John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 8,981 through 9,000 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #307149
    limjunus
    Participant

    (GW)
    6 Although he was in the form of God and equal with God,
    he did not take advantage of this equality.

    We must be aware that the passages did not clearly said that Jesus Christ is God, instead the scriptures said “..and for us there is God but one, the Father.

    The verse 2:6 of Phil., is telling us that Jesus Christ has the quality and that quality is entitling him to be equal with God. So what quality it is?

    #307150
    limjunus
    Participant

    The verse 2:6 of Phil., is telling us that Jesus Christ has the quality and that quality is entitling him to be equal with God. So what quality it is? Why Jesus Christ need to be stripped that quality so that he could be suited to a Savior and to be another true God?

    #307152
    limjunus
    Participant

    Edited: “The verse 2:6 of Phil., is telling us that Jesus Christ has the quality and that quality is entitling him to be equal with God. So what quality it is? Why Jesus Christ need to be stripped that quality so that he could be suited to be a Savior and not to be another true God?

    #307155
    limjunus
    Participant

    Bottom line:
    Jesus Christ and his apostles already introduced to us who is the one and only true God. Ref: John 17:1-3 John 20:17 / 1 Cor. 8:4-6. Mal. 2:10

    What we are trying to talk to,.. if Jesus Christ is truly God?

    We must understand first what qualities (attributes) the true God has? then we can come into a safe conclusion if Jesus Christ is truly God.

    God qualities:

    Spirit, Immortal, Invisible,A holy Father, Creator of all things, Only One, No beginning, No ending, Could not be changed and so on.

    #307182
    Spock
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ July 26 2012,17:16)
    Bottom line:
    Jesus Christ and his apostles already introduced to us who is the one and only true God. Ref: John 17:1-3 John 20:17 / 1 Cor. 8:4-6. Mal. 2:10

    What we are trying to talk to,.. if Jesus Christ is truly God?

    We must understand first what qualities (attributes) the true God has? then we can come into a safe conclusion if Jesus Christ is truly God.

    God qualities:

    Spirit, Immortal, Invisible,A holy Father, Creator of all things, Only One, No beginning, No ending, Could not be changed and so on.


    This explains how and why the Father is manifested in his divine creator Son(s) such as our creator-brother Jesus Christ. “If you have seen me you have seen the Father.”

    “THE Paradise Trinity of eternal Deities facilitates the Father’s escape from personality absolutism. The Trinity perfectly associates the limitless expression of God’s infinite personal will with the absoluteness of Deity. The Eternal Son and the various Sons of divine origin, together with the Conjoint Actor and his universe children, effectively provide for the Father’s liberation from the limitations otherwise inherent in primacy, perfection, changelessness, eternity, universality, absoluteness, and infinity[/B/.

    (108.2) 10:0.2 The Paradise Trinity effectively provides for the full expression and perfect revelation of the eternal nature of Deity. The Stationary Sons of the Trinity likewise afford a full and perfect revelation of divine justice. The Trinity is Deity unity, and this unity rests eternally upon the absolute foundations of the divine oneness of the three original and co-ordinate and coexistent personalities, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit.

    [B]Self-Distribution of the First Source and Center

    (108.4) 10:1.1 It would seem that the Father, back in eternity, inaugurated a policy of profound self-distribution. There is inherent in the selfless, loving, and lovable nature of the Universal Father something which causes him to reserve to himself the exercise of only those powers and that authority which he apparently finds it impossible to delegate or to bestow.

    (108.5) 10:1.2 The Universal Father all along has divested himself of every part of himself that was bestowable on any other Creator or creature. He has delegated to his divine Sons and their associated intelligences every power and all authority that could be delegated. He has actually transferred to his Sovereign Sons, in their respective universes, every prerogative of administrative authority that was transferable. In the affairs of a local universe, he has made each Sovereign Creator Son just as perfect, competent, and authoritative as is the Eternal Son in the original and central universe. He has given away, actually bestowed, with the dignity and sanctity of personality possession, all of himself and all of his attributes, everything he possibly could divest himself of, in every way, in every age, in every place, and to every person, and in every universe except that of his central indwelling.

