John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,581 through 24,600 (of 25,997 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #944518
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    To reject Paul is to reject his Master Jesus Christ

    To reject Jesus Christ is to reject the Father Who sent Him.

    So whom do you serve?

    #944519
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    Brethren, what must we do to be saved? Is the question of the desperate sinner.

    Some are not aware of their endangered situation.

     

     

    #944522
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Nick,

    “To reject Paul is to reject his Master Jesus Christ”; so Paul saves too?!!? Do you not see the Idolatry in that statement? If this is what you believe, you can keep it; I want nothing to do with it…utterly stunned!

    #944524
    Berean
    Participant

     

     

    ISAIAH 53 – THE FORBIDDEN CHAPTER
    ONE FOR ISRAEL

    Long ago the rabbis used to read Isaiah 53 in synagogues, but after the chapter caused arguments and great confusion the rabbis decided that the simplest thing would be to just take that prophecy out of the Haftarah readings in synagogues.1 That’s why today when we read Isaiah 52, we stop in the middle of the chapter and the week after we jump straight to Isaiah 54.

    What happened to Isaiah 53, you might be wondering? That is exactly what this article is about.

    In the Bible, in the book of Isaiah, chapter 53 the prophet prophesies about the Messiah that he would be rejected by his people suffer and die in agony and that God would see his suffering and death as an atonement for the sins of humanity. Isaiah lived and prophesied about 700 BCE. According to his prophecy in chapter 53 the leaders of Israel would recognize they had made a mistake at the end of days when they rejected the Messiah, so Isaiah put the prophecy in past tense and because he saw himself as part of the people of Israel he used third person plural (we).

    AT THE END OF CHAPTER 52 ISAIAH WRITES AN INTRODUCTION TO ISAIAH 53:
    “Behold, my servant shall prosper…”

    The term “servant” is supposed to connect back to sections earlier in the book that speak of “the Servant of the Lord” (for example, in chapters 42, 49 and 50, where the Messiah is described as a servant that suffers).

    “He will be high and lifted up and greatly exalted.”

    This is to emphasize the eminence of the Messiah who would in fact rise from the dead, and ascend to the heavens and sit next to the Father.  His actions would give him a higher status that every human king or ruler.

    “Just as many were appalled at You—His appearance was disfigured more than any man, His form more than the sons of men.”

    Before the Messiah is exalted he would suffer and be humiliated. His body would be abused and tortured so badly that he would be completely disfigured and unrecognizable.

    “So He will sprinkle many nations. Kings will shut their mouths because of Him, for what had not been told them they will see, and what they had not heard they will perceive.”

    Despite the horrific suffering the day would come when even kings would come to look to him with reverence.

    AND NOW, LET’S DIVE INTO CHAPTER 53 ITSELF…
    “Who has believed our report?”

    This is describing the lack of faith among the people of Israel who don’t believe what they’ve heard.

    “To whom is the arm of Adonai revealed?”

    Isaiah calls the Messiah the “Arm of the Lord”. Earlier, in chapter 40 Isaiah declares that the “Arm of the Lord” would rule for him. In chapter 51 the gentiles put their hope in the “Arm of the Lord”, and the “Arm of the Lord” would redeem. In chapter 52 the “Arm of the Lord” brings salvation. Now, in 53, Isaiah reveals to us that the “Arm of the Lord” is in fact the Messiah. The Messiah is very much part of God himself.

    For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
    like a root out of dry ground.
    He had no form or majesty that we should look at Him,
    nor beauty that we should desire Him.

    He was a shoot in spiritually dry ground – there had been no word from God for 400 years.

    THE MEANING OF ISAIAH 53 IN THE SCRIPTURE
    “He had no beauty that we should desire Him”.

    He was not appealing to us. We didn’t want him. His appearance wasn’t particularly glorious or impressive, and the way he showed up didn’t cause people to desire him. In contrast to what rabbinic Halacha teaches today, according to this prophecy, the Messiah would not be born to a prestigious rabbinic family or grow up in the grand residences of wealthy rabbis. We can say with near certainty that the external appearance of the Messiah was nothing extraordinary at all.

