John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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    Frank4YAHWEH
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    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?

    Exodus 32

    By Voy Wilks

    3/9/98

    The Hebrew word elohim, even though a plural, is in most places treated as a singular when referring to the one and only Yahweh, indicated by singular pronouns which accompany Elohim; I, me, mine, he, him, his, etc. Sometimes elohim appears in Scriptures even when referring to one pagan god (idol). This is made clear in Exodus chapter 32.

    The Israelites said to Aaron, “Up, make us gods which shall go before us, …” Ex. 32:1, KJV). So Aaron fashioned a golden calf and the Israelites said, “”These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt!” (Ex. 32:4,8, KJV).

    Gods (Ex. 32:1,4,8) comes from the word elohim, of course, If read only casually, these verses would seem to indicate more than one god, or idol, had been made. But notice the remaining words in this bit of history:

    0     Aaron fashioned it (the elohim) with a tool (Ex. 32:4).

    0     Aaron built an altar for it {not them} (Ex. 32:5).

    0     For they have made a molten calf {only one calf} (Ex. 32:8).

    0     And have worshiped it (singular, Ex. 32:8).

    0     Moses entered the camp and saw the calf (only one calf, Ex. 32:19).

    0     Moses destroyed the calf (singular, not calves, plural, Ex. 32:20).

    0     There came out this calf (singular, Ex. 32:24).

    0     Yahweh plagued the people because they made the calf (singular, Ex. 32:35).

    0     Yea, when they had made them a molten calf, and said, “This is thy god [elohim]  that brought thee up out
    of Egypt …” (Neh. 9:18.

    0     They made a calf [only one calf]  in Horeb, and worshiped the molten image” (only one image, Ps. 106:19).

    0     They made a calf (only one calf) in those days (Acts 7:41).

    Several times the word elohim appears in these verses, More than a dozen times, words are employed which indicate clearly that elohim can be used as singular as well as a plural. This also come through clearly in another quotation from Moses, as follows:

    “And I looked, and, behold, ye … had made you a molten calf: … And I took your sin, the molten calf which ye made, and burnt it with fire, and stamped it, and ground it very small, until it was small as dust …” (Duet. 9:12,16,21).

    Only one god (elohim), and only one calf; the golden calf.

    Note: The word “these” in the phrase, “these be thy gods” (Ex. 32:4,8), can also be translated “this,” as indicated in Neh. 9:18, and in Strong's Concordance. Obviously, Ex. 32:4 should have been translated, “This is the god who brought you up out of the land of Egypt.” On another occasion, a single calf (one calf) was referred to as elohim:

    “I have spurned your calf  O Samaria. … A workman made it; it *is not god [elohim]. The calf of Samaria shall be broken to pieces” (Hosea 8:5,6).

    * Webmaster's Note: The word “god [elohim]” in the above verse is not in reference to Yahweh as “Elohim”, but is in reference to an idol god [elohim] with no power, strength or might and can also be translated as follows:

    “… A workman made it; it has no power [strength, might] whatsoever.”

    End Webmaster's Note

    Moses An Elohim To Aaron And Pharaoh

    But Moses said to Yahweh, Oh my Yahweh, I am not eloquent, … Then  … Yahweh … said, “Is there not Aaron your brother, the Levite? … He shall speak for you to the people; and he shall be a mouth for you, and you [Moses] shall be to him as *god [elohim]” (Ex. 4:10-16).

    And Yahweh said to Moses, “See, I make you as *god [elohim] to Pharaoh; …” (Ex. 7:1).

    * Webmaster's Note: The above two verses can also be translated in the following manner:

    “… and you [Moses] shall be to him as *one with power [authority]” (Ex. 4:10-16).

    … “See, I make you as *one with power [authority] to Pharaoh; … (Ex. 7:1).

    Moses as a spokesman for Yahweh communicated to Aaron what Yahweh had communicated to him. Aaron in turn acted as a spokesman for Moses in communicating to Pharaoh what Yahweh had said to Moses, since Aaron was more eloquent in speaking than Moses.

    End Webmaster's Note

    From these Scriptures we see that Moses became an elohim to Pharaoh and to his brother Aaron. Question: What was the numerical value of Moses?  Did he consist of one, two or three persons? All must agree; there was only one Moses. Nevertheless,  the ONE man, Moses, was elohim (plural, indicating authority and majesty). Again, there was only one Moses, not two or three.