    (109.1) 10:1.3 Divine personality is not self-centered; self-distribution and sharing of personality characterize divine freewill selfhood. Creatures crave association with other personal creatures; Creators are moved to share divinity with their universe children; the personality of the Infinite is disclosed as the Universal Father, who shares reality of being and equality of self with two co-ordinate personalities, the Eternal Son and the Conjoint Actor.

    (109.2) 10:1.4 For knowledge concerning the Father’s personality and divine attributes we will always be dependent on the revelations of the Eternal Son, for when the conjoint act of creation was effected, when the Third Person of Deity sprang into personality existence and executed the combined concepts of his divine parents, the Father ceased to exist as the unqualified personality. With the coming into being of the Conjoint Actor and the materialization of the central core of creation, certain eternal changes took place. God gave himself as an absolute personality to his Eternal Son. Thus does the Father bestow the “personality of infinity” upon his only-begotten Son, while they both bestow the “conjoint personality” of their eternal union upon the Infinite Spirit.

    (109.3) 10:1.5 For these and other reasons beyond the concept of the finite mind, it is exceedingly difficult for the human creature to comprehend God’s infinite father-personality except as it is universally revealed in the Eternal Son and, with the Son, is universally active in the Infinite Spirit.

    (109.4) 10:1.6 Since the Paradise Sons of God visit the evolutionary worlds and sometimes even there dwell in the likeness of mortal flesh, and since these bestowals make it possible for mortal man actually to know something of the nature and character of divine personality, therefore must the creatures of the planetary spheres look to the bestowals of these Paradise Sons for reliable and trustworthy information regarding the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. UB

    Colter

    #307211
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    jammin,

    Listen for a minute………….

    The word “man” can be referring to a particular human being, OR to the species known as “mankind”. I am man because I am of the species known as “mankind”.

    Are you saying Jesus is God because is of the species known as “Godkind”? Because if “God” isn't referring to a species in Phil 2, then it has no choice but to be referring to a PERSON known as “God”.

    Which one do you think is right? Is it referring to a species, or an individual being?

    #307213
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 24 2012,18:50)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 25 2012,11:07)

    Your turn:

    1.  Where in scripture does it specifically say Jehovah pre-existed human beings?

    Please show the scriptures that EXPLICITELY state the things I asked about – if there are any.


    Mike,

    Since it was Father Yahweh Who caused we human beings to come into existence it only stands to simple reasoning that He existed before us.


    Frank,

    Your bolded words above make the very point I was going to make, but I thought I'd give you a chance to first produce any scriptures that specifically said the things in the three questions I asked you.

    It is clear that you CANNOT produce these scriptures, because they simply don't exist.

    My point is that it is useless for you to ask us where in scripture we are asked to believe that Jesus pre-existed, since we are never asked to believe that God pre-existed either.

    Does the fact that we are not SPECIFICALLY ASKED to believe these things mean these things are not clearly taught in scripture?  Judging from your bolded words above, the answer is “NO”.

    You are correct that we are clearly taught from scripture that God pre-existed humans, because it stands to reason He would exist BEFORE the beings He created.  So even though we are not SPECIFICALLY ASKED to believe such a thing, we believe it because of the OTHER scriptures that explain how God created man, etc.

    So, are we SPECIFICALLY ASKED to believe that Jesus pre-existed his time on earth?  No.  But it stands to reason that if he was existing in the form of God, emptied himself, and was made in the likeness of a human being, then he existed BEFORE being made in the likeness of a human being.

    It stands to reason that if Jesus had glory alongside his God before the world began, then he existed before the world began.

    It stands to reason that if all things in heaven and earth were created through Jesus, then he existed before those things were created through him.

    It stands to reason that if Jesus said he existed before Abraham, then he existed before he was born of Mary.

    Etc, etc, etc.

    Are you getting the point? It is the same exact point you yourself made to me in the bolded words above.  The point is that your questions, even though answered DIRECTLY and HONESTLY by me, do NOTHING in the way of proving Jesus didn't pre-exist.  (Just like my questions did nothing in the way of proving God didn't exist before humans.)

    Perhaps you could come up with some questions that actually DO prove something one way or the other, huh?

    #307214
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ July 25 2012,00:07)
    Phil. 2:6-8 KJV
    6.Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Mike and Frank: How do you understand it and where is your explanation about it?
    ??? ??? ??? ???


    Hi limjunis,

    I don't know much about your beliefs yet, but from your posts in this thread, I sense that we are not far apart.

