John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 3,781 through 3,800 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #199768
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    ONLY BEGOTTEN is one word, not two, in greek.
    It means something different to what you imagine

    #199769
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Jesus is to be the FIRST of many brothers.
    You can follow him into his anointing as a son.

    #199937
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2010,15:48)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2010,13:39)
    Hi MB,
    Are you not yet a son begotten of God?


    No Nick, for Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God.

    mike


    Jesus is the only begotten of the Father, but we who have received Christ have been grafted into the vine so that we may be joint heirs with the Son, also sons of God, born of the Spirit.

    #199987
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    Please directly answer this logic.  If God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Jesus, then Jesus simply wasn't God, or that fullness would have already been dwelling in him.  Would it make sense if I said I was pleased to have all the fullness of Mike dwell in Mike?  


    The Logic doesnt matter, if we are going to stick to bible, the bible doesnt state its the fullness of GOD, that its ALL FULLNESS (IN GERNERAL) dwells in him.
    if we are going to take any steps further, what is the fullness?

    Quote
    I resent that implication.  You said God HAD to redeem us through Jesus.  I said you were limiting a limitless God and He could have just wiped us all out.  You again limited God by saying He couldn't have done that because He is love.  So I showed you many instances when humans were either wiped out or were about to be wiped out to show you God could still be love whether sinful humans existed or not.  I simply do NOT like that you limit the ways God HAD to do things.  That is all.    


    Im not limiting God.  Mike its so  simple, i am take an observation that is very clear.  God chose to redeem us thruogh christ period.  He doesnt want to do it any other way, that he has presented to us.  So if we are going to stick to bible, than anything else is speculation and irrevalent.
    God CHOSE to do it that ways, and he doestn want to do it any other way!

    Quote
    f course it's man and God we're discussing.  Remember?  You said Jesus was FULLY man and FULLY God?  And why would Christ existing as the Word have anything to do with FULLY man and FULLY God?      Haven't you noticed that most of Jesus' titles contain OF God?  Word OF God, Son OF God, Anointed one OF God, the outstretched Arm OF God.  And he was the Savior OF God's people.  He is (or will be) King OF God's Kingdom.  Think it out, he is OF God and calls God “my God”.  Isn't that a strange way for “God” to talk?  Does God have a God?  

    peace and love,
    mike


    Its irrevelant.  Jesus wasnt man before flesh.  I know what i said.  but than again, when he became flesh, which is a limitation to his previous state, then man part would represent the limitation.  btu what is the orginal glory, or state.  Jesus showed his “True” revelation/state/form, on the mount of transfigeration, changing from man to whatever he his. thats my point. What is that. and before flesh what is that? Jsut a God begoting God, or something else, or God.

    Much love mike,

    sorry if my responses have been really off,

    lets just say i been out of it lately

    Personal reasons.

    God bless.

    #200010
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Hi Dennison,

    You said:

    Quote
    The Logic doesnt matter, if we are going to stick to bible, the bible doesnt state its the fullness of GOD, that its ALL FULLNESS (IN GERNERAL) dwells in him.

    Unless there is another scripture you are talking about, it most definitely says “God” in one form or another.

    Colossians 2:9
    King James Version
    For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    New Living Translation
    For in Christ the fullness of God lives in a human body,

    Complete Jewish Bible
    For in him, bodily, lives the fullness of all that God is.

    English Standard Version
    For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

    New American Standard
    For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

    New International Version About NIV
    For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

    So again, please answer the logic.  Why would it need to be said that all the fullness of God dwells in God?  Wouldn't that be like a “DUH” moment?

    What about Col 1:19?

    19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

    Why would it please GOD to have all of GOD'S fullness dwell inside of Himself?  Another “DUH” moment?

    You said:

    Quote
    Im not limiting God.  Mike its so  simple, i am take an observation that is very clear.  God chose to redeem us thruogh christ period.

    Thank you.  God CHOSE to do it this way, He didn't HAVE TO.

    You said:

    Quote
    btw what is the orginal glory, or state?

    Another good point.  Jesus was returned to (at least) his previous glory and position.  That position is now at the right hand of the One he calls “my God”.  That is NOT a position of equality, but of honor from the One who placed him in this most esteemed position.  So if he is not God now, but at his God's right hand, and this is the former position he was returned to, then he must not have been God before, either.

    peace and love,
    mike

    #200072
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2010,09:52)
    Hi Dennison,

    You said:

    Quote
    The Logic doesnt matter, if we are going to stick to bible, the bible doesnt state its the fullness of GOD, that its ALL FULLNESS (IN GERNERAL) dwells in him.

