John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,601 through 24,620 (of 25,997 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #944560
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    “Divine son” makes this man his own God?

    #944561
    Berean
    Participant

     

    God is two or more PERSONS.?

    My how far from Scripture you have wandered.

    Me

    God is ONE PERSON AND HE IS THE FATHER OF JESUS CHRIST.

    .

    1Cor.8:6

    But to us there is but one 👉God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him👈; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    🙏

     

    #944562
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    And someone can be a DIVINE PERSON and not be a god?

    #944563
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Where in Scripture is God defined as a PERSON?

    #944564
    Nick
    Participant

    Flesh contributes nothing Berean.

    #944565
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    I could go on explaining myself until I am blue in the face; but, until you stop and listen, you will never hear. I could spend the next 20 minutes writing words; but, until you stop and look, you will never see. When you start verifying what you have been told is truth, then you will understand where I currently am.

    You say it’s sad I have let the “blind Jews” trip me up; except, it wasn’t them who started me down my current path, it was this website. People’s responses caused me to begin a deeper study and what I discovered is nothing short of amazing; God loves me because HE created me and I don’t need a middleman to go to HIM. Just like the Ninevites in Jonah who repented of there wickedness and God forgave them, how are we any different?

    If my focus has shifted from the man Jesus to our Heavenly Father, what exactly do I need to repent of?

    #944566
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    A sinless man among us?

    Repent and be baptised for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the Holy Spirit does not apply to him apparently.

    Wow

    #944568
    Nick
    Participant

    Bad luck DT,

    Jesus only came for sinners.

    #944569
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    “ No one can come to the Father except through me”

    says Jesus Christ.

    But you have found a “ come as you are party” in scripture.

    Thar will be popular!

    #944570
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Where in Scripture is God defined as a PERSON?

    Hebrews1:3

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of👉 his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    🙏

    #944571
    Nick
    Participant

    What should you repent of DT?

    If you agree with God that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God then it is just a case of admitting that and letting Him deal with it.

    The problems common to men include idolatry of various kinds , lusts , deception, lies etc but the empty space in our hearts where He should be is generally filled with other matters.

    #944572
    Nick
    Participant

    Fair enough.

    1 witness.

     

     

    #944574
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth…….You said ….if your focus has changed from Jesus to God the Father,  then what do you have to repent of.

    My answer to you is your focus should have been on God  the Father from the beginning,  Jesus simply was showing us how to stay focused on God, exactly as he did. I think I see your problem now you were allowing false religion to put Jesus ahead of the Father, as most all CHRISTANITY DOES.

    I am glad you put God the Father first, that’s the way it should have been with you all along, and if Jesus was here he would tell you the same thing as I am telling you. Haven’t you ever read what he said to the man who ask him , what is the greatest commandment,  he said this…….“You shall love God with “ALL” of your heart, “All” of your mind, “All” of your might” , that he said was the greatest commandment.  Jesus was never about Jesus, he was “always” about God the Father,  and we who are connected to the Father by his Spirit are exactly the same way as Jesus is and was.  I am glad you have come to see that, that exactly what Jesus was saying and preaching all along brother. 

    We are fellow believers in GOD “with Christmas Jesus” ,  Jesus does have a position among us , but he certainly does not replace God the Father to me that is, not now or ever has to me. “I bow my knee to Jesus to the “GLORY” OF GOD THE FATHER”, not because he is a God, but because God the Father has given him that athourity as a “captain” of our salvation,  but certainly not the sours of it. That Honor belongs to God the Father alone and no one else. 

    Peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………..gene

    #944575
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…….You seem to have the same problem Desire Truth had, you think that the only way to God the Father is through Jesus, because he said , no one come to the Father except by me,  but because you don’t understand the Greek word “dia” as meaning through the channel or way I do it, you are mislead to thinking that by the man Jesus we can only get to God,  when Jesus said clearly this, ” no man “CAN” come unto me, except the Father draw him”.   So who is the one who starts your salvation is it Jesus or the one who draws you to him?   I believe it is God the Father, who draws us to Jesus,  how about you?   

    Peace and love to you and yours Berean……….gene

    #944576
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DesireTruth,

    First let me say I can understand how it is you have much to sort out after having been brought up in a church full of lies. You are certainly going to have many problems aligning the NT with the OT and as well the NT with itself if you can’t see many NT scriptures in a different light then what you were taught. There have been people over the years come and go on this forum where they concluded that the NT was not God’s word having particular difficulty with Paul, but their problem was they couldn’t come out of the darkness of false interpretations. One of the worst interpretations in my opinion on this forum is that of Berean’s and others regarding Philippians 2, what is a profound truth that is being given is butchered into a complete lie. Moving forward I have much to say regarding Paul’s books what he reveals is nothing short of amazing, I would not have the understanding that I have concerning mankind and Jesus therein and our relationship to our Heavenly Father, without his words given to us from God.

    To reply to your last post to me,

    It’s not just 1 Corinthians 15:4 though, it’s not only Paul. Maybe you didn’t catch it with the scriptures of John 2 I provided for you.  John recorded that the disciples believed the scripture and the word of Jesus, concerning that he said that he would rise in three days.

    19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
    20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the “scripture”, and the word which Jesus had said.

    I’m sorry DesireTruth, but it is obvious to me that the “scripture” would of course be the account of Jonah in the fish 3 days and 3 nights as Jesus directly referred to that scripture when he spoke of himself being raised up in three days and then this indeed clearly supports that this was what Paul was referring to as well.

