John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 3,761 through 3,780 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #199682
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2010,14:59)
    Let me rephrase it.

    I don't understand.  YHVH is God.  You say Jesus is NOT YHVH.  There is only one God, so……?

    mike  
    :D


    Jesus comes FROM YHVH.
    Nothing in creation comes directly from YHVH…only Jesus.

    Jesus is not YHVH himself (the original source of all things).
    He comes directly from that source, being a PIECE of that source.

    So he is AS much the source as the source is, itself.
    But he is NOT the source.

    Like a cup of ocean water is as MUCH ocean water as the ocean itself, yet it is not the ocean itself.

    Jesus is as much God as YHVH is God, yet he is not directly YHVH.

    This is so because Jesus is FROM YHVH…the bible says, a requisite for our faith is to believe Jesus is FROM God.

    However it means the same thing to be from God and God.
    Just like it meant the same thing to be God and with God (this expresses his division via manifestation) as John 1 states.
    ——

    This understanding, establishes only 1 God, with many manifestations…(Bible says nothing wrong with God manifesting himself as many times as he wants, and every manifestation was recognized to be God himself)

    And reconciles why we worship and pray to Jesus…in whom being a manifestation of God is credited to be the creator of all things (by his very hands) and why every knee shall bow to him. And why he is King of kings, Lord of lords.

    It all makes sense if you understand Jesus is a manifestation of God…

    If he's not, then christianity is very f***ed up, and all christians are going to hell for the greatest form of idolatry.

    If Jesus was just a mere man annointed, then we're all screwed.

    #199684
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Rm……All thing came from GOD, So you say Because Jesus had God's seed he is different then us , Well what about Adam and EVE are they also different because they had GOD Seed in them right, He was their Father, in fact the scripture calls Adam the SON of GOD. Why would you think what GOD did to Mary was and bigger thing then what He did to ADAM and EVE? IMO

    peace and love…………………..gene

    #199685
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    messed up, scroll down.

    #199686
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ June 22 2010,10:35)
    Hi RM:

    You seem to want to use the words soul and spirit as being the same thing, and I do not believe that they are.  The soul in my understanding is the mind, the will, and emotions.  The spirit is the life that the person lives.

    The Father and the Son (Jesus) are two distinct souls.  They are not the same person each has his own mind, will and emotions.  The Son was born into the world a living Soul.  He was born an innocent man-child just like any other human being except that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of a woman, and not born the sperm of man.  His body, then, was God's own flesh and blood.

    Jesus said, that he who has seen him has seen the Father and he was speaking of seeing the Father through his obedience to the Father's Word, and therefore, the spirit that was formed within him, the Word of God, is God.  God is a spirit of love.  Jesus is the last Adam, and is the “express image of God's person”.  God made man in his own image.  The first man like Him in that he had a mind, a will, and emotions, and the last Adam like Him in that he is a spirit of love.

    Yes, I believe we can say that God tasted death through the person of Jesus, His Christ and His Son in that He anguished through all that was done to His Son, but it was necessary in order to overcome what the most wicked man could do.  Jesus obeyed God without sin in spite of what men could do to him.

    The conclusion is that there is “Only One God”.  All that is in this world and in this universe both seen and unseen comes from Him and Him alone.

    Jesus is God's Christ, the Son of the Living God, and that is what the scripture states, and so, let's just leave it at that.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Good post, but when you said

    Quote
    Jesus said, that he who has seen him has seen the Father and he was speaking of seeing the Father through his obedience to the Father's Word, and therefore, the spirit that was formed within him

    That is your interpretation. The bible doesn't explicitly conclude to YOUR conclusion. The same can be interpreted differently and can be taken literally. As in The Father manifested as a son…

    When you also said

    Quote
    Jesus is the last Adam, and is the “express image of God's person”.

    Nice how you manipulated that statement to fit your cause. Even though, the bible says that in hebrews. It also says, Jesus is the express image of God period.

    Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    Mind you, the word: OVER is not an inclusionary word, it's distinctive. If I say I STAND OVER YOU, it doesn't mean I stand WITH you, it means I stand ABOVE you.