    Unless there is another scripture you are talking about, it most definitely says “God” in one form or another.

    Colossians 2:9
    King James Version
    For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    New Living Translation
    For in Christ the fullness of God lives in a human body,

    Complete Jewish Bible
    For in him, bodily, lives the fullness of all that God is.

    English Standard Version
    For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

    New American Standard
    For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

    New International Version About NIV
    For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

    So again, please answer the logic.  Why would it need to be said that all the fullness of God dwells in God?  Wouldn't that be like a “DUH” moment?

    What about Col 1:19?

    19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

    Why would it please GOD to have all of GOD'S fullness dwell inside of Himself?  Another “DUH” moment?

    You said:

    Quote
    Im not limiting God.  Mike its so  simple, i am take an observation that is very clear.  God chose to redeem us thruogh christ period.

    Thank you.  God CHOSE to do it this way, He didn't HAVE TO.

    You said:

    Quote
    btw what is the orginal glory, or state?

    Another good point.  Jesus was returned to (at least) his previous glory and position.  That position is now at the right hand of the One he calls “my God”.  That is NOT a position of equality, but of honor from the One who placed him in this most esteemed position.  So if he is not God now, but at his God's right hand, and this is the former position he was returned to, then he must not have been God before, either.

    peace and love,
    mike


    Mike,

    Quote
    Unless there is another scripture you are talking about, it most definitely says “God” in one form or another.
    Colossians 2:9
    King James Version
    For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    So again, please answer the logic.  Why would it need to be said that all the fullness of God dwells in God?  Wouldn't that be like a “DUH” moment?
    What about Col 1:19?
    19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
    Why would it please GOD to have all of GOD'S fullness dwell inside of Himself?  Another “DUH” moment?

    Mike i think we have a misunderstading here. this is what i read.  I didnt see where it says possively that the fullness being refered to here belongs to the father directly for say.
    Col 1:19-For it pleased the Father that in him(Jesus) should all fulness dwell;

    I didnt see that it says the fullness of the father.
    Even though i understand what you now mean about the Godhead fullness point you made.  but im refferring to this one.
    This one mentions the ALL and FULLNESS but doesnt refer to what fullness it speaks of.  The context applys

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    17And he is before all things, and by him allthings consist.
    18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Referring to the context, i think the fullness refers to the general fullness of life and everything created.
    what do you think?
    Your logic:
    Well if time wasnt  an issue.  and I at this very moment is eternal and not limited in any way, yet at some point i was a child, who was limited, since time isnt an issue anymore, could i say that this child is not me.
    Christ as we know is the IMAGE of the invisible God. a limited entity that CREATED and had potential to even become FLESH from before assuming that he was SPIRIT.   Christ somehow had the power to be from spirit to flesh, than enough to answer for Sin and ressurect, and return in victory.

    God participating in this world is a limitation because he is eternal.  and what becomes limited, needs the eternal still.  
    what becomes mortal still needs the immortal.

    My direct answer.  Jesus representing the limited particaption as the word and as the creator and as the IMAGE of the invisible God, we can reword this by saying he is the known manifestation of the unknowable God, the image of the unseen God.  Jesus is the limited entity that needs the eternal no matter in what situation.  Yet the limitation is filled with the full power of etenity in him.  which bridges the gap between eternity and time.

    I know that you wont agree with this, but lets continue,

    Do you believe that God who is eternal can particpate within Time, Space, and Matter is a limitation.  

    He is eternal, which is above time.
    he is omni present who doestn fit in the pocket of the universe or in the earth.
    and not limited in life, and created things.
    not limited in energy nor in matter.
    he cannot be limited to a occupied space.

    Quote
    Thank you.  God CHOSE to do it this way, He didn't HAVE TO.


    Cool. great finally we have an understanding. but for real though i dont like playing the could have, or what if game.

    Quote
    Another good point.  Jesus was returned to (at least) his previous glory and position.  That position is now at the right hand of the One he calls “my God”.  That is NOT a position of equality, but of honor from the One who placed him in this most esteemed position.  So if he is not God now, but at his God's right hand, and this is the former position he was returned to, then he must not have been God before, either.

