John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 3,801 through 3,820 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #200131
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 27 2010,01:56)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 27 2010,01:44)
    To all………..Lets stay on subject here, Is Jesus (the) Word spoken of in John1:1 or is the Word Spoken of there God himself.  Remember Jesus plainly said the words he spoke were (not) his words, so who can we reconcile this difference. I believe Jesus did speak GOD the Fathers Word to us , but I believe also those word did not come from himself as many do believe here. Where it say that they may Know you “the only true God , and Jesus Christ whom you have sent”. some believe that some how puts Jesus on par with GOD as an equal, i disagree with that idea,  We know GOD the FATHER as A GOD, we know Jesus as a Son of Man, by knowing both GOD and Jesus the man we can understand much about the salvation process is it is good that we understand Jesus and The only true God the Father , both of them. IMO

    peace and love to you all…………………gene


    Hi Gene,

    And let's add John 1:18.

    18No one has ever seen God, but the only begotten god,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

    No one has ever seen God.  But someone OTHER THAN GOD, who is at God's side, has explained God.

    peace and love,
    mike


    Mike……..So Jesus Explained Him, and is (NOW) at his side , so whats your point, what makes you believe He preexisted his berth because He disclosed (explained) the Father to us. Who disclosed who Jesus was to Peter? was it not the same GOD that was disclosing who he was to Jesus and Jesus was relaying that to us.

    Here is even something even more interesting , Jesus said He has told us about the Father in Proverbs (fictitious illustrations) , but a time will come when he will show us plainly about the Father.

    Don't you believe God was revealing to Jesus thing while he was on this earth and telling Him what to say and How to say it? Jesus said he was, so we can't use that as some kind of Proof of His preexistence, now can we brother. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………….gene

    #200132
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (JustAskin @ June 27 2010,03:10)
    S'truth Gene,

    Are you still pushing ''whatever''?

    Did you ever respond to … And whatn about Jesus saying he was going back to where he came from. John 16 and 17.

    If you have then please show me where or indulge me and write it again here.

    I'm fascinated by your'potential' response.

    Thank you.


    JA……..Don't think i Have , but i will now, Jesus was indeed a preconceived purpose of GOD and as a result he was from Heaven and he returned to where he was preconceived in the first place. But we can say that about all of us were we not also Preconceived by God>

    Rom 8:29…> For whom he did (foreknow), he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, the He (Jesus) might be the firstborn among many brethren .

    So were we also in heave before we were born seeing GOD foreknew us?

    JA do you see my point Scripture does not specifically say Jesus existed as a Person before his berth Brother. The have to force the text somewhat to make it say that. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………gene

    #200189
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 27 2010,03:46)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 27 2010,01:56)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 27 2010,01:44)
    To all………..Lets stay on subject here, Is Jesus (the) Word spoken of in John1:1 or is the Word Spoken of there God himself.  Remember Jesus plainly said the words he spoke were (not) his words, so who can we reconcile this difference. I believe Jesus did speak GOD the Fathers Word to us , but I believe also those word did not come from himself as many do believe here. Where it say that they may Know you “the only true God , and Jesus Christ whom you have sent”. some believe that some how puts Jesus on par with GOD as an equal, i disagree with that idea,  We know GOD the FATHER as A GOD, we know Jesus as a Son of Man, by knowing both GOD and Jesus the man we can understand much about the salvation process is it is good that we understand Jesus and The only true God the Father , both of them. IMO

    peace and love to you all…………………gene


    Hi Gene,

    And let's add John 1:18.

    18No one has ever seen God, but the only begotten god,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

    No one has ever seen God.  But someone OTHER THAN GOD, who is at God's side, has explained God.

    peace and love,
    mike


    Mike……..So Jesus Explained Him, and is (NOW) at his side , so whats your point, what makes you believe He preexisted his berth because He disclosed (explained) the Father to us.  Who disclosed who Jesus was to Peter? was it not the same GOD that was disclosing who he was to Jesus and Jesus was relaying that to us.