    Chemosh An Elohim

    “Will you not possess what Chemosh your elohim gives you to possess?” (Judges 11:24).

    Chemosh (singular) was an elohim.

    Dagon An Elohim

    The second time Dagon fell over, his head and hands were broken off, putting fear into the Philistines (1 Sam. 5:1-6). Notice in the next verse the use of the word elohim (plural), even though there was only one statue. The men of Ashdod said,

    “The ark of Elohim must not remain with us; for his hand is heavy upon us, and upon Dagon our elohim” (1 Sam. 5:7, RSV).

    Ashtoreth, Chemosh & Milcom

    “… because he [Israel] has forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess [elohim] of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god (elohim), of Moab, and Milcom the god [elohim] of the Ammorites, and have not walked in My ways …” (1 Kings 11:33).

    IN THE MAJORITY OF CASES, ELOHIM EQUALS ONLY ONE

    The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

    Eerdman's Publishing Company, Volume Two, 1984, Page 1254

    “One of the oldest and most widely distributed terms for deity known to the human race is el, with its derivations 'Elim, 'Elohim, and Eloah. Like theos, Deus and God, it is a generic term, including every member of the class deity. It may even denote a position of honor and authority among men. …  It is, therefore, a general term expressing majesty and authority, … By far the most frequent form used by O. T. writers is the plural, 'Elohim, but they use it regularly with singular verbs and adjectives to denote a singular idea. Several explanations have been offered of this usage of a plural term to denote a singular idea – it expresses the fullness and manifoldness of the divine nature, or that it is a plural of majesty used in the manner of royal persons, …” (Some of the emphasis was added by Voy).

    The New Bible Dictionary

    Eerdman's Publishing Company, 1979, Page 478

    “Elohim: Though a plural form, Elohim can be treated as a singular, in which case it means the one supreme deity, …”

    Theological Word Book of the Old Testament

    By Harris, Archer & Waltke, Volume One, 1980, page 44

    “'Elohim. God gods, judges, angels. … This word, which is generally viewed as the plural of eloah,' is found more frequently in Scripture than either 'el' or 'eloah' for the true God. The plural ending is usually described as a plural of majesty and not intended as a true plural of God. This is seen in the fact that the noun 'elohim' is consistently used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular.”

    Footnote in the Emphasized Bible – Genesis 1:1

    By J. B. Rotherham, 1897

    “Hebrew: 'elohim. “Probably a plural of quality = 'God-head, ' as our 'Lordship' = Lord (Davies, H.L.. p 9). It should be carefully observed, that although 'elohim is plural in form, yet when, as here, it is construed with a verb in the singular, it is naturally singular in sense, especially since the 'plural of quality' or 'excellence'  abounds in Hebrew in cases where the reference is undeniably to something that which must be understood in the singular number.”

    The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary

    Zondervan Publishing House, 1982, Page 248

    “Elohim, the most frequent Hebrew word for God (over 2,500 times in the O. T.). Elohim is plural in form, but is singular in
    construction (used with singular verbs and adjectives). When applied to the one true God, the plural is due to the Hebrew idiom of a plural of magnitude or majesty.”

    In the majority of cases, the word elohim is used in Scriptures as a singular term. There is only ONE (one) Yahweh, not two, three, or a dozen. There is no Trinity. There is no Twinity. There is no duality. Instead, there is only ONE and only one true Deity. That one true Deity is Yahweh, just as Yahshua reported:

    And one of the scribes … asked him, “What commandment is first of all?” Yahshua answered, “The first is, “Here O Israel: Yahweh our Elohim, Yahweh is ONE; …” (Mark 12:28-30; quoted from Deut. 6:4).

    From these Scriptures we see that it is not optional. We are commanded to believe that Yahweh is ONE (O-N-E), not two or three.

    “And this is eternal life, that we know thee the only true El, and Yahshua Messiah whom thou has sent” (John 17:3).

