John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #292078
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ April 14 2012,05:42)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 14 2012,05:06)

    Quote (Ed J @ April 13 2012,14:05)

    Quote (Ed J @ April 13 2012,14:02)

       Rudimentary logic  vs  Rudimentary logic


    Ding, let the match begin.


    Ed J,

    You have the right idea about this forum! Nothing but short bouts of fighting going on here in foolish words.
    The only difference between an actual boxing match and what goes on here is that here the fight never ends.


    Hi Frank,

    All rudimentary logic needs is a better to understanding of “the big picture”.
    Arguing over segmented understanding is irrelevant .

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Ed J,

    This is why I am growing tired of arguing over the irrelevant segmented understanding and the backbiting that goes on in this forum. I myself would rather present “the big picture” as you have put it all in one post.

    Did Jesus Preexist in Heaven?
    By Servetus the Evangelical

    The institutional church has always proclaimed that Jesus preexisted in heaven. And
    it has concluded that Jesus’ preexistence indicates that he was and is God.
    But in modern times, the idea that Jesus preexisted has been seriously challenged.
    One argument is that if Jesus preexisted as a fully developed personality, that does not
    allow for human development and therefore compromises his being human.
    Luke claims Jesus had a normal human development. He says of Jesus’ childhood,
    “The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of
    God was upon Him” (Luke 2.40). Notice that Luke also distinguishes the Child Jesus
    from God, which always indicates that Jesus was not God. Then Luke adds, “And Jesus
    kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man” (v. 52). How
    could Jesus have increased in favor with God if he was God? William Barclay therefore
    states, “one of the most difficult of all ideas [is] the idea of the preexistence of Jesus.”
    Christians claim that they base their beliefs on the Bible. While the first three gospels
    of the New Testament (NT) contain nothing about Jesus having preexisted, the Gospel of
    John seems to have several important passages that do so. And there are notable texts in
    the Apostle Paul’s letters and the book of Hebrews that do, which we will now consider.
    Paul does not state explicitly anywhere in his NT letters that Jesus preexisted. Thus,
    Karl-Josef Kuschel asserts, “there is no sign of any unambiguous and explicit statement
    about pre-existence in the Christology outlined by Paul.” But most scholars have thought
    that Paul states it implicitly. And Gerhard Kittel observes, “Christological pre-existence
    sayings are a constituent part of the whole of Paulinism.”
    But how did Paul conceive of Jesus having preexisted? Did he think it was a personal
    subsistence or merely a personfication? There is quite a difference.
    James Dunn contends, “There is no good evidence that Jesus thought of himself as a
    pre-existent being” or that Paul thought Jesus either preexisted or possessed deity. Dunn
    claims that much of Paul’s language of preexistence is personified Wisdom language, as
    in “Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God” (1 Corinthians 1.24), and that Paul
    never intended for it to be understood as literal preexistence. Dunn maintains that by the
    time Paul wrote Romans, in the mid-50s, “there is no evidence that Christian thought had
    so far evolved the idea of incarnation, or that the language of preexistence when referred
    to Christ (1 Cor 8:6) would as yet be taken to imply his personal preexistence, or that talk
    of his being ‘sent’ (Rom 8:3) was as yet understood to imply a descent from heaven.”
    Dunn concludes, “Paul was not seeking to win men to belief in a pre-existent being.”
    Regardless of whether or not Jesus preexisted, D.A. Carson logically states, “preexistence
    does not entail deity.” Indeed, Second Temple Judaism regarded certain pious
    men as having preexisted, yet Jews did not think this compromised their monotheism.
    John Knox warns, “the more fully the logic of pre-existence is allowed to work itself
    out in the story [of Jesus], the less important the [his] resurrection is bound to become.”
    Most Christians have thought that Paul implicitly affirms Jesus’ preexistence in 1
    Corinthians 8.9. Therein, he states, “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    that though He was rich, yet for our sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty
    might become rich.” The common view of this passage has been that the word “rich”
    indicates Jesus’ personal preexistence, and the words “poor” and “poverty” signify him
    abandoning this lofty status at his incarnation. Karl-Josef Kuschel observes, “Traditional
    exegesis has always interpreted this passage in terms of pre-existence Christology and
    incarnation, as have present-day exegetes right across all confessional camps.”
    But Dunn says concerning this passage, “Though he could have enjoyed the riches of
    an uninterrupted communion with God, Jesus freely chose to embrace the poverty of
    Adam’s distance from God, in his ministry as a whole, but particularly in his death” for
    our salvation. Dunn adds, “2 Cor 8.9 is as a vivid allusion to the tremendous personal cost
    of Jesus’ ministry … this self-impoverishment … That Paul intended an allusion to the
    preexistent Christ’s self-abasement in incarnation must be judged unlikely.”
    Until Jesus was thirty years old, he probably had an emotionally rich and fulfilling
    life as the eldest of four brothers and several sisters (Mark 6.3). And he must have had a
    good reputation as the carpenter of Nazareth and its vicinity. But in a most profound and
    untold single act of self-denial, he laid aside this comfortable lifestyle, left home, and
    undertook an itinerant, public ministry of financial poverty and even forfeiture of his life.
    He once told his disciples about himself, “The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air
    have nests; but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head” (Matthew 8.20/Luke 9.58).
    Many Christians have thought that the author of the NT letter of Hebrews presents
    Jesus as having preexisted. For example, he says God “through” Jesus “made the world”
    (Hebrews 1.2). And he further explains of Jesus, “He comes into the world” by God
    giving him “a body” (10.5). Yet this author also relates that at Jesus’ heavenly ascension,
    “He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty [God] on high; having become as much
    better than the angels” (1.3-4). But if Jesus preexisted as God, he always was better than
    the angels and therefore could not later have become so. Dunn concludes that “the author
    of Hebrews has no place in hi
    s thinking for pre-existence as an ontological concept.”
    One thing seems to rule out the actual preexistence of Jesus in this letter of Hebrews.
    For him to be Savior and High Priest, he had to be like us in every way except sin. The
    author of Hebrews explains concerning Jesus, “He had to be made like His brethren in all
    things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest” (Hebrews 2.17). Again,
    this requires that Jesus did not literally preexist, since the rest of us humans did not. It
    thus seems that God created the world “through” Jesus simply by having him in mind
    SOURCE

