John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,681 through 24,700 (of 25,997 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #944710
    Nick
    Participant

    Enough fanciful speculations about the Son of God having a personal throne in the heavenlies prior to his conception. Leave it to the lost and confused.

    #944711
    Berean
    Participant

    Enough fanciful speculations about the Son of God having a personal throne in the heavenlies prior to his conception. Leave it to the lost and confused.

    Me

    The Son of God has a personal throne but with God because he conquered:

    To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me 👉in my throne, even as👉 I also overcame, and am set down👉 with my Father in his throne.👈

    Rev.3:21

    …..

    Incarnation=

    was made flesh(John1:14)

    👇

    But made himself of no reputation, and

    1) took upon him the form of a servant, 👉and was made in the likeness of men:👈

    👉And being found in fashion as a man,

    👉2) he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    🙏

    #944712
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    41 These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

    The glory that Isaiah saw is that which he spoke of to which we can read in the book of Isaiah. YHVH even told Isaiah of a glory that He would not give to another and the context of “another” is in regards to “the people” whom YHVH had created when He stretched forth the earth and all that cometh out of it, giving man breath and a spirit to walk therein.

    Jesus has glory in more ways than one and we can read from Isaiah the glories that he saw.

    Let’s first read again what John says,

    John 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

    Jesus was anointed of the Spirit and with power and he manifested that glory through performing miracles, turning water into wine, healing the blind, raising Lazarus from the dead. Isaiah prophesied of this glory, the glory of a man being anointed of the Spirit and with power speaking of it in chapters 11, 42 and 61, to which Jesus himself quoted concerning himself that we read of in Luke 4.

    John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

    Jesus manifested his glory performing miracles, having the glory of one anointed of the Spirit and with power, but some did not believe in him and John speaks to this as prophecy from Isaiah fulfilled, where he quotes Isaiah 53.

    -Isaiah prophesied of Jesus’s glory, the glory of one anointed of the Spirit and with power and John speaks to that glory how it was manifested by the miracles Jesus performed.

    -Isaiah prophesied that people would not believe and John speaks to this fulfillment.

    -Isaiah speaking of this unbelief speaks of him being crucified and him receiving a portion with the great and dividing the spoil with the strong.

    Isaiah 53:11 After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied ; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    Berean, Jesus is a righteous servant as a man who has God’s Spirit living in him.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins…9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    What do we read prior in John 12,

    John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

    Berean, THIS GLORY unto this Son of Man, was God’s WORD even before the world began and Jesus knew of it and he went to the cross believing in it. 

    John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

    Berean, God is glorified in Jesus through God’s Spirit living in him whereby Jesus did God’s work in God’s name and God glorifies Jesus a Son of Man, not a pre-existing god, which was promised (His Word) before the world began.

    Isaiah as well speaks to this glory,

    Isaiah 49: 1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. 2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. 4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. 7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. 8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; 9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places. 10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

    Berean, Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus as God’s servant NOT FROM a pre-existence, but FROM a calling from the womb. This servant’s mouth is made like a sharp sword through God’s Spirit living in him.

    He was formed from the womb to be a servant where he would be called to righteousness and God would hold his hand and keep him to be for a light to both Israel and Gentiles. This man will be glorious in the eyes of the our One True God YHVH as he establishes peace upon the whole earth, being the man ordained of God to judge (Acts 17) in righteousness through God’s Spirit that dwells in him.

    Matthew 16: 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

    God is not returning in God’s glory, a man is returning who has God’s glorious Spirit living in him (the Spirit that is in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and by that Spirit he will judge righteously and give reward where the earth will be at peace, the peoples will not hunger or thirst. Righteousness is according to being born of God, having God’s Seed remain in you and those that are led by that Spirit are thus called the Sons of God. Jesus was indeed the only mortal man begotten of God’s Spirit filled with power, filled with grace and truth where people beheld his glory as he manifested that glory performing miracles and speaking God’s truth. Only one man was chosen from among the people being given the glory to bring  forth salvation a new heaven and earth that is filled with the knowledge of our one true God YHVH. 

    Isaiah saw this glory in this Son of Man and knew it had been declared from the beginning. 

    Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    Your doctrine Berean is just plain awful, it doesn’t add up with the sum of scripture at all.

    Jesus is of the people whom God created.