    Scriptures reveal that elohim can be correctly used in referring to one, or to more than one object or person. Since many Scriptures proclaim there is only one Yahweh, then we can be sure the phrase, Yahweh the Elohim of Israel” refers to only one person, one being, one El, one Deity. There is no other (Neh. 9:6; Isa. 43:10-13; 44:6; 45:18,22; John 17:3).

    “To you [Israel] it was shown, that you might know that Yahweh is Elohim; there is no other besides him [not them or us]. Out of heaven he let you here his voice … know therefore this day, and lay it to your heart, that Yahweh is Elohim in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other” (Deut. 4:35-39, RSV).

    The Books of Deuteronomy and Psalms confirm that the title Elohim is sometimes used as a singular noun:

    “For Yahweh your God (El) is God (Elohim) of gods (elohim) and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the terrible God (El), …” (Deut. 10:17, RSV).

    “Oh give thanks to the God (Elohim) of gods (elohim), for his steadfast love endures forever” (Ps. 136:2, RSV).

    The one Yahweh is the Elohim (singular) of elohim (plural); the GOD of gods. Te ONE Yahweh, this ONE  Elohim, is referred to 36 times throughout Psalm 136 by singular pronouns; HE, HIS, and HIM, indicating one person.

    We see then, elohim, even thou technically a plural, often refers to the ONE Yahweh, the ONE true El.

    Conclusion

    The evidence is conclusive: The word elohim is sometimes singular. This is certainly true when referring to Yahweh (Deut 6:4,5; Mark 12:28-30). There is only ONE (one) Yahweh, not two, three, or a dozen.

    For further study, see “Elohim: Singular Or Plural?” Other free literature is available from:

    Assembly of Yahweh (7th Day)
    Box 509, Cisco, TX 76437
    SOURCE

    #291946
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Frank,
    But you mainly post the cut and pasted thoughts of yourself and others.
    Does anything good happen except by the Spirit of God?
    Most arguments can end right there

    #291950
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2012,11:37)
    Hi Frank,
    But you mainly post the cut and pasted thoughts of yourself and others.
    Does anything good happen except by the Spirit of God?
    Most arguments can end right there


    Nick,

    I am growing tired of your short and snide (especially the kind that you made against me yesterday) remarks and those of others who are uneducated as you. If you keep making short and snide remarks to me, then you will only receive the same from me in return. Now go lay down somewhere and leave me the hell alone! :D

    #291953
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2012,06:20)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 12 2012,18:11)
    It does not follow that because Jesus is called by the name of the Word of God in Revelations 19:13 that he is the Word spoken of in John 1:1.


    It absolutely DOES follow if you'd take off the blinders, Kerwin.

    Who else had the glory of God's only begotten Son when he became flesh?  

    Who else was with God in the beginning, having glory of his own?  

    What other “Word” did John and the others see with their own eyes and handle with their own hands?

    Who else said, “I came down from heaven”?

    Who else was existing in the form of God before being made into the likeness of a human being?

    The fact that the identity of the Word is spelled out for you in Revelation 19:13 makes me wonder if you truly can't see it, or if you purposely refuse to see it for your own personal reasons.


    Mike,

    The abstract concept known as the Word of God works better when you understand personifications.

    #291954
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,06:16)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2012,10:32)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,05:20)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 12 2012,15:07)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 12 2012,05:20)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2012,10:12)
    Hi FRank,
    The Word was of the Spirit and only became flesh in Jesus at the Jordan making him Jesus Christ, the Word.


    Nick,

    Father Yahweh's word was revealed in the flesh long before Yahshua came on the scene. Remember that Yahshua is the prophet like unto Moshe.


    Frank,

    Jesus is greater than Mosses even though he is also a prophet like him.


    kerwin,

    I made no mention that one was greater than the other.


    Frank,

    Jesus is the Way; Abraham is not; who is the greater?


    kerwin,

    I made no mention of Abraham in my post. I did make mention of Moshe though.

    Both Abraham and Moshe were also the way to Yahweh in their time periods just as Yahshua is the way in this last time period.

    You asks who is the greater of the prophets, right? Note what is said in the following:

    Concerning Moshe:

    Now Yahshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moshe had laid his hands on him. So the Ysrylites listened to him and did what Yahweh had commanded Moshe. Since then, no prophet has risen in Ysryl like Moshe, whom Yahweh knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders Yahweh sent him to do in Egypt–to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land (Deuteronomy 34:9-11).