    So he is the firstborn above all creation.

    The only thing above creation are Angels and God himself. And we know Jesus isn't an angel.

    You also said

    Quote
    Yes, I believe we can say that God tasted death through the person of Jesus

    I'm sorry, I don't agree. If this were so, then God tastes death through ALL OF US. And the bible explicitely states…

    Is 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
         He has put Him to grief.
         When You make His soul an offering for sin,
         He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
         And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

    It pleased YHVH to crush Jesus…

    Quote
    The conclusion is that there is “Only One God”.  All that is in this world and in this universe both seen and unseen comes from Him and Him alone.

    Scripture would agree with you, but disagree with your interpretation.

    Because EVERYTHING SEEN AND UNSEEN WAS ATTRIBUTED TO THE SON JESUS CHRIST.

    ———-
    Plus, by your logic and by scripture…we have only ONE GOD…am i right?'

    Well you say WE HAVE ONLY ONE GOD, and I AGREE…I JUST BELIEVE WE HAVE ONLY ONE GOD WITH MANY MANIFESTATIONS.

    I AM ATTACKED HOWEVER THAT MY APPROACH IS INCORRECT.

    You stated scripture says Jesus is God's Son, lets leave it at that.

    And I agree that he is God's Son, and you can leave it at that sure enough. But the dilemma is understanding WHAT IT MEANS TO BE THE OFFSPRING OF YHVH HIMSELF.

    That's where i've taken my understanding.

    What does it truly mean to be God's Son.

    Well if you understand the eternality (if thats a word) of God, and his infinite vastness.

    To be the offspring of such a being would be impossible.

    The only way Jesus could be God's literal begotten son, is if Jesus was YHVH himself manifested as a son.

    It's the only thing that could make sense.
    ——–
    But wait, it seems scripture agrees with me!!!!

    1 timothy 3:16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    – So i rest my case.

    #199687
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2010,02:54)
    Rm……All thing came from GOD, So you say Because Jesus had God's seed he is different then us , Well what about Adam and EVE are they also different because they had GOD Seed in them right, He was their Father,  in fact the scripture calls Adam the SON of GOD. Why would you think what GOD did to Mary was and bigger thing then what He did to ADAM and EVE? IMO

    peace and love…………………..gene


    Because Adam and Eve were a part of creation. Jesus made creation. I would like to think that is wayyyyy bigger.

    If Adam and Eve were God's son in the same light Jesus was…they wouldn't of sinned.

    Righteousness is always greater than disobedience…

    Isn't that simple logic?

    Plus I would like for you to provide the verse that says Adam and Eve is/are the Son of God.

    (Only cuz both adam and eve were one being at one time, before they were seperated).

    #199689
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    RM…..It doesn't say Eve was , that was my conclusion, But it certainly does say ADAM WAS A SON of GOD.

    Luk 3:38….> Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the SON OF GOD.

    peace and love to you and yours……………gene

    #199693
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2010,03:23)
    RM…..It doesn't say Eve was , that was my conclusion, But it certainly does say ADAM WAS A SON of GOD.

    Luk 3:38….> Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the SON OF GOD.

    peace and love to you and yours……………gene


    well in the beginning God created man in his image, and seperated him and called him, them, male and female.

    So Eve so too is Adam.

    Some people refer to Adam, as Adam and Eve combined.

    So when you say Adam is the Son of God, eve was once a part of Adam…so she can also be recognized as God's Son/Daughter…however you want to reconcile the hermaphroditeness (I know it's not a word) of the situation.

    But if you choose to not believe Eve is The Son of God as much as Adam was, that's OK…don't think that interpretation counts for anything.

    ——–

    But back to the subject, thanks for posting the verse that shows Adam is a Son of God.

    Too bad, it didn't say he was a begotten son of God.

    You see the difference between Adam and Jesus…is that Adam was a PART of creation.

    He was MADE.

    Almost like you would craft a chair, or car, or any inanimate object.

    He was MADE from soil.

    So he was a son of God in the sense of creation, just like many other prophets and the angels.

