John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,121 through 25,140 (of 25,995 total)
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  • #945558
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    In the biginning, thé Son of God named “The Word” was WITH God AND God.

    He was named “the Word”( of God) because he was GOD AND By thé SPIRIT OF God….

    And When HE “THE WORD”

    WAS MADE FLESH,

    IT REMAINS THE WORD OF GOD BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD BY FAITH IN THE HOLY FATHER WICH IS IN HEAVEN.

    🙏

     

    #945570
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Answer Gene, please:

    CAN A NORMAL HUMAN BEING EXIST IN THIS WORLD WITHOUT

    THE SEXUAL REPRODUCTIVE ACT BETWEEN

    THE SPERM OF THE MAN AND THE OVUM OF THE  WOMAN,

    FROM CAIN ONWARD?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    Carmel here is your answer,  

    YES a normal human being can exist without sin, 
     

    Gene,

    YOU DIDN’T ANSWER MY QUESTION THUS:

    READ AGAIN MY QUESTION AND ANSWER PLEASE:

    CAN A NORMAL HUMAN BEING EXIST IN THIS WORLD WITHOUT
    THE SEXUAL REPRODUCTIVE ACT BETWEEN
    THE SPERM OF THE MAN AND THE OVUM OF THE  WOMAN,
    FROM CAIN ONWARD?
    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    You: Jesus is the perfect example of that, proving,  

    “with God “all” things are possible”.

    Gene, YOU ARE COMPLETELY LOST AND DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, AND IT’S A PROOF THAT YOUR MATURITY WHEN IT COMES TO 

    THE GOD YOU BELIEVE IN, AND HIS SPIRITUAL TASKS ARE MERE:

    CHILDISH!WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    YOUR behavior is immature, selfish, and lacking in RESPONSIBILITY. It is ALWAYS characterized by an inability to control YOUR  emotions, a tendency to throw tantrums, and YOU focus on immediate gratification without considering the

    CONSEQUENCES.

     

    NOW READ AGAIN YOUR OWN WORDS:

    You: JESUS is the perfect example of that, proving,  

    “with GOD“ all” things are possible”.

    ME: THERE YOU ARE Gene, YOU YOURSELF JUST ADMITTED THAT 

    JESUS IS GOD!

    IF JESUS, ACCORDING TO YOU,

    IS THE PERFECT EXAMPLE,

    AND ONLY GOD, JESUS, CAN ACHIEVE THE

    IMPOSSIBLE.

    I HONESTLY WISH THAT YOU DONT THROW

    more tantrums!

      You, According to Jesus,

    but then I know you truly don’t believe what Jesus said>

     Jesus never thought himself to be good ,

    he attributed “all” goodness to “One” God, YHVH,

     the “ONLY” TRUE GOD”. according to “Jesus” that is.

    LET’S START WITH YOUR LAST IMMATURE, SENTENCE!

    NO GENE JESUS NEVER SAID THAT AT ALL!

    PRODUCE THE COMPLETE SCRIPTURE PLEASE, NOT JUST THE WORDS TO QUENCH YOUR THIRST WITH!

    THEN I WILL MAKE THINGS CLEAR FOR YOU TO MAKE YOU AT LEAST

    CONSIDER THE TRUTH THAT JESUS SAID!

    I AM WAITING!

    NOW TO THE OTHER NONCENCE!

    You: Jesus never thought himself to be good ,

    he attributed “all” goodness to “One” God, YHVH,

    NO GENE, JESUS NEVER ATTRIBUTED ALL GOODNESS TO ONE GOD,

    HE NEVER SAID YOUR TWISTED SCRIPTURE, THE FACT THAT YOU ARE NEVER READY TO PRODUCE THE GENUINE VERSES!

    Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him,

    Why callest thou me good?

    None is good but one, that is God.

    Luke18:19 19And Jesus said to him: Why dost thou call me good?

    None is good but God

    alone. 

    Gene I will tackle the above scripture in the next post, and I will repeat again and show how your MATURITY IS MERE CHILDISH WHEN IT COMES TO GOD AND JESUS TASKS!

