John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 9,001 through 9,020 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #307323
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 26 2012,07:49)

    Quote (carmel @ July 26 2012,14:28)

    Quote
    “Equality” would required that we have to go through God to get to Jesus as well as going through Jesus to get to God.  But that is not the case, is it?

    Mike,

    If for example there is a HOUSE which is locked, and in this house there is a TREASURE, and in the same time no one has the KEY because it is lost, that treasure is USELESS.

    Now answer:

                                                  IS THE KEY  more powerful then the treasure.??
                                                  Or:
                                                  IS THE KEY  equally powerful to the treasure.??
                                                  Or:
                                                  IS THE KEY  less powerful then the treasure??

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    charles

    I am a carpenter and can open all doorS in wood  :D


    Quote
    I am a carpenter and can open all doorS in wood  :D

    Terraricca,

    I never asked something about a DOOR, but about a KEY!

    Now answer my QUESTION if you are capable enough,or have the courage to do so!!!

    Regarding wooden doors,

    I am also a carpenter, and I able to lock a door ,and  guarantee that only a dinamite would open it.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #307325
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2012,11:57)

    Quote (carmel @ July 25 2012,14:28)

    Quote
    “Equality” would required that we have to go through God to get to Jesus as well as going through Jesus to get to God.  But that is not the case, is it?

    Mike,

    If for example there is a HOUSE which is locked, and in this house there is a TREASURE, and in the same time no one has the KEY because it is lost, that treasure is USELESS.

    Now answer:

                                                  IS THE KEY  more powerful then the treasure.??
                                                  Or:
                                                  IS THE KEY  equally powerful to the treasure.??
                                                  Or:
                                                  IS THE KEY  less powerful then the treasure??

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Hi Charles,

    The treasure is the ultimate goal, the key is the means to an end.

    Let's use your analogy for God and Aaron.  Aaron was the key in the wilderness after Egypt, and God was the treasure.  Who was more powerful?  The God who could forgive the sins?  Or the priest through whom the sacrifices for forgivement were made?

    Charles, try to remember that Jesus is the High Priest of God, like Aaron was.  Surely God Almighty is not His own priest.


    Quote
    The treasure is the ultimate goal, the key is the means to an end

    Mike,

    Is that an answer to MY QUESTION???

    Is that How good you are???

    Here they are again!

    In that moment in time to open the door and there's no KEY!!!

                                                  IS THE KEY  more powerful then the treasure.??
                                                  Or:
                                                  IS THE KEY  equally powerful to the treasure.??
                                                  Or:
                                                  IS THE KEY  less powerful then the treasure??

    You either select one of these or else simply QUIT. SINCE YOU DO NOT WANT TO LOSE THE ARGUMENT!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #307331
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ July 26 2012,11:46)
    The verse 2:6 of Phil., is telling us that Jesus Christ has the quality and that quality is entitling him to be equal with God. So what quality it is? Why Jesus Christ need to be stripped that quality  so that he could be suited to a Savior and to be another true God?


    limjunus,

    Did you word what you said wrong as it does not follow that even having a quality that is equal to God entitles him to be equal to God?

    For example Adam was created in the image of God and yet was not entitled to be equal to God.

    The angels are like God in that they do not sin but nerveless see equality to him as something not to be grasped, but instead make themselves nothing, taking on the likeness of servants.

    #307334
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ July 27 2012,10:06)
    GOD became Flesh or was manifest in the flesh
    1 Timothy 3:16

    King James Version (KJV)

    16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world,

    the body died.

    i am not twisting the bible. that is a word for word in the bible.
    you just cant accept that truth boy.

    if your father is a MAN by nature, you are also a MAN and not an animal boy


    Jammin,

    According to your reasoning believers are Jehovah because God lives in their flesh.  

    Ephesians 2:22
    King James Version (KJV)

    22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

    1 Corinthians 3:16
    King James Version (KJV)

    16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

    If you arbitrarily apply different meaning to same words, just because one speaks of Jesus and the other of believers then you do twist Scripture.

