John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 3,741 through 3,760 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #199305
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2010,08:29)

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 23 2010,13:35)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2010,07:11)
    Hi Gene,

    He is most likely going to hit you with the “he was in a limited, fleshly state when he said that” stuff.  But I am with you – just spit it out Dennison.  How is it that you DON'T think this is clear evidence that there is only ONE God, and that ONE is the Father?

    I'll shut up now and let you two discuss.   :)

    peace and love,
    mike


    Mike,
    Actually i didnt argue that.
    My orginal question was not that. as i jumped in as you just have jumped in, when i was referring to genes post to RM,
    who out of no where accuses me of dancing and avoiding?

    Im not KJ, and i am not whom ever you want to refer to as to avoid comments or posts.


    Okay, I'm sorry.  I didn't know the questions had been already posed to Gene.  But apparently, he didn't know what he was supposed to answer.  Couldn't you have just said this the first time he was confused and avoid all of this?  

    Quote
    than simply you believe that eternal life is by knowing the True God and Jesus christ.
    My orginal question: Yet God is Life, as i said before, the God of the living.
    I also stated that Jesus is Life, and that he is the way THE TRUTH and the LIGHT.

    I asked you, to explain to ME.
    how are both true if they are seperate entities.

    Gene, what we have here is……..

    mike


    Mike,

    lol the truth is,
    I forgot….. that i posed the orginal question. so i got confused, and i had to go back to how this all started.

    I forget things very easily.

    And Gene was referrring to another thread where he posed this same question and we already butted our heads till a bloody mess and got no where.

    but again, him like others, post things that dont make sense.
    at times.

    and he knows that im not a brute, because i have agreed with him in other things. like the seven spirits of God thread.

    so KJ accused me of cheating, Numbers accused me of speculating and adding to the word of God, and now Gene is stating that I DENNISON avoid posts.

    Wow… is there another person named simplyforgiven here? because these accusations dont represent my character nor personality within this thread.

    #199309
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    In context you will find it hard to show the Spirit of Christ is NOT the Spirit of God.
    God does not tangle up His words

    #199310
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Hi Dennison,

    You said:

    Quote
    God fullness dwelt in Christ, how is that possible? yet it pleased him, yet it also pleased God to crush him.

    let me post a question to you here mike,  are you sure it stating the fullness of the father?  or is it the fullness of all?
    What is this fullness?  because the scripture does not state its the fathers fullness.   but that in him should ALL fullness dwell.

    Well, you didn't answer my question, but I'll answer yours.  What I think is meant by “fullness” is all of God's great qualities.  His love, kindness, forgiveness, justness, etc.  And my point remains the same whether it refers to God OR some godhead of three (or even 50) persons.  IF they all are the SAME being, then any fullness one has is already the same fullness the others have.  So it couldn't sensibly be said that something of one dwells in another, for everything OF one is already OF all.  

    You said:

    Quote
    First of all there was no other way, this is Gods perfect choice.

    Wow, that's a pretty bold assumption.  All things are possible for God.  He could have decided to send those legions of angels down to whup some butt if He chose to.  He could have said “Enough is enough – this isn't worth it” and wiped us all out right then and there if He wanted.  You put limits on an unlimited God with your statement.

    You said:

    Quote
    Jesus was a Man, than it would be in human nature not to want to die.

    Really?  Right after you assert that when God raises His hand, Jesus raises his?  And now you speak of Jesus' “human nature”?  If Jesus WAS God because he could ONLY do God's will, then his “human nature” would never have come into play.

    You said:

    Quote
    Therefore he is fully human, yet fully something else, holy spirit or what not.

    This is trinitarian talk, Dennison.  They are always going on about 100% man, 100% God, but they don't even think it out that nothing can be more than 100%.  Per cent means “per 100” basically.  So he could have been 50% man and 50% God, or maybe 60/40, but nothing can be 200%.  It is mathematically impossible, I think.   :)   Anyway, I think the same about your “fully” statement.  He can be half and half, but not fully both – or the word fully wouldn't apply to either.  If we breed a cat with a dog, it would be part dog and part cat, not fully dog AND fully cat, right?