    Here is even something even more interesting , Jesus said He has told us about the Father in Proverbs (fictitious illustrations) , but a time will come  when he will show us plainly about the Father.  

    Don't you believe God was revealing to Jesus thing while he was on this earth and telling Him what to say and How to say it? Jesus said he was, so we can't use that as some kind of Proof of His preexistence, now can we brother. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………….gene


    See how you are, Gene?   :)

    I post a scripture to back you up that the Word couldn't have actually been God Himself, and you jump down my throat for the effort.   :D

    You said:

    Quote
    So Jesus Explained Him, and is (NOW) at his side , so whats your point,

    Yes, Gene.  Jesus is now at his God's side – why?  Because he was raised to his previous glory and postion.  Doesn't that imply he was already God's only begotten Son at His side before he came in the flesh?  How do you answer this scripture?

    What, therefore, if YOU should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?

    You said:

    Quote
    Don't you believe God was revealing to Jesus thing while he was on this earth and telling Him what to say and How to say it? Jesus said he was, so we can't use that as some kind of Proof of His preexistence, now can we brother. IMO

    Yes, God revealed much to Jesus while he was on earth.  But Jesus had also already seen with his own eyes the things of God and of heaven.

    John 3:31-32
    He that comes from heaven is over all others. 32 What he has seen and heard, of this he bears witness, but no man is accepting his witness.

    peace and love,
    mike

    #200195
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2010,13:56)
    Hi MB,
    ONLY BEGOTTEN is one word, not two, in greek.
    It means something different to what you imagine


    Hi Nick,

    Yes, monogenes comes from two Greek words. Mono, meaning “only” and “ginomai” meaning “to generate” or “to become”. Together, they have the meaning of “only generated”. It is not me, but you and seemingly everyone else on HN who try to imagine new definitions for monogenes. I just take the words as they are written. And apparently, Greek Bible scholars from the 1st and 4th century agree with me, not you all. :)

    peace and love,
    mike

    #200196
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2010,13:57)
    Hi MB,
    Jesus is to be the FIRST of many brothers.
    You can follow him into his anointing as a son.


    Yes Nick,

    And even as I follow him, I do so with the knowledge that I will NEVER be the monogenes son of God through whom all things were created. The one who left his position of monogenes Son of God to accomplish God's will on earth, and then was given that postion back.

    peace and love,
    mike

    #200198
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Oxy @ June 26 2010,10:22)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2010,15:48)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2010,13:39)
    Hi MB,
    Are you not yet a son begotten of God?


    No Nick, for Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God.

    mike


    Jesus is the only begotten of the Father, but we who have received Christ have been grafted into the vine so that we may be joint heirs with the Son, also sons of God, born of the Spirit.


    Hi Oxy,

    Haven't you heard? Monogenes doesn't mean “only begotten” anymore – it means “unique”. And we are to be joint heirs “of” Christ, not “with” him. :) Such are the adjustments of men who will do anything to prove that Jesus is God Almighty, equal to the Father.

    peace and love,
    mike

    #200201
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 26 2010,19:32)

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 23 2010,14:35)
    [
    I forget things very easily.

    And Gene was referrring to another thread where he posed this same question and we already butted our heads till a bloody mess and got no where.

    but again, him like others, post things that dont make sense.
    at times.

    and he knows that im not a brute, because i have agreed with him in other things. like the seven spirits of God thread.

    so KJ accused me of cheating, Numbers accused me of speculating and adding to the word of God, and now Gene is stating that I DENNISON avoid posts.

    Wow… is there another person named simplyforgiven here? because these accusations dont represent my character nor personality within this thread.


    SF……..Sorry if i offended you > I can get frustrated at times, when someone doesn't get my points, but perhaps it's because i am not explaining them right.