    Concerning Yahchanan the Immerser

    I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than Yahchanan; yet the one who is least in the Kingdom of Yahweh is greater than he (Lukyah 7:28).

    I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than Yahchanan the Immerser; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Yahweh he is greater than he (Mattithyah 11:11).

    Note also that Yahshua said that the apostles, his students [“disciples”], and those who come after them would do greater works than he had done:

    I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father (Yahcahnan 14:12).


    Frank,

    Jesus is the Way they do greater works than he, himself.

    #291955
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2012,12:16)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,06:16)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2012,10:32)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,05:20)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 12 2012,15:07)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 12 2012,05:20)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2012,10:12)
    Hi FRank,
    The Word was of the Spirit and only became flesh in Jesus at the Jordan making him Jesus Christ, the Word.


    Nick,

    Father Yahweh's word was revealed in the flesh long before Yahshua came on the scene. Remember that Yahshua is the prophet like unto Moshe.


    Frank,

    Jesus is greater than Mosses even though he is also a prophet like him.


    kerwin,

    I made no mention that one was greater than the other.


    Frank,

    Jesus is the Way; Abraham is not; who is the greater?


    kerwin,

    I made no mention of Abraham in my post. I did make mention of Moshe though.

    Both Abraham and Moshe were also the way to Yahweh in their time periods just as Yahshua is the way in this last time period.

    You asks who is the greater of the prophets, right? Note what is said in the following:

    Concerning Moshe:

    Now Yahshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moshe had laid his hands on him. So the Ysrylites listened to him and did what Yahweh had commanded Moshe. Since then, no prophet has risen in Ysryl like Moshe, whom Yahweh knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders Yahweh sent him to do in Egypt–to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land (Deuteronomy 34:9-11).

    Concerning Yahchanan the Immerser

    I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than Yahchanan; yet the one who is least in the Kingdom of Yahweh is greater than he (Lukyah 7:28).

    I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than Yahchanan the Immerser; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Yahweh he is greater than he (Mattithyah 11:11).

    Note also that Yahshua said that the apostles, his students [“disciples”], and those who come after them would do greater works than he had done:

    I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father (Yahcahnan 14:12).


    Frank,

    Jesus is the Way they do greater works than he, himself.


    kerwin,

    YOUR “Jesus” is not the way that I will ever go!

    #291961
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi ,
    All in Christ Jesus are greater than John as he is greater than John.

    #291966
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,07:20)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2012,12:16)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,06:16)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2012,10:32)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,05:20)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 12 2012,15:07)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 12 2012,05:20)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2012,10:12)
    Hi FRank,
    The Word was of the Spirit and only became flesh in Jesus at the Jordan making him Jesus Christ, the Word.


    Nick,

    Father Yahweh's word was revealed in the flesh long before Yahshua came on the scene. Remember that Yahshua is the prophet like unto Moshe.


    Frank,

    Jesus is greater than Mosses even though he is also a prophet like him.


    kerwin,

    I made no mention that one was greater than the other.


    Frank,

    Jesus is the Way; Abraham is not; who is the greater?


    kerwin,

    I made no mention of Abraham in my post. I did make mention of Moshe though.

    Both Abraham and Moshe were also the way to Yahweh in their time periods just as Yahshua is the way in this last time period.

    You asks who is the greater of the prophets, right? Note what is said in the following:

    Concerning Moshe:

    Now Yahshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moshe had laid his hands on him. So the Ysrylites listened to him and did what Yahweh had commanded Moshe. Since then, no prophet has risen in Ysryl like Moshe, whom Yahweh knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders Yahweh sent him to do in Egypt–to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land (Deuteronomy 34:9-11).

    Concerning Yahchanan the Immerser

    I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than Yahchanan; yet the one who is least in the Kingdom of Yahweh is greater than he (Lukyah 7:28).

    I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than Yahchanan the Immerser; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Yahweh he is greater than he (Mattithyah 11:11).

    Note also that Yahshua said that the apostles, his students [“disciples”], and those who come after them would do greater works than he had done:

    I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father (Yahcahnan 14:12).