    God wants to be everything to us.  God is not only great in the best of things, not only in spirit, but also in the smallest most meaning less things, even the physical.  God is spirit that is Clear.  but even the limited since has all fullness in him.  that God maybe all in all.
    Is God only the Father?  I mean it seems to me we compare Christ as the Father who is the creator.  wait Christ created.

    Yet Father also holds all the previous names of th
    e old testament.  but those were all roles of God.  
    El- Elohim, Jehovah

    My middle name Joel- means Jehovah is God. or God is the Lord.
    Yet Father is not a name? we have the right to present ourselves to our father as Abba but is father the name of God?
    Jehovah-Rafa
    God our healer, IS God only our healer when pain is present.
    God is only Father when children are born.
    There is a purpose of the Son of God.  

    God is the title of a supreme being.  Jesus meets those requierements.  he is not a demi God, he has a compelete fullness about him.

    Much love,

    #200076
    JustAskin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Look forward to more revelation.

    I only wish the Holy Spirit would come on more, but I understand that there has to be opposition in order to progress in truth (This is no paradox…kerwin…One cannot build muscle mass unless you exercise againsta resistent force…build Scriptural muscle mass in truth ysing the resistence of untruth)

    #200078
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (JustAskin @ June 26 2010,14:52)
    Mike,

    Look forward to more revelation.

    I only wish the Holy Spirit would come on more, but I understand that there has to be opposition in order to progress in truth (This is no paradox…kerwin…One cannot build muscle mass unless you exercise againsta resistent force…build Scriptural muscle mass in truth ysing the resistence of untruth)


    I never though there was since the proverb that states “As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another” is true, Proverbs 27:17.

    Your fellow student,

    Kerwin

    #200079
    JustAskin
    Participant

    Aggh….. Kerwin…sorry ol' boy!

    I Meant Rokkaman…

    My mistake….

    #200081
    Tim Kraft
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 26 2010,20:11)

    Quote (JustAskin @ June 26 2010,14:52)
    Mike,

    Look forward to more revelation.

    I only wish the Holy Spirit would come on more, but I understand that there has to be opposition in order to progress in truth (This is no paradox…kerwin…One cannot build muscle mass unless you exercise againsta resistent force…build Scriptural muscle mass in truth ysing the resistence of untruth)


    I never though there was since the proverb that states “As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another” is true, Proverbs 27:17.

    Your fellow student,

    Kerwin


    This creates an interesting thought. I agree that opposing forces creates experience. One cannot know hot without its relation to cold, up to down, high as to low, etc.! This is the way of relativity.
    So untruth/demons/lies/devils would be necessary to know and experience the truth. We can't know the feeling of life seeming to be apart from God without experiencing/feeling as though we are separated from God. That is sin/error/wrong thinking! In reality we cannot be apart from God who is everywhere.

    Man accepted an illusion in his mind of evil or an opposing force to God, by believing that he could be separated from God through something he had done or not done. That is man created religion. It is error. Not truth.

    God never leaves us, yet we can choose to believe we are separated from him. We leave God!

    Belief connects us, unbelief is an illusion of separation which is sin/error! Jesus shows us the way back to God. BY FAITH THAT HE IS WITHIN. Not by good works or bad works, God is within his temple made without hands, you, who believe.IMO, God bless, TK

    #200083
    JustAskin
    Participant

    Tim,

    You were doing well until you stumbled at the last hurdle.

    Untruth is not 'illusion'. It is Real.

    But yet I understand what you were trying to say.

    Untruth cuts us off from God because God hates to look upon evil. It doesn't mean God can't see evil. God desires those of untruth to become truthful, but He Himself will not 'Touch' that which is sinful.

    This is also another 'proof' that God did not 'personally' come to earth but sent His representative, His perfect Servant, His most Glorious Spirit Son, Jesus (as he would be named). This Servant Son, perfectly showed the 'spirit of the Father' so much so that it could be virtually said that it was 'God Himself' and there in lies the lie…that the trinitarians exploit.
    But Jesus was in the flesh. “God is Spirit” Therefore, and, “God is not Man”, therefore Jesus cannot be God. The King's embassador is not 'the King' himself. Only 'Desperarians' try to say so.