    They were all made.

    Jesus however, was begotten.

    My understanding of begotten, is spawned.

    Jesus actually came from the FABRIC of God himself.

    That's my distinction between the two.

    #199694
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Also understand this…the meaning of people's names in the bible were just as important if not MORE important than the person itself.

    If it were translated fully from hebrew to english…

    The name adam would have been translated into Mankind.

    Then we wouldn't so much be looking at it from the person of Adam but rather as mankind as a whole.

    To tell the difference, would be nearly impossible as to what The OT was referring to.

    To say Adam the person was The Son of God…

    or Mankind is the Son of God, in distinction between Angels and other deities.

    ——

    And if you perceive it from a stand point of mankind…you'd include Adam the person and Eve the person…helping understand that women too can be Daughters of God.

    (Some people believe women shouldn't hold high offices in church, but I disagree and believe God can work through anyone).

    ———
    This isn't a definate stance or position, this is just my opinion and interpretation.

    Feel free to disagree, I can definately be wrong on this matter.

    Except for the fact that Adam was a Son, within the limits of creation, and Jesus literally being a Son spawned from God's very own fabric.

    #199696
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2010,20:17)
    Hi SF,
    The Spirit is of God and is one.
    The Spirit was given to Jesus=the Spirit of Christ
    The Spirit proceeds from God and we can reach the heart of God and be one in that Spirit.[Jn15, 1cor2. Jn17]


    Jesus is a manifestation of God.

    All manifestations of God were recognized to be YHVH himself.

    Whether it be The Word of God, or The Angel of The Lord…
    They were all recognized and worshipped as God.

    From Abaraham > Moses > The Kings of Isarael…They all recognized the manifestations as God himself.

    ——
    Lets understand what a manifestation of God is???

    The Image of God within creation.
    ——

    This isn't to be confused with being MADE in the image like mankind.

    This is to be understood as, THE ACTUAL IMAGE of the invisble God within creation.

    In Jesus' case…this image/manifestation was made to be HUMAN.

    Now because God manifests himself in many forms and ways…does each manifestation attribute to God being a plurality?

    More than one God?

    No, ansolutely not….

    There is and always will be One God.

    Yet he manifests in many different forms. Jesus being one of them.

    So when I say Jesus is God.

    I say that in the same light as The Angel of The Lord was recognized as YHVH, or The Word of God was recognized as YHVH.

    So I too recognize Jesus in Flesh as the manifestation of YHVH.

    #199697
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    RM…..Jesus referenced Our Father and His Father as the Same Person or being, “for I am going to my Father and Your Father, my God and Your God. He did not seem to make any destination of himself and ourselves”. We are told to pray
    Our Father which art in Heaven” , and many other places reference God the father as Equally our Father as Jesus'. IMO

    I believe the word Begotten is just another word for brought into (BEING).

    peace and love…………………….gene

    #199698
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi RM,
    Jesus is the Son of God. The Spirit of Christ is the manifestation of God.
    He was filled with the Spirit.

    #199749
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (JustAskin @ June 24 2010,19:11)
    The Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God become one Spirit, one embodiment in you and that one becomes one with your own spirit making you one spirit in all. This means agreement of purpose and desire, all three spirits acting in perfect unison, a single spiritual embodiment.


    Hi JA,

    Spirit is my area of least understanding, I think.  But you did a fantastic job explaining all that in your post.  I'm starting to get it, and will look forward to getting to Romans this time through the Bible so I can apply your understanding to the scripture. (I'm only in Ezekiel so far, so it will be a while.  :)  )

    peace and love,
    mike

    #199750
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi JA,
    The spirit of all men including Jesus leaves at death.[Ecc12]
    The only life after that is that of the new creation in God's Spirit.

    #199751
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (JustAskin @ June 24 2010,19:11)
    The Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God become one Spirit, one embodiment in you and that one becomes one with your own spirit making you one spirit in all. This means agreement of purpose and desire, all three spirits acting in perfect unison, a single spiritual embodiment.