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #292089
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,23:54)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2012,13:02)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,07:20)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2012,12:16)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,06:16)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2012,10:32)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,05:20)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 12 2012,15:07)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 12 2012,05:20)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2012,10:12)
    Hi FRank,
    The Word was of the Spirit and only became flesh in Jesus at the Jordan making him Jesus Christ, the Word.


    Nick,

    Father Yahweh's word was revealed in the flesh long before Yahshua came on the scene. Remember that Yahshua is the prophet like unto Moshe.


    Frank,

    Jesus is greater than Mosses even though he is also a prophet like him.


    kerwin,

    I made no mention that one was greater than the other.


    Frank,

    Jesus is the Way; Abraham is not; who is the greater?


    kerwin,

    I made no mention of Abraham in my post. I did make mention of Moshe though.

    Both Abraham and Moshe were also the way to Yahweh in their time periods just as Yahshua is the way in this last time period.

    You asks who is the greater of the prophets, right? Note what is said in the following:

    Concerning Moshe:

    Now Yahshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moshe had laid his hands on him. So the Ysrylites listened to him and did what Yahweh had commanded Moshe. Since then, no prophet has risen in Ysryl like Moshe, whom Yahweh knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders Yahweh sent him to do in Egypt–to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land (Deuteronomy 34:9-11).

    Concerning Yahchanan the Immerser

    I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than Yahchanan; yet the one who is least in the Kingdom of Yahweh is greater than he (Lukyah 7:28).

    I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than Yahchanan the Immerser; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Yahweh he is greater than he (Mattithyah 11:11).

    Note also that Yahshua said that the apostles, his students [“disciples”], and those who come after them would do greater works than he had done:

    I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father (Yahcahnan 14:12).


    Frank,

    Jesus is the Way they do greater works than he, himself.


    kerwin,

    YOUR “Jesus” is not the way that I will ever go!


    Frank,

    That is sad for all that go through him will be like God in true righteousness and holiness.  That is why those who love sin will not come into the light.

    God promises those that enter the new covenant they will stop sinning if they persevere.


    kerwin,

    I certainly have no desire whatsoever to be like YOUR “God”.

    One stops sinning when they repent and begin to obey Father Yahweh instruction (torah, law, commandment, precept, charge, teaching).

    Father Yahweh's Instruction (Torah, Law, Commandment, Teaching)


    Frank,

    I do not know who your God is but my God is the source of love; the sum of the law; God's Word.  

    I also do not know what method you believe you can use to obey God's command to love.  There is only one way to love and that is to believe God's promise of righteousness; the Spirit of Love, that loves as he does.

    I do know that you either love or you do not love and therefore when you sin you are not living by the Spirit; for the Spirit is in conflict with sinful desires and there is no sin in it.  It is by the Spirit those that believe strive to live through faith and as their faith matures more and more they will do so until God becomes all in them; just as he is in his Son.