    #200084
    Tim Kraft
    Participant

    JA: Thank you for the response. If in the beginning was God/good and God/good was everywhere and everything, then all that existed with God and Adam in the garden was good! God is good and God is all and in all. Has Adam chosen the tree of life/good there would have been no evil. Yet of all the avenues of wisdom in the garden, Adam chose to split God (in his mind, he didn't really split God) by accepting both good and evil. Adam had the power to make his own choice of what he would believe. As a man believeth so he is. That doesn't mean that it was true, he didn't really split God but in his mind he made the choice and began to immediately feel fear that he had done wrong and God was angry. It was his right to choose. God was not angry. God just pronounced the consequences of his choice. Adam wanted to hide from God. Adam never ask God for forgiveness because it wasn't a sin/error. It was a free will choice!
    From that point Adam continued to try to appease God through offerings and other works. God was not mad or angry. Adam believed incorrectly. In Adams mind he felt separated from God. He wasn't separated in truth. It was a mental illusion. He believed incorrectly.
    This is the origin of sin. Man incorrectly believing he was in sin/error and separated from God. Now only faith could make a reconnection of mans mind to God. Sin was wrong beliefs. Sin has always been wrong thinking. Jesus came with the truth that the Kingdom of God or the ruling power of God is within. It always has been God never left. Man left God through illusion of sin/error. Any man who believed like Abraham on down the line was counted righteous unto God. Just by believing! IMO, God bless, TK

    #200085
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (JustAskin @ June 26 2010,15:33)
    Aggh….. Kerwin…sorry ol' boy!

    I Meant Rokkaman…

    My mistake….


    Appology accepted! :cool:

    Your fellow student

    Kerwin

    #200087
    JustAskin
    Participant

    Tim,

    You still not getting it.

    Adam WAS cut off.

    God dismissed him from His presence. It was not illision. It was REAlity.

    God cursed the earth for their sake. He made the man 'work for his living among the dust of the earth'. This means that God withdrew the Holy Spirit from Adam…this is cutting off… But He put in place a process of recovery. The woman, he cursed in childbirth AND by making her a 'maid' to the man.
    Men and Women are not 'equal' in status by God's decree. But, yes, flesh is flesh…not the point, though…the Man is the head of the woman because….'it was she who first sinned but sin does not come from the woman but from the man' because Adam was the one that God gave the senior role to but Adam 'gave himself up to the lust of the woman'

    Tim,
    Perhaps you just not explaining yourself properly.

    #200101
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 23 2010,14:35)
    [
    I forget things very easily.

    And Gene was referrring to another thread where he posed this same question and we already butted our heads till a bloody mess and got no where.

    but again, him like others, post things that dont make sense.
    at times.

    and he knows that im not a brute, because i have agreed with him in other things. like the seven spirits of God thread.

    so KJ accused me of cheating, Numbers accused me of speculating and adding to the word of God, and now Gene is stating that I DENNISON avoid posts.

    Wow… is there another person named simplyforgiven here? because these accusations dont represent my character nor personality within this thread.


    SF……..Sorry if i offended you > I can get frustrated at times, when someone doesn't get my points, but perhaps it's because i am not explaining them right.

    However , back to the original issue, my point is that Jesus is (NOT) GOD, When i quoted that scripture, you replied i was taking it out of context, i disagree with you there, I still am not sure what you meant by that. Are you saying Jesus is the word of GOD and is the exact same as GOD Himself. Are you saying that Jesus himself is the life himself to us, or is it that God the Father is Life to both Jesus and us alike which is the way i see it. I full well know Jesus showed us that life of GOD the Father it was (IN) him, but i don't believe it was (from) him.

    peace and love to you and yours………………..gene

    #200102
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Hi Dennison,

    You said:

    Quote
    Referring to the context, i think the fullness refers to the general fullness of life and everything created.
    what do you think?

    Okay.  The NIV, which I quoted has “His fullness”.  I see from the Greek that you are right – it just says “fullness”.  But, by comparing 1:19 with 2:9, it is clear to me that it  means God's fullness.  But if it doesn't, so what?  This “all fullness” dwells in Jesus for one reason only – because it pleased Jesus' Father and God for it to be this way.

    You said:

    Quote
    Well if time wasnt  an issue.  and I at this very moment is eternal and not limited in any way, yet at some point i was a child, who was limited, since time isnt an issue anymore, could i say that this child is not me.
    Christ as we know is the IMAGE of the invisible God. a limited entity that CREATED and had potential to even become FLESH from before assuming that he was SPIRIT.   Christ somehow had the power to be from spirit to flesh, than enough to answer for Sin and ressurect, and return in victory.

    What?  To borrow a line from Stu….. it's English I'll grant you, but that doesn't seem to be much help.   :D

    You said:

    Quote
    God is the title of a supreme being.