    Hi JA,

    Spirit is my area of least understanding, I think.  But you did a fantastic job explaining all that in your post.  I'm starting to get it, and will look forward to getting to Romans this time through the Bible so I can apply your understanding to the scripture. (I'm only in Ezekiel so far, so it will be a while.  :)  )

    peace and love,
    mike

    #199752
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi JA,
    Our spirit does not become holy and then joined with God's.
    We offer nothing useful back to God but He shares His life with us.

    #199757
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Hi Dennison,

    You are going off on some quasi-time warp philosophy stuff occasionally.  Let's stick to what the Bible teaches, and not imply we know whether God acted “within the boundaries of time” or in the 5th dimension or other such nonsense that isn't spoken of in scripture.

    I said:

    Quote
    All the fullness of God would have already been in Jesus if he was God.  If Jesus was God, then it means that Jesus was pleased to have all the fullness of Jesus dwell in Jesus.  

    Please directly answer this logic.  If God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Jesus, then Jesus simply wasn't God, or that fullness would have already been dwelling in him.  Would it make sense if I said I was pleased to have all the fullness of Mike dwell in Mike?   ???

    You said:

    Quote
    lets not play games if your just argueing for the sake of arugeing.

    I resent that implication.  You said God HAD to redeem us through Jesus.  I said you were limiting a limitless God and He could have just wiped us all out.  You again limited God by saying He couldn't have done that because He is love.  So I showed you many instances when humans were either wiped out or were about to be wiped out to show you God could still be love whether sinful humans existed or not.  I simply do NOT like that you limit the ways God HAD to do things.  That is all.   :)

    You said:

    Quote
    you are stating that the Father is not the Son.
    I say vise versa.

    ok these are respective roles, not distinct identities.  
    Therefore its not man and fish, but Father and son.
    Roles brother.

    Unless your argueing Man and God.
    which would make NO SENSE, since Christ existed before flesh as the Word.

    Of course it's man and God we're discussing.  Remember?  You said Jesus was FULLY man and FULLY God?  And why would Christ existing as the Word have anything to do with FULLY man and FULLY God?   ???   Haven't you noticed that most of Jesus' titles contain OF God?  Word OF God, Son OF God, Anointed one OF God, the outstretched Arm OF God.  And he was the Savior OF God's people.  He is (or will be) King OF God's Kingdom.  Think it out, he is OF God and calls God “my God”.  Isn't that a strange way for “God” to talk?  Does God have a God?  ???

    peace and love,
    mike

    #199763
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2010,05:38)
    I believe the word Begotten is just another word for brought into (BEING).


    Hi Gene and RM,

    RM, I agree with you 100% that Jesus was begotten, and that means he is the only thing in existence that came DIRECTLY from God.  All other things came FROM God THROUGH Jesus and were CREATED by God through Jesus, not begotten by God like Jesus was.

    And Gene, I would go farther than your statement and say that “brought into being” is EXACTLY what is meant by begotten.  Actually, if refers more to fathers than mothers.  We are begotten by fathers and born of mothers.

    RM, why do you think that because Jesus came from God, he must be God?  Do you think the Father and Son are two different beings, or one?

    peace and love,
    mike

    #199764
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Are you not yet a son begotten of God?

    #199765
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2010,12:39)
    Hi JA,
    The spirit of all men including Jesus leaves at death.[Ecc12]
    The only life after that is that of the new creation in God's Spirit.


    nick

    you say;The spirit of all men including Jesus leaves at death.[Ecc12]
    The only life after that is that of the new creation in God's Spirit.

    if you are right in what you say ;tel me what would be new after dead???

    you should go and talk to Paul,because paul says that we come to christ and change our ways and create in our selves a new creation according to Gods will and so the old person is dead,now you are renewed,so that if you die it is the new person according to Gods will who recieved a new live,not the old,( the old as to die now or we will enter judgement)

    Pierre

    #199766
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2010,13:39)
    Hi MB,
    Are you not yet a son begotten of God?


    No Nick, for Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God.

    mike

Viewing 20 posts - 3,761 through 3,780 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account