    Test your teachings and your actions.

    #307344
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2012,10:04)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 24 2012,18:50)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 25 2012,11:07)

    Your turn:

    1.  Where in scripture does it specifically say Jehovah pre-existed human beings?

    Please show the scriptures that EXPLICITELY state the things I asked about – if there are any.


    Mike,

    Since it was Father Yahweh Who caused we human beings to come into existence it only stands to simple reasoning that He existed before us.


    Frank,

    Your bolded words above make the very point I was going to make, but I thought I'd give you a chance to first produce any scriptures that specifically said the things in the three questions I asked you.

    It is clear that you CANNOT produce these scriptures, because they simply don't exist.

    My point is that it is useless for you to ask us where in scripture we are asked to believe that Jesus pre-existed, since we are never asked to believe that God pre-existed either.

    Does the fact that we are not SPECIFICALLY ASKED to believe these things mean these things are not clearly taught in scripture?  Judging from your bolded words above, the answer is “NO”.

    You are correct that we are clearly taught from scripture that God pre-existed humans, because it stands to reason He would exist BEFORE the beings He created.  So even though we are not SPECIFICALLY ASKED to believe such a thing, we believe it because of the OTHER scriptures that explain how God created man, etc.

    So, are we SPECIFICALLY ASKED to believe that Jesus pre-existed his time on earth?  No.  But it stands to reason that if he was existing in the form of God, emptied himself, and was made in the likeness of a human being, then he existed BEFORE being made in the likeness of a human being.

    It stands to reason that if Jesus had glory alongside his God before the world began, then he existed before the world began.

    It stands to reason that if all things in heaven and earth were created through Jesus, then he existed before those things were created through him.

    It stands to reason that if Jesus said he existed before Abraham, then he existed before he was born of Mary.

    Etc, etc, etc.

    Are you getting the point?  It is the same exact point you yourself made to me in the bolded words above.  The point is that your questions, even though answered DIRECTLY and HONESTLY by me, do NOTHING in the way of proving Jesus didn't pre-exist.  (Just like my questions did nothing in the way of proving God didn't exist before humans.)

    Perhaps you could come up with some questions that actually DO prove something one way or the other, huh?


    Mike,

    YOUR “Gods” do not exist and have no power whatsoever!  :D

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #307351
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 26 2012,13:11)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 25 2012,00:03)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 24 2012,18:55)
    Frank,

    My browser is  overloaded by lengthy posts.  

    I have read some of what is linked to in the past but scrolling through a lot of typing slows down my browser and takes time away from reading what I choose to.

    What you post from others is equivalent to hearsay evidence unless you understand it enough to be able to show the work and defend it against cross examiners.


    kerwin,

    And your just another bold-faced liar!


    Frank.

    Those words are not a lie though you choose to deny them.  I doubt that you have a fast enough connection that you also do not experience the same thing.  

    Those that are wise are considerate of others even as they speak the truth out of love.

    Seek wisdom!


    kerwin,

    I still believe you to be a bold-faced liar. If your computer can not handle simple text, then it most certainly can not handle the simple images on this forum. Following is what your true problem is with what is that I have posted in your own telling words:

    Quote
    What you post from others is equivalent to hearsay

    Another thing that is very telling in why it is that you are not being truthful is that you and Mike had no complaints about my posts until Pieear started his whining concerning my posts. If you will lie about Scripture you will certainly lie about anything else. You can direct your bold-faced lies to someone else, because I am not a stupid as you want make me out to be.

    #307352
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 28 2012,11:15)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 26 2012,13:11)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 25 2012,00:03)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 24 2012,18:55)
    Frank,

    My browser is  overloaded by lengthy posts.  

    I have read some of what is linked to in the past but scrolling through a lot of typing slows down my browser and takes time away from reading what I choose to.