    I too believe in only one “true God”, the Father.  I have never believed that the Son of God is the very God he is the Son of – like many people believe.

    As for the Phil 2 passage you quoted, I believe it speaks of Jesus existing in the form of God (meaning he was existing as a spirit being like his God) before being made into the likeness of a human being.

    Where you and I differ (in fact, where I differ with MOST people) is in the belief of many gods of whom Jehovah is THE God.  But instead of taking this thread off topic, I will start a topic about “many gods”.  I will look forward to your comments and questions in that thread.

    peace,
    mike

    #307219
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 02 2012,08:36)
    To All, (Link to thread)

    All these verses together PROVE that “The Word” is REALLY the HolySpirit”!

    Zech.4:6
    Zech.12:1

    Matt.13:19
    Mark 4:14
    Mark13:11
    Mark 13:19
    Luke 3:2
    Luke 8:11
    John 12:49
    John 14:24
    John 17:6-8
    John 17:14
    Acts 4:31
    Acts 10:36-38
    Acts 10:44
    Acts 11:15-16
    Acts 13:4-5
    Acts 13:47-49
    Acts 17:11
    Acts 20:32
    Romans 9:5-6
    Romans 10:17
    1Cor. 12:8-9
    1Cor. 14:36
    2Cor. 5:19
    2Cor. 6:6-7
    Gal.6:6
    Eph. 1:12-13
    Eph. 5:26
    Eph. 6:17
    Phillip.2:16
    1Tm.5:17-18
    2Tm.2:11-15
    2Tm.4:2
    Hebrews 1:1-2
    Hebrews 2:2-3
    Hebrews 4:2-6
    Hebrews 4:8-12
    Hebrews 5:13-14
    Hebrews 7:28
    Hebrews 11:3
    Hebrews 12:19
    James 1:18
    1Peter 1:21-23
    1Peter 2:6-8
    1John 2:7-10
    Rev.1:2
    Rev.1:9
    Rev.19:11-16
    Rev.20:4

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    EDJ.

    For how long have you been studying the scriptures? and the others? strange flesh?

    All those scriptures you quoted?? is mind boggling to me,saying it is about the Holy spirit? Well; its not.

    wakeup.

    #307222
    Wakeup
    Participant

    And why did you purposedly leave out the most important scriptures? Like John ch.14.15.16?
    Is this intensional? to deceive the brothers?

    wakeup.

    #307235
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ July 25 2012,14:28)

    Quote
    “Equality” would required that we have to go through God to get to Jesus as well as going through Jesus to get to God.  But that is not the case, is it?

    Mike,

    If for example there is a HOUSE which is locked, and in this house there is a TREASURE, and in the same time no one has the KEY because it is lost, that treasure is USELESS.

    Now answer:

                                                  IS THE KEY  more powerful then the treasure.??
                                                  Or:
                                                  IS THE KEY  equally powerful to the treasure.??
                                                  Or:
                                                  IS THE KEY  less powerful then the treasure??

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Hi Charles,

    The treasure is the ultimate goal, the key is the means to an end.

    Let's use your analogy for God and Aaron.  Aaron was the key in the wilderness after Egypt, and God was the treasure.  Who was more powerful?  The God who could forgive the sins?  Or the priest through whom the sacrifices for forgivement were made?

    Charles, try to remember that Jesus is the High Priest of God, like Aaron was. Surely God Almighty is not His own priest.

    #307262
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 26 2012,15:09)
    Janmin

    Quote
    t,

    read phil 2.6 over and over again. pls wear eyeglasses

    it seems that you do not read the bible ;only phil 2.6 over and over again,and can not see any thing be on that single scripture, so you are stuck ,why do you ask others to get stuck like you,??? you are the only one that stand still in Gods word .

    were his that other scripture ??? :(


    dont you see phil 2.6??

    it says that Christ was in the form of GOD, meaning he is GOD.
    he became flesh.

    not god boy but GOD.

    limjunus,

    we still have GOD in heaven and that is the father.
    the son became human who is also GOD by nature.

    john 1.1 says that
    When the world began, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God. – John 1:1 (BNT)

    what is that nature??
    let me post again john 1.1
    John 1:1

    New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
    John 1
    The Word Became Human
    1 In the beginning, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    that is the nature GOD!

    did paul know this truth??

    let me post phil 2.6
    Philippians 2:6

    New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

    6 In his very nature he was God.

    Philippians 2:6

    New International Version (NIV)

    6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,

    i believe what the bible says

    mike,

    you believe that you onyl have one form or nature and that is your human nature.
    but for christ, you did not believe that he has the same nature like his father. he is GOD and not god boy.