    He was despised and rejected by men,
    a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief,
    One from whom people hide their faces.
    He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

    The life of the Messiah was characterized by pain, rejection and suffering. He didn’t get the honor due to the Messiah, but was despised and rejected by the leaders of his people. We considered him some kind of social misfit – someone we might hide our faces from when we pass someone on the street that we are embarrassed to see.
    We didn’t think he was the Messiah. We didn’t even register it could be him.

    Surely He has borne our griefs
    and carried our pains.
    Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
    struck by God, and afflicted.

    The Messiah suffered in our place – he carried our sicknesses, our suffering, our pain… and the sins we committed, while our people – while we – thought he was being punished, and that his suffering was God’s punishment for sins that he himself had committed. We didn’t understand that it was for OUR sin.

    But He was pierced because of our transgressions,
    crushed because of our iniquities.
    The chastisement for our shalom was upon Him,
    and by His stripes we are healed.

    The Hebrew says wounded, pierced. He died. Like someone who has fallen wounded, or someone perforated with bullets – not for any fault of his own, but it was our wrongdoing. He was crushed because of our inequities, our sins – the punishment and discipline we deserved went to him. The “stripes” are hard blows that leave marks, and by his scars we are healed. In exactly this way, hundreds of years later, the prophecy was fulfilled. Yeshua was went to the cross in order to take the death we deserved.

    We all like sheep have gone astray.
    Each of us turned to his own way.
    So Adonai has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

    The Hebrew talks of going astray like sheep wander off and get lost. We all, people of Israel, ignored him and went on our way, but despite this, God put all our sin and iniquity on him – on the Messiah.

    He was oppressed and He was afflicted
    yet He did not open His mouth.
    Like a lamb led to the slaughter,
    like a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so He did not open His mouth.

    The Hebrew says he was exploited, abused… his dignity and right to a fair trial were taken from him. The Hebrew says he was afflicted – tortured – but he didn’t open his mouth. This shows that he did not resist his unjust sentence. He didn’t try to rebel or escape, and he didn’t take legal representation in spite of the fact he was facing a death sentence, but he was led like a sheep to the slaughter, or to be sheared without resisting the injustices being done to him.

    Because of oppression and judgment He was taken away.
    As for His generation, who considered?
    For He was cut off from the land of the living,
    for the transgression of my people—
    the stroke was theirs.

    They arrested him and took his to trial. As a result of the trial he was “cut off from the land of the living”. A death sentence. Not for his own crimes, but those of his people. In the Scriptures, “My people” always means the people of Israel. The Messiah would die not for his own sin but for the sin of his people – the people who should be taking the punishment for their own sins – but the Messiah took it upon himself. He is the one who died.

    His generation wouldn’t care to bring him up in conversation, but would rather sweep his existence under the carpet. So for the last 2000 years, Yeshua the Messiah has been the best kept secret in Judaism, and this is precisely why he was labelled “Yeshu” in Judaism, which stands for “May his name and memory be blotted out”.

    His grave was given with the wicked,
    and by a rich man in His death,
    though He had done no violence,
    nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

    Even though he was taken out to be executed like a criminal, even though he did nothing wrong, and never lied, in his death he was to be buried in the fancy tomb of a rich man. Yeshua really was killed on the cross and was buried in the grave of a rich man a member of the Sanhedrin, Joseph of Arimathea. It’s a clear symbol of the ironic situation in which the Messiah receives honor for the noblest deed of them all – taking the death sentence we deserve on himself.

    Yet it pleased Adonai to bruise Him.
    He caused Him to suffer.
    If He makes His soul a guilt offering,
    He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,
    and the will of Adonai will succeed by His hand.

    So who is responsible for the death of the Messiah? “The Jews”? As so many Catholics have accused us of in the past? Maybe the Romans? They were the ones who actually crucified him? No.
    “God was pleased to bruise him”. God is the only one able to forgive and bring salvation to the world and he turned himself into a sacrifice. What kind of sacrifice? A guilt offering. The death of the Messiah was no accident – God used his own stiff-necked people as priests in order to bring about the forgiveness of sins not only for his people Israel, but for the whole of humanity. In contrast to the Yom Kippur sacrifice which was only valid until the following year and just ‘covered over’ sin, the atonement of the Messiah took away our sin once and for all! None of us as human beings are perfect – we are not able to be that perfect sacrifice. Only God himself could do that.
    After that comes a very interesting statement:

    “He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,”

    In spite of the fact he would be killed, he would also prolong his days. He would rise again from the dead and would see the “fruit of his seed”, planted in his resurrection. By the way, we also have a video on the resurrection of Yeshua.