    When I have more time, I'll tell you my “Honey, I Shrunk the Kids” theory about Jesus coming as flesh.  :D

    peace and love to you, my friend
    mike

    #199315
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 23 2010,14:35)
    Mike,

    lol the truth is,
    I forgot….. that i posed the orginal question. so i got confused, and i had to go back to how this all started.

    I forget things very easily.

    And Gene was referrring to another thread where he posed this same question and we already butted our heads till a bloody mess and got no where.

    but again, him like others, post things that dont make sense.
    at times.

    and he knows that im not a brute, because i have agreed with him in other things. like the seven spirits of God thread.

    so KJ accused me of cheating, Numbers accused me of speculating and adding to the word of God, and now Gene is stating that I DENNISON avoid posts.

    Wow… is there another person named simplyforgiven here? because these accusations dont represent my character nor personality within this thread.


    Water under the bridge. I'm sure Gene will feel the same way. I'm anxious to see his reply. :)

    Numbers? :D :laugh: :D Ed, I love ya and I hope you are the kind of guy who is able to laugh at himself. Because that is FUNNY!

    And I agree. Sometimes it is hard to see what Gene is saying through all those parenthesis. :) Hey, it took me a month before I was able to understand what terra was saying. :) But now I've come to know that he is very sharp and scripturally knowledgable. To each his own, right?

    I enjoy conversing with you guys – Dennison, Ed, Gene and Kathi – even though we rarely agree on anything.

    peace and love,
    mike

    #199320
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2010,08:59)
    Hi Dennison,

    You said:

    Quote
    God fullness dwelt in Christ, how is that possible? yet it pleased him, yet it also pleased God to crush him.

    let me post a question to you here mike,  are you sure it stating the fullness of the father?  or is it the fullness of all?
    What is this fullness?  because the scripture does not state its the fathers fullness.   but that in him should ALL fullness dwell.

    Well, you didn't answer my question, but I'll answer yours.  What I think is meant by “fullness” is all of God's great qualities.  His love, kindness, forgiveness, justness, etc.  And my point remains the same whether it refers to God OR some godhead of three (or even 50) persons.  IF they all are the SAME being, then any fullness one has is already the same fullness the others have.  So it couldn't sensibly be said that something of one dwells in another, for everything OF one is already OF all.  

    You said:

    Quote
    First of all there was no other way, this is Gods perfect choice.

    Wow, that's a pretty bold assumption.  All things are possible for God.  He could have decided to send those legions of angels down to whup some butt if He chose to.  He could have said “Enough is enough – this isn't worth it” and wiped us all out right then and there if He wanted.  You put limits on an unlimited God with your statement.

    You said:

    Quote
    Jesus was a Man, than it would be in human nature not to want to die.

    Really?  Right after you assert that when God raises His hand, Jesus raises his?  And now you speak of Jesus' “human nature”?  If Jesus WAS God because he could ONLY do God's will, then his “human nature” would never have come into play.

    You said:

    Quote
    Therefore he is fully human, yet fully something else, holy spirit or what not.

    This is trinitarian talk, Dennison.  They are always going on about 100% man, 100% God, but they don't even think it out that nothing can be more than 100%.  Per cent means “per 100” basically.  So he could have been 50% man and 50% God, or maybe 60/40, but nothing can be 200%.  It is mathematically impossible, I think.   :)   Anyway, I think the same about your “fully” statement.  He can be half and half, but not fully both – or the word fully wouldn't apply to either.  If we breed a cat with a dog, it would be part dog and part cat, not fully dog AND fully cat, right?