    Frank,

    Jesus is the Way they do greater works than he, himself.


    kerwin,

    YOUR “Jesus” is not the way that I will ever go!


    Frank,

    That is sad for all that go through him will be like God in true righteousness and holiness. That is why those who love sin will not come into the light.

    God promises those that enter the new covenant they will stop sinning if they persevere.

    #291974
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ April 12 2012,19:02)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2012,06:20)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 12 2012,18:11)
    It does not follow that because Jesus is called by the name of the Word of God in Revelations 19:13 that he is the Word spoken of in John 1:1.


    It absolutely DOES follow if you'd take off the blinders, Kerwin.

    Who else had the glory of God's only begotten Son when he became flesh?  

    Who else was with God in the beginning, having glory of his own?  

    What other “Word” did John and the others see with their own eyes and handle with their own hands?

    Who else said, “I came down from heaven”?

    Who else was existing in the form of God before being made into the likeness of a human being?

    The fact that the identity of the Word is spelled out for you in Revelation 19:13 makes me wonder if you truly can't see it, or if you purposely refuse to see it for your own personal reasons.


    Mike,

    The abstract concept known as the Word of God works better when you understand personifications.


    Yes Kerwin,

    We are all well aware that you like to change clearly worded scriptures into abstract nonsensicalities.  (I think I made that last word up just now.  :) )

    Jesus is the Word of God because he speaks the words of God to others.  Just as the spokesman for the King of Abyssinia was “the Word of the King”.

    There is no reason to create an abstract, philisophical debate over such a clear scriptural teaching.  There are no scriptural reasons to change clear teachings such as those in John 17:5, Phil 2, Col 1:15, Rev 3:14 and John 6:36 into abstract oddities – only personal reasons.

    #291993
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2012,09:01)
    Hi Jammin,
    As Ed quotes we, like JESUS CHRIST, have been begotten of the WORD OF TRUTH


    Amen, brother!

    #291995
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,10:24)
    Jammin,

    Maybe you should make up you mind whether you believe the word is YOUR “God” or it is the son of YOUR “God”.
    :D


    Hi Frank,

    EXCELLENT POINT!

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    holycitybiblecode.org

    #291998
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2012,11:20)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 12 2012,18:11)
    It does not follow that because Jesus is called by the name of the Word of God in Revelations 19:13 that he is the Word spoken of in John 1:1.


    It absolutely DOES follow if you'd take off the blinders, Kerwin.

    Who else had the glory of God's only begotten Son when he became flesh?  

    Who else was with God in the beginning, having glory of his own?  

    What other “Word” did John and the others see with their own eyes and handle with their own hands?

    Who else said, “I came down from heaven”?

    Who else was existing in the form of God before being made into the likeness of a human being?

    The fact that the identity of the Word is spelled out for you in Revelation 19:13 makes me wonder if you truly can't see it, or if you purposely refuse to see it for your own personal reasons.


    Rudimentary logic  vs  Rudimentary logic

    #292000
    Ed J
    Participant

    Ding, let the match begin.

    #292002
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2012,08:13)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 12 2012,19:02)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2012,06:20)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 12 2012,18:11)
    It does not follow that because Jesus is called by the name of the Word of God in Revelations 19:13 that he is the Word spoken of in John 1:1.


    It absolutely DOES follow if you'd take off the blinders, Kerwin.

    Who else had the glory of God's only begotten Son when he became flesh?  

    Who else was with God in the beginning, having glory of his own?  

    What other “Word” did John and the others see with their own eyes and handle with their own hands?

    Who else said, “I came down from heaven”?

    Who else was existing in the form of God before being made into the likeness of a human being?

    The fact that the identity of the Word is spelled out for you in Revelation 19:13 makes me wonder if you truly can't see it, or if you purposely refuse to see it for your own personal reasons.


    Mike,

    The abstract concept known as the Word of God works better when you understand personifications.


    Yes Kerwin,

    We are all well aware that you like to change clearly worded scriptures into abstract nonsensicalities.  (I think I made that last word up just now.  :) )

    Jesus is the Word of God because he speaks the words of God to others.  Just as the spokesman for the King of Abyssinia was “the Word of the King”.