    Yes, they asked for a sign but you seem to gloss over the specifics to how exactly Jesus answered, he didn’t say I have NO sign to give you, just a comparison of me to that of Jonah. Jesus specifically said, “none will be given EXCEPT the sign of the prophet Jonah“. What sign? As I mentioned before, Jonah wasn’t himself a sign of anything at his time. Jesus is speaking to Jonah being a sign unto himself.

    There is more to this,

    Matt 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

    Did Paul and the Disciples believe the scriptures, that through Jonah preaching God’s word the people repented and were saved? Did they believe that Jesus is greater than Jonah, and through believing God’s word that Jesus preached and repenting they would be saved too? Yes, they believed the scriptures of Jonah, which wouldn’t that help to build further their faith in God through Jesus Christ?  I would say yes again, they believed the scriptures of Jonah and they believed Jesus and both together amplified their faith in our Heavenly Father.

    You talk about how with Jonah we see that God’s mercy extends to all of mankind and yet that is also true of God through Jesus Christ, whereby God chose him that through him all nations would be blessed, where he is a light to not just the Jews but the Gentiles as well.

    You said, “in Paul’s message of redemption, he NEVER talks about going to God directly, it’s always thru Jesus. Even Jesus says the only way to the Father is thru him, yet, in the OT one is to go to God. What and when did it change?”

    ME: I am pretty much out of time this morning so I will have to start with just a short reply, normally I give many scriptures and then speak to them connecting them all together.

    I understand what you are saying but it doesn’t align with my belief from scripture so I would argue nothing has changed. My understanding of Jesus to your current view is not the same at all it would appear.

    “the only way to the Father is thru him” what does that mean to you exactly?

    Jesus spoke God’s words not his own, believing in what Jesus said is believing in our one true God the Father. Much of what Jesus preached about concerned himself and it was prophecy fulfilled as well as prophecy not yet fulfilled. Jesus taught us in what manner we should PRAY TO OUR FATHER, he most certainly teaches us to go to our Father directly. 

    Jesus to me is my brother and my leader, my king. Jesus is to me the example of the power of God’s Spirit upon a human being. God can indeed cause righteousness in man, Jesus is our proof that where the Spirit of God is, there is righteousness and life and we believe in that life through the resurrected Jesus.

    Romans 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    Jesus was called to righteousness as Isaiah had given prophecy. He was filled with the Spirit an anointing, the Spirit that is in all goodness, righteousness and truth. Jesus is a man whom God was mindful of and visited where he was born of the Spirit where that seed remained upon him and he could not fail in following all of God’s commands.

    Our anointed Jesus was in all ways tempted as we are, he feared death like all men (which that fear is man’s carnal nature and that which can lead the human spirit to serve it’s weak mortal flesh over serving God, such is the enmity that God brought forth when Adam and Eve sinned).  Jesus, instead of serving his own flesh saving himself from the cross he through the Spirit of God in him overcame the enmity, he believed in the word of God and he was able to serve God over his weak mortal flesh even through a painful death. Jesus was raised in power, a new man, no longer having weak mortal flesh to tempt him to serve it over serving God, his spirit has been set free from that which has kept all of mankind in bondage. Jesus put it to death on the cross.

    Paul teaches us that we are to desire righteousness like that of Jesus, that we are to have hope in receiving the Spirit of God as Jesus has received. He teaches that we are joint heirs with the anointed one, Sons of God too. God had promised before the world began eternal life, well, we are given that life is through His Spirit. From the beginning, the promise of eternal life was a promise of our Father’s Spirit. Jesus of Nazareth receiving God’s Spirit to be for a light, was also God’s word from the beginning.

    As said, Jesus is our proof!  The only way to the Father is through believing in Jesus Christ and that which God accomplished in him He can accomplish in all of us. When the Son of Man returns in our Father’s glory he is God’s appointed king. We will receive the Spirit and our Father will lead us through our brother Jesus.

    #944577
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Hi desiretruth,

    You: God loves me because HE created me and I don’t need a middleman to go to HIM.

    Me: 1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

    The Truth is the truth, even when you reject it.

    #944578
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    That means there’s a contradiction between the OT and NT;  that means our unchanging God, changed; God calls himself savior in the OT, yet is unable to save in the NT. Have to wonder…

    I’ll ask again, what is the difference between the Jewish Messiah and the Christian Messiah or are they the same? Before you blurt out your rehearsed answer, I would recommend looking at both sides first.

    #944579
    Nick
    Participant

    Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and the Lord said to him in a

    vision,

    “ Ananias”

    and he said to him,

    ” Here I am Lord”,

    And the Lord said to him,

    “Get up and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for a man named Saul, for he is praying and he has seen in a vision a man called Ananias come in and lay his hands on him, so that he might recover his sight,…. Acts 9.10

    “No one can come to the Father except through me.”

    Paul met Jesus in Ananias. He was a member of the Body of Christ.

    How wonderful is the plan of God.

    Anyone reborn into Christ can baptise others in his name into the same body.

    #944588
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    God is two or more PERSONS.?

    My how far from Scripture you have wandered.

    Me

    God is ONE PERSON AND HE IS THE FATHER OF JESUS CHRIST.

    .

    1Cor.8:6

    But to us there is but one 👉God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him👈; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    🙏

    Good post.

    #944590
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @nick

    Hi Berean,
    “Divine son” makes this man his own God?

    Did you not know that he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature?

    Further, were you aware that the body we will have is like the glorious body that the Lord Jesus Christ has?

    Finally, first comes the flesh then the spirit. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body. Did you know that?

    Feel free to ask if you desire to know more.

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