    When I have more time, I'll tell you my “Honey, I Shrunk the Kids” theory about Jesus coming as flesh.  :D

    peace and love to you, my friend
    mike


    Hi Mike,

    Quote
    Well, you didn't answer my question, but I'll answer yours.  What I think is meant by “fullness” is all of God's great qualities.  His love, kindness, forgiveness, justness, etc.  And my point remains the same whether it refers to God OR some godhead of three (or even 50) persons.  IF they all are the SAME being, then any fullness one has is already the same fullness the others have.  So it couldn't sensibly be said that something of one dwells in another, for everything OF one is already OF all.


    I didnt because it depends what it meant by full. I dont believe it says about the Fathers fullness. but All whatever that means.  In that chapter it makes it seems that Jesus is the creator of this world and that life consists out of him. and that in the end of the description it says that it pleased God that EVERYTHING I.e. All fullness dwells in him.  
    thats what i think it means rather than the fathers qualities.

    Quote
    Wow, that's a pretty bold assumption.  All things are possible for God.  He could have decided to send those legions of angels down to whup some butt if He chose to.  He could have said “Enough is enough – this isn't worth it” and wiped us all out right then and there if He wanted.  You put limits on an unlimited God with your statement.


    I disagree with that compelelty.  I didnt say all things are impossible for God,  I very well believe that if he WANTED TO he could have done the things you have mentioned, the fact is he didnt, and because he didnt he chose that from the very beggining.  And by the way if God is love, he wouldnt do such a thing.  Like right now, i have the ability the through my computer out of the window, doesnt mean i would.  Just because God has the ability to do alot of things, doesnt mean he would WANT to.

    Quote
    Really?  Right after you assert that when God raises His hand, Jesus raises his?  And now you speak of Jesus' “human nature”?  If Jesus WAS God because he could ONLY do God's will, then his “human nature” would never have come into play


    lol yes really.
    maybe i exagerated in my last point.  because i dont think it was Gods desire that Jesus had to eat, or sleep or a number of things, that was all the human needs of Jesus. RM addresed this to me the other day.  But Christ concerning others and princples and who he was, had all the personality of the father, in other words the fathers will.  The agreement here is he did the Fathers will perfectly.  Yet Christ Human desires are due to his state of being.  Than we say omgosh welll he was limited, i would argue it wouldnt be the same, because before Christ was in the flesh, he did the fathers will and was not limited in those things.  So before he was flesh he did perfectly to the things of Gods will, and in flesh was still obediant.

    Quote
    This is trinitarian talk, Dennison.  They are always going on about 100% man, 100% God, but they don't even think it out that nothing can be more than 100%.  Per cent means “per 100” basically.  So he could have been 50% man and 50% God, or maybe 60/40, but nothing can be 200%.  It is mathematically impossible, I think.   :)   Anyway, I think the same about your “fully” statement.  He can be half and half, but not fully both – or the word fully wouldn't apply to either.  If we breed a cat with a dog, it would be part dog and part cat, not fully dog AND fully cat, right?

    When I have more time, I'll tell you my “Honey, I Shrunk the Kids” theory about Jesus coming as flesh.  :D

    peace and love to you, my friend
    mike

    Your fully father (if you have kids) and son in the very same time.
    Roles in life does not divide people into seperate beings.
    a Dog can be my pet and my friend at the very same time.
    anyways, when i say he was fully human, well obvious he was human, but he was born different, out of the seed of the holy spirit.  Could we say he is exactly like us?

    So in a since he is different yet not.
    Jesus was a man,
    was he a man before his flesh.
    simply no.
    He was the Word.
    It its irrevalnt whether he was fully man or not, because when time started he was the Son of God,
    yet the Son of Man in flesh.

    much love mike,

    Are you trying to spank me? (inside joke)

    #199322
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ June 23 2010,05:07)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2010,11:01)
    Hi ($,
    Does your understanding have any scriptural support?
    Is the SPIRIT Of CHRIST in ROMANS 8 not the Holy Spirit of God??