    As a result of the anguish of His soul
    He will see it and be satisfied by His knowledge.
    The Righteous One, My Servant will make many righteous
    and He will bear their iniquities.

    The Messiah would see and be satisfied by his labor, because many would be made righteous by the suffering he endured, as a righteous man when he took on himself the sins and iniquities of many. All who recognize him as the Messiah will be his “seed” in a spiritual sense.

    Therefore I will give Him a portion with the great,
    and He will divide the spoil with the mighty—
    because He poured out His soul to death,
    and was counted with transgressors.
    For He bore the sin of many,
    and interceded for the transgressors.

    The Messiah was the one interceding for us an advocate for us as sinners before a holy God. The Messiah took on his shoulders the sin of all who believe in him. It’s an encouraging prophecy of hope and a future. God is not just interested in forgiveness expressed in words but also demonstrated in actions. That’s why he took on the appearance of a servant and took the punishment that we deserve on himself.

    THE JEWISH SAGES THOUGHT ISAIAH 53 WAS ABOUT THE MESSIAH
    It’s important to understand we’re not just talking about a Christian interpretation here – the Jewish Sages of ancient times also always interpreted Isaiah 53 to be about the Messiah. In fact, the well-known term “Messiah ben Yosef” is actually from this very text.
    In the ancient Jewish translation of Yonatan ben Uzziel (Targum Jonathan) from the first century opened the section with the words “The Anointed Servant” that is to say Ben Uzziel connected the chapter to the Messiah, the Anointed One.
    Rabbi Yitzhak Abravanel who lived centuries ago admitted that “Yonatan ben Uzziel’s interpretation that it was about the coming Messiah was also the opinion of the Sages (of blessed memory) as can be seen in much of their commentary.”

    The Book of the Zohar recognizes the principle of substitution that the suffering of the Messiah would come to take the suffering that others deserved for their sins. On the verse “Surely He has borne our griefs”, the Book of the Zohar says, “There is in the Garden of Eden a palace named the Palace of the Sons of Sickness. This palace the Messiah enters, and He summons every pain and every chastisement of Israel: All of these come and rest upon Him. And were it not that he had thus lightened them off Israel and taken them upon himself, there had been no man able to bear Israel’s chastisements for the transgression of the law.”

    Midrash Konen in discussing Isaiah 53 puts the following words in the mouth of Elijah the prophet: “Thus says the Messiah: Endure the sufferings and the sentence your Master who makes you suffer because of the sin of Yisroel. Thus it is written, “He was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities”, until the time the end comes.”
    Tractate Sanhedrin in the Babylonian Talmud (98b), writes about the name of the Messiah
    “His name is ‘the leper scholar,’ as it is written, “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted”.
    In Midrash Tanhuma it says, “Rabbi Nachman says, it speaks of no one but the Messiah, the Son of David of whom it is said, here a man called “the plant”, and Jonathan translated it to mean the Messiah and it is rightly said, “man of sorrows, acquainted with grief”.
    Midrash Shumel says this about Isaiah 53: “The suffering was divided into three parts: One for the generation of the Patriarchs, one for the generation of Shmad, and one for the King Messiah”.
    The prayers for Yom Kippur, the ones we all know also relates Isaiah 53 to the Messiah. The prayer added for Yom Kippur by Rabbi Eliezer around the time of the seventh century: “Our righteous Messiah has turned away from us we have acted foolishly and there is no one to justify us. Our iniquities and the yoke of our transgressions he bears and he is pierced for our transgressions. He carries our sins on his shoulder, to find forgiveness for our iniquities. By his wounds we are healed.”

