John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,861 through 24,880 (of 25,997 total)
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  • #945014
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: “Jesus’ “life”, was poured out “by God the Fathers Will”, to demonstrate, I say “DEMONSTRATE”, to us all, what kind of “life”, it takes to please God.”

    Me: Explain what kind of “life” did Jesus demonstrate we are to live that is pleasing to God? If it’s just obedience, that’s nothing new – that’s OT. By obeying God’s commands one was considered righteous. Explain why Jesus’ particular “obedience” created a specific model to follow and what is this “model”?

    Your explanation of what Jesus said concerning Matt 26:28 is just that, your explanation. You spiritualized Jesus’s words to justify your interpretation of what you believe it means. This method of understanding is extremely dangerous; anyone can interpret anything, any way they wish, and it becomes their truth. Get enough people to believe the same and now there’s a new doctrine. Which is why churches fight and eventually split and why there are over 30,000 different religion in the world today. If we must continually exegesis the words written, the words are empty and mean nothing and our interpretation of those words are the only true meaning. To me what the words say takes precedence over any “spiritual” understand read into them.

    #945015
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Additionally,

    You still haven’t explained why I need Jesus when God said to repent, turn, and you sin is remembered no more. When did God add now having to go “through HIS son” to be forgiven? You also haven’t addressed any question from post #944944

    Have another verse(s) for you to explain Matt 10:23 “And whenever they persecute you in this town, flee to another, for truly I say to you, you will never finish going through the towns of Israel until the Son of Man comes.” Did Jesus prophesy he would return before the disciples could finish spreading Jesus’ “good news” throughout Israel?

    Here’s another that parallels the same idea; again spoken by Jesus. Matt 16:28 “Truly I say to you, that there are some of those standing here who will never experience death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Again, Jesus is speaking to his disciples and prophesying that some of those he is speaking to will not die before he returns.

    Either Jesus has already returned OR maybe Jesus wasn’t the Messiah. This brings me to Deut 18:22 “Whenever what the prophet spoke in the name of Yahweh, the thing does not take place and does not come about, that is the thing that Yahweh has not spoken to him. Presumptuously the prophet spoke it; you shall not fear that prophet.”

    Just reading words…who’s Jesus really?

    #945017
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth…….What idea?    Had you understood,  that Jesus wasn’t talking about just the dying of your flesh,  but the “second death”, the lose of your complete  Soul”.
    So indeed, there were some people who would not taste “true death”, standing there until true judgement takes place in the kingdom  .  Jesus is the man God has chosen to judge mankind.  Remember?……> acts 17:31…… Because he (God) has appointed a day, in which he, God), will judge the world in rightness by the “MAN” , whom he has ordained ; whereof he (God) has given assurance unto all men, in that he (God) raised him from the dead”.

    Desire Truth……Why are you continually attacking Jesus for? ,  Have you fallen from     “GRACE”?, are you now become an enemy of his?, are you ready to accept the consequences of that choice? 

    Peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………..gene

     

    #945018
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    You: who’s Jesus really?

    Me: Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. (Matthew 16:16)

    #945020
    Nick
    Participant

    Yes Danny,

    The anointed man who died and was raised back to life, like Jonah.

    Like it or lump it folks it is what we must believe.

     

    #945021
    Berean
    Participant

    This man IS ALSO named “THE WORD OF GOD.” (Rev.19:13)

    IN THE BIGINNING HE WAS WITH GOD, AND WAS GOD.

    … AND was MADE flesh.

    🙏

    #945022
    Nick
    Participant

    “So, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day, testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place; that the Christ was to suffer, and that by the reason of his resurrection from the dead he would be the first to proclaim light, both to the Jewish people and to the gentiles”

    While Paul was saying this in his defence, Festus said in a loud voice,

    “ Paul, you are out of your mind! Your great learning is driving you mad”

    but Paul said,

    ”I am not out of my mind most excellent Festus, but I utter words of sober truth. For the king knows about these matters, and I speak to him also with confidence, since I am persuaded that none of these things escape his notice, for this has not been done in a corner. King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do”

    Agrippa replied to Paul,

    ”In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian”

    And Paul said,

    ”I would wish to God, that whether in a short or a long time, not only you , but also all who hear me this day, might become such as I am, except for these chains.”