    What you post from others is equivalent to hearsay evidence unless you understand it enough to be able to show the work and defend it against cross examiners.


    kerwin,

    And your just another bold-faced liar!


    Frank.

    Those words are not a lie though you choose to deny them.  I doubt that you have a fast enough connection that you also do not experience the same thing.  

    Those that are wise are considerate of others even as they speak the truth out of love.

    Seek wisdom!


    kerwin,

    I still believe you to be a bold-faced liar. If your computer can not handle simple text, then it most certainly can not handle the simple images on this forum. Following is what your true problem is with what is that I have posted in your own telling words:

    Quote
    What you post from others is equivalent to hearsay

    Another thing that is very telling in why it is that you are not being truthful is that you and Mike had no complaints about my posts until Pieear started his whining concerning my posts. If you will lie about Scripture you will certainly lie about anything else. You can direct your bold-faced lies to someone else, because I am not a stupid as you want make me out to be.


    kerwin,

    Another point I would like to make to you is concerning your remark as follows:

    Quote
    unless you understand it enough to be able to show the work and defend it against cross examiners.

    If this were true that one must “… be able to show … and defend it against cross examiners.”, then Yahshua would not have instructed the following:

    “Do not give dogs what is set apart; do not throw your pearls to pigs. IF YOU DO, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

    #307362
    kerwin
    Participant

    Frank,

    Just because people choose to remain quiet does not mean they have no grievances.

    You are not the only one that makes long posts; as some of those that judged you did must check their own works.

    Yeshua chose to use symbolic language to confuse those that are not seeking Yahweh's righteousness and kingdom.  I doubt you are doing that.

    The wisdom he shares is:

    Proverbs 23:9
    King James Version (KJV)

    9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

    #307398
    limjunus
    Participant

    To Colter: His post no. 694.

    The only passages post from the holy scripture is, “”If you have seen me you have seen the Father.”

    The meaning of his messages could be, “being sent by him and as his official representative before you and because God is invisible but through me as his official ambassador you could seen him.

    All of your next explanations just had come from your own concept/ mindset and not from the Bible.

    Just try to read again what I had post and tackle the main issue.

    Bottom line:
    Jesus Christ and his apostles already introduced to us who is the one and only true God. Ref: John 17:1-3 John 20:17 / 1 Cor. 8:4-6. Mal. 2:10

    What we are trying to talk to,.. if Jesus Christ is truly God?

    We must understand first what qualities (attributes) the true God has? then we can come into a safe conclusion if Jesus Christ is truly God.

    God qualities:

    Spirit, Immortal, Invisible,A holy Father, Creator of all things, Only One, No beginning, No ending, Could not be changed and so on.

    #307400
    terraricca
    Participant

    charles

    Quote

    Quote (carmel @ July 25 2012,14:28)
    Quote
    “Equality” would required that we have to go through God to get to Jesus as well as going through Jesus to get to God. But that is not the case, is it?

    Mike,

    If for example there is a HOUSE which is locked, and in this house there is a TREASURE, and in the same time no one has the KEY because it is lost, that treasure is USELESS.

    Now answer:

    IS THE KEY more powerful then the treasure.??
    Or:
    IS THE KEY equally powerful to the treasure.??
    Or:
    IS THE KEY less powerful then the treasure??

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    “Equality” would required that we have to go through God to get to Jesus as well as going through Jesus to get to God. But that is not the case, is it?NO

    the answer would depend on the person that wants the treasure is it not ???

    but I do not see the relevance to your example and God with Christ ,it seems some thing is missing or faulty

    in a way the treasure remain MORE powerful at all times ,if you talk about possessing it ,and not accessing it ,but if accessing is the want then the key becomes a factor of power to have it .

    so the key can be equally powerful depending on your wants .

    #307403
    limjunus
    Participant

    Plans: Foreknowledge (foreknown). A Messiah, the begotten Son would be,.. is the first of all creations in the mind of God. Everything has been created for him as and for being the heirs of everything.