    #292094
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    Does the striving of men really assist the work of God?
    Be still and know that I am God

    #292096
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Yes Frank,
    The theologians do not understand the WORD in Christ.

    #292097
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 14 2012,09:16)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,23:54)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2012,13:02)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,07:20)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2012,12:16)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,06:16)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2012,10:32)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 13 2012,05:20)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 12 2012,15:07)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 12 2012,05:20)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2012,10:12)
    Hi FRank,
    The Word was of the Spirit and only became flesh in Jesus at the Jordan making him Jesus Christ, the Word.


    Nick,

    Father Yahweh's word was revealed in the flesh long before Yahshua came on the scene. Remember that Yahshua is the prophet like unto Moshe.


    Frank,

    Jesus is greater than Mosses even though he is also a prophet like him.


    kerwin,

    I made no mention that one was greater than the other.


    Frank,

    Jesus is the Way; Abraham is not; who is the greater?


    kerwin,

    I made no mention of Abraham in my post. I did make mention of Moshe though.

    Both Abraham and Moshe were also the way to Yahweh in their time periods just as Yahshua is the way in this last time period.

    You asks who is the greater of the prophets, right? Note what is said in the following:

    Concerning Moshe:

    Now Yahshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moshe had laid his hands on him. So the Ysrylites listened to him and did what Yahweh had commanded Moshe. Since then, no prophet has risen in Ysryl like Moshe, whom Yahweh knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders Yahweh sent him to do in Egypt–to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land (Deuteronomy 34:9-11).

    Concerning Yahchanan the Immerser

    I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than Yahchanan; yet the one who is least in the Kingdom of Yahweh is greater than he (Lukyah 7:28).

    I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than Yahchanan the Immerser; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Yahweh he is greater than he (Mattithyah 11:11).

    Note also that Yahshua said that the apostles, his students [“disciples”], and those who come after them would do greater works than he had done:

    I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father (Yahcahnan 14:12).


    Frank,

    Jesus is the Way they do greater works than he, himself.


    kerwin,

    YOUR “Jesus” is not the way that I will ever go!


    Frank,

    That is sad for all that go through him will be like God in true righteousness and holiness.  That is why those who love sin will not come into the light.

    God promises those that enter the new covenant they will stop sinning if they persevere.


    kerwin,

    I certainly have no desire whatsoever to be like YOUR “God”.

    One stops sinning when they repent and begin to obey Father Yahweh instruction (torah, law, commandment, precept, charge, teaching).

    Father Yahweh's Instruction (Torah, Law, Commandment, Teaching)


    Frank,

    I do not know who your God is but my God is the source of love; the sum of the law; God's Word.  

    I also do not know what method you believe you can use to obey God's command to love.  There is only one way to love and that is to believe God's promise of righteousness; the Spirit of Love, that loves as he does.

    I do know that you either love or you do not love and therefore when you sin you are not living by the Spirit; for the Spirit is in conflict with sinful desires and there is no sin in it.  It is by the Spirit those that believe strive to live through faith and as their faith matures more and more they will do so until God becomes all in them; just as he is in his Son.


    kerwin,

    I am no mere “God” worshiper. Father Yahweh is Love and the source of it:

    #292099
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2012,09:59)
    Yes Frank,
    The theologians do not understand the WORD in Christ.


    Nick,

    I made no mention of any theologians! ???

    #292103
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Frank,
    Your articles do quote their opinions.
    But theologians are straightened by their carnal minds as it does not require rebirth from above to join their ranks.

    #292122
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2012,10:22)
    Hi Frank,
    Your articles do quote their opinions.
    But theologians are straightened by their carnal minds as it does not require rebirth from above to join their ranks.


    Bye Nick,

    This is not MY article. I was simply posting this article in hope that someone might come to understand from a Christian perspective that Yahshua did not pre-exist his birth as an actual being and was not LITERALLY his and our Father Yahweh's word and is not Yahweh [“God”] or “a god”.

    FYI, a theologian is simply by definition in our English language one who studies religion and this can refer to any particular or specific religion or the study of all religious views.

    I have never appreciated anything that you have ever said in opposition to my posts and I certainly believe that I ever will. As I have told you a number of times before, if you do not approve of what it is that I post, I would ask that you simply do not read (ignore) my post or respond to them. How hard is it for you to simply ignore what it is that I post and not respond to them if you do not approve of what it is that I post? ???  