    Acts 26.22f

    Paul at work .

    #945023
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    If you were reborn from above you would grasp what is Spiritual, not literal.

    #945024
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    First verse, Jesus explicitly stated to those he was speaking to would never finish going through the towns of Israel before he returned. What are we to make of Jesus’ statement and why no response to this verse? What Jesus stated is a little hard to take in considering at the end of the book of Matthew Jesus says to them to go into all the world. At one point Jesus tells them he will be back before they can tell all of Israel and then he tells them to go into all world because he won’t be back that soon after all. Do you seriously not see it?

    Second verse, as Jesus is speaking to those standing in front of him, he tells them there are some who will never experience death until he returns and this is the verse you jump on and extrapolate Jesus is speaking of a “second death.” How and where did you get that from Jesus’ statement?

    I’m not attacking Jesus, I’m reading his words and his words don’t align. A misalignment you are unable to explain, but will blindly accept and follow. “Fallen from grace”!??! Does grace originate with Jesus or God? Find in the OT where God says I must believe in a “Messiah” for salvation. What consequences would I suffer when I place God before me. I finally started seeing it’s God and God alone and it’s not God plus one that christianity pushes; it’s more like Jesus plus one and take God out as needed.

    Gene, you aren’t explaining why I would need Jesus or have to go through Jesus to get to God.

    #945025
    Berean
    Participant

     

    If you were reborn from above you would grasp what is Spiritual, not literal.

    Me

    Indeed, God showed me the truth, and I praise him for it.
    I don’t believe your version of John 1.
    Paul confirms John
    For by him were created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and through him all things consist.

    🙏

    #945026
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Why why why?

    Because until you are reborn from above you cannot see the kingdom.

    #945027
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: Berean, Jesus preaches of his coming glory, teaching directly that it is glory unto the Son of Man and preaching ALSO that it was prepared since the creation of the world. 

    Just prior to his death we are not to believe he was asking God for the very glory he preached of? Absurd!!

    Me: Let’s read the scripture:

    Matthew 25:31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty.

    32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

    34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand:

    Come, ye blessed of my Father,

    possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

    WHERE JESUS AS A SPIRIT, WAS SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD.Rev.13:8,

    Genesis 1:2 And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep;

    and the spirit of God moved over the waters.

    John 6:19 When they had rowed therefore about five and twenty or thirty furlongs,

    they see Jesus walking upon the sea,

    and drawing nigh to the ship, and they were afraid. 

    Now, Jodi read again what Matthew 25:34 clearly says hereunder:

    POSSESS YOU THE KINGDOM 

    PREPARED FOR YOU FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

     

    The above declaration is a clear reference to the kingdom of the Son,

    not to Jesus’ glory!

    Jesus’ glory is eternal with God, the only embodiment, image, and shape of God!

    While humanity was not yet in existence.

    Now to

    John 17:5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.

    Notice, Jesus commenced this verse and said;

    And now,…. 

    Why did Jesus commence this verse in that manner?

    John1:30 This is he, of whom I said: After me there cometh a man, who is preferred before me:

    because he was before me. 

    31And I knew him not,…

    HE WAS BEFORE ME.

    AND I KNEW HIM NOT!

    JESUS, AS THE ONLY PHYSICAL EMBODIMENT OF GOD, WAS UNKNOWN TO THE HEAVENLY HOSTS WHILE THEY WERE ON THEIR PROBATION PERIOD, IN THE SAME WAY, ADAM AND EVE WERE WHILE IN THE GARDEN, FOR THE SAKE OF THEIR LOYALTY TO GOD AND THEIR FREE WILL DURING THE CREATION OF THE UNIVERSE. Genesis 1:1, THE REBELLION OCCURRED, AND GOD THREW LUCIFER AND ALL THE REBELLIOUS ANGELS ON THIS PLANET  Genesis 1:2 ORIGINALLY LUCFER’S AND COMMENCED THE CREATION OF THIS WORLD Genesis 1:3 BETWEEN GOD AND EVIL, LIGHT AND DARKNESS, DAY AND NIGHT AND SO ON, IN ORDER BOTH TO ESTABLISH A NEW WAY FOR THEM TO RETURN TO GOD AS CHILDREN OF GOD, THE HIGHEST STATE POSSIBLE AND ALSO AS THE ONLY PHYSICAL EMBODIMENT AND IMAGE OF GOD, THE SON OF MAN,  TO REVEAL HIMSELF AS A HUMAN ON EARTH FOR THE SAKE OF GOD THE  FATHER AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD AS JESUS CHRIST! Confirmed by John in