    However , back to the original issue, my point is that Jesus is (NOT) GOD, When i quoted that scripture, you replied i was taking it out of context, i disagree with you there, I still am not sure what you meant by that. Are you saying Jesus is the word of GOD and is the exact same as GOD Himself. Are you saying that Jesus himself is the life himself to us, or is it that God the Father is Life to both Jesus and us alike which is the way i see it. I full well know Jesus showed us that life of GOD the Father it was (IN) him, but i don't believe it was (from) him.

    peace and love to you and yours………………..gene


    Gene,

    Its all Good
    Dont forget im human.
    We have to define things in order to understand eachother fully.

    Scripture states that Jesus is Life, and is the WAY and the TRUTH.
    yet like i stated with Mike scripture speaks of ALL fullnes not Gods fullness.
    He is the Word.
    He is literally those things.
    Where does it say that God is life to Jesus?
    Doesnt it not say that Jesus is the bread of life,
    the one who will never let you thirst again?

    Lets say God wanted to be the perfect rolemodel in our same situation. like Mike said that GOD can do ANYTHING he wants to.
    Lets say that God wanted to be a perfect human rolemodel.
    and subjected himself to human flesh.
    Imagine for a moment, to be a perfect example he would still need to subject himself to depend on eternity, to unlimited power. Yet Jesus has access to that full eternity, to the full power of God without limits.
    For God to show us any better, he would have to lead by example. meaning he would need to show us how.

    #200202
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    *Mike,

    Quote
    Okay.  The NIV, which I quoted has “His fullness”.  I see from the Greek that you are right – it just says “fullness”.  But, by comparing 1:19 with 2:9, it is clear to me that it  means God's fullness.  But if it doesn't, so what?  This “all fullness” dwells in Jesus for one reason only – because it pleased Jesus' Father and God for it to be this way.


    (be open minded about this. as i am with you)
    Lol dont tell Bod, he will use that as evidence against the bible. Ok so just to have it clear that we both agree the scripture refers to “general all fullness” and now we can move on.  I disagree about the 2:9 point.  Why i say this. because it doesnt say it pleased the father that the fullness of the Godhead was in Christ. anyways its a seperate point from the subject in hand.  
    The context refers to all life, time, space, and matter is created by Christ.  So therefore i relate fullness to that, all creation and power within this “limited world”
    So mike back to your logic, its not the same now.  ITs not stating his exact fullness. but the fullnes of everything that is. so its not fullness begatting fullness.

    Co 2:9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

    verse 9 is incomplete.  note the word “and” afterwards.  Christ is noted as Head not only the church but of all principality and power.  I would use that to say that for once the Father is not noted as the head.  Yet Jesus is suppose to be the right hand of power?  Where is the right side of the throne of the omnipresent God?

    Quote
    What?  To borrow a line from Stu….. it's English I'll grant you, but that doesn't seem to be much help.  


    Jesus has a power beyond flesh before taking flesh. He always had a fullness about him.  

    Quote
    Okay.  But who is the most supreme of all?  I don't understand how so many people want to go all weird and add totally crazy ideas to what the Bible teaches.  It is really quite simple.  God was alone.  He begat a Son.  He and His Son created everything else.  If you begat a son it would simply mean that you are now the father to your son.  Why should it be any different with God?  Isn't He the one who set up our languages and understandings?  Why would His Son also be Him when none of our sons are us?  It's just silly to me.


    I have  a question mike? do you just pick and choose what your going to respond to and ignore the rest?  How can you say that God was alone?  I think you dont want to things spiritually or by roles.  I agree if i stuck my mind to only look at things between father and son than i would agree.
    but it seems to me like the prodigal son story that Jesus told spoke of a crazy disobeident son, yet there was a father.  where is the son in this story?  we have a father of a son and a son.
    we were created by the SON?
    yet our creator died for us.
    Its not the same.  We have a Son that acts like a father.  and has the rights by spiritual ways and by mans ways to be the king of kings.
    What does the Son of God really mean?
    i would like to define that.