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #292127
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 14 2012,10:08)
    kerwin,

    I am no mere “God” worshiper. Father Yahweh is Love and the source of it:


    Shalom Frank,

    It would sure be nice if you knew how to spell their names correctly (GOD and God's only begotten son)!   (Link)

    B'shem, YHVH (YÄ-hä-vā)
    עד (Ed) (Joshua 22:34)

    #292128
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 14 2012,11:17)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2012,10:22)
    Hi Frank,
    Your articles do quote their opinions.
    But theologians are straightened by their carnal minds as it does not require rebirth from above to join their ranks.


    Bye Nick,

    This is not MY article.


    Hi Frank,

    That's the reason why nobody reads them.  :D

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #292136
    jammin
    Participant

    sorry frank but you are confused LOL
    take your vitamins

    #292137
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ April 14 2012,11:33)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 14 2012,11:17)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2012,10:22)
    Hi Frank,
    Your articles do quote their opinions.
    But theologians are straightened by their carnal minds as it does not require rebirth from above to join their ranks.


    Bye Nick,

    This is not MY article.


    Hi Frank,

    That's the reason why nobody reads them.  

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Ed J,

    How is it that you think you know if anyone reads my posts or not? Do you fancy yourself as a clairvoyant or what? ???

    FYI, I know for a fact that some do actually read my posts and the articles that I have presented here, since I have been told by some here in this thread that they have read them and also in private messages. In fact, a few people that have yet not posted in any of the threads that I have posted in here even mentioned and said things concerning you to me in private messages here. :D

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #292139
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 14 2012,12:07)
    sorry frank but you are confused LOL
    take your vitamins


    jammin,

    It is quite obvious to me and all here that you are! :D

    #292141
    jammin
    Participant

    you said:I am never proclaimed that Scripture says that the word in Yahchanan [John] 1:1 is the Father

    now you said:I never admitted that the word was not the Father.
    ——-
    you should take some vitamins LOL
    you are confused

    the bible says that the father and the son have the same nature, GOD.that is what the bible says.
    the father is GOD by nature.
    the son is also GOD by nature.

    phil 2.5-6 Let Christ himself be your example as to what your attitude should be. For he, who had always been God by nature,

    sorry boy but you need to study hard LOL

    #292143
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ April 14 2012,11:29)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 14 2012,10:08)
    kerwin,

    I am no mere “God” worshiper. Father Yahweh is Love and the source of it:


    Shalom Frank,

    It would sure be nice if you knew how to spell their names correctly (GOD and God's only begotten son)!   (Link)

    B'shem, YHVH (YÄ-hä-vā)
    עד (Ed) (Joshua 22:34)


    Ed J,

    I do spell their names correctly in accordance with the English language that I speak and according to how their names are transliterated/transcribed into our English language. BTW, I did not ever bother to click on you foolish link!  :D

    The Name Yahweh

    Yahweh Is Our Heavenly Father And Creator's Name

    Baal Gad
    The LORD God

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #292144
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 14 2012,12:31)
    you said:I am never proclaimed that Scripture says that the word in Yahchanan [John] 1:1 is the Father

    now you said:I never admitted that the word was not the Father.
    ——-
    you should take some vitamins LOL
    you are confused

    the bible says that the father and the son have the same nature, GOD.that is what the bible says.
    the father is GOD by nature.
    the son is also GOD by nature.

    phil 2.5-6 Let Christ himself be your example as to what your attitude should be. For he, who had always been God by nature,

    sorry boy but you need to study hard LOL


    jammin,

    Is that the best that you can do is to repeat a post that I have already responded to as follows:

    https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….st=1770

    :D

    #292149
    kerwin
    Participant

    Frank

    You wrote

    Quote
    kerwin,

    I am no mere “God” worshiper. Father Yahweh is Love and the source of it:

    Then you know there is but one command that in obeying you obey the whole law and prophets of God; and that command is love.  It is obeyed by living by the Spirit of God; which is both received and lived according to; by faith.  In this way one worships God by the Spirit of love.
    God personalizes his Word; which is love; as does Jesus; though God is the Source.

    #292152
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2012,04:54)
    Hi KW,
    Does the striving of men really assist the work of God?
    Be still and know that I am God


    Nick,

    1 Corinthians 9:25
    King James Version (KJV)

    25And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

    You are correct that the striving is not through human effort but by faith; which bears the fruit of love.

    #292153
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2012,04:59)
    Yes Frank,
    The theologians do not understand the WORD in Christ.


    Nick;

    Some are as you say; but a remnant speak as they are carried along by the Spirit.

    #292164
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    Which are they?

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