    John 17:3Now this is eternal life:

    That they may know thee,

    the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    4I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    EVEN SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD.Rev.13:8

    5And now glorify thou me, O Father,

    with thyself,

    with the glory which I had, before the world was,

    with thee.

    John 1:30 This is he, of whom I said: After me there cometh a man,

    who is preferred before me:

    because he was before me. 

    31 And I knew him not:

    but that he may be made manifest in Israel,

    therefore am I come baptizing with water. 

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945028
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel

    In reference to post #944977, one word is all you need and that is “zera”; I have been over this word before and is a reference to descendants, one who is procreated, something produced after it’s own kind. This is the term used in the OT to reference who the Messiah will be, the seed of David. In other words in the lineage of David. If Jesus was conceived of the spirit, explain exactly how he would be in the “line of David” when Jesus, as we are told, was conceived of the spirit. What you responded with is nonsense, I have never accepted Catholicism as truth since it was the religion spawned from the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. Stop spiritualizing everything you read, because you will never understand the true and actual meaning of what has been written.

    #945029
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Nick,

    Why, why, why indeed; if only you could answer a question or two verses running away. How about you take a crack at answering what I asked Gene. Won’t hold my breath as you don’t like questions, you just like telling people what they should believe.

    #945030
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Your demand for intellectual satisfaction before belief can only fill your mind with doubt and frustration. In so doing you appoint yourself as your own god and the only source of truth.

    I have no wish to partake in your games of confusion as My God is not a God of confusion but of peace and I accept His wisdom as greater than mine or yours.

    You must be transformed by the renewal of your mind and it starts with faith in God and Yahshua.

    As Yahshua said “Believe in God. Believe also in me”

    #945031
    Nick
    Participant

    Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval.

    By faith we know that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. Heb 11.1f

    And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

    heb 11.6

    faith is vital but understanding a luxury.

     

    #945032
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    All you can offer is your DOUBTS.

    If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God,  Who guivs to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But he must ask in faith without any doubting for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. For that man should expect that he will receive nothing from the Lord, being a double minded man, unstable in all his ways. Jas 1.5f

    you are welcome to them.

     

    #945033
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Nick,

    You: I have no wish to partake in your games of confusion as My God is not a God of confusion…

    Me: Isn’t that precious as you pull out your God card, yet you will believe what you are told is truth without ever verifying what you have been told IS truth. I simply quoted what Jesus said and questioned it; you accuse me of playing games?!?! How obtuse can you be? How can you ignore the words Jesus said, words that where never fulfilled, and say that I am creating myself as a god! How about address the words Jesus spoke and tell me what they mean and if they where actually fulfilled. And you tell me my faith is “shipwrecked”; what’s shipwrecked is christianity, and it’s sinking!

    Then you quote the book of Hebrews, what a joke! A book so corrupt it should be stripped from the NT. Don’t believe me, start comparing the words it quotes from the OT and see if they match!

    #945034
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Nick,

    All I offer are doubts?!? All I have are questions, start answering them!

    Then you say to ask for wisdom, look in the mirror! Funny how those accusing others ignore their own advice. Wisdom is the one thing I ask for daily and God has been opening my eyes to the deception called christianity. God said he is our salvation, not that I have to go through another. God said to repent, turn from your wickedness, and your sin will be remembered no more. God said HE had no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but desired they turn from their wickedness and live. What god do you serve?

    #945035
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Your bitter and sarcastic complaints reveal your weak foundation of doubt.

    Jealous of faith you only want to pull down others to your sad level.

    Not interested dude.

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