    There is no reason to create an abstract, philisophical debate over such a clear scriptural teaching.  There are no scriptural reasons to change clear teachings such as those in John 17:5, Phil 2, Col 1:15, Rev 3:14 and John 6:36 into abstract oddities – only personal reasons.


    Mike,

    You answers testify to your lack of knowledge.  It is easily remedied if you are humble.

    Quote
    Abstract terms refer to ideas or concepts; they have no physical referents.

    [Stop right here and reread that definition. Many readers will find it both vague and boring. Even if you find it interesting, it may be hard to pin down the meaning. To make the meaning of this abstract language clearer, we need some examples.]

    Examples of abstract terms include love, success, freedom, good, moral, democracy, and any -ism (chauvinism, Communism, feminism, racism, sexism). These terms are fairly common and familiar, and because we recognize them we may imagine that we understand them—but we really can't, because the meanings won't stay still.

    Quote
    Concrete terms refer to objects or events that are available to the senses. [This is directly opposite to abstract terms, which name things that are not available to the senses.] Examples of concrete terms include spoon, table, velvet eye patch, nose ring, sinus mask, green, hot, walking. Because these terms refer to objects or events we can see or hear or feel or taste or smell, their meanings are pretty stable. If you ask me what I mean by the word spoon, I can pick up a spoon and show it to you. [I can't pick up a freedom and show it to you, or point to a small democracy crawling along a window sill. I can measure sand and oxygen by weight and volume, but I can't collect a pound of responsibility or a liter of moral outrage.]

    Here is my source.

    I understand these quotes; do you?

    #292003
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2012,06:03)
    Hi Jammin,
    You say
    “the logos (WORD) is the son of GOD and not the HS or the father.”

    Do you know THREE?
    That is the teaching of the whore.

     come out of her


    you said:That is the teaching of the whore.

    come out of her
    —————-
    that is why im not accepting your doctrine.

    #292004
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,10:24)

    Quote (jammin @ April 12 2012,14:27)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 12 2012,12:08)

    Quote (jammin @ April 12 2012,11:11)
    frank,

    where is your version that says that the word in john 1.1 is the father? lOL

    nick,

    where can i read in john 1.1 that the word is the HS? LOL


    jammin,

    I am never proclaimed that Scripture says that the word in Yahchanan [John] 1:1 is the Father. What I have simply proclaimed is what Father Yahweh's prophetic inspired word teaches, and that is that His word is simply that, His word. Nowhere in Scripture does it ever teach or say that Father Yahweh's word was a separate being that existed apart from Him in the beginning that was a creator or a co-creator with Him. Scripture clearly teaches that Father Yahweh “ALONE”, “BY HIMSELF” with “NO ONE BESIDE HIM” created the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. His son Yahshua is never once recorded in the so-called “New Testament” as proclaiming that he had created ANYTHING. In fact, in this same section of Scripture Yahshua credited his and our Father Yahweh for the creation of the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM.

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?


    thanks for admitting that the word is not the father.

    john says the Word was GOD.
    in verse 14 the word is the son of GOD.

    he was with in the beginning.

    sorry boy.. you must study hard first.


    Jammin,

    I never admitted that the word was not the Father.

    Maybe you should make up you mind whether you believe the word is YOUR “God” or it is the son of YOUR “God”.
    :D


    you said:I am never proclaimed that Scripture says that the word in Yahchanan [John] 1:1 is the Father

    now you said:I never admitted that the word was not the Father.
    ——-
    you should take some vitamins LOL
    you are confused

    the bible says that the father and the son have the same nature, GOD.that is what the bible says.
    the father is GOD by nature.
    the son is also GOD by nature.

    phil 2.5-6 Let Christ himself be your example as to what your attitude should be. For he, who had always been God by nature,

    sorry boy but you need to study hard LOL

    #292054
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2012,13:02)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,07:20)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2012,12:16)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,06:16)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2012,10:32)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,05:20)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 12 2012,15:07)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 12 2012,05:20)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2012,10:12)
    Hi FRank,
    The Word was of the Spirit and only became flesh in Jesus at the Jordan making him Jesus Christ, the Word.


    Nick,

    Father Yahweh's word was revealed in the flesh long before Yahshua came on the scene. Remember that Yahshua is the prophet like unto Moshe.