    Okay.  But who is the most supreme of all? I don't understand how so many people want to go all weird and add totally crazy ideas to what the Bible teaches. It is really quite simple. God was alone. He begat a Son. He and His Son created everything else. If you begat a son it would simply mean that you are now the father to your son. Why should it be any different with God? Isn't He the one who set up our languages and understandings? Why would His Son also be Him when none of our sons are us? It's just silly to me.

    peace and love,
    mike

    #200104
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all………..Lets stay on subject here, Is Jesus (the) Word spoken of in John1:1 or is the Word Spoken of there God himself. Remember Jesus plainly said the words he spoke were (not) his words, so who can we reconcile this difference. I believe Jesus did speak GOD the Fathers Word to us , but I believe also those word did not come from himself as many do believe here. Where it say that they may Know you “the only true God , and Jesus Christ whom you have sent”. some believe that some how puts Jesus on par with GOD as an equal, i disagree with that idea, We know GOD the FATHER as A GOD, we know Jesus as a Son of Man, by knowing both GOD and Jesus the man we can understand much about the salvation process is it is good that we understand Jesus and The only true God the Father , both of them. IMO

    peace and love to you all…………………gene

    #200106
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 26 2010,21:36)
    JA: Thank you for the response. If in the beginning was God/good and God/good was everywhere and everything, then all that existed with God and Adam in the garden was good! God is good and God is all and in all. Has Adam chosen the tree of life/good there would have been no evil. Yet of all the avenues of wisdom in the garden, Adam chose to split God (in his mind, he didn't really split God) by accepting both good and evil. Adam had the power to make his own choice of what he would believe. As a man believeth so he is. That doesn't mean that it was true, he didn't really split God but in his mind he made the choice and began to immediately feel fear that he had done wrong and God was angry. It was his right to choose. God was not angry. God just pronounced the consequences of his choice. Adam wanted to hide from God. Adam never ask God for forgiveness because it wasn't a sin/error. It was a free will choice!
    From that point Adam continued to try to appease God through offerings and other works. God was not mad or angry. Adam believed incorrectly. In Adams mind he felt separated from God. He wasn't separated in truth. It was a mental illusion. He believed incorrectly.
    This is the origin of sin. Man incorrectly believing he was in sin/error and separated from God. Now only faith could make a reconnection of mans mind to God. Sin was wrong beliefs. Sin has always been wrong thinking. Jesus came with the truth that the Kingdom of God or the ruling power of God is within. It always has been God never left. Man left God through illusion of sin/error. Any man who believed  like Abraham on down the line was counted righteous unto God. Just by believing! IMO, God bless, TK


    Hi Tim

    I don't even know what to say. You sure have some unscriptual views of God and life. You seem to think that you can just close your eyes and think “happy thoughts” and then there is no evil in the world. You think the OT's God is too mean and therefore people don't really need to read the OT. You think God wasn't angry at Adam and Eve, but it was all in their heads.

    Wow, maybe it's time for you to actually re-read the OT, Tim. You have your facts messed up.

    peace and love,
    mike

    #200107
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 27 2010,01:44)
    To all………..Lets stay on subject here, Is Jesus (the) Word spoken of in John1:1 or is the Word Spoken of there God himself.  Remember Jesus plainly said the words he spoke were (not) his words, so who can we reconcile this difference. I believe Jesus did speak GOD the Fathers Word to us , but I believe also those word did not come from himself as many do believe here. Where it say that they may Know you “the only true God , and Jesus Christ whom you have sent”. some believe that some how puts Jesus on par with GOD as an equal, i disagree with that idea,  We know GOD the FATHER as A GOD, we know Jesus as a Son of Man, by knowing both GOD and Jesus the man we can understand much about the salvation process is it is good that we understand Jesus and The only true God the Father , both of them. IMO

    peace and love to you all…………………gene


    Hi Gene,

    And let's add John 1:18.

    18No one has ever seen God, but the only begotten god,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

    No one has ever seen God. But someone OTHER THAN GOD, who is at God's side, has explained God.

    peace and love,
    mike

    #200122
    JustAskin
    Participant

    S'truth Gene,

    Are you still pushing ''whatever''?

    Did you ever respond to … And whatn about Jesus saying he was going back to where he came from. John 16 and 17.

    If you have then please show me where or indulge me and write it again here.

    I'm fascinated by your'potential' response.

    Thank you.

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