying only with the Bible versions. There are more than 25,000 Bible versions around the world. I am relying and believing with the genuine truth about God. The real truth has no contradictions “boy” …. go and find the rightful answers to my questions and do not look for a ways and means to escape.

    Peace. :D

    #308298
    limjunus
    Participant

    [/B] John 20:31 King James Version (KJV)

    “But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. (John 11:27 KJV)

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16 KJV)[B]

    verse 27 is a very self explanatory sentence and the rightful answer to the question of “Who is Jesus of Nazareth? …..” addressing the question,….. ' I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God,…”

    verse 3:16 is also a very self explanatory sentence and it is not difficult to understand. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,…”

    verse 31 is also a very self explanatory sentences. “….that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    and the verse of 1 Timothy 2:5 is also a very self explanatory sentences and very easy to understand. ” For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (KJV).

    Truth & belief from the rightful understanding: “GOD MAN CHRIST JESUS MEN” (One God, one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus) Ref. 1 Tim. 2:5

    Other beliefs: “GOD GOD Christ Jesus MEN” (One God, one mediator between God and men, the God Christ Jesus) Ref. Jammin and other understanding.

    Which is the right one?

    :D :D :D

    #308299
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 06 2012,17:57)
    [/B] John 20:31 King James Version (KJV)

    “But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. (John 11:27 KJV)

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16 KJV)[B]

    verse 27 is a very self explanatory sentence and the rightful answer to the question of “Who is Jesus of Nazareth? …..” addressing the question,….. ' I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God,…”

    verse 3:16 is also a very self explanatory sentence and it is not difficult to understand. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,…”

    verse 31 is also a very self explanatory sentences. “….that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    and the verse of 1 Timothy 2:5 is also a very self explanatory sentences and very easy to understand. ” For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (KJV).

    Truth & belief from the rightful understanding: “GOD MAN CHRIST JESUS MEN” (One God, one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus) Ref. 1 Tim. 2:5

    Other beliefs: “GOD GOD Christ Jesus MEN” (One God, one mediator between God and men, the God Christ Jesus) Ref. Jammin and other understanding.

    Which is the right one?

    :D :D :D


    and the verse of 1 Timothy 2:5 is also a very self explanatory sentences and very easy to understand. ” For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (KJV).

    Truth & belief from the rightful understanding: “GOD MAN CHRIST JESUS MEN” (One God, one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus) Ref. 1 Tim. 2:5

    Other beliefs: “GOD GOD Christ Jesus MEN” (One God, one mediator between God and men, the God Christ Jesus) Ref. Jammin and other understanding.

    Which is the right one?

    #308301
    limjunus
    Participant

    The truth and the rightful understanding” Ref. 1 Timothy 1:17 King James Version (KJV)
    17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    Other belief contrary to the truth and rightful understanding:”Now unto King eternal, the invisible, immortal and only wise God, Jesus Christ” (Jesus Christ is invisible, immortal and only wise God?) ref. Jammin and others with the same belief.

    Wow… Jesus Christ, the only wise God, invisible and immortal? Whos is the flesh died in the cross???

    Peace. :(

    #308302
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 06 2012,17:08)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 06 2012,16:48)
    limjunus,

    im not escaping boy. but dont you have any common sense?? LOL

    your favorite version contradict your belief that Christ is not GOD>

    make more research before talking to me. you need to study hard boy LOL


    The questions are very simple and clear. I did not ask what verses do you have that Jesus Christ is truly God?

    Another chance for you again:

    1.) “WHO IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, Jesus Christ, the begotten Son of God, or his Father who had begotten him?

    2.) How many truly God you have recognized, only one or more?

    Simple questions but very difficult for you to answer, because you really do not know which is the one and only true God, the Son or the Father?

    As I told you before, I am not relying only with the Bible versions.  There are more than 25,000 Bible versions around the world.  I am relying and believing with the genuine truth about God.  The real truth has no contradictions “boy” …. go and find the rightful answers to my questions and do not look for a ways and means to escape.

    Peace.  :D


    i can talk to you boy but i think it is non sense bec your favorite version contradicts your belief. LOL

    you are using NLT to prove that john 20.28 is not referring to Christ as God but the translators of the NLT believes that Christ is GOD! you can find this in phil 2.6, NLT says that he was GOD!
    LOL

    you have no common sense boy. you are lack of knowledge. before you use a version, make sure that you have enough knowledge using that version.

    sorry boy but i think u must study hard before talking to me LOL :D :D :D

    #308303
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 06 2012,20:22)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 06 2012,17:08)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 06 2012,16:48)
    limjunus,

    im not escaping boy. but dont you have any common sense?? LOL

    your favorite version contradict your belief that Christ is not GOD>

    make more research before talking to me. you need to study hard boy LOL


    The questions are very simple and clear. I did not ask what verses do you have that Jesus Christ is truly God?