    Hi Nick:

    I have already given you my scriptural support.  Apparently you are not reading what I have stated, and no, I don't believe that the spirit of Christ in Romans 8 is the Holy Spirit,

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Niceeee

    #199328
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94
    Romans 8

    1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

    4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

    6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

    7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

    11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

    13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

    14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

    16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

    17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

    19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

    20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

    21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

    23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

    24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

    25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

    26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

    27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

    28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

    32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

    37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

    38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

    39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    #199330
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    How many Spirits are spoken of in Rom 8.
    Two-both in v16

    The spirit of man is mentioned there but all the rest speak of the ONE SPIRIT[1 cor12, eph4]

    #199332
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    Nick,
    your longest post yet,

    numbers my respect!

    #199334
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2010,07:08)

    Quote (RokkaMan @ June 21 2010,13:03)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 21 2010,09:56)

    Quote (RokkaMan @ June 21 2010,09:25)
    HI Nick Hassan,

    When Revelations says Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords what does that make YHVH?


    Hi RM,

    He will still be the God of gods,

    Psalm 136:2 NIV
    Give thanks to the God of gods. His love endures forever.

    mike


    I've said countless times…Jesus is not YHVH, but he is God!


    Hi RM,

    I don't understand.  YHVH is God.  You say Jesus is NOT YHVH.  There is only one God, so……?

    mike


    Just to help clarify
    he is stating that God is a title,

    just remember that mike,

    this is what he is saying that Jesus is not YHVH but he is God (title)

    #199354
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2010,15:09)
    Numbers?   :D  :laugh:  :D   Ed, I love ya and I hope you are the kind of guy who is able to laugh at himself.  Because that is FUNNY!

    peace and love,
    mike


    Hi Mike,

    Yes, I can laugh at myself but SF is referring to Marty as numbers (942767); not me.

    God bless
    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #199356
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ June 23 2010,12:22)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2010,15:09)
    Numbers?   :D  :laugh:  :D   Ed, I love ya and I hope you are the kind of guy who is able to laugh at himself.  Because that is FUNNY!

    peace and love,
    mike


    Hi Mike,

    Yes, I can laugh at myself but SF is referring to Marty as numbers (942767); not me.

    God bless
    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Mike and Ed

    I am chuckling at myself as we speak.
    clever no?

    :D :D

    #199538
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ June 23 2010,18:22)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2010,15:09)
    Numbers?   :D  :laugh:  :D   Ed, I love ya and I hope you are the kind of guy who is able to laugh at himself.  Because that is FUNNY!

    peace and love,
    mike


    Hi Mike,

    Yes, I can laugh at myself but SF is referring to Marty as numbers (942767); not me.

    God bless
    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Oops, sorry Ed. :)

    peace and love,
    mike

    #199543
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Hi Dennison,

    You said:

    Quote
    and that in the end of the description it says that it pleased God that EVERYTHING I.e. All fullness dwells in him.  
    thats what i think it means rather than the fathers qualities.

    Okay, but you didn't allow for this very simple point I made:

    Quote
    IF they all are the SAME being, then any fullness one has is already the same fullness the others have.  So it couldn't sensibly be said that something of one dwells in another, for everything OF one is already OF all.

    All the fullness of God would have already been in Jesus if he was God.  If Jesus was God, then it means that Jesus was pleased to have all the fullness of Jesus dwell in Jesus.  ???

    You said:

    Quote
    I very well believe that if he WANTED TO he could have done the things you have mentioned,

    Agreed.

    You said:

    Quote
    And by the way if God is love, he wouldnt do such a thing.

    I don't even know what that means.  Yes, God is love.  Did He set laws about killing the breakers of these laws?  Did He wipe out 185,000 living breathing Assyrians in one night?  Did He decide to wipe out every single Israelite after Aaron made the golden calf, but Moses pleaded with Him not to and He relented?  Did He send Nebuchadnezzar to destroy Jerusalem so badly that mothers had to boil and eat their own children?