    #200218
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 27 2010,17:21)

    Quote (Oxy @ June 26 2010,10:22)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2010,15:48)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2010,13:39)
    Hi MB,
    Are you not yet a son begotten of God?


    No Nick, for Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God.

    mike


    Jesus is the only begotten of the Father, but we who have received Christ have been grafted into the vine so that we may be joint heirs with the Son, also sons of God, born of the Spirit.


    Hi Oxy,

    Haven't you heard?  Monogenes doesn't mean “only begotten” anymore – it means “unique”.  And we are to be joint heirs “of” Christ, not “with” him.   :)   Such are the adjustments of men who will do anything to prove that Jesus is God Almighty, equal to the Father.

    peace and love,
    mike


    Haven't I heard? Of course I've heard. What's your point?

    #200223
    JustAskin
    Participant

    Gene,

    Your response to me is flawed, seriously.

    First off, the 'them' are the elect, it is not ALL people.

    This is why I keep stating that posters here should be careful about claiming a place in Heaven because the Disciple and Apostles say 'We will become Sons of God' and similar.

    Yes, 'they' will, and a little less than 144,000 more. But none of 'us', not of the Apostleship, Saints, Prophets, Elders, must not claim the prize, but instead, suggest a 'hope' of such a prize.
    So you say, Jesus is going back to the place that he was 'preconceived', as an idea in God's head, so to speak?
    Jesus is 'Ascending' to God's mind, and 'the we…the elect' will join him as an idea?

    But yet we see Jesus in Heaven 'standing at the righthand of the power of God'.

    Serious flaw, my man. It is not surprising, then, that you did not respond before, twice then before…

    Tell me, Gene,…in humbleness… Did it disturb you to respond in this flawed manner?
    Did you feel the 'Sin' in you when you made up your flawed response?

    You also suggest to Mike that Jesus was being spoken to by God who was telling him what to say.
    Well, Scriptures clearly has Jesus stating that his Father taught him what to say and then 'Sent him'.

    For sure, Jesus communicated with his Father continuously throughout his time on earth and that is a fine example to all of us. But Jesus was already instructed in his ambassadorship 'before' hebwas dispatched as an embassador…and is this not normal, even for humans? Ha! And aren't humans imitating God?

    Gene, seriously, try to align Scriptures with your ideas…they don't fit…the 'preexistent' part I mean.

    The rest is mainly Scriptural and I would concur as far as I have not looked closely.

    But then, for you to deliberately force fit 'going back to preconceived', man, that's hard to take that you say that…

    Please, indulge me one more time.
    Please say again what you think Jesus means when he says, 'What if you see the son of man ascending to where he once was'

    And,
    'Father, glorify me now with the glory i had with you before the world was'

    And, in line with that, who was with God when God said, 'Let us make man…'

    Gene, this time, please answer with Holy Spirited honesty.

    Thank you.

    #200225
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    Ja,
    explain your 144,000 statement.

    #200312
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Hi Dennison,

    You said:

    Quote
    I have  a question mike? do you just pick and choose what your going to respond to and ignore the rest?  

    Okay, fair enough.  You sometimes post things like a 1st grader.  You don't use proper punctuation or capitalize the first letter of a new sentence, etc.  Then you go all off on quasi-philisophical rants that IMO have nothing at all to do with what we are discussing.  In short, it is HARD to follow the thoughts that you post.  Gene has had problems with them, and I saw where JA posted something similar just the other day.  You want me to not skip over things?  Okay, let's take it ONE POINT AT A TIME, then I can't possibly miss your point.  We'll start here:

    I said:

    Quote
    Okay.  The NIV, which I quoted has “His fullness”.  I see from the Greek that you are right – it just says “fullness”.  But, by comparing 1:19 with 2:9, it is clear to me that it  means God's fullness.  But if it doesn't, so what?  This “all fullness” dwells in Jesus for one reason only – because it pleased Jesus' Father and God for it to be this way.