    JUST ANSWER PLEASE:

    DO YOU ACCEPT THE FACT THAT JESUS WAS NOT JUST REFERRING TO GOD ALMIGHTY WHEN HE SAID THAT

    Mark: ….None is good but one,

    that is God.

     

    Luke:…None is good but

    God alone. 

     

    ANSWER PLEASE:

    NOW DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD ALMIGHTY IS SIMPLY GOOD?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #945571
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……No neither could Jesus either,  who said…..>”I am the Root and OFFSPRING OF DAVID” .  SO tell us how that happens without sexually transmitted “DNA”.  Scripture tell us clearly that Jesus was a descendant of King David,  God himself told David that he would take a seed from his sons and make him his own Son. Also the Apostle Paul tells that Jesus came from the loins of king David.  Acts 2:30…….> Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the “FRUIT OF HIS (King David’s) LOINS”, “ACCORDING TO THE FLESH”, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne”. Now if God took him from the loins of David,  “according to the flesh”, then Jesus being “flesh” had the same kind of DNA in him we all have in us>  Tell me Carmel, what part of that you are unable to understand? 

    Jesus’  human  existence was not one ounce any different than we are, until he was filled with the Spirit of God after he was Baptized at the Jordan river. The he became an “anointed” human being , just like we can also be.

    Carmel your false teachings about Jesus and his preexistence , does not hold up in the Bible scriptures we all have.

    peace and love to you and yours……..gene

    #945572
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    I believe in the image of the Son according to direct scripture.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the NEW BIRTH when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Mark 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: 40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

    1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    Ephesians 1: 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and HAVING RECEIVED OF THE FATHER THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

    John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.

    John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about…15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    Berean, believing in Jesus Christ is believing that God came to dwell in him and then sent him to do God’s works and be a savior of the world. Jesus was born of the Spirit and was a Son being led by that Spirit. The Spirit in him was bearing witness to his spirit that he was a Son of God, this is what Jesus directly is teaching in the book of John. The people beheld his glory by the works he did through God’s Spirit aboding in him. They beheld the glory of the ONLY man who had been begotten of God’s Spirit not by measure filled with power, filled with grace and truth. 

    The image of the Son, is he whom YHVH raised from the dead and gave the PROMISED Spirit to, made into a firstborn of many brethren.

    The image of the Son, is he who had shed his blood and died but then was raised becoming the firstborn overall of the NEW BIRTH overall of a New Creation. 

    2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

    Ephesians 5:9 For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth. 

    The image of the Son, is he who was raised given the PROMISED Spirit, where God’s Spirit is ALL IN him and he is the firstfruits of the Spirit being the image of God, all goodness, righteousness and truth.

    #945573
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. (Heb.13:8)

    He was the image of the invisible God and the reflection of his glory 1)yesterday (eternity past),  when He was with God in heaven,

    2)when He was on earth “in the flesh”

    3)and for eternity.
    Amen!
    🙏

    #945589
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel……No neither could Jesus either,  

    who said…..>”I am the Root and OFFSPRING OF DAVID” .

     SO tell us how that happens without sexually transmitted “DNA”.

    Gene, AGAIN, AS I TOLD YOU IN MY LAST POST,

    YOU PRODUCED A PIECE OF SCRIPTURE AND IT ONLY PROVES THAT

    WHEN IT COMES TO

    THE GOD YOU BELIEVE IN, AND HIS SPIRITUAL TASKS, YOUR MATURITY ARE MERE:

    CHILDISH!  WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    Reading the above DECLARATION, CLEARLY CONFIRMS that  sexually transmitted “DNA”

    IS NOT CAPABLE OF PRODUCING A BEING, 

    BOTH THE ROOT AND THE OFFSPRING OF  ONE AND THE SAME BEING, THROUGH ONE AND THE SAME SEXUAL ACT! 

    TO BE CLEAR, YOU AS A BEING, WHEN YOU WERE BORN  THROUGH THE SEXUAL ACT BY YOUR FATHER, ARE ONLY THE OFFSPRING OF YOUR FATHER, BUT  NOT ALSO THE ROOT OF YOUR FATHER  THROUGH THAT SAME PARTICULAR SEXUAL ACT!

    THUS JESUS  CONFIRMS THAT

    HE IS THE ONLY UNIQUE GODMAN BY THAT PARTICULAR DECLARATION!