    You said:

    Quote
    So before he was flesh he did perfectly to the things of Gods will, and in flesh was still obediant.

    Listen to yourself.  Jesus (someone other than God) did God's will.

    You said:

    Quote
    Your fully father (if you have kids) and son in the very same time.

    Come on, Dennison.  You know that's not the same thing.  for example, I can be fully Christian and fully Republican.  But I cannot be fully man and fully fish.

    peace and love,
    mike

    #199547
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 23 2010,15:59)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2010,07:08)

    Quote (RokkaMan @ June 21 2010,13:03)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 21 2010,09:56)

    Quote (RokkaMan @ June 21 2010,09:25)
    HI Nick Hassan,

    When Revelations says Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords what does that make YHVH?


    Hi RM,

    He will still be the God of gods,

    Psalm 136:2 NIV
    Give thanks to the God of gods. His love endures forever.

    mike


    I've said countless times…Jesus is not YHVH, but he is God!


    Hi RM,

    I don't understand.  YHVH is God.  You say Jesus is NOT YHVH.  There is only one God, so……?

    mike


    Just to help clarify
    he is stating that God is a title,

    just remember that mike,

    this is what he is saying that Jesus is not YHVH but he is God (title)


    But YHVH, your God is ONE. Not two or three, but ONE. And since Jesus thinks the only true God is YHVH, that is good enough for me. :)

    mike

    #199548
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Let me rephrase it.

    I don't understand. YHVH is God. You say Jesus is NOT YHVH. There is only one God, so……?

    mike
    :D

    #199629
    JustAskin
    Participant

    Nick,

    On page 11, …

    Verse 9. The Spirit of God dwells in you… But if you do not have the Spirit of Christ, you are not his.

    This means… if you have the Spirit of God in you then you are alive and abide by the law of the Spirit of God and not by the law of flesh.
    But if you do not have the Spirit of Christ, then you cannot have the Spirit of God…for we must come through Jesus to reach God.

    Note that 'Spirit' is a dual definition word and must be read in context.

    Spirit (1): the nature, embodiment, personification or apparent emination of a thing.
    Spirit (2): The nonphysical element of a being.

    So, Sp1 Can refer to things like, 'bondage' (Verse15) and 'the Spirit of Life (Verse 2)

    Sp2, is like, 'the Spirit of God', 'the Spirit of a man', 'the Spirit of Christ'

    You asked how many 'spirits' are mentioned and claimed only two… Read again you own post…given the definition i just gave.

    Acquire from God, through Christ, the Spirit of Wisdom.

    Let the Holy Spirit of God dwell in you mingling with your own Spirit, you who you are, and you will become one with God through the Spirit of Christ.

    The Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God become one Spirit, one embodiment in you and that one becomes one with your own spirit making you one spirit in all. This means agreement of purpose and desire, all three spirits acting in perfect unison, a single spiritual embodiment.
    This is possibly how the trinity started to take shape in thought just as the sinful thought in was nit checked and that one became a Satan.

    It is not three people in one spirit but three spirits in one person of man and the unison is one of purpose and Love not spiritual body…

    'Love unites and  the Spirit of God is 'Love',

    Having 'Love' you have 'Life' and having 'Life' you have creation of 'life from life, in love, with love'

    #199630
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    *Elder* Mike,

    Quote
    All the fullness of God would have already been in Jesus if he was God.  If Jesus was God, then it means that Jesus was pleased to have all the fullness of Jesus dwell in Jesus.  


    What does God mean by All than? That all life and creation consisted out of Christ. It please God before time began for his particpation within this world Which is Christ to have all fullness.  
    Wait does

    Quote
    I don't even know what that means.  Yes, God is love.  Did He set laws about killing the breakers of these laws?  Did He wipe out 185,000 living breathing Assyrians in one night?  Did He decide to wipe out every single Israelite after Aaron made the golden calf, but Moses pleaded with Him not to and He relented?  Did He send Nebuchadnezzar to destroy Jerusalem so badly that mothers had to boil and eat their own children?