    You said:

    Quote
    Ok so just to have it clear that we both agree the scripture refers to “general all fullness” and now we can move on.

    No, I don't agree.  Col 1:19 in the NIV says:
    19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

    I agree with these 100 scholars that it applies to “God's” fullness.  Why?  Compare to Col 2:9,

    9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

    By comparing to 2:9, we can reasonably assume that it is God's fullness that Paul talks about in both places – agreed?

    So my logic question remains:  If Jesus WAS God, why say all of God's fullness dwells in him?

    And Eph 3:19 says,

    19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

    We too, have the hope of being filled with the fullness of God. Will we be God?

    peace and love,
    mike

    #200315
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (JustAskin @ June 27 2010,18:43)
    Gene,

    Your response to me is flawed, seriously.

    First off, the 'them' are the elect, it is not ALL people.

    This is why I keep stating that posters here should be careful about claiming a place in Heaven because the Disciple and Apostles say 'We will become Sons of God' and similar.

    Yes, 'they' will, and a little less than 144,000 more. But none of 'us', not of the Apostleship, Saints, Prophets, Elders, must not claim the prize, but instead, suggest a 'hope' of such a prize.
    So you say, Jesus is going back to the place that he was 'preconceived', as an idea in God's head, so to speak?
    Jesus is 'Ascending' to God's mind, and 'the we…the elect' will join him as an idea?

    But yet we see Jesus in Heaven 'standing at the righthand of the power of God'.

    Serious flaw, my man. It is not surprising, then, that you did not respond before, twice then before…

    Tell me, Gene,…in humbleness… Did it disturb you to respond in this flawed manner?
    Did you feel the 'Sin' in you when you made up your flawed response?

    You also suggest to Mike that Jesus was being spoken to by God who was telling him what to say.
    Well, Scriptures clearly has Jesus stating that his Father taught him what to say and then 'Sent him'.

    For sure, Jesus communicated with his Father continuously throughout his time on earth and that is a fine example to all of us. But Jesus was already instructed in his ambassadorship 'before' hebwas dispatched as an embassador…and is this not normal, even for humans? Ha! And aren't humans imitating God?

    Gene, seriously, try to align Scriptures with your ideas…they don't fit…the 'preexistent' part I mean.

    The rest is mainly Scriptural and I would concur as far as I have not looked closely.

    But then, for you to deliberately force fit 'going back to preconceived', man, that's hard to take that you say that…

    Please, indulge me one more time.
    Please say again what you think Jesus means when he says, 'What if you see the son of man ascending to where he once was'

    And,
    'Father, glorify me now with the glory i had with you before the world was'

    And, in line with that, who was with God when God said, 'Let us make man…'

    Gene, this time, please answer with Holy Spirited honesty.

    Thank you.


    Hi JA,

    Good post to Gene, but why did you need to add the insults?  You have been doing a good job as moderator as far as trying to keep posts on topic.  So my “pet project” is to try to eliminate the insults and ridicules that so often accompany posts.  What good does it do?  0 good.  What harm does it do?  Plenty.

    Something Karmarie posted once has stuck with me.  She said, in effect, that she doesn't like posting in the heated debates for fear of incurring the harsh wrath and mean, insulting words of KJ.  Is that what Christians who are on this site to further their knowledge of God should be worried about?  Should we be afraid to ask an honest question for fear the others will say, “Ha Ha!  You're so stupid!  You're an idiot!  :D “?

    Gene has just as much of a right to his view as you and I do to ours, JA.  I agree with you that his view does not align with scripture, and have scripturally tried to show him this.  But why should I include a slam or a ridicule?  Is Gene's alleged misunderstanding really a preconceived “SIN” on his part, as you imply?

    People, PLEASE can we try our best to act more Christian-like?  I'm talking also to myself.

    peace and love to all,
    mike

    #200318
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 27 2010,23:30)
    Hi Dennison,

    You said:

    Quote
    I have  a question mike? do you just pick and choose what your going to respond to and ignore the rest?  