    You:  Tell me Carmel, what part of that you are unable to understand? 

    Gene, I’M AFRAID, IT IS YOU THAT HAVE TO TELL ME:

    what part of that you yourself produced and are unable to understand!!!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945591
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    I believe in the image of the Son according to direct scripture.

    Scripture:

    Colossians 1:15Who is the image of the invisible God,

    Jodi, there are two kinds of images of God, 

    ONE GOD IS AN INVISIBLE SPIRIT, UNKNOWN, MYSTERIOUS, AND ONLY ABIDES IN HEAVEN. Read hereunder:

    Matthew 16:17……because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee,

    but my Father who is in heaven. 

    John 4:24 God is a spirit;……

    ALSO, NO MAN EVER SEEN THIS GOD!

    John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time:

    the only begotten Son WHO IS in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    NO MAN KNOWS THE SHAPE OF THIS GOD!

    John 5:37 And the Father himself who hath sent me, hath given testimony of me: neither have you heard his voice at any time,

    nor seen his shape. 

    NOW THE NAME OF THIS GOD IS ABOVE ALL NAMES!

    YAHWEH

    NOW THE OTHER GOD IS UNIQUE, SPIRIT,  PHYSICAL, TANGIBLE, SUPREME, REIGNS OVER ALL, AND HE ABIDES IN HEAVEN, ON EARTH AND UNDER EARTH! ATTENTION Jodi and Gene, AND HIS NAME IS ALSO ABOVE ALL NAMES

    YAHWEH

    Philippians 1:For which cause God also hath exalted him,

    and hath given him a name which is above all names: 

    10That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: 11And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

    I’m afraid YOU and Gene must BOW YOUR KNEES AND CONFESS THAT JESUS IS GOD! Read:

    John 20:28 Thomas answered, and said to him: 

     

    My Lord, and my God. 

    29Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me,

    Thomas, thou hast believed: 

    Jodi, what did Thomas believe?

    Luke 24:39 See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle, and see:

    for a spirit hath not flesh and bones,

    as you see me to have.

    Jodi, a spirit has no flesh and bones like Jesus has! 

    Now man was created in the image and likeness of God, according to you, which of the above-mentioned Gods

    MAN WAS CREATED?

    in the image of the INVISIBLE, SPIRIT,  UNKNOWN, MYSTERIOUS GOD AND ONLY ABIDES IN HEAVEN? OR

    IN THE IMAGE OF THE UNIQUE, SPIRIT,  PHYSICAL, TANGIBLE, SUPREME, GODMAN, WHO REIGNS OVER ALL, AND HE ABIDES IN HEAVEN, ON EARTH AND UNDER EARTH?

    Colossians 1:15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him.

    17 And he is before all,

    and by him all things consist.

    18And he is the head of the body, the church,

    who is the beginning,

    the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy: 19Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father,

    that all fullness should dwell;

    20And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven.

    all fullness should dwell;

    Even God almighty! all in all!

    JESUS CHRIST GODMAN

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945593
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……Root is the family line, which in Jesus’ and David’s case was “Jesse” , just as scriptures says,  Isa 11:10……. “And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek, and his rest shall be glorious.
    Rom 15:12…….” And again, Esaias says, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust”.
    King David is a son and offspring  of Jesse, and of that “root line” came Jesus,   being the “offspring”  of king David.   

    So in that sense Jesus is just what he said….. “I am, the root and offspring of David” . The word “OF” means “FROM”,  in the English language.  But you false teachers change all the scriptures to fit your false narratives, don’t you?

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

    #945594
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. (Heb.13:8)

    He was the image of the invisible God and the reflection of his glory 1)yesterday (eternity past), when He was with God in heaven,

    2)when He was on earth “in the flesh”

    3)and for eternity.

    ME:

    Your interpretation, 1. you ignore the surrounding scriptures that give you the direct context to what Paul is saying. 2. you redefine a word so the passage will fit your doctrine.

    Your doctrine, 1. contradicts a huge host of scriptures provided throughout the bible. 2. It changes the image of Christ and the Gospel itself into an absolute lie.

    Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. 8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. 