    The deeper we go into this prayer for Yom Kippur the more significant it gets. The prayer brings the sense that the Messiah left his people. “The righteous Messiah turned [away]”. That is to say, the Messiah has already come and left. Also, the Messiah suffered in the place of the people, and the sins of people were put on him then after the Messiah suffered, he left them that was the reason for their concern and so the people are praying for his return. A large part of this prayer is taken straight out of Isaiah 53, so from this we can prove that up to the 7th century the Jewish perception – also among the rabbis – was still that Isaiah 53 was about the Messiah.
    In Genesis Rabbah, Rabbi Moshe haDarshan says that God enabled the Messiah to save souls but that together with that, he would suffer greatly. Also Maimonides relates Isaiah 53 to the Messiah in his Epistle to Yemen. Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai wrote, “And Messiah of Ephraim died there and Israel mourns for him as it is written: ‘He is despised and rejected of men’, and he goes back into hiding, for it says: ‘and we hid, as it were, our faces from him’.”

    Also in Tractate Sotah 14, Midrash Rabbah Parasha 5, Midrash Tanhuma, Midrash Konen, Yalkut Shimoni and actually the whole Talmud always related the chapter to the Messiah, as did all the rabbis until about a thousand years ago. Everyone agreed that Isaiah 53 prophesies about the Messiah.

    RASHI’S REVISION IN THE MIDDLE AGES
    Rashi lived, as we know, in Spain, at a time when Jews and Christians lived together and so naturally, arguments arose between them. Christian friends and neighbors of Rashi tried to convince him that Biblical prophecy pointed to Yeshua. Among other prophecies, they of course showed him Isaiah 53. Because the prophecy in Isaiah 53 is so sharp and clear, Rashi had no choice. He obviously didn’t want to admit that Yeshua was the Messiah, so he had to try to reinterpret the prophecy so that it was no longer about the Messiah but instead about the people of Israel. Rashi’s claim was that the suffering servant is a metaphor of the people of Israel who suffered at the hands of the gentiles.

    Many different rabbis – Gaon Rabbi Saadia, Rabbi Naphtali ben Asher, and Rabbi Moshe Alshich adamantly opposed Rashi’s new interpretation, and demanded that the Sages of Israel should ignore him and return to the original interpretation, the most famous of among them was Mamonides, who categorically declared that Rashi was completely mistaken.
    But today, it is Rashi’s interpretation that is accepted among the rabbis who also are not interested in admitting that Yeshua could have been the Messiah who was rejected, suffered and died exactly as Isaiah prophesied.
    A good example comes from Rabbi Haim Rettig, who writes, “Is it possible that any Christian anywhere in the world could fit the description of the Servant of the Lord that is led like a sheep to the slaughter? It cannot be that Isaiah the prophet could prophesy about a Christian event rather than a Jewish one. The prophecy of Isaiah is talking about the people of Israel throughout the generations, the Israel has given itself to be the innocent lamb”. What irony! Despite the fact that rabbis twisted Yeshua’s name into “Yeshu the Christian”, changing his name didn’t turn him into a Christian. The official religion of Christianity was only established in the third century. Yeshua was in fact Jewish, from the line of David, who lived here in Israel.
    Also, when Rabbi Rettig claims that the prophecy of Isaiah 53 is not about the Messiah but about Israel, that gave itself up as an innocent lamb, can we really say that the people of Israel could be described as “an innocent lamb”? Innocent lamb is a Biblical definition for one without sin, who is blameless, spotless, never does evil and would never sin, but is perfect, pure and clean from sin. Does the people of Israel really this description? It’s enough just to open the paper or listen to the news to get your answer.
    And since we’re talking about Isaiah the prophet, we’ll let Isaiah answer this question as well. Notice the words to the people of Israel just six chapters after chapter 53:

    “For your hands are defiled with blood and your fingers with iniquity. Your lips have spoken lies, your tongue mutters wickedness. No one sues justly, and none pleads a case honestly. Their feet run after evil. They rush to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity. Violence and ruin are on their highways. They do not know the path of peace, and there is no justice in their tracks. They have made their paths crooked. Whoever walks in them will not experience shalom.”

    One thing’s for sure, as far as Isaiah’s concerned Israel was no “innocent lamb”!