    Before the foundation of the world and everything with it, God is alone God in heaven with celestial beings, the Que'rubins and other angels.

    God plan is to have another creation to be with them in heaven, a form of human being but a perfect one.

    The ordained human being should be a tested obedient to the will of God, so that he shall be promoted as the right hand of God and everything in heaven, earth and under the earth should be under by him., excluding God, who shall make everything under him.

    The processing of the plans is in according with the design ways of God, all could be read in the holy scriptures.

    Bottom Line: God with the appointed heirs (Jesus Christ) as the right hand, as the begotten Son of God and to be the leader, together with his true believers and all of the angels living in paradise forever and ever with eternal life.

    Ref. 1 Peter 1:20 KJV
    Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    Heb. 1:2 KJV
    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    1 Cor. 15:26-28 KJV
    26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    Philippians 2:8-11 KJV
    And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    #307405
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 28 2012,10:23)

    Quote (jammin @ July 27 2012,10:06)
    GOD became Flesh or was manifest in the flesh
    1 Timothy 3:16

    King James Version (KJV)

    16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world,

    the body died.

    i am not twisting the bible. that is a word for word in the bible.
    you just cant accept that truth boy.

    if your father is a MAN by nature, you are also a MAN and not an animal boy


    Jammin,

    According to your reasoning believers are Jehovah because God lives in their flesh.  

    Ephesians 2:22
    King James Version (KJV)

    22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

    1 Corinthians 3:16
    King James Version (KJV)

    16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

    If you arbitrarily apply different meaning to same words, just because one speaks of Jesus and the other of believers then you do twist Scripture.

    Test your teachings and your actions.


    eph 2.22 and 1 cor 3.16 are not the same as 1 tim 3.16

    that is just your opinion boy.
    LOL

    1 tim 3.16 is talking about Christ who became flesh. Christ is GOD by nature according to paul (phil 2.6)

    1 tim 3.16 says that he is GOD who was manifest in the flesh.
    that GOD is Christ, the son and not the father!

    1 Timothy 3:16

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    16 And great and important and weighty, we confess, is the hidden truth (the mystic secret) of godliness. He [[a]God] was made visible in human flesh

    1 Timothy 3:16

    Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

    16 Without a doubt, the secret of our life of worship is great:

    Christ [a] was shown to us in human form

    #307406
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ July 28 2012,17:53)
    To Colter: His post no. 694.

    The only passages post from the holy scripture is, “”If you have seen me you have seen the Father.”

    The meaning of his messages could be, “being sent by him and as his official representative before you and because God is invisible but through me as his official ambassador you could seen him.

    All of your next explanations just had come from your own concept/ mindset and not from the Bible.

    Just try to read again what I had post and tackle the main issue.

    Bottom line:
    Jesus Christ and his apostles already introduced to us who is the one and only true God. Ref: John 17:1-3 John 20:17 / 1 Cor. 8:4-6. Mal. 2:10

    What we are trying to talk to,.. if Jesus Christ is truly God?

    We must understand first what qualities (attributes) the true God has? then we can come into a safe conclusion if Jesus Christ is truly God.

    God qualities:

    Spirit, Immortal, Invisible,A holy Father, Creator of all things, Only One, No beginning, No ending, Could not be changed and so on.


    believe in the bible

    Philippians 2:6

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,[a]
    he did not think of equality with God
    as something to cling to.

    Christ is truly GOD

    #307407
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ July 28 2012,00:31)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 26 2012,08:58)

    Quote (jammin @ July 25 2012,22:59)
    6     Although he was in the form of God and equal with God,
           he did not take advantage of this equality.

    make your own bible boy.


    Hi Jammin,

    How does one go about taking advantage of equality?  ???