    A bit uncanny that you are pulling a verse from it’s surrounding context and changing a definition to a word in order to support a strange doctrine, as Paul’s whole point is to warn against being carried away by strange doctrines that change the true image of Christ.  Jesus Christ does not change, he is the same yesterday, today and forever ACCORDING TO the word of God that was preached by those under God’s authority to speak it. Do not be carried about by strange doctrines that change who Christ is.

    According to you Berean the Spirit of God does not cause change and YHVH’s call to righteousness is of no effect and thus there is no eternal life. There is no resurrection, there were no actual witnesses of the Word of Life being made true in Jesus Christ. 

    Let’s see what else according to your doctrine we then must conclude, Jesus’s words that we would drink from the cup that he drinks of is a lie. Him being made perfect becoming the author of eternal salvation is a lie. When he had abolished in his flesh the enmity he wasn’t actually made into a new man. 

     

     

     

    #945595
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi,  another great post Sis………..945572  everyone here needs to read and really think about it, as well as all our other posts here .   Great job.

    Jodi, that’s exactly what they do here, they change word meanings , and in that way they corrupt our bible texts.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi…….gene

    #945597
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

     

    the topic thread IS:
    WHO IS THE WORD?

    My answer is that he is THE SON OF GOD YESTERDAY, TODAY AND FOR ETERNITY.

    I DO NOT DENY THAT HE WAS MADE PERFECT BY SUFFERING (MORAL AND PHYSICAL) AS EXPRESSED IN HEBREW 2:10

    For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory,👉 to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.👈

    AND ISAIAH 53
    He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grievance: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    [4] Surely he hath borne our grievances, 👈 and carried our sorrows: 👈 yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    [5] But he was wounded for 👉our transgressions, he was bruised for 👉our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace 👉was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

     

    IN THE BIGINNING

    WAS “THE WORD”

    HE WAS WITH THE GOD

    AND WAS GOD

    AND “THE WORD”

    WAS MADE FLESH….

    And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and 👉his name is called The Word of God.👈

    REV.19:13

     

    🙏

    #945599
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel……Root is the family line, which in Jesus’ and David’s case was “Jesse” ,

    Me: Answer Gene:

    WHICH COMES FIRST, 

    THE ROOT or

    THE TREE?

    NO BE AWARE PLEASE:

    When the seed first germinates,

    the roots will grow downward first

    to absorb water and mineral salts from the soil and

    anchor the plant firmly to the ground.

    You: Carmel……Root is the family line, 

    NO Gene, I’M AFRAID!

    ROOT IS NOT THE FAMILY LINE, AS THE ROOTS NEVER ORIGINATE FROM THE TREE,

    THE ROOTS ARE THE ORIGIN, THE SOURCE, AND THE BEGINNING OF A TREE!

    JESUS IS THE ROOT, THE ORIGIN, THE SOURCE, AND

    THE BEGINNING OF DAVID, GOD!

    AND ALSO DAVID’S OFFSPRING!

    Colossians 1:17 And he is before all,

    and by him all things consist. 

    18And he is the head of the body, the church,

    who is the BEGINNING,

    the firstborn from the dead;

    that in all things he may hold the primacy: 

    that in all things He is first:

    John8:25 They said therefore to him:

    Who art thou?

    Jesus said to them:

    The beginning,

    who also speak unto you. 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945600
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    This is in response to post #945224, finally have a moment to respond; sorry you are offended by saying to read the prophets of God. To also say, “sounds to me like once again you are speaking through assumptions that are false.” Explain how reading what the prophets wrote is speaking through false assumptions?

    You must remember, up until a few months ago we were basically on the same page in what we believed. I’m past arguing over religious beliefs and doctrines, it’s time to start investigating what has been said to be truth and verify whether it is or not. It’s past time to verify what the NT says and ask if it aligns with the OT. Contrary to Carmel’s belief, the foundation IS the OT and it’s NOT obsolete as he contends; because without the OT the NT doesn’t/cannot exist. Jesus even said he didn’t come to abolish the law and said heaven and earth would pass away before the law does; it was Paul who said the law ended with Jesus on the cross…are we to believe the “son of God” or the self appointed 13th “apostle”?