    Jesus is the man of God’s Word that God declared Himself from the beginning.

    The Son of Man, Jesus, knew well the words of God from the prophet Isaiah and he had faith in them as he went to the cross and we read of him professing that faith in John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me (the Son of Man) with thine own self with the glory which I (the Son of Man) had with (para/OF) thee before the world was.

    Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    God’s word before the world began was that of a Son of Man standing at God’s right hand, a firstborn overall of God’s new heaven and earth. He is the image of the Father and we are promised to be made into the image of the Son, where those that are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God, where God’s Spirit living in us bears witness to our spirit that we are children of God, being heirs of God and joint heirs with our anointed Jesus of Nazareth, who received the Spirit of God according to a promise when he was raised from the dead as a firstborn of many brethren. We are promised that same Spirit wherein we are caused to walk in all of God’s ways. Promised to be born of the Spirit, when the Son of Man returns in the glory of our Father.

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    #944713
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    Isaiah had a vision of the Divine Son of God in his glorious manifestation.

    John 12
    These things said Esaias, when he saw 👉his glory, and spake of him.(the divine Son of God)

    Already before the foundation of the world the Son of God shared the glory of God his Father.
    👇
    John 17
    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    🙏

    #944714
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    The Son of God is not divine.

    The Spirit in him is.

    #944715
    Nick
    Participant

    Remember Berean,

    God is one.

    There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.

    Very basic scriptural truth.

     

    #944716
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You have got yourself into a tricky spot and find your words contradict what is written.

    Stop and reassess your position rather that stubbornly blocking your ears.

    #944717
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You would need to do more to convince me as what you are saying I see is actually against direct scripture.

    John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

    There is no Son going back to glory, there is a Son of Man being glorified to which Stephen saw that Son of Man at God’s right hand in the heavens, where he saw the glory of God and this Son of Man. 

    Berean, truth is not what you say it is, it is what scripture says, the Son of Man should be glorified, the Son of Man in glory in the heavens sitting at God’s right hand, and the Son of Man returning in our Father’s glory. 

    This Son of Man is God’s Son according to scripture. 

    Paul gives us the image of the Son, the image that God predestined others to be made into that he might be a firstborn among many brethren. That image is one who is led by the Spirit of God. 

    1 Chronicles teaches us that God would become a Father unto a son of David and that He would settle him into His House and His kingdom forever. That is a promise unto a man of eternal life.

    How is it that God exactly would become a Father unto a promised son of David and does it have anything to do also with him being able to be settled into God’s kingdom? The anointed man Jesus tells us, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

    Jesus was indeed born of water and of the Spirit and Stephen declared through the Holy Spirit that he saw the Son of Man sitting at God’s right hand in glory having been settled in God’s house in His kingdom just as God had promised unto a son of David and just as Jesus spoke in John 3.

    There is more,

    Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Ephesians 5:9 For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth. 

    John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    Isaiah 42 speaks of a son of Jesse, a Son of David receiving God’s Spirit and being called to righteousness.  Isaiah 11 speaks of this Son of Man receiving God’s Spirit and by such he is a righteous judge. 

    Romans 5: 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many…18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    VERY CLEAR, a man was promised to receive God’s Spirit being called to righteousness, we read that righteousness is to be born of God, we read that the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth and we read that Jesus was filled with that Spirit without measure. We read, ” Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost and I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God. Jesus is declared God’s Son according to him having been born of the Spirit. When God promised that he would be a Father unto a Son of David, such was a promise of begetting him of His Spirit and having that Seed remain in him where he would be obedient, where he would be the one man where through his righteousness caused by being born of  the Spirit, we would receive the free gift. This one man was in fact declared by God from the beginning, why we read that all things that YHVH Himself had created He did so by reason of and for him, this is why we read that this man is he who is before all things and in him all things consist. This man executes YHVH our heavenly Father’s will, he executes Gods purpose for why YHVH had made heaven and earth and all things therein in the first place. 

    this aligns well with,

    45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

    Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    From the beginning, before the world even was, YHVH formed the earth to be inhabited, to be inhabited by the son of David, whom God promised He would be a Father to, whom God promised He would give His Spirit to and settle him into His kingdom, giving him an eternal throne and making him a firstborn overall of the Eternal Creation and that of a firstborn of many brethren. 