    Okay, fair enough.  You sometimes post things like a 1st grader.  You don't use proper punctuation or capitalize the first letter of a new sentence, etc.  Then you go all off on quasi-philisophical rants that IMO have nothing at all to do with what we are discussing.  In short, it is HARD to follow the thoughts that you post.  Gene has had problems with them, and I saw where JA posted something similar just the other day.  You want me to not skip over things?  Okay, let's take it ONE POINT AT A TIME, then I can't possibly miss your point.  We'll start here:

    I said:

    Quote
    Okay.  The NIV, which I quoted has “His fullness”.  I see from the Greek that you are right – it just says “fullness”.  But, by comparing 1:19 with 2:9, it is clear to me that it  means God's fullness.  But if it doesn't, so what?  This “all fullness” dwells in Jesus for one reason only – because it pleased Jesus' Father and God for it to be this way.

    You said:

    Quote
    Ok so just to have it clear that we both agree the scripture refers to “general all fullness” and now we can move on.

    No, I don't agree.  Col 1:19 in the NIV says:
    19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

    I agree with these 100 scholars that it applies to “God's” fullness.  Why?  Compare to Col 2:9,

    9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

    By comparing to 2:9, we can reasonably assume that it is God's fullness that Paul talks about in both places – agreed?

    So my logic question remains:  If Jesus WAS God, why say all of God's fullness dwells in him?

    And Eph 3:19 says,

    19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

    We too, have the hope of being filled with the fullness of God.  Will we be God?

    peace and love,
    mike


    Hi Mike

    ouch i write like a 1st grader..
    sorry i dont take the time to correct my posts. i just write, and post.

    ok lets start.
    This what you orginally said!

    Quote
    Okay.  The NIV, which I quoted has “His fullness”.  I see from the Greek that you are right – it just says “fullness”.  But, by comparing 1:19 with 2:9, it is clear to me that it  means God's fullness.  But if it doesn't, so what?  This “all fullness” dwells in Jesus for one reason only – because it pleased Jesus' Father and God for it to be this way.

    I responded:

    Quote
    Ok so just to have it clear that we both agree the scripture refers to “general all fullness” and now we can move on.

    because im thinking we agreed already.

    now you continue with 2:9 which i disagreed with and responded.

    Quote
    I disagree about the 2:9 point.  Why i say this. because it doesnt say it pleased the father that the fullness of the Godhead was in Christ. anyways its a seperate point from the subject in hand.  
    The context refers to all life, time, space, and matter is created by Christ.  So therefore i relate fullness to that, all creation and power within this “limited world”
    So mike back to your logic, its not the same now.  ITs not stating his exact fullness. but the fullnes of everything that is. so its not fullness begatting fullness.

    Co 2:9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

    verse 9 is incomplete.  note the word “and” afterwards.  Christ is noted as Head not only the church but of all principality and power.  I would use that to say that for once the Father is not noted as the head.  Yet Jesus is suppose to be the right hand of power?  Where is the right side of the throne of the omnipresent God?

    your last response with

    Quote
    No, I don't agree.  Col 1:19 in the NIV says:
    19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

    I agree with these 100 scholars that it applies to “God's” fullness.  Why?  Compare to Col 2:9,

    9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

    By comparing to 2:9, we can reasonably assume that it is God's fullness that Paul talks about in both places – agreed?

    So my logic question remains:  If Jesus WAS God, why say all of God's fullness dwells in him?

    And Eph 3:19 says,

    19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

    We too, have the hope of being filled with the fullness of God.  Will we be God?

    peace and love,
    mike

    I would say no i disagree. the context of the first chapter does not talk about Gods fullness.  First of all in the first chapter it talks about what Christ did, and who he was.  therefore i think abot the fullness is all creation.
    second 2:9 is a seperate point.  and it doesnt talk abotu pleasing the father through this fullness in the Godhead.
    and it refers to Jesus being the HEAD of all power. and since the sentenced continued and spoke of Christ which says in WHOM, or what not, is the head of all power.

    either way you already agreed that in greek it refers to what i stated to ch.1.  So therefore the only thing left to argue is whether 2:9 is also included within your logic.