    There are times when Paul’s teachings don’t “align” with what Jesus taught; whether it’s one time or fifty times that Paul doesn’t align with Jesus’ teaching, does this make Paul a false teacher AND why don’t we question it? The above example is a huge misalignment and has taken many off course to believe Paul over what Jesus said and in essence, nullifying the Torah and as a whole, the OT. While most christians will not say the OT is void, they will say it isn’t “applicable” today because of Jesus; even after Jesus stated the law isn’t gone and the last time I checked, heaven and earth are still here.

    Additionally, Paul misquotes the OT and I’m not talking paraphrasing; what Paul does is change the OT verses to fit his “gospel” narrative. The sad part, unless you’re verifying what Paul said, you’ll never see it. Here’s a fine example of Paul quoting the OT; tell me how these verses say the same thing:

    I Cor 2:9 (KJV)
    But just as it is written, “Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard, and have not entered into the heart of man, all that God has prepared for those who love him.”

    Isa 64:4 (KJV)
    For from days of old they have not heard or perceived by ear, Nor has the eye seen a God besides You, Who acts in behalf of the one who waits for Him.

    What Paul quotes doesn’t match what Isaiah said; how can this be ignored?!? These types of misquotes are everywhere in Paul’s writings. It seems Paul was able to get away with these types of misquotes because his audience was the non Jew and they didn’t have access to the scrolls and would have to trust that Paul was telling them the truth; after all, he was Jewish and a Pharisee. Fortunately, we do have access to the writing of the OT and can verify what has been said; but we don’t and/or choose to turn a blind eye to it. For me, I can no longer ignored this and is where the investigation begins.

    Can’t forget I Cor 15:3-4; still waiting for where he states “according to scripture” the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind, be buried, and raised up on the third day. The only “scripture” at that time Paul would have referenced would have been the OT (remember he was a Pharisee and a Jew of Jew’s)…sooooo, where is it?!? I’ll save you time, it doesn’t exist. It’s a false statement by Paul; yet, christianity hold Paul in high regards. Personally, not a fan of what Paul has to say anymore; especially when he believes it’s okay to lie to further “God’s Kingdom” (Rom 3:7)…we need to wake up!

    #945601
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Desire Truth,

    Totally understand being busy and not having the time to post. I have had spells with many months not coming on here for that reason and also sometimes honestly it’s because I needed a break.

    YOU: It’s past time to verify what the NT says and ask if it aligns with the OT.

    ME: With you saying the above, it doesn’t make me believe that you actually read the post of mine much at all that you are now responding to. If you had you wouldn’t have at all said what you have just said.

    When you tell me I should go and read the prophets, it’s an assumption on your part that I haven’t read them or even worse, an assumption by you that maybe I have but I treat them with no real value, and nothing could be further from the truth.

    At this point I would appreciate you reading that post again and then getting back to me.

    #945602
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi Disire truth,

    You: it’s time to start investigating what has been said to be truth and verify whether it is or not.

    WHY DON’T YOU START, BUT KEEP IN MIND THAT, YOU ARE NOT READY TO DISCUSS THE NEW TESTAMENT AS TRUTH, MORE SPIRITUAL,  AS MUCH YOU DO THE OT, MORE CARNAL, THE FACT THAT ACCORDING TO PAUL, A GENUINE PHARISEE, IS  MERE DUNG, IN ORDER TO GAIN

    JESUS CHRIST GODMAN!!!

    It’s past time to verify what the NT says and ask if it aligns with the OT.

    FOR A START, THE ABOVE IS YOUR FIRST MISS APPREHENSION!

    THE OT WAS SPIRITUALLY DEAD RIGHT FROM GENESIS 3:7 TILL JESUS’ DEATH!

    Luke 9:60 And Jesus said to him:

    Let the dead bury their dead:….

    Contrary to Carmel’s belief,

    the foundation IS the OT and it’s NOT obsolete as he contends;

    ONLY WHEN YOU SEE THE TRUTH, SPIRITUAL HIDDEN IN THE PHYSICAL!

    Matthew 13:16But blessed are your eyes, because they see, and your ears, because they hear. 17For, amen, I say to you, many prophets and just men have desired to see the things that you see, and have not seen them, and to hear the things that you hear and have not heard them.

