John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,661 through 24,680 (of 25,997 total)
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  • #944685
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    You say I was brought up in a church full of lies; which “denomination”, which “church”, which “faith” has it correct? Where exactly should I go to be taught? If you say the spirit leads and teaches, we have a problem because everyone believes something different and all claiming it’s of the “spirit.”

    In John 2:22 the disciples believed the scripture Jesus spoke, what scripture are they remembering? Pull out your study bible to confirm yourself, it’s Ps 16:10 and not a reference Jonah…hmmmm. Continuing with Ps 16:10; one verse that sounds like Jesus, doesn’t make it about Jesus. This Psalm has to be read in it’s entirety and is David speaking of his trust in God and has nothing to do with Jesus. Read verses 9-11 and tell me David wrote anything about Jesus; he’s speaking about himself. Words mean something and mean what they mean; when one starts interpreting them beyond their intended meaning, they can mean whatever you want them too…dangerous. Another verse taken out of context to make it point to Jesus.

    In Matt 12:38-42 the leaders ask for a “sign”, what is this sign they are seeking – more “miracles”? Don’t think is was more miracles as I am sure at this point they has seen and heard of many. Early on in Jesus’ ministry he spoke to the Samaritan woman and told her he was the Messiah; do you think it possible this had circulated back to the religious leaders as word was spreading to who Jesus claimed to be? So did this “sign” they where looking for have to do with his “Messiahship”? Which brings me back to a previous question, who where the Jews looking for concerning the Messiah; what was the Messiah suppose to do?

    The 3 days and 3 nights narrative given in the gospels say Jesus was crucified on the day of preparation (Friday) and rose on the first day of the week (Sunday). The math doesn’t add up, the best one can come up with is 3 days and 2 nights. So Jesus didn’t fulfill what he said was to happen. The Jonah correlation falls flat and the sign disappears. Please also remember, Paul simply says three days and doesn’t include the nights; so what exactly is Paul quoting and from where?

    I would also like to point out Luke 24:46-47 where Jesus says, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.” Reverencing my study bible, there are zero references back to the OT in this passage; Jesus said it, where is it written? Jesus drops the 3 nights, so the parallel to Jonah is gone. Jesus then goes onto say “that repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in his name and is in the same sentence that starts with “Thus it is written.” Whoa, where’s that “it is written” OT reference?

    You will find nowhere in the NT the idea of approaching God directly as in Jonah and HIM forgiving you; it’s always through Jesus. Paul goes out of his way to completely abandoned the idea of God being the one who forgives. What changed from the OT to the NT? If I was able to go directly to God in the OT why do I have to go through another in the NT? How were people “saved” in the OT without Jesus and why wouldn’t it still be the same today?

    #944686
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Isa 42:8 “I am Yahweh; that is my name, and I do not give my glory to another…” Hmmmmm!

    #944687
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    Of course if the religious leaders had killed Jesus is irrelevant to you; however, are you saying the “word of God” is irrelevant or it doesn’t fit your truth. Fact is the Jews were allowed to punish people under their laws and customs; but, to put someone to death, that had to go through the Roman governor. So if the leaders would have stoned Jesus and killed him, they would have been subject to the Roman laws and been put to death themselves.

    I read your “randombiblefacts” link and they don’t use Hebrew, they use Aramaic to justify away what is being said in Ps 110:1; except this would have been written in Hebrew, so all and any understanding MUST be from the Hebraic mindset. The word is still “ladonai” or “ladoni” (¿spelling?) which is simply a title of authority – master or lord. Explain!

    #944688
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    The One who heals through any human vessel, including Jesus Christ, is God.

    ” Men of Israel, listen to these words;  Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and signs and wonders which God performed through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know.. “

    Acts2.22

    wake up.

     

    #944689
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    I’m “cherry picking” nothing, I am reading the words on a page. Everywhere I look I am finding something that pushes me further from this man called Jesus and directly to God. Maybe I should find my “I believe button” and stop verifying what I have been taught.

    Read Mark 4:10-12, After Jesus tells the crowd a parable he tells the disciples they have been given the mystery of the kingdom of God while everyone else gets parables, 12 “so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven.” Is Jesus really saying he is telling them parables so they don’t return to God and be forgiven?!?!?! Is Jesus intentional deceiving the crowd of people by telling them things they aren’t going to understand?!!? Jesus’ disciples had to have the parable explained to them too because they didn’t understand it either. Someone please explain how this is love and compassion and how this isn’t deception.

    Then take a look at John 18:20 “Jesus answered him, ‘I spoke openly to the world. I always taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where the Jews always meet. I said nothing in secret.’” He said nothing in secret, but taught in parables so people couldn’t understand; yet had to explained them to the disciples. Someone help me out!