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Look at your quote  –  and “PLEASE” answer my question.


    the bible said that.
    what is wrong with that??/
    i cant see wrong.

    pls elaborate your question

    #307408
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    so the key can be equally powerful depending on your wants .

    Terraricca,

    IN THAT MOMENT IN TIME,THE KEY IS EQUAL TO THE TREASURE,for the simple reason that the treasure is useless
    without any access to it. IT DOESN'T EXIST.
    Also, the key is equal in its value  so long  THERE IS A TREASURE!

    SO EQUAL.

    Quote
    but I do not see the relevance to your example and God with Christ ,it seems some thing is missing or faulty

    Now answer this since you cannot see it!!

    What is the treasure represents???

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #307409
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    The treasure is the ultimate goal, the key is the means to an end.

    Mike,

    please just answer accordingly.

    The key is not the means to an end.

    THE KEY IS THE MEANS TO A NEW START WITHOUT END.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #307411
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ July 29 2012,07:24)

    Quote
    so the key can be equally powerful depending on your wants .

    Terraricca,

    IN THAT MOMENT IN TIME,THE KEY IS EQUAL TO THE TREASURE,for the simple reason that the treasure is useless
    without any access to it. IT DOESN'T EXIST.
    Also, the key is equal in its value  so long  THERE IS A TREASURE!

    SO EQUAL.

    Quote
    but I do not see the relevance to your example and God with Christ ,it seems some thing is missing or faulty

    Now answer this since you cannot see it!!

    What is the treasure represents???

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Charles

    the treasure ,if it is the word of God ,then the key is within the treasure ,

    and so the treasure does not depend on a key from a separated place ,

    because the word of God has been made for man in a certain condition to find it ,

    it is more like a can of sardines with the key attached to it ,if I may use that expression.

    and unless you want sardines you will never look for the can or the key to open it ,

    the way of God are truthful ,He give us the key ,but also how to use the key to access his treasure ,but not many are interested in that kind of treasure,

    to my understanding ,gold and diamonds and wisdom of truth do not require the same digging .and it is not the same people that digs for those things .

    #307424
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ July 26 2012,21:01)
    mike,

    you should go to school mike and study the nature of GOD


    jammin,

    My question still awaits an answer from you. Here it is again:

    When Paul wrote of Jesus existing in the “form of God”, what did he mean by the word “God”?

    A. A species of beings?

    B. A particular being?

    #307425
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ July 27 2012,10:24)
    Mike,

    Is that an answer to MY QUESTION???

    Is that How good you are???

    Here they are again!

    In that moment in time to open the door and there's no KEY!!!

    IS THE KEY more powerful then the treasure.??
    Or:
    IS THE KEY equally powerful to the treasure.??
    Or:
    IS THE KEY less powerful then the treasure??

    You either select one of these or else simply QUIT. SINCE YOU DO NOT WANT TO LOSE THE ARGUMENT!


    Charles,

    If “the treasure” in your analogy is God Almighty, then the answer is: Nothing can be as powerful as the Almighty God, so the key is definitely LESS POWERFUL than the treasure.

    But I do hope you'll remember that Aaron was once “the key”, just as Jesus is now. If you don't think Aaron was as powerful as “the treasure” he unlocked, then why would you think Jesus is?

    Always remember that God has given us a great PRIEST who intecedes on our behalf. That PRIEST of God is Jesus.

    #307426
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 27 2012,17:58)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2012,10:04)

    But it stands to reason that if he was existing in the form of God, emptied himself, and was made in the likeness of a human being, then he existed BEFORE being made in the likeness of a human being.

    It stands to reason that if Jesus had glory alongside his God before the world began, then he existed before the world began.

    It stands to reason that if all things in heaven and earth were created through Jesus, then he existed before those things were created through him.

    It stands to reason that if Jesus said he existed before Abraham, then he existed before he was born of Mary.


    Mike,

    YOUR “Gods” do not exist and have no power whatsoever!  :D


    Good answer to my points, Frank. ???

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