    GOD by nature is not created.

    you should go to school mike and study the nature of GOD

    #307263
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ July 27 2012,21:01)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 26 2012,15:09)
    Janmin

    Quote
    t,

    read phil 2.6 over and over again. pls wear eyeglasses

    it seems that you do not read the bible ;only phil 2.6 over and over again,and can not see any thing be on that single scripture, so you are stuck ,why do you ask others to get stuck like you,??? you are the only one that stand still in Gods word .

    were his that other scripture ??? :(


    dont you see phil 2.6??

    it says that Christ was in the form of GOD, meaning he is GOD.
    he became flesh.

    not god boy but GOD.

    limjunus,

    we still have GOD in heaven and that is the father.
    the son became human who is also GOD by nature.

    john 1.1 says that
    When the world began, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God. – John 1:1 (BNT)

    what is that nature??
    let me post again john 1.1
    John 1:1

    New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
    John 1
    The Word Became Human
    1 In the beginning, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    that is the nature GOD!

    did paul know this truth??

    let me post phil 2.6
    Philippians 2:6

    New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

    6 In his very nature he was God.

    Philippians 2:6

    New International Version (NIV)

    6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,

    i believe what the bible says

    mike,

    you believe that you onyl have one form or nature and that is your human nature.
    but for christ, you did not believe that he has the same nature like his father. he is GOD and not god boy.

    GOD by nature is not created.

    you should go to school mike and study the nature of GOD


    :ghostface: :ghostface:

    try to explain all creation and how it happen and by whom,

    and why the promise to Abraham ,and why saving the nation out of Egypt by Moses ,or was it Moses ?? and why it took so long before the messiah at to come ???and how can a man Jesus save us from our sins ??? and if you believe that Christ is God why is now that God can die ??? and why would God save man when at the flood he was ready to kill them all ???what is it that would solve all dilemmas within Gods creation ???

    and try not to make the scriptures twist and dance on their own or with clever wording who do not make sense .

    I look forward to your answers

    #307270
    jammin
    Participant

    GOD became Flesh or was manifest in the flesh
    1 Timothy 3:16

    King James Version (KJV)

    16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world,

    the body died.

    i am not twisting the bible. that is a word for word in the bible.
    you just cant accept that truth boy.

    if your father is a MAN by nature, you are also a MAN and not an animal boy

    #307273
    jammin
    Participant

    i know you believe that Christ is the WORD in john 1.1
    in john 1.14 it says that the WORD became flesh. the WORD was GOD, john said that.

    if you know logic, you are MAN by nature just like your father.

    Christ is GOD by nature just like his father.

    GOD has a son and the bible says that. that is Christ, his one and ONLY son

    do you believe Christ is the only son of GOD according to john 1.14?
    John 1:14

    New International Version (NIV)

    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    yes or no? i need your answer

    #307279
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ July 26 2012,08:58)
    Hi Jammin,

    How does one go about taking advantage of equality?  ???

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Jammin?

    #307280
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ July 27 2012,10:47)
    EDJ.

    For how long have you been studying the scriptures?

    wakeup.


    Hi Wakeup,

    Over 40 years.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #307281
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ July 27 2012,10:57)
    And why did you purposedly leave out the most important scriptures? Like John ch.14.15.16?
    Is this intensional? to deceive the brothers?

    wakeup.


    Hi Wakeup,

    What are you driving at?       …please elaborate

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #307312
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ July 27 2012,15:43)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 26 2012,08:58)
    Hi Jammin,

    How does one go about taking advantage of equality?  ???

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Jammin?


    do you understand the meaning of equal in phil 2.6??

    pls elaborate your question

    #307313
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ July 26 2012,08:58)

    Quote (jammin @ July 25 2012,22:59)
    6     Although he was in the form of God and equal with God,
           he did not take advantage of this equality.

    make your own bible boy.


    Hi Jammin,

    How does one go about taking advantage of equality?  ???

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Look at your quote  –  and “PLEASE” answer my question.

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