    Matthew 13:44 The kingdom of heaven is like unto

    A TREASURE HDDN IN A FIELD. Which a man having found, hid it, and for joy thereof goeth, and

    selleth all that he hath,

    and buyeth that field. 

    because without the OT the NT doesn’t/cannot exist.

    Me: WITHOUT YOUR GREAT-GREAT-GREAT-GRANDFATHER YOU CAN NOT EXIST!

    ANSWER PLEASE:

    WHERE IS YOUR GREAT-GREAT-GREAT- GRAND-FATHER?

    ISN’T HE OBSOLETE, WHILE YOU EXIST, THROUGH HIM?

    ALSO, WOULD YOU LIVE ACCORDING TO WHAT YOUR GREAT-GREAT-GREAT-GRANDFATHER LIVED IN RELATION TO YOUR  EARNINGS AND GENERAL WAY OF LIVING? TO BE CLEAR:

    GOING TO WORK ON A HORSE, TYING YOUR HORSE IN A PARKING AREA, LIGHTING THE OIL LAMP  NEXT TO YOUR MAIN ENTRANCE DOOR, HAVING A BATH IN A WOODEN TUB, AFTER YOU CARRIED BUCKETS OF BOTH COLD AND BOILING WATER, BOILING YOUR CLOTHES, IRONING YOUR CLOTHES WITH A COAL HEATING IRON, AND THE LIST IS ENDLESS.

    NOW IF YOU DECIDE TO LIVE IN THAT MANNER, DO YOU THINK YOU WOULD STILL FINALLY SURVIVE, OR SIMPLY, EITHER WAY OR ANOTHER, DIE AT A CERTAIN MOMENT IN TIME? ESPECIALLY THE FACT THAT YOU WOULD NEVER BE  ALLOWED TO FULFILL YOUR STUBBORNNESS, PLUS, THAT  WITHIN THE SOCIETY  YOU WOULD BE NOT ONLY REJECTED AND ABANDONED BUT ALSO MOST LIKELY  BE LOCKED IN A MAD HOUSE! OR MORE PRECISE:

    SIMPLY IN  AWAY DEAD!

    NOW DO YOU KNOW WHY AND HOW ALL THE ABOVE IS ONLY WORTH IT TO TRY TO FULFILL,

    EVEN IF YOU END UP PHYSICALLY KILLED BY ANY MERE MEMBER OF SOCIETY, AND FORGOTTEN COMPLETELY THAT YOU EVER EXISTED, EVEN AS A PROMINENT MADMAN? 

    Matthew 10:16 Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and simple as doves. 17But beware of men. For they will deliver you up in councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues. 18And you shall be brought before governors, and before kings for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles: 19But when they shall deliver you up, take no thought how or what to speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what to speak. 20For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.21 21The brother also shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the son: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and shall put them to death. 22And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

    I TELL YOU:   BELIEVE IN YOUR UNIQUE REDEEMER AND SAVIOUR;

    JESUS CHRIST AS GODMAN, UNIQUE BOTH ON EARTH AND IN HEAVEN!

    FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT ONLY JESUS THE MAN, THE UNIQUE PHYSICAL CARRIER OF GOD ALMIGHTY IN FLESH AND BLOOD ON EARTH, IN ALL THINGS LIKE YOU, AND IN THE SAME INSTANT NOTHING IN ANY WAY IN RELATION THAT CONCERN YOUR SATANIC ORIGIN, NEVER THE LESS, ATTENTION PLEASE:

    FOR YOUR STUBBORNNESS SAKE, DESPITE THE FACT THAT YOU ARE UNAWARE OF THE TRUTH,  JESUS, YOU STILL REJECTED THE WORLD AND GLORIFIED,

    FOR GOD THE FATHER’S SAKE 

    YOUR REDEEMER JESUS,

    THE FACT THAT HE ALSO, FOR GOD THE FATHER’S SAKE, AS HE WAS NOT IN A POSITION TO ACHIEVE EXCEPT IN/BY JESUS, HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON,

    BELIEVE IT OR NOT, IT’S YOUR PIGEON,

    BORN PHYSICALLY DIRECTLY OF THE FATHER, Well depicted in

    Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said:

    God will provide HIMSELF a victim for an holocaust,

    my son.

