John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,561 through 24,580 (of 25,998 total)
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  • #944366
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    Everyone seems to forget, I was on the same page (few exceptions) with most posting here. In fact was encouraged in my writings by some. Then about two months ago I came across the I Cor 15:3,4 verse; but didn’t gloss over it this time and everything was overturned…AGAIN! I have been “given” passages that are said to be pointing to “Messiah dying”; but, when the surrounding verses and chapters are put into context, the claim doesn’t work.

    Then I asked where in the OT is Paul’s claim the Messiah was to be buried and raised up on the third day and have heard nothing. How do you not understand the issue? Paul said “according to scripture”, which means it’s stated in the OT; not buried between the lines or hidden within a mystery. Every other place in the NT when it says “as it is written” or “to fulfill scripture” a verse is directly pointed to and quoted; just not here…explain.

    #944367
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth…….no where in the Old Testament doe it say Jesus would be in the Grave three days and thre nights,   Jesus know that so he himself compared his time in the Grave to Jonah,  and revealed it to them before it happened.  Where did Paul say that Jesus was prophesied to be in the Grave three days and three nights at?  But there are many scriptures that reference him in the Old Testament ,  even Moses told the people that God would raise up a prophet like him from among them, and that they should listen to him.  In the book of Plsms he is said to not see corruption in the grave. And Jesus is the only one who can fulfill the prophesy of a suffering servant, the nation of Israel ,nor the Jews  cannot fulfill the prophesy of Isa 53 , that is clearly evident by all the Old Testament , they were never servants of God  or they would still be in their land and would have never been kicked out in the first place if they were true “suffering servants’’,.
    Desire Truth……..you’re swatting at a gnat and swallowing  a camel.  This is causing you to turn away from Jesus Christ our lord, bad form brother.

    peace and love to you and your Desire Truth……….gene

    #944368
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Either I am not explaining it properly or you are intentionally ignoring/rejecting what is being said.

    You: “no where in the Old Testament doe it say Jesus would be in the Grave three days and three nights”

    Me: Exactly!! YET, Paul said this was “according to scripture.” If this is “according to scripture”, the only “scripture” available to the first century church was the OT.

    You: “Where did Paul say that Jesus was prophesied to be in the Grave three days and three nights at?”

    Me: Copied from the KJ – I Cor 15:3,4 “3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE:”

    Other translations say “just as the Scriptures said”, “as the Scriptures say”, “as the Scriptures predicted”, “as written in the Scriptures”, “according to the Writings”, “just as it is written”, “as the scriptures foretold”, “in accordance with the Scriptures”; are you seeing it yet?

    Tell me where Paul was quoting from because I can’t find it! Without any doubt by saying “according to scripture” Paul was referencing something written in the past. How can this be ignored?!?!

    From where you begin writing “In the book of Psalms…” to the end of the paragraph, you still haven’t read with understanding what I have written. Since I’ve said Ps 16 and 22 and Isa 53 are not speaking of Jesus, you have rejected everything I have said and have dismissed it as being false; without ever looking into what I have said. You have never answered a question I have asked nor explained your position to why you believe these chapters are speaking of Jesus and because it “sounds like” Jesus isn’t proof.

    Tell me which would be more dangerous, rejecting God the Father or rejecting Jesus? Before you say rejecting Jesus is rejecting the Father, answer why in the OT God is salvation and in the NT God can no longer handle the job and requires a “helper”? Are you saying God’s salvation in the OT is less adequate than the NT kind?  When was the last time you verified the teachings of the “church”?

    #944369
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    It seems you must be led by sight, and understanding must go before faith.
    You have yet to be buried with Christ that you may be raised with him
    You do have those choices and you are welcome to make them.
    But you will not be satisfied till others join your mission it seems.

     

    #944370
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Nick,

    I’m not asking anyone to join me. I’m asking questions that no one seems to be able or willing to answer. Your responses are an excellent example and proves you cannot answer them either. Am I not suppose to question anything? Am I suppose to just blindly accept all that the church tells me? Is blind faith even faith?

    Oh wait, I suppose to read scripture and the spirit will guide me to understanding; but don’t ask questions when something doesn’t make sense! And heaven forbid you continue to ask questions, you’ll be told the “spirit isn’t in you”, labeled as an “unbeliever”, a “heretic”, or one who is deceived. It’s like an exclusive country club and if you don’t comply, you’re out; sadly, that’s the “church” today.

    What I find hilarious is instead of showing where the “error” is and explaining how or why it’s an error, everyone gets defensive – how dare I question church liturgy! Is this how you all respond to the “unbeliever”? It’s no wonder the modern church is falling apart and people are leaving in droves.

    #944371
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    With Paul we say “ It is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me.”

    We been baptised into his death that we may share in his resurrection. Having been beheaded for the sake of his headship ticking the intellectual boxes to satisfy the minds of men is no longer relevant.

    But enjoy your mission even though it will not bear good fruit.