    HERE ARE A FEW MORE REASONS THAT MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE CHAPTER TO BE ABOUT ISRAEL
    The Suffering Servant is consistently presented as an individual and not as a plurality or collective noun, like a people group. Verse 8 says, “For the transgressions of My people He was stricken”. What people was Isaiah part of? The people of Israel, of course. So “my people” refers to the people of Israel. Therefore Israel cannot be the Suffering Servant of the Lord. If the people of Israel was the Servant of the Lord here, who would be “my people”?
    Moreover, the Servant of the Lord suffers willingly submissively and without objection. The people of Israel have never suffered willingly! According to the Torah, the suffering of Israel was a result of sin not because of their righteousness whereas the Servant of the Lord suffered as a righteous person not because he had sinned The Servant of the Lord was guiltless but according to the Torah the people of Israel were always punished and suffered because of their sin and the gentiles didn’t get healing from God because Jewish people were persecuted.
    The Servant of the Lord died in our place as a sacrifice for our sin. The people of Israel, on the other hand, didn’t suffer for the gentiles but because of their wickedness.
    The Servant rose from the dead, but the people of Israel were never “cut off” completely and so could not “rise from the dead”. If the Servant of the Lord is Israel and not the Messiah, the concept of “Messiah ben Yosef” suddenly disappears as if it never existed.
    In summary, we did wrong, the Messiah was punished. We sinned, and he suffered. We deserve death, and he was crucified in our place. A perfect God took on the likeness of a Servant in order to reveal himself to us as one of us. He allowed us to humiliate him, reject him, and to torture him to death in order to take our sins upon himself. So it’s also up to us to suffer for the good of others who sin against us. If God who is perfect can forgive us, imperfect as we are, how much more should we forgive one another? This is the wonderful message of the Suffering Servant: The God who loves us has done for us what we could never do for ourselves!

    “Generally speaking, Jews excluded from the haftarot those verses on which Christians based the principles of their religious faith… It would appear that the phenomenon is not mere coincidence and that the trend discussed in the above examples and in others that have not been mentioned, was consciously implemented. Although Jews tended to omit certain passages from the Prophets in their haftarah readings, no Jewish scholar ever considered avoiding discussing and studying them as an integral part of the Jewish Scriptures.” – Hananel Mack, Jesus What Happened to Jesus’ Haftarah?, 12/08/2005

    Isaiah 53 – The Forbidden Chapter

    God bless

     

    #944527
    Nick
    Participant

    So whom do you serve ACCUSER OF THE BRETHREN Desiretruth?

    #944528
    Nick
    Participant

    Interesting read Berean.

    Thanks.

    But a bit of nonsense thrown in.

    ” the messiah is very much part of God Himself”

    #944529
    Berean
    Participant

    Nick

    the messiah is very much part of God Himself”

    Me

    No

    Originaly , The Son IS begotten from THE FATHER AND IS OF THE SAME SUBSTANCE AS THE FATHER….

     

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    🙏

    #944530
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    SUBSTANCE.?

    You revert to catholic theology?

    The Son of God is not his Father  God.

    #944531
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi desiretruth,

    Paul said

    ”It is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me”

    “ but we have the mind of Christ”

    ”For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus

     

    To reject Paul is to reject the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

    To reject Jesus Christ is to reject the Father Who sent him.

     

    #944534
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    “To reject Paul is to reject his Master Jesus Christ”; so Paul saves too?!!?

     

    Scriptures:

    2Corinthians 12:1 If I must glory (it is not expedient indeed):
    but I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

    2 I know a man in CHRIST above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up to the third heaven. 3And I know such a man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth): 4That he was caught up into paradise,

    and heard SECRET WORDS,
    which it is not granted to MAN  to utter.

    In what sense?

    IT IS NOT GRANTED TO MAN, a clear reference to him, MOST ZEALOUS PHARISEE,

    TO UTTER”?

    Let’s keep on reading the scriptures!

    Galatians 1:11 For I give you to understand, brethren,

    that the gospel which was

    PREACHED BY ME  is not according to man.