    #200334
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Hi Dennison,

    I absolutely LOVE point by point.   :)   We are getting somewhere!

    Okay, so we disagree on whether 1:19 refers to the fullness of God or fullness in general.  Let's assume you are right, because that IS, after all what the Greek says.

    My logic is:  IF Jesus IS God, then it is already assumed that all fullness dwells in him, why say once that
    “all fullness in general” dwells in him and then, like 10 sentences later say that all the fullness “of God” dwells in him?

    You said:

    Quote
    either way you already agreed that in greek it refers to what i stated to ch.1.  So therefore the only thing left to argue is whether 2:9 is also included within your logic.

    Let's compare scripturally.

    Titus 2:13
    13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

    Trinitarians like to quote this scripture as Paul calling Jesus “our great God”.  But the Greek actually says,

    manifestation     of     the     great      god     of us     and      of savior      of jesus     christ

    And as further proof that Paul wasn't saying Jesus was our God in this scripture, I offer,

    Eph 1:2
    2Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Now what if Paul had said, “peace to you from our God and Lord Jesus Christ”?  But because he clearly spells out that it is the Father who is God in his openings of his letters to the Ephesians, the Corinthians,

    1 Cor 1:3
    3Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    the Colossians,

    3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

    and every letter he addresses, we can logically assume that he doesn't think Jesus is God in Titus 2:13.  I think the same applies with Col 1:19.  Because of 2:9, I think it is clear.  And you like to say that “the head of” wording is further implying that Jesus is God, but what of the scripture that makes it clear that man is the head of woman, Christ is the head of man, and GOD IS THE HEAD OF CHRIST?

    peace and love,
    mike

    #200337
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 28 2010,01:07)
    Hi Dennison,

    I absolutely LOVE point by point.   :)   We are getting somewhere!

    Okay, so we disagree on whether 1:19 refers to the fullness of God or fullness in general.  Let's assume you are right, because that IS, after all what the Greek says.

    My logic is:  IF Jesus IS God, then it is already assumed that all fullness dwells in him, why say once that
    “all fullness in general” dwells in him and then, like 10 sentences later say that all the fullness “of God” dwells in him?

    You said:

    Quote
    either way you already agreed that in greek it refers to what i stated to ch.1.  So therefore the only thing left to argue is whether 2:9 is also included within your logic.

    Let's compare scripturally.

    Titus 2:13
    13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

    Trinitarians like to quote this scripture as Paul calling Jesus “our great God”.  But the Greek actually says,

    manifestation     of     the     great      god     of us     and      of savior      of jesus     christ

    And as further proof that Paul wasn't saying Jesus was our God in this scripture, I offer,

    Eph 1:2
    2Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Now what if Paul had said, “peace to you from our God and Lord Jesus Christ”?  But because he clearly spells out that it is the Father who is God in his openings of his letters to the Ephesians, the Corinthians,

    1 Cor 1:3
    3Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    the Colossians,

    3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

    and every letter he addresses, we can logically assume that he doesn't think Jesus is God in Titus 2:13.  I think the same applies with Col 1:19.  Because of 2:9, I think it is clear.  And you like to say that “the head of” wording is further implying that Jesus is God, but what of the scripture that makes it clear that man is the head of woman, Christ is the head of man, and GOD IS THE HEAD OF CHRIST?

    peace and love,
    mike


    Hi Mike,

    I think you went off in a tangent.

    Quote
    we can logically assume that he doesn't think Jesus is God in Titus 2:13.

    I thought we were discussing abuot ch1 and 2 of collosians.
    im not going to answer the rest because its a new point to argue.