     

    #944720
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Nick

    And what do you do with the simple and basic verses that I keep giving

    JOHN 1
    PHIL.2

    JESUS IS OF DIVINE ORIGIN AND HE WAS MADE FLESH (INCARNATION). THIS IS THE TRUTH.

    EVERYTHING ELSE IS A FALSE INTERPRETATION OF THE WORD OF GOD WHICH YOU PROMOTE.

    YOU HAVEN’T PROVE ANYTHING TO ME SO FAR THAT YOU STAND IN THE TRUTH, NEITHER JODI, NOR GENE.
    SO PLEASE REVIEW YOUR POSITION BECAUSE IT IS NOT SUSTAINABLE.

    🙏

    #944721
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You believe you have found contradictions in scripture.?

    Sorry but they do not exist.

    Unspiritual folk misread spiritual words.

    #944725
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: “But what you don’t you see, is that is exactly what Jesus did also, he turns us to God the Father in every thing he said and did. His whole life was for that very purpose.”

    Me: Unfortunately, it’s not what I don’t see; it’s was I do see. If Jesus was an “example” for us and how we are to go to God; why does Jesus say the only way to God is through him?

    You still haven’t explained Mark 4:12 and why Jesus spoke in parables so the people wouldn’t understand, so they wouldn’t return, so they wouldn’t be forgiven. Jesus explicitly said he wasn’t speaking to them plainly so they wouldn’t be forgiven. Explain and justify this! Who is this man called Jesus and what exactly was his intent?

    #944726
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You judge the son of God for perceived unfairness?

    The Son only does what the Father tells him so you judge God by your standards?

    It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God but maybe you don’t Fear Him either?

     

    #944727
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    The Lord Jesus lives in his brothers so men have that access through any who live in him.

    Rebirth into him is possible by water and the Spirit and that enables access to his Father too.

    #944728
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Nick

    You believe you have found contradictions in scripture.?

    Sorry but they do not exist.

    Unspiritual folk misread spiritual words.

     

    Me

    There is no contradiction in THE WORD OF GOD, BUT IGNORANT PEOPLE WHO PERSIST NOT TO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS ASKED THEM….THEY BELIEVE THEMSELVES SPIRITUAL, HAVING THE SPIRIT….BUT IS THIS REALLY THE CASE?

    🙏

    #944729
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Scripture is spiritual and needs the Spirit to grasp it.

    Literalism falls short and logic is an inappropriate tool to use.

     

    #944730
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Perhaps try your tools of understanding to this scripture.

    “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood you will not have life in you”

     

    #944744
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Dt you said …Me: Unfortunately, it’s not what I don’t see; it’s was I do see. If Jesus was an “example” for us and how we are to go to God; why does Jesus say the only way to God is through him?

    Because his relationship with God the Father is the exact same “way” we must approach and live with the God the Father.  He showed us all  “HOW” to have the right relationship with the Father, and it is the exact same as his is and was, a complete “Faith” And  ” LOVE”, Based relationship,  even to the point of death if required . 

    DT, has your “new” view points,  now turned you against Jesus himself brother?
    Very sorry to see that happening to you,  We simply can not enter into life eternal without doing it the exact same way Jesus and his life has shown us.

    peace and love to you and your Desire Truth……….gene

    #944746
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi

    When men are born on this earth, are they called saints?

    The answer is no.

    They can become one if they take the holy path,

    BUT FOR JESUS, the angel said to Mary:

    The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also👉 that holy thing 👈which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
    Jesus is not someone who needed God’s salvation like us BECAUSE HE IS GOD’S SALVATION… CERTAINLY HE HAD TO FIGHT BY FAITH AND DEFEAT THE ENEMY.

    When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceedingly great joy.
    [11] And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and 👉worshipped him:👈 and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

    Are we wordhiped at birth?

    Is Jesus still just an ordinary man?

    #944747
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Indeed the angels knew the future role of the man who was to become the anointed one. Born of woman and born under the law the arrival of Jesus was part of the plan. It was exciting for them to see that plan of God being fulfilled.

    We cannot follow God or a god.

    We can follow a man into his death and resurrection and into the rest God arranged. So much easier for us than for our Master.

    #944748
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Men cannot save themselves.

    The way of safety is by rebirth into the Son.

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