    Another chance for you again:

    1.) “WHO IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, Jesus Christ, the begotten Son of God, or his Father who had begotten him?

    2.) How many truly God you have recognized, only one or more?

    Simple questions but very difficult for you to answer, because you really do not know which is the one and only true God, the Son or the Father?

    As I told you before, I am not relying only with the Bible versions.  There are more than 25,000 Bible versions around the world.  I am relying and believing with the genuine truth about God.  The real truth has no contradictions “boy” …. go and find the rightful answers to my questions and do not look for a ways and means to escape.

    Peace.  :D


    i can talk to you boy but i think it is non sense bec your favorite version contradicts your belief. LOL

    you are using NLT to prove that john 20.28 is not referring to Christ as God but the translators of the NLT believes that Christ is GOD! you can find this in phil 2.6, NLT says that he was GOD!
    LOL

    you have no common sense boy. you are lack of knowledge. before you use a version, make sure that you have enough knowledge using that version.

    sorry boy but i think u must study hard before talking to me LOL  :D  :D  :D


    NICE ALIBI? my favorite Bible version contradict my belief? It's another matter “boy”! …. why you can not answers my questions? … you are just circling the questions and can not able to answers it, … proving that you are incompetent with your stand and really do not know the essence of the questions.

    Peace. :;): ??? :D

    #308306
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 06 2012,20:54)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 06 2012,20:22)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 06 2012,17:08)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 06 2012,16:48)
    limjunus,

    im not escaping boy. but dont you have any common sense?? LOL

    your favorite version contradict your belief that Christ is not GOD>

    make more research before talking to me. you need to study hard boy LOL


    The questions are very simple and clear. I did not ask what verses do you have that Jesus Christ is truly God?

    Another chance for you again:

    1.) “WHO IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, Jesus Christ, the begotten Son of God, or his Father who had begotten him?

    2.) How many truly God you have recognized, only one or more?

    Simple questions but very difficult for you to answer, because you really do not know which is the one and only true God, the Son or the Father?

    As I told you before, I am not relying only with the Bible versions.  There are more than 25,000 Bible versions around the world.  I am relying and believing with the genuine truth about God.  The real truth has no contradictions “boy” …. go and find the rightful answers to my questions and do not look for a ways and means to escape.

    Peace.  :D


    i can talk to you boy but i think it is non sense bec your favorite version contradicts your belief. LOL

    you are using NLT to prove that john 20.28 is not referring to Christ as God but the translators of the NLT believes that Christ is GOD! you can find this in phil 2.6, NLT says that he was GOD!
    LOL

    you have no common sense boy. you are lack of knowledge. before you use a version, make sure that you have enough knowledge using that version.

    sorry boy but i think u must study hard before talking to me LOL  :D  :D  :D


    NICE ALIBI?  my favorite Bible version contradict my belief? It's another matter “boy”! …. why you can not answers my questions? … you are just circling the questions and can not able to answers it, … proving that you are incompetent with your stand and really do not know the essence of the questions.

    Peace.  :;):  ???  :D I am not talking to you “boy”. I am asking you. ,…. you could not able to respond rightfully, because you really do not know what is the truth about it?


    [/B] Jammin …HUH!? :O [B]

    #308309
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 06 2012,13:51)
    mike,

    you are making friends hahaha

    journey,

    in 1tim  3.16 using your favorite translation KJV., who is the GOD in 1 tim 3.16, father or son??


    Jammin

    I'm your friend too!

    ok I'll look at it with my trusted KJV!
    1Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    This is talking about Jesus Christ, the Son.
    What's the confusion?

    #308311
    jammin
    Participant

    therefore the son is God according to KJV
    1tim 3.16

    #308312
    jammin
    Participant

    limjunus,

    have you forgotten that you used NLT to prove in john 20.28 that thomas is not saying directly the word God to Christ.
    you concluded that Jesus is not God according to john 20.28 even though thomas said that to jesus.

    but your NLT contradicts your belief if you read phil 2.6 of NLT
    it says that Christ was God.

    study hard boy.
    do not put your own words in the bible. you are lack of knowledge. before talking to me make sure that you have enough knowledge

    #308320
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    Hi Charles,

    That is Romans 8:11.

    Edj,

    Who said it isn't???

    But for God's Sake, WHAT 7,8,9,and 10 say??? in order for the Spirit to dwell in YOU EDJ???