    I stil state that the fullness refered doesnt state of Gods but of all life, every power.

    Why do i state this.
    The Context of the first chapter
    verse 1-13 talks about how WE should be like,
    14-20-is the description of Christ and his power.

    lets add verse 20 by the way,
    20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
    now 21-29 refers back to us.

    now the second chapter refers to a whole new point, of conditions concerning us.  but its not the same when related to the last chapter of Jesus description,

    you cannot use that one scripture(2:9) and state that its overrides the context of the first chapter.

    in this case context of Pauls intent, and the orginal greek (that YOU agreed about) holds.

    WE agree so far about the greek,
    we disagree about interpretation.  
    I agree with exactly what is stated and using context to explain what fullness is.

    2:9 doesnt count as the full context of chapter 1.  

    Now that where we are right now from what i know to agree about the “fullness” or not.
    im not argueing at this moment that Jesus is God or not,
    we are talking about the fullness. onced this is over than we can continue a new point.

    #200338
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    Mike and to add,
    that greetings point is so STOLEN from david! lol
    we will get into it later…

    #200352
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    The reason it's so difficult to accept is because Jesus' deity is a paradox.

    Paradoxes are always hard to comprehend.

    He was both fully man and fully God.

    Whether you say God was in him or he is, doesn't change the implication.

    A lot of verses refer to his human form and goal as a human.

    A lot of verse refer to his Godship and his goal as God.

    Scripture doesn't make sense and is contradictory if you choose EITHER.

    But if you accept BOTH, then scripture is reconciled.

    If Jesus was not God, then we're all going to hell for the greatest form of idolatry.

    If he is God, then his death is the greatest story of compassion to ever exist for anyone and anything.

    That The God of the universe and all things is willing to die for his creation called Man.

    #200354
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Quote (Oxy @ June 27 2010,18:27)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 27 2010,17:21)

    Quote (Oxy @ June 26 2010,10:22)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2010,15:48)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2010,13:39)
    Hi MB,
    Are you not yet a son begotten of God?


    No Nick, for Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God.

    mike


    Jesus is the only begotten of the Father, but we who have received Christ have been grafted into the vine so that we may be joint heirs with the Son, also sons of God, born of the Spirit.


    Hi Oxy,

    Haven't you heard?  Monogenes doesn't mean “only begotten” anymore – it means “unique”.  And we are to be joint heirs “of” Christ, not “with” him.   :)   Such are the adjustments of men who will do anything to prove that Jesus is God Almighty, equal to the Father.

    peace and love,
    mike


    Haven't I heard?  Of course I've heard.  What's your point?


    Are you sure Oxy?

    Monogenes is from the greek words ‘monos’ and ‘genos’. The Strong’s Concordance defines it as “only-born”; but let’s investigate a little deeper

    The first article of Monogenes is 3441 monos mon'-os which is defined as: remaining, i.e. sole or single; by implication, mere:–alone, only.

    The Second article is 1085 genov genos ghen’-os which means an offspring or kind. It is translated ‘Born’ in Acts 18:22 and 18:24. It is translated ‘offspring’ in Acts 17:28.

    In the New Testament, and in the writings of Ante-Nicene Christians, the term Monogenes takes the more stable denotation of its root ‘ginomai’ (1096).{which is defined as; to cause to be (“gen”-erate or to be born)}, and thus is reckoned as ‘only begotten’.

    And what is the specific meaning of monogenes in the New Testament? It is used only in reference to sons or daughters, in view of the literal relationship that exists between parent and offspring. It is used repeatedly by Christian writers who lived closest to the age of the Apostles to denote the filial relationship between God and Christ. And it is the cornerstone for the pre-temporal generation of the Son from the Father doctrine, which was held universally among Christians prior to 400 AD (Modalists being exempted) and was held almost universally until the last two hundred years.

    #200355
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi RM,
    He is not God but God's Son.
    You argue with him.

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