    You say I cannot throw out the NT, when I read the above explain how I can continue to hold onto it? When I read Matthew’s infancy account of Jesus and he quotes Isa 7:14 as being prophecy fulfillment; but, when I read Isa 7 it has nothing to do with Jesus, it was a sign to King Ahaz. Yet, every Christmas this passage is read and people are blind to the truth of what Isa 7 really says…talk about “cherry picking”!

    The sad part, I can keep going.

    #944690
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    So now you want to be the judge of Jesus Christ?

    Not surprising.

    #944691
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Of course if you judge the son then you judge the God Who spoke and worked through him.

    What is the view like up there?

    Take care not to fall.

    #944693
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Nick,

    Is my understanding of Mark 4:10-12 incorrect? If so, please explain.

    Is my understanding of John 18:20 incorrect? If so, please explain.

    Is my understanding of Isa 7:14 incorrect? If so, please explain.

    Is my understanding of Ps 16:10 incorrect? If so, please explain.

    Is my understanding of Luke 24:46-47 incorrect? If so, please explain.

    Is my understanding of Isa 42:8 incorrect? If so, please explain

     

    You: “if you judge the son then you judge the God Who spoke and worked through him.”

    Me: any supporting scripture for that statement?

    #944695
    Berean
    Participant

    @?ick

    You

    The One who heals through any human vessel, including Jesus Christ, is God.

    ” Men of Israel, listen to these words;  Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and signs and wonders which God performed through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know.. “

    Acts2.22

    Me

    I am not against that AND I Say ALSO THAT JESUS BEFORE HIS INCARNATION WAS GOD.

    And

    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    We need not just part of the truth about Jesus but the whole truth and that is the work of the Holy Spirit in us.

    🙏

    #944696
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    You: Of course if the religious leaders had killed Jesus is irrelevant to you;

    Me: You misunderstood me I’m afraid,

    Read what you said again:

    You: Please explain John 18:31 where the religious leaders say it wasn’t lawful for them to put anyone to death under Roman law. The leaders were going to stone Jesus in one place and in another they remember they can’t?!?! Something doesn’t make sense.

     

    ME: The above has nothing to do with my question, IT IS IRRELEVANT as my question is

    Why did they take up stones to stone him?

    Whether they did or not!

    Now, WEREN’T THEY GOING TO STONE THE PROSTITUTE,

    ONLY JESUS STOPPED THEM, AND

    THEY DID STONE STEPHEN AS WELL DIDN’T THEY?

    THEY COULD KILL NOT JUST ONLY BY STONING! Read hereunder:

    Luke 4:28 And all they in the synagogue, hearing these things, were filled with anger. 29And they rose up and thrust him out of the city; and they brought him to the brow of the hill, whereon their city was built,

    that they might cast him down headlong.

     30 But he passing through the midst of them, went his way.

    Are you in the position to explain, how so many Jews grabbed Jesus so within their control, that they brought him to the brow of the hill,

    and at that moment in time they were going to cast him down headlong.

    HE SIMPLY PASSED THROUGH THE MIDST OF THEM AND WENT HIS WAY.

    Read hereunder now:

    John10:17 Therefore doth the Father love me: because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.

    18 No man taketh it away from me:

    but I lay it down of myself,

    and I have power to lay it down: and I have power to take it up again.

    This commandment have I received of my Father.

     

    Now I will ask you again for the third time in pure clear and simple english:

    Why did they take up stones to stone him?

     

    You: however, are you saying the “word of God” is irrelevant or it doesn’t fit your truth. Fact is the Jews were allowed to punish people under their laws and customs; but, to put someone to death, that had to go through the Roman governor.

    So if the leaders would have stoned Jesus and killed him, they would have been subject to the Roman laws and been put to death themselves.

     

    Me: In view of what I said above 

    it is only according to your mentality! 

     

    You: I read your “randombiblefacts” link and they don’t use Hebrew, they use Aramaic to justify away what is being said in Ps 110:1; Except this would have been written in Hebrew, so all and any understanding MUST be from the Hebraic mindset. 

    Me: SPIRITUALLY DEAD, AND CORRUPTED!

    Just read again this caption from randombiblefacts:

    The reason He did this is that the Pharisees understood from various verses that the Messiah would have the same Name as the Holy One – YHWH.  The long-standing tradition of Messiah sharing the spiritual Name YHWH has been preserved in many ancient Jewish texts, although it is not something that is openly discussed in modern Judaism, due to how closely it aligns with mainstream Christian doctrines.  

     

    The Jews corrupted their scriptures and their interpretation.

    MORE EVIDENT ONCE JESUS ESTABLISHED HIS GOSPEL!

    THE TRUTH OF THE WORD OF GOD!

    ESPECIALLY IN PAUL’S CHRISTOLOGY DIRECTLY BY

    JESUS CHRIST

    THE ONLY TRUE PHYSICAL GODMAN ON EARTH!