    So your playing the devils advocate mike? FACT: God is love.
    Therefore if God loves, than he hates.  If you love children, therefore you hate abortion.
    God loves whats holy and hates what is not holy,
    God knew what he was doing, he knew that these people HATED HIM, so he wiped them out, knowing that they would never choose him. Lets not go into circles of arguements abotu thigns that we agree alreaddy, unless you really dont agree. lets not play games if your just argueing for the sake of arugeing.
    when i say that God is love, is that God cannot/chooses not to force people to choose him.

    Quote
    Listen to yourself.  Jesus (someone other than God) did God's will.


    Ok lets say you agree that God is Jesus.  if God was limited to a human state, to be a rolemodel in some sense, than he would stilll need to depend on himself.  

    actually let me drop that point, Because i do not know if the Bible says that Jesus was obedient before becoming flesh.  I dont think that before flesh, Christ was said to be obedient, but only in flesh was he obedient.  
    Than if thats true, than i would change my position and say he created on his own accord, and was sent into the world as Christ by the Father.

    Quote
    Come on, Dennison.  You know that's not the same thing.  for example, I can be fully Christian and fully Republican.  But I cannot be fully man and fully fish.


    Than we have are argueing the wrong thread.
    because you are stating that the Father is not the Son.
    I say vise versa.

    ok these are respective roles, not distinct identities.  
    Therefore its not man and fish, but Father and son.
    Roles brother.

    Unless your argueing Man and God.
    which would make NO SENSE, since Christ existed before flesh as the Word.

    much love,

    #199633
    Tim Kraft
    Participant

    Quote (JustAskin @ June 24 2010,19:11)
    Nick,

    On page 11, …

    Verse 9. The Spirit of God dwells in you… But if you do not have the Spirit of Christ, you are not his.

    This means… if you have the Spirit of God in you then you are alive and abide by the law of the Spirit of God and not by the law of flesh.
    But if you do not have the Spirit of Christ, then you cannot have the Spirit of God…for we must come through Jesus to reach God.

    Note that 'Spirit' is a dual definition word and must be read in context.

    Spirit (1): the nature, embodiment, personification or apparent emination of a thing.
    Spirit (2): The nonphysical element of a being.

    So, Sp1 Can refer to things like, 'bondage' (Verse15) and 'the Spirit of Life (Verse 2)

    Sp2, is like, 'the Spirit of God', 'the Spirit of a man', 'the Spirit of Christ'

    You asked how many 'spirits' are mentioned and claimed only two… Read again you own post…given the definition i just gave.

    Acquire from God, through Christ, the Spirit of Wisdom.

    Let the Holy Spirit of God dwell in you mingling with your own Spirit, you who you are, and you will become one with God through the Spirit of Christ.

    The Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God become one Spirit, one embodiment in you and that one becomes one with your own spirit making you one spirit in all. This means agreement of purpose and desire, all three spirits acting in perfect unison, a single spiritual embodiment.
    This is possibly how the trinity started to take shape in thought just as the sinful thought in was nit checked and that one became a Satan.

    It is not three people in one spirit but three spirits in one person of man and the unison is one of purpose and Love not spiritual body…

    'Love unites and  the Spirit of God is 'Love',

    Having 'Love' you have 'Life' and having 'Life' you have creation of 'life from life, in love, with love'


    JA: That is a very good post. Deep truth yet bottom line unites all. Unity is necessary. Very good. Thank you, TK

    #199634
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi SF,
    The Spirit is of God and is one.
    The Spirit was given to Jesus=the Spirit of Christ
    The Spirit proceeds from God and we can reach the heart of God and be one in that Spirit.[Jn15, 1cor2. Jn17]

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