    Frank,

    Jesus is greater than Mosses even though he is also a prophet like him.


    kerwin,

    I made no mention that one was greater than the other.


    Frank,

    Jesus is the Way; Abraham is not; who is the greater?


    kerwin,

    I made no mention of Abraham in my post. I did make mention of Moshe though.

    Both Abraham and Moshe were also the way to Yahweh in their time periods just as Yahshua is the way in this last time period.

    You asks who is the greater of the prophets, right? Note what is said in the following:

    Concerning Moshe:

    Now Yahshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moshe had laid his hands on him. So the Ysrylites listened to him and did what Yahweh had commanded Moshe. Since then, no prophet has risen in Ysryl like Moshe, whom Yahweh knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders Yahweh sent him to do in Egypt–to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land (Deuteronomy 34:9-11).

    Concerning Yahchanan the Immerser

    I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than Yahchanan; yet the one who is least in the Kingdom of Yahweh is greater than he (Lukyah 7:28).

    I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than Yahchanan the Immerser; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Yahweh he is greater than he (Mattithyah 11:11).

    Note also that Yahshua said that the apostles, his students [“disciples”], and those who come after them would do greater works than he had done:

    I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father (Yahcahnan 14:12).


    Frank,

    Jesus is the Way they do greater works than he, himself.


    kerwin,

    YOUR “Jesus” is not the way that I will ever go!


    Frank,

    That is sad for all that go through him will be like God in true righteousness and holiness.  That is why those who love sin will not come into the light.

    God promises those that enter the new covenant they will stop sinning if they persevere.


    kerwin,

    I certainly have no desire whatsoever to be like YOUR “God”.

    One stops sinning when they repent and begin to obey Father Yahweh instruction (torah, law, commandment, precept, charge, teaching).

    Father Yahweh's Instruction (Torah, Law, Commandment, Teaching)

    #292056
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ April 13 2012,14:05)
    Ding, let the match begin.


    Ed J,

    You have the right idea about this forum! Nothing but short bouts of fighting going on here in foolish words. The only difference between an actual boxing match and what goes on here is that here the fight never ends.

    #292064
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 14 2012,05:06)

    Quote (Ed J @ April 13 2012,14:05)

    Quote (Ed J @ April 13 2012,14:02)

       Rudimentary logic  vs  Rudimentary logic


    Ding, let the match begin.


    Ed J,

    You have the right idea about this forum! Nothing but short bouts of fighting going on here in foolish words.
    The only difference between an actual boxing match and what goes on here is that here the fight never ends.


    Hi Frank,

    All rudimentary logic needs is a better to understanding of “the big picture”.
    Arguing over segmented understanding is irrelevant .

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #292076
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 13 2012,15:22)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,10:24)

    Quote (jammin @ April 12 2012,14:27)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 12 2012,12:08)

    Quote (jammin @ April 12 2012,11:11)
    frank,

    where is your version that says that the word in john 1.1 is the father? lOL

    nick,

    where can i read in john 1.1 that the word is the HS? LOL


    jammin,

    I am never proclaimed that Scripture says that the word in Yahchanan [John] 1:1 is the Father. What I have simply proclaimed is what Father Yahweh's prophetic inspired word teaches, and that is that His word is simply that, His word. Nowhere in Scripture does it ever teach or say that Father Yahweh's word was a separate being that existed apart from Him in the beginning that was a creator or a co-creator with Him. Scripture clearly teaches that Father Yahweh “ALONE”, “BY HIMSELF” with “NO ONE BESIDE HIM” created the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. His son Yahshua is never once recorded in the so-called “New Testament” as proclaiming that he had created ANYTHING. In fact, in this same section of Scripture Yahshua credited his and our Father Yahweh for the creation of the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM.

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?


    thanks for admitting that the word is not the father.

    john says the Word was GOD.
    in verse 14 the word is the son of GOD.

    he was with in the beginning.

    sorry boy.. you must study hard first.


    Jammin,

    I never admitted that the word was not the Father.