    READ AND REFLECT

    Romans8:7 Because the wisdom of the flesh is an enemy to God;

    WHAT IS THE WISDOM OF THE FLESH, WHICH IS YOURS EDJ????

    for it is not subject to the law of God, neither can it be.

    8 And they who are in the flesh, cannot please God.

    AND YOU,with every respect,WHO ARE IN THE FLESH, CANNOT PLEASE GOD????

    9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

    SO ARE YOU READY TO DESTROY COMPLETELY YOUR FLESH,IN ORDER FOR THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS IN YOU????

    ALSO NOTICE THE ABOVE ONE SAYS “THE SPIRIT OF GOD”

    AND HEREUNDER SAYS “THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST:

    SO CHRIST IS GOD!!!

    Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    SO IF YOU ARE NOT DEAD IN YOUR FLESH,YOU DON'T HAVE THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST,AND ALSO YOU ARE NOT HIS

    10 And if Christ be in you, the body indeed is dead,

    SO SINCE YOUR BODY IS NOT DEAD,CHRIST IS NOT IN YOU!!!

    because of sin; but the spirit liveth, because of justification.

    That would have been more sensible of you to explain HOW THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST WOULD DWELL IN A PERSON LIKE YOU AND ME!!! WITHOUT ERADICATE US COMPLETELY.

    NON STOP SINNERS!!!

    SLAVES TO THE FLESH!!!

    SUBJECT TO EVERY FILTH WHICH THE FLESH INSTGATES!!!

    ENJOY ALL PLEASURE WHICH THE FLESH MAKES US SUBJECT TO. NEVER MIND DESTROY IT!!!

    REFLECT ON HEAVEN NET POSTS, AND YOU WILL KNOW WHO IS PARTICIPATING,EITHER THE FLESH,OR THE SPIRIT IN THE NAME OF JESUS!!!

    SO MY QUESTION IS DO WE HAVE THE SAME SPIRIT,AND AMMOUNT OF SPIRIT WHICH JESUS OWNED IN HIM WHICH WAS OF GOD ALMIGHTY??

    DEFINITELY NOT,AND DEFINITELY IT WOULD NEVER WOULD BE!!

    peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #308328
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 06 2012,22:10)
    therefore the son is God according to KJV
    1tim 3.16


    Jammin.

    Peter said '' THOU ART THE MESIAH THE SON OF GOD.
    And Jesus said it is God that revealed that to you.
    Are you disagreeing with this? yes you are.

    Because you say; NO JESUS IS GOD,NOT THE SON OF GOD.

    wakeup.

    #308337
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 05 2012,20:52)
    i answered already your question

    based on the bible
    phil 2.6 is nature.
    God is nature.


    So YOUR interpretation of Phil 2:6 is, “Who, existing in the form of NATURE, did not consider equality…………..”? ???

    You think the word “God” there means “Nature”?

    #308338
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 05 2012,22:19)
    Mike,

    His is a large post; but others also are making long posts. All of these reduce my enjoyment.


    Members,

    Please remember that we don't need to keep quoting the WHOLE discussion you are having with someone else. Quote only their most recent words that you are actually responding to.

    Thanks

    #308341
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 06 2012,00:57)
    Other beliefs: “GOD GOD Christ Jesus MEN” (One God, one mediator between God and men, the God Christ Jesus) Ref. Jammin and other understanding.

    Which is the right one?


    1 Corinthians 11:3
    But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    Some people seem to believe that God is the head of God.  

    The correct equation is:  God > Christ > Man

    If someone is teaching a different equation than that, then their teaching contradicts MANY scriptures – including the one posted above.

    #308342
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 05 2012,23:10)
    …………..some conclude it infers Thomas is calling Jesus “My Lord and my God”.

    Is it wise to so add to what is written?


    Kerwin,

    It seems clear enough to me that if Thomas said TO JESUS, “My Lord and my God”, then he was calling these names TO JESUS.

    #308344
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (journey42 @ Aug. 06 2012,04:59)
    ok I'll look at it with my trusted KJV!


    Why?  The info I just posted for you wasn't someone's “guess”, journey.  It is now a clear and undeniable FACT that the word “God” did not appear in any Greek ms of 1 Tim 3:16 until AFTER 200 AD.

    The earlier mss DO NOT have the word God in that verse.  When the KJV was translated, they translated from the oldest and best mss known to them AT THAT TIME.  We have since uncovered older and better ones – which is why the NASB, NIV, NRSV, and the other newer Bibles don't have the word “God” in that verse.  Neither do the ancient Syriac texts, nor the Latin Vulgate.

    Why would you even entertain jammin by using a translation that has been shown to be flawed in that particular verse?  ???

    An honest but mistaken man, once shown the truth, either ceases to be mistaken, or ceases to be honest.

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