    So they went on together.

    THE FATHER AND THE SON ON THE CROSS!

    WAS REJECTED AND IN A WAY KILLED BOTH PHYSICALLY  BY THE SOCIETY OF HIS TIME AND ALSO SPIRITUALLY BY THE SOCIETY OF THE PRESENT TIME OF WHOM YOU ARE A MEMBER!

    A NON BELIEVER! 

    Jesus even said he didn’t come to abolish the law

    THE ABOVE IS A PURE CHERRY-PICKING FROM YOUR SIDE!

    LET’S READ THE WHOLE RELATED VERSES AT LEAST.

    Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    I LEAVE IT FOR YOU THIS TIME TO INTERPRET JESUS’ ABOVE WORDS!

    GO AHEAD AND SHOW US YOUR CARNAL WISDOM, SINCE YOU ARE ANCHORED ON SOMETHING  PURELY OLD, AND FULFILLED.

     

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/

    fulfill
    verb
    ful·​fill fu̇(l)-ˈfil   also  fə(l)-

    variants or fulfil
    fulfilled; fulfilling
    Synonyms of fulfill
    transitive verb

    d: to bring to an end

    and said heaven and earth would pass away before the law does;

    THERE YOU ARE, YOU JUST IGNORED AND CORRUPTED THE PURE TRUE MESSAGE, JUST TO QUENCH YOUR USELESS THIRST!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #945603
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire truth….you brought up several points in you post to Jodi,  each point needs to be addressed  individually. You said, “Jesus said he didn’t come to abolish the law and said heaven and earth would pass away before the law does; it was Paul who said the law ended with Jesus on the cross…are we to believe the “son of God” or the self appointed 13th “apostle”?

    FIRST OF ALL, Jesus was not talking about the “law” in the sense PAUL was, and you misquoted what he was saying,  Jesus said……“for “All” the prophets and the Law “prophesied “UNTIL” John”.   Jesus was talking about  what was written in the, “BOOKS”,  of the law and the prophets.  HE was not talking about the law in relationship to the “Ten Commandments” , as you falsely assume he was. Jesus fulfilled all that was written about him in the books of the law and prophets, that is what he was talking about only.   

    PAUL ON THE OTHE HAND, dealt specifically about the word “law” and how it was applied to the Ten Commandments,  showing us that by the “way law works”, (forced compliance) no flesh could ever be justified before God”.   Another words by forcing a person to obey the commandments of God,  by the way law works, could never make a person right in their hearts before God.  We must all be recreated new by the Power of God , by him changing our hearts and writing his law in our hearts, causing us to obey his commandments. You or anyone else can never aspire  to that by the way “law” works , therefore Paul says, ….> by the “WORKS” of Law, no flesh “can be” , justified before God, and he is absolutely right. 

    Another error of yours was to say Paul was Jewish, He was not a Jew, just as he said he wasn’t , he was a Benjaminite, of the tribe of Benjamin, “An Hebrew of the Hebrews”.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………gene

     

    #945609
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel……Root is the family line,

    Me: No Gene, I am not repeating what I said in my last post to you, I am simply going to 

    emphasize the truth, since you remained SILENT.

    WHICH ONLY PROVES THAT YOU SIMPLY PRODUCED PURE LIES!

    YOU: which in Jesus’ and David’s case was “Jesse” ,

    THUS, THE ROOT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LINE, FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT AS THE ROOT IS THE SOURCE, THE ORIGIN, AND THE BEGINNING OF THE TREE, THE LINE OF JESSE, IN OUR CASE, AND ONLY JESUS PRE-EXISTED AS A SPIRIT, THE GENUINE SEED OF GOD, “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, THE SON OF MAN, Matthew 13:37,

    IS THE UNIQUE GENUINE DIVINE ROOT, THE SOURCE, THE ORIGIN AND THE BEGINNING, John 8:25, OF JESSE’S TREE, THE LINE FROM WHOM  DAVID, ALSO GOD ALL-KNOWING, JESUS, PRE-EXISTED AS A SPIRIT IN DAVID’S HEART, Psalm 18, 139:13,14, Acts 13:22, AND THROUGH DAVID CAME JESUS. 

    just as scriptures says,  Isa 11:10…….