     

    #944372
    Nick
    Participant

    A vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedonia was standing and appealing to him, and saying

    ” Come over to Macedonia and help us”….

    So putting out to sea from Troas, we ran a straight course to Samothrace….

    and from there to Phillipines..

    And on the Sabbath day we went outside the city to a riverside, where we were supposing there would be a place of prayer..

    A woman named Lydia,….. a worshipper of God was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. And when she and her household had been baptised, she urged us saying.

    ”If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay”

    And she prevailed upon us.

    Acts 16.9f

    God’s ways are not our ways and His wisdom is far deeper.

     

    #944373
    Nick
    Participant

    The Modern “ church” bears no relationship to that which established by Jesus Christ but is a false one and doomed to collapse and reveal her true nature.

    #944374
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Nick,

    You still don’t understand, I am merely asking questions and offering additional thoughts, albeit contrary to what I have been taught for over 40 years. You still have answered zero questions; which tells me you aren’t as strong in your faith as you think you are. You keep saying “nothing new under the sun”; then my questions should have simple and easy answers because they have already been asked. Why can’t you answer them?

    By the way, the “modern church” is what you currently belong to.

    #944375
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    No religious affiliation.
    Your questions are never to uplift but only to pull down faith because that is where your soul languishes in hopelessness and misery which is a lonely place.

     

    #944376
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi desiretruth,

    Convinced in your own ideas your hope is to draw others into your doubts and isolation.

    Sure that the ways of God are like your own is your downfall.

    Only God can make you childlike again.

    #944465
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Desire Truth,

    I admire your persistence and trying to hold folks accountable to your question concerning the OT scripture that Paul was speaking to in 1 Corinthians 15 as it relates to 3 days and 3 nights.

    1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    John 2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

    The disciples are clearly referring to scripture from the book of Jonah to which Jesus spoke of.

    Matthew 12:39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    Paul and the disciples believed in Jesus’s words, to which Jesus spoke of a sign and related it to scripture of Jonah. Because of Jesus’s own words they came to acknowledge that the account of Jonah in the whale three days and three nights was also a prophetic sign related to Jesus. 

    You had previously said, “some will jump to Jonah as proof; please don’t, Jesus had said he would be in the earth As Jesus was in the belly of the whale. This isn’t a prophecy but a comparison and Jonah being in the whale was a punishment for not listening to God. If we are going to use Jonah as proof, what was Jesus being punished for?

    Jesus’s sign he said was “the sign of the prophet Jonah”. Was Jonah being in the whale three days and three nights itself any sort of sign at that time, NO. Jesus tells us that Jonah being three days and three nights in the heart of the earth  was a prophetic sign concerning himself and Paul and the disciples believed it. 

    Yes, we could say that Jonah was being punished for not listening to God, but punishment is to be tested and being tested serves an instructional purpose.

    Jesus himself was being tested and perfected.

    Jesus said that he would be in the HEART of the earth three days and three nights. The heart of the earth does not represent anywhere in the bible that I could find as the grave. The HEART of the earth I would argue represents the wicked realm of man.

    Genesis 6:5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

    Psalms 528:1 Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men? 2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.

    God had protection over Jesus until his time was to come, keeping him from the hearts of man on the earth who wanted to destroy him. As well, Jesus knew times to hide himself.

    John 8:20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

    John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

    John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified…27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour…13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him;

    The hour came when Jesus entered into the heart of the earth, the day of his betrayal where Judas made a deal and watched for an opportune time to hand him over.  God took away his protection and Jesus would no longer hide, he would face unjust judgment by the wicked hearts and violent hands of the sons of men.

    Mark 8:31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.

    After three days FROM him being dead, or after three days FROM him suffering many things?

    We do see from scripture that it was believed Jesus meant three days from his death, but it would be convenient to have them misunderstand for otherwise they might have thought to guard the tomb sooner.

    Jesus had said on Wednesday that his time had come, he knew he was being betrayed where on that day Judas met with the chief priests making a deal and sought from that time an opportunity to hand him over. Jesus was laid in the tomb before sunset on Friday and it would be three days and three nights from Wednesday if he rose on the Sabbath early on Saturday before the guards secured the tomb. When God promised that his body would not see decay is this because he would raise him from the dead at a time before the body begins to decay? After 24 hours internal organs start to decompose.

    When Jonah was in the whale three days and three nights he was being tested and his soul was troubled. Jonah cried, prayed, honored God and received deliverance from death.

    When Jesus knew that he had been betrayed by Judas he began to be tested where his soul was troubled. Jesus cried, prayed, and honored God even while he was being beaten, mocked and crucified, he too received deliverance, he was resurrected from the dead.

    Like I said, I am opening a can of worms I know here!

    A final statements for now,

    Jesus was being punished in the heart of the earth, by wicked sons of men, which God allowed for the purpose of testing his faith, for the purpose which we are told that through his suffering he was perfected.