    12 For neither did I receive it of man, nor did I learn it;

     but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    13For you have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion: how that, beyond measure, I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it. 14And I made progress in the Jews’ religion above many of my equals in my own nation, being more abundantly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 

    15But when it pleased him,

    who SEPARATED me from my mother’s womb,

    HOW AND BY WHAT PROCESS DT, DID GOD SEPARATE PAUL FROM HIS MOTHER’S WOMB?

    and called me by his grace, 

    16To reveal his Son IN ME,

    HOW DT, DID GOD REVEAL JESUS IN PAUL?

    that I might preach him among the Gentiles,

    immediately I condescended not to flesh and blood. 17Neither went I to Jerusalem, to the apostles who were before me:

    but I went into Arabia,

    WHY AND WHAT DID PAUL EXPERIENCE WHEN HE WENT INTO THE DESERT?

    REVELATIONS, AND THE TRUTH OF THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES?

    and again I returned to Damascus.18Then, after three years, I went to Jerusalem, to see Peter, and I tarried with him fifteen days. 19But other of the apostles I saw none, saving James the brother of the Lord.

    20Now the things which I write to you, behold, before God,

    I lie not.

    21Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22And I was unknown by face to the churches of Judea, which were in Christ: 23But they had heard only: He, who persecuted us in times past, doth now preach the faith which once he impugned:

    24And they glorified God IN ME.

    FIRST PAUL IN GALATIANS 1:16 ABOVE SAID THAT GOD REVEALED

    HIS SON IN HIM,

    WHILE IN THE ABOVE PAUL SAID THAT THE CHURCHES OF JUDEA

    GLORIFIED GOD IN HM!

    PAUL CONFIRMED THAT JESUS IS GOD!

    1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men,

    but as it is in TRUTH, THE WORD OF GOD,

    which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

    PAUL IN THE ABOVE CONFIRMED THAT 

    HIS WRITING IS PURE SCRIPTURES!

    “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD JESUS  WITHIN PAUL!

    THUS AS MUCH AS JESUS THE MAN, REVEALED GOD WITHIN HIM WITH HIS GOSPEL TO ISRAEL.

    PAUL REVEALED JESUS, GOD, WITHIN HIM WITH HIS GOSPEL TO THE GENTILES. CONFIRMED HEREUNDER:

    Romans 16:25 Now to him that is able to establish you,

    according to MY GOSPEL,

    and the preaching of Jesus Christ,

    according to the revelation of the mystery,

    which was kept secret from eternity,

    26(Which NOW is made manifest by

     the scriptures of the prophets,

     according to the precept of the eternal God, for the obedience of faith,) known among all nations;

    1Corinthians 14:37 If any seem to be a prophet, or spiritual,

    let him know the things that I WRITE TO YOU

    that they are the commandments of the Lord.

    AGAIN PAUL CONFIRMED  ABOVE THAT HIS PREACHING IS PURE SCRIPTURES!

    THIS IS ALSO ASSERTED IN

    2Peter 3:15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him,

    hath written to you:

    16As also in all his epistles,

    speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood,

    which the unlearned and unstable wrest,

    as they do also the other scriptures,

    to their own destruction.

    PAUL’S WRITINGS AND EPISTLES IN THE ABOVE ARE EQUIVALENTLY SCRIPTURES. 

     

    1Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you FIRST OF ALL,

    which I also received:

    how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures: 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures: 

    IN THE ABOVE DID PAUL REFER TO THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES AS HE THROUGHOUT HIS LIFE AS A FANATIC PHARISEE  BELIEVED, ACCORDING TO HIM AFTER JESUS’REVELATIONS,

    DUNG?

    Well mentioned in

    Philippians 3:7 But the things that were gain to me, the same I have counted loss for Christ. 8Furthermore I count ALL THINGS  to be but loss for the excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ my Lord; for whom I have suffered the loss of all things,

    and count them but as dung, that I may gain Christ: 

    Acts 17:10 But the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea. Who, when they were come thither, went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who received the word with all eagerness, daily searching the scriptures,

    whether these things were so.

    12And many indeed of them believed,

    and of honourable women that were Gentiles, and of men not a few.

     

    Acts  18:28 For with much vigour he convinced the Jews openly,

    shewing by the scriptures,

    that Jesus is the Christ.