    “And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse,

    Me: YES Gene, but the ROOT of Jesse is JESUS, “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE SON OF MAN, PRE-EXISTED AS A SPIRIT IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN HIS PRIMACY IN THIS CASE

    THE BEGINNING AND THE FIRST OF Jesse, JESUS’ OWN LINE!

    which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek,

    and his rest shall be glorious.

    GODMAN!

    Whether you believe it or not, IT’S YOUR PIDEON!

    Rom 15:12…….” And again, Esaias says,

    There shall be a root of Jesse,

    and he shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust”. King David is a son and offspring  of Jesse, and of that

    “root line”

    DEFINE THE ABOVE TERM THROUGH A DICTIONARY PLEASE!

    TILL THEN IT IS PROOF THAT IT’S ONLY

    YOUR CORRUPTED MENTALITY  TERM I’M AFRAID!

    came Jesus,   being the “offspring”  of king David.   

    WHO SAID THAT HE WAS NOT!

    THE FACT IS THAT JESUS,

    ONLY JESUS

     ALSO IS THE ROOT, THE SOURCE, THE ORIGIN, AND THE BEGINNING OF BOTH JESSE AND DAVID, THE CREATOR!

    GOD!

    NOW JUST TO KEEP ON HAMMERING YOU FOR THE SAKE OF

    TRUTH! JESUS!

    READ PLEASE!

    https://biblicalmissiology.org/blog/2022/09/07/the-root-and-the-shoot/

     

    The phrases “Root of Jesse” and “Root of David” in Scripture are often misunderstood to refer to the Messiah as a descendant of David and his father Jesse. However, a closer look reveals that the term “root” in Scripture, when used in a genealogical or chronological context, refers to ancestors, predecessors, origin, source, or cause, rather than descendants, successors, or result. While Scripture is quite clear that the Messiah certainly is the “Shoot,” the “Branch,” the “Offspring,” or the “Son” of David and Jesse (all terms for a descendant), the image of the Messiah as the “Root” points us to the contrasting, even paradoxical, truth that the Messiah is not only descended from David and Jesse, but is also their very origin and source—namely, God Himself. Misunderstanding on this point has led to widespread mistranslation of the phrases “Root of Jesse” and “Root of David.”

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945610
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel I did read it……”. While Scripture is quite clear that the Messiah certainly is the “Shoot,” the “Branch,” the “Offspring,” or the “Son” of David and Jesse (all terms for a descendant”,

    That is the only part of what you wrote that is correct, the rest is  pure  garbage
    SATAN IS VERY GOOD AT MIXING THE TRUTH WITH LIES,  something you are very good at also,  I noticed.   

    You say you believe Jesus, but are always changing what he says to meet you so-called, “spiritual views”,  that’s also is “pure garbage” . I’ll take the words of Jesus to mean just what he said.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene 

     

    #945611
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You:….the rest is  pure  garbage

    Me: UNLESS YOU ARE SPECIFIC,

    WHAT YOU SAID IS PURE GARBAGE!

    READ HEREUNDER AGAIN PLEASE:

     You: King David is a son and offspring  of Jesse, and of that

    “root line”

    DEFINE THE ABOVE TERM THROUGH A DICTIONARY PLEASE!

    TILL THEN IT IS A PROOF THAT IT’S ONLY

    YOUR GARBAGE AND CORRUPTED MENTALITY  TERM I’M AFRAID!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #945612
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel………Read the part of your own post I posted back to you .  As I said,  all the rest is pure garbage.  Anyone with any common sense knows what Jesus meet when he said ……> “I am the root and “OFFSPRING”  “OF” or  (from) David”> only an idiot can’t figure that out, it doesn’t take some “mysterious religious” BS, like you give us to understand it.

    Like I said, you either believe what God the Father said,  and Jesus or not, in you case you don’t believe either of them. You have to change nearly all our scriptures to fit your Satanic influenced deceptions doctrines.

    Repent and start over Carmel.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

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