    To repeat my position, By Jesus answering, “none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah”, he was revealing indeed that Jonah being in the whale three days and three nights was a prophetic sign in relation to himself.

     

     

     

     

     

    #944466
    Nick
    Participant

    Thank you Jodi and Gene,

    ”As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made carful searches and enquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.”1 Peter1.10f

    Jonah was a prophet.

    Jonah died. Like Jesus he gave up his human spirit in death.

    jn 19.30  Lk 24.46

    But also like Jesus, as an anointed man, he was yet alive by the Eternal Spirit of life. 1 Peter 3.18

    And like Jesus he was resurrected back to earthly life.

     

     

    #944475
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi and Nick……Amen to you both.

    peace and love to you and yours………..gene

    #944496
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,
    My persistence is a demand for truth, I am finding I have wasted 40 years following doctrines of man and not what God said. This isn’t the X-Files where “the truth is out there” as we argue over our interpretation of the bible; God told us HIS simple truth and we need to stop complicating what HE said.

    Jonah is a prime example; Jesus made a comparison to what happened to Jonah to what was to happen to him. The answer given was prompted because the scribes and pharisees asked for a sign (tangent – what kind of “sign” where they looking for?) and the sign they where to be given was “as Jonah was…so will the son of man be.” Jesus was making a comparison. Jonah actions and subsequent consequence wasn’t prophesy about what was to happen to a future Messiah when he ran from what God told him to do and ended up inside a large fish. There is no supposed “death” correlation of Jonah being inside the fish and Jesus in a tomb…Jonah never died inside the fish. Then to go on to say the fish vomiting Jonah onto the beach relates to Jesus rising from the tomb is man’s reading between the lines to make a doctrine work. I don’t know if this is what you have been taught, but this is the general teaching of the many churches I have attended throughout my years and is man’s doctrine.

    If Jesus is all you or anyone gets out of Jonah, one has missed the point of the book. Jonah is in my opinion one of the most relatable prophets, he fits how a real person would respond to God when faced with a difficult task. God asked him to go to an enemy city (capital of Assyria) and tell them to turn from their wickedness or God will destroy them, you have 40 days – figure it out. What do you think was going thru Jonah’s mind at that point? My guess, if he doesn’t give them the message God will destroy them and they are no longer a threat to Israel and the fact he’s an Israelite going into an enemy city. I’d run the opposite direction too – exactly what he did. God said nope, your giving the message to the city and I’ll let you think about it inside a fish for three days. God gave Jonah a second opportunity and he delivers God’s message. The next part makes Jonah even more relatable, he gets angry at God because the entire city repents and is spared from destruction.

    Is the message here Jesus or is it the loving kindness God has for HIS creation? Jonah 4:11 says it all when God says “Shouldn’t I be concerned for Nineveh…?”, a wicked city that repented. Sounds like God’s mercy extends to all mankind and it comes directly from HIM; and not through or because of anyone else. In Paul’s message of redemption, he NEVER talks about going to God directly, it’s always thru Jesus. Even Jesus says the only way to the Father is thru him; yet, in the OT one is to go to God. What and when did it change? Are you seeing it? It’s almost like Catholicism where one goes to the priest for confession and they will work on your behalf before God. You want to open Pandora’s box, let’s keep going with this line of thought.

    I Cor 15:4 still remains left unanswered…and by association, verse 3. Not looking for extrapolations, Paul said it was “according to scripture”, which means it’s written what was to happen to the Messiah.

    #944508
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    God has provided us with His teachings through the men of old and He has given us the keys to unlocking their meaning through Jesus Christ and his brothers who share in his Spirit.

    There are no promises that all would understand and agree.
    It requires faith.

    find it.

    #944510
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    We walk by faith and not by sight.

    Truly truly I say to you , unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    So understanding follows obedience to the command that we repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ and receive the promised Sprit of Truth.

    Folks want to nderstand first and stand arguing outside the gates of salvation.

    #944514
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Nick,

    You realize you have addressed nothing in anything I’ve written; so what is your point in responding? Your religious responses do NOT answer my questions; either answer them and offer insight or remain silent. Your meaningless responses further solidifies what I am discovering and confirms that you don’t know why you believe what you believe. Having faith in something is one thing, but blind faith is just blindness.

    #944515
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    You need to be in control.  Hmmm.

    #944517
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Nick,

    Has nothing to do with control, it’s me seeking answers. Answers that you are either afraid to answer for fear of the repercussions it will have on your belief system or you have no answer too. You say there is nothing new under the sun; yet, I have apparently uncovered something “new” because no one, including yourself, can answer the questions asked.

    So you don’t feel bad, neither could a former “pastor” and I wasn’t asking my current set of questions, they were simpler like “once saved, always saved”, the trinity, preexisting Jesus, or why do we accept Greek philosophy being merged into Christianity.

    I’m looking for answers, either offer some and explain your reasoning or ignore the conversation. After all, isn’t easier to ignore an issue in the hopes it goes away than to address it?

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