    Maybe you should make up you mind whether you believe the word is YOUR “God” or it is the son of YOUR “God”.
    :D


    you said:I am never proclaimed that Scripture says that the word in Yahchanan [John] 1:1 is the Father

    now you said:I never admitted that the word was not the Father.
    ——-
    you should take some vitamins LOL
    you are confused

    the bible says that the father and the son have the same nature, GOD.that is what the bible says.
    the father is GOD by nature.
    the son is also GOD by nature.

    phil 2.5-6 Let Christ himself be your example as to what your attitude should be. For he, who had always been God by nature,

    sorry boy but you need to study hard LOL


    jammin,

    Nowhere in Scripture does it ACTUALLY SAY (and I QUOTE, which is indicated by QUOTATION MARKS [“…”]) “the word in Yahchanan [John] 1:1 is the Father”, nor does Scripture ACTUALLY SAY (and I QUOTE, which is indicated by QUOTATION MARKS [“…”]) “The word is the son”. What many erroneously attempt to indicate to me here in this forum is that Father Yahweh's word is in actuality a separate being that existed apart from Him in the beginning that was a creator or a co-creator with Him. This is nothing but pure foolishness! As I have said many times before here in this forum, is that Father Yahweh's word is just that, His word. Just as my word is not a separate being apart from me, Father Yahweh's word is also not a separate being apart from Him. My word is just that, my word and Father Yahweh's word is just that, His word. Words have power, strength, and might and especially Father Yahweh's word. This is what is truly indicated in Yahchanan [John] 1:1.

    In the beginning was the word [Father Yahweh's word], and the word [Father Yahweh's word] was with Yahweh, and the word was  mighty [authoritative, powerful, had strength, which has been translated as “God” in most translations]. The word “God” comes from the Hebrew root word 'yl' or 'wl' and means power, authority, might, or strength.

    The word “God” is clearly in reference to Father Yahweh, since he is the sources of all power and not in reference to His son, Yahshua, since His son was not with Him in the beginning as a creator or a co-creator. If His son would have been with Him in the beginning (genesis) then somewhere in the so-called “Old Testament” there would have been some mention of him being there with Him in the beginning, but there is absolutely no mention of him being there whatsoever. Scripture (the so-called “Old Testament”) clearly teaches that it was Yahweh “ALONE”, “BY HIMSELF” with “NO ONE BESIDE HIM” Who created the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. This truth as revealed in Scripture is quite clear that there was “NO ONE BESIDE HIM” in His creating the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. It is also quite clear in the so-called “New Testament” that Father Yahweh's son, Yahshua is never recorded there as proclaiming that he had created ANYTHING. In fact, Yahshua makes it quite clear in this section of Scripture that his and our Father Yahweh is Creator of the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM.

    If you can find one occurrence in any translation of the so-called “New Testament” where Yahshua ever proclaimed that he had created ANYTHING, could you please show me where it is that he has ever been recorded as proclaiming this, and from which translation you found him proclaiming this? I already know full well that you will never find such an entry as this in any translation of the so-called “New Testament” where he is ever recorded as proclaiming that he had created ANYTHING.

    As far as my saying “I never admitted that the word was not the Father.”, I have not. FIGURATIVELY though, I do believe that Father Yahweh [“God”] is His word. This is made quite clear in the translation that follows:

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD [or “God was the word” as more accurately translated from the Greek].

    Following is also a link to a number of translations that say “… and the Word was God.” Note that there is not one translation that says '… and the word was Jesus.'

    http://bible.cc/john/1-1.htm

    No, this translation most certainly does not say “… and THE WORD WAS JESUS.” Again, the word translated as “God” is clearly in reference to Father Yahweh and not in reference to His son, Yahshua. In translation it is Father Yahweh that is given reference to as “God”. Father Yahweh's son is never given reference to as “God” in translation. In Scripture translation it is clearly made known that there is only but ONE “God”, not two or three.

    Just as my word is me in this forum, Father Yahweh's word was Him as is made known FIGURATIVELY in Scripture. Following is another translation that makes known that Father Yahweh is in fact His word:

    “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with Yahweh, and Yahweh was the wo
    rd. This was in the beginning with Yahweh. All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being. In it was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light is appearing in the darkness, and the darkness grasped it not. And the word became flesh and tabernacles among us, and we gaze at his esteem, an esteem as of an only-begotten from the Father, full of favor and truth” (Yahchanan [John] 1:1-5,14).
    SOURCE

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    ……

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