     DT. ANSWER PLEASE:

    WHO SAVED THE GENTILES?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #944536
    Berean
    Participant

    Nick

    SUBSTANCE.?

    You revert to catholic theology?

    The Son of God is not his Father  God.

    Me

    They are Two persons IN THE BIGINNING AND NOW

    The Son OF GOD IS not HIS Father God

    He IS God in infinity but not in indentity, , personnality, individuality

    🙏

     

     

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of 👉his person👈, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    👉his person👈

    person👇

    hypostasis
    hoop-os’-tas-is

    from a compound of upo-hupo 5259 and isthmi-histemi 2476; a setting under (support), i.e. (figuratively) concretely, 👉essence, or abstractly, assurance (objectively or subjectively):–confidence, confidant, person, substance.👈

    Hebrews 1:3 N-GFS
    GRK: χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ φέρων
    NAS: and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds
    KJV: of his person, and
    INT: [the] exact expression of the substance of him upholding

    #944537
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Complicated theology added to scripture to try to rationalise the Spiritual words.
    Following deceived men into their ditch.

    Be Berean.

    #944538
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Nick,

    “Be Berean”; that is precious, gave me a good chuckle when I read it.

    You ridicule Berean for not verifying what he is told and ridicule me for verifying what I’m told. Tell us what parts of scripture are we to verify and which are we to just blindly accept? Sounds like a contradiction to me. What’s humorous about that statement is you have verified nothing I have said and reject it because it doesn’t align with your beliefs. When are you going to “be Berean”?

    #944552
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    What you posted is “messianic Judaism”, a branch of “christianity” where Jews can keep their identity and customs, but follow the “rules” of the christian system. This organization, One for Israel, makes the claim Isa 53 is “the forbidden chapter”, which is a lie. This chapter isn’t “forbidden”, you can find studies done by Jewish teachers on this chapter all over the internet. If this organization will lie about this, what else will they lie about?

    KJV: “Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.”

    Hebrew translation: “And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God’s purpose shall prosper in his hand.”

    Why are the two above translations not the same, which translation is correct, and which am I suppose to believe?

    #944553
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth……If I were you I would believe the KJV, and others by far before I would believe the Jew’s renditions,  who constantly reject Jesus as the MESSIAH, who they by their evil hand had put to death.  They rejected Jesus then and Now also,   and will be rejected by him, at his return , unless they repent.  what you think you have uncovered is nothing new,  the Jews have been teaching that for many years,  what you have done is fallen from grace and come under their condemnation.

    Repent and return and separate yourself from those corrupt Jewish teachers, who are still seeking to justify themselves for killing Jesus our lord .

    Seeing you have joined them and believe they’re false narratives, about rejecting Jesus, Paul and the other Apostles,  then you will get to join them in their judgement at the return of Jesus Christ,   the true Messiah of God the Father> unless you repent,  “your call” .

    You had it right once, concerning Jesus as the true  Messiah, why have you let those “Blind Jews”, trip you up?, Sad!

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………gene

     

    #944555
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    Faith, even blind faith, is needed for you to wean yourself from your reliance on your own perceptions. You are your own foundation and you need  the mind of Christ. God is greater than your perceptions allow you to see.

    #944556
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    Why are the two above translations not the same, which translation is correct, and which am I suppose to believe?

    Me

    I recommend the KJ BIBLE
    BUT I KNOW YOU WILL NOT FOLLOW THIS ADVICE.

    #944557
    Berean
    Participant

    Nick

    Complicated theology added to scripture to try to rationalise the Spiritual words.
    Following deceived men into their ditch.

    Be Berean.

    Me

    Complicated theology added to scripture to try to rationalise the Spiritual words.
    Following deceived men into their ditch.

    Me

    I beleive that Jesus is the divine Son of God made flesh for our salvation.

    🙏

    #944558
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Paul had to fall from his pedestal and become blind to begin to see.

    Only then could he understand that Knowledge puffs up but love edifies,

    And that the weakness of God is greater than our strength.

    Take care.

     

    #944559
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    God is two or more PERSONS.?

    My how far from Scripture you have wandered.

     

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