     

    John17: 3 Now this is eternal life:

    That they may know thee,

    the only true God, and Jesus Christ,

    whom thou hast sent.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #944697
    Berean
    Participant

    @DT

    Isa 42:8 “I am Yahweh; that is my name, and I do not give my glory to another…” Hmmmmm!

    ME

    [8] I am Yahweh: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    another

    from ”achar’ (309); properly, hinder; generally, next, other, etc.:–(an-)other man, following, next, strange.

    GOD does not want to give his glory to “another god or strange man.
    His begotten Son is not among the strangers and he shares his Glory and HIS NAME.

    🙏

     

    #944698
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    Nick,  “if you judge the son then you judge the God Who spoke and worked through him.”

    You: any supporting scripture for that statement?

    John 5:21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and giveth life:

    so the Son also giveth life to whom he will. 

    Me: Even to Himself!

    22For neither doth the Father judge any man,

    but hath given all judgment to the Son.

    23That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father.

    He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father,

    who hath sent him.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #944699
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Who is the liar but the one who denies Jesus is the Christ. This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. As for you let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 1 Jn 2.22f

    Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 2jn 9 f

    The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God hasgiven concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and the life is in His son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. 1 Jn5.10f

    So Jesus said

    ”When you lift up the son of man , then you will know that I am he, and I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as my Father taught me. And He Who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him… “ Jn 8.20

    I have no wish to debate the words of Jesus Christ, my Lord.

    leave such ignorance to unbelievers.

     

    #944700
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth you said……..”Everywhere I look I am finding something that pushes me further from this man called Jesus and directly to God.”

    Me….But what you don’t you see, is that is exactly what Jesus did also, he turns us to God the Father in every thing he said and did.  His whole life was for that very purpose.  Jesus said the greatest commandment was …>“to love the LORD YOUR GOD WITH “ALL” YOU HEART. “ALL” YOUT  SOUL, AND “ALL” YOUR  MIGHT “  .  Jesus was the greatest example of trusting in God the Father of anyone who ever lived.  That should be obvious to everyone.

    Jesus also said unto them, >not every one has  been given the knowledge of the kingdom of God.  …….> Mark 4:11…> “unto you it has been given to know the “MYSTERY” of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without,  all these thing are done in parables; that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear and not understand; least at any time they be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them”.

    Also we are told, “many are called, but only a few that are chosen”.

    I have told you before and will tell you again, “he who rejects Jesus , has also rejected the one who sent him”.    DT you can’t have God the Father without Jesus,  the one he sent brother.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth…………gene.

     

    #944701
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Unto Jesus there are many glories.

    I see you posted John 12 highlighting verse 41,

    12:41 These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

    What is the glory that Isaiah saw which also aligns with John’s teaching?

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

    Acts 10:36 The Word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 37 That Word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

    John 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now. 11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

    John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

    The glory Isaiah saw was that of a man being elected from among the people by our Creator YHVH, a man he saw receiving God’s Spirit and being sent out to preach God’s word, perform miracles in God’s name and set people at liberty from their sins fulfilling God’s covenant.  

    The Word that was preached, of how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power and then sent him out into the world, was a glory unto a man declared before the world even began. 

     

     

    #944702
    Berean
    Participant

    The glory Isaiah saw was that of a man being elected from among the people by our Creator YHVH, a man he saw receiving God’s Spirit and being sent out to preach God’s word, perform miracles in God’s name and set people at liberty from their sins fulfilling God’s covenant.  

    The Word that was preached, of how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power and then sent him out into the world, was a glory unto a man declared before the world even began. 

     

    Me

    Isaiah had a vision of the Divine Son of God in his glorious manifestation.

    John 12
    These things said Esaias, when he saw 👉his glory, and spake of him.(the divine Son of God)

    Already before the foundation of the world the Son of God shared the glory of God his Father.
    👇
    John 17
    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    🙏

    #944703
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Jodi and Berean,

    Is 6.1

    In the year of king Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted,..

    THE LORD IS GOD IN THE OT.

    Enough said.

     

     

     

    #944705
    Nick
    Participant

    INCARNATION is not a biblical word.

    more catholic theology.

    #944706
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi  Gene,

    You: DT you can’t have God the Father without Jesus,  the one he sent brother.

    Me, Gene, it’s the very first time I read that you admit the above!

    VERY GLAD!

    WHEN IT COMES TO REDEMPTION AND SALVATION:

    NO JESUS NO GOD

    NO GOD NO JESUS

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #944707
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……I have always said that, I fully understand that if you reject Jesus you are rejecting the one who sent him.  But that does not make Jesus equal to God the Father , who he preached about and also  obeyed even unto death,  now does it?

    I do not now or ever have , spoken  against Jesus, in fact I preach exactly what he preached. The hundreds of direct quotations I have given you are from his mouth (not mine).

    peace and love to you and yours Carmel……..gene

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