John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,541 through 24,560 (of 25,998 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #944312
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    It seems that you have identified yourself as an unbeliever.
    No problem.  The world is full of them and unless God steps in that is what you will remain.
    God has sent His Son and is unlikely to do anything else if you choose not to respond to His gift.

    #944313
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    Following the death of His son at the hands of unbelievers he was raised back to life. Then the Spirit he had been given was shared with all who obey His son, so that he still lives in a remnant people and so the efforts to silence him can only lead to frustration of their hopes. He is Lord of all and it is safest to be on his side.

     

     

     

    #944314
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    God deliberately offers simplicity defying the logical mindset of humans.

    He requires blind faith in Him and His servants.

    Jesus came to save sinners.

    Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad for your reward in heaven is great for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

    #944317
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    For the wisdom of God is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it must s the power of God.

    For it is written

    I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.

    Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age?

    Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

    For since in the wisdom of God the world through it’s wisdom did not come to know God, God was well pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to gentiles foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 1 Cor 1.18 f

    so have you been called yet?

    #944319
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    So you can see that God does not care about the roadblocks placed to stop folks accepting the message? That is His design. He knows only the desperate and hopeless will be willing to commit  intellectual suicide and walk by faith, not by sight.

    have you been called yet?

    #944318
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    So you can see that God does not care about the roadblocks placed to stop folks accepting the message? That is His design. He knows only the desperate and hopeless will be willing to commit  intellectual suicide and walk by faith, not by sight.

    have you been called yet?

    #944325
    Nick
    Participant

    “You are his disciple but we are disciples of Moses. We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man , we do not know where he is from”

    The man answered and said to them,

    ” Well, here is an amazing thing, that you do not know where he is from, and yet he has just opened my eyes. We know that God does not hear sinners, but if anyone is God fearing and does His will, He hears him. Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a man born blind. If this man were not from God He could do nothing” Jn 9.29

    the prophet from Galilee?

    Nothing new under the Sun.

     

     

    #944326
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi,

    Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.  For if you believed Moses you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But f you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?

    jn 5.45f

    #944328
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @proclaimer @admin

    Hi Proclaimer/Admin,

    Why don’t you ban this deceiver called “desiretruth”?
    He himself said: “Separate the OT from the NT and quit trying to merge what cannot be merged.” (post-944265)
    That’s his agenda. Is that okay with you?

    #944329
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Danny,

    “Heaven Net is dedicated to freedom of speech in our forums. While posts are moderated, we do not clamp down on opposing views like many platforms do today. Instead, we moderate the likes of spam, forum flooding, hate speech, and dodgy content. Opposing views will be challenged for sure, but not silenced.”

    Any questions?

    #944330
    Nick
    Participant

    Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

    Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

    Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

    Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

    Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

    Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

    Blessed are those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Matt 5.2 f

    #944331
    Nick
    Participant

    Therefore, having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face, so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were hardened; for until this present day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlisted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face , beholding as a mirror the Glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit,

    2 Cor3.12 F

    #944332
    Nick
    Participant

    For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery- so that you will not be wis in your own estimation- that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved….

    Rom 11.25 f

     

    #944333
    Nick
    Participant

    The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went to the synagogue of the Jews. Now these were more noble minded than those in Thessalonians, for they received the Word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed along with a number of prominent Greek women and men. acts 17 .10f

     

    #944336
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    YOU: “If I had an enemy and I had a plan to defeat him within the laws that I myself set, then I wouldn’t be stupid enough to divulge that plan verbatim like you are expecting.”

    ME: Are you saying “Satan” was to stupid to understand what was written in the OT?!?! Now there’s a good laugh! What exactly was “hidden” in the OT that man was not capable of understanding at the time it was written?

    I am saying that it would be stupid to divulge the full plan as you expect the Old Testament to do. That would include the possibility of hiding things in the Old Testament from the wicked, but especially not mentioning other things at all.

    The Old Testament is not the full plan of God and it perplexes me why you think this should be the case. God’s plan unfolds. There is a season for everything.

    Even the New Testament doesn’t divulge everything. One step at a time and there is plenty of time left.

    Basic stuff desiretruth. If you do not understand this, then I think something is blocking your mind from seeing that because it is almost a given that such would be the case.

    YOU: “If scripture says it, and you fit the bill, then that is not me imposing my own standards on you is it?”

    ME: However, it was YOU who implied I was “wicked” by using scripture. Own it!

    If I imply something, it doesn’t suddenly change meaning. It is said as a universal truth that applies to all. God hides his plan from the wicked. And that is not only sensible, but necessary I would have thought. Myself mentioning this doesn’t change this fact. And it is a given that this applies to all who are wicked and against God. It is up to each men to judge whether he falls under this or not. I do not judge you. But I recommend that we all judge ourselves with the truth.

    YOU: “They were blind and did the will of God without realizing it.”

    ME: You still have produced no scripture stating the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind from the OT. Paul used simple, plain language in his statement and there is NOTHING in the OT that states the messiah was to die for the sins of mankind. Who is the messiah the Jews are waiting for? The OT does talk about a messiah…is the Jewish messiah the same as the Christian messiah?

    I did show you scripture, but you have conveniently disregarded it by trying hard to show that it doesn’t apply. But we also have the law itself and the sacrificial lamb. Many things in the Old Testament are a shadow of things to come or represent the truth or a greater reality. The Ark of the Covenant is a representation. The Sabbath represents YHWH’s rest. The sacrificial lamb represents the covering of sins by the blood of the innocent.

    The carnal do not really understand this. But God demonstrates his plan through such things. He prepares us for what is to come using such things. It is for those who have the Spirit to correctly understand the point of such things. The difference between the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law.

    For example, the law says you shall not murder. But the Spirit teaches us through this, that we should not hate our brother. Just because you have not murdered anyone doesn’t mean you are not guilty of hating your brother.

    A strict interpretation of the Old Testament sees you miss out on the intended spirit.

    The messiah had this to say on the subject:

    “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

    #944337
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    YOU: “Should God spell it all out so he can ruin God’s plan?”

    ME: Please enlighten me, who is able to “ruin God’s plan”; are you saying God has no idea how it’s going to end? To say “Satan” could “ruin” God’s plan; is to say God isn’t all knowing and small.

    God gave us free will. If you divulge your plan, then some could counter the plan because of free will. Joseph was going to rule over his brothers so his brothers sold him into slavery which eventually led him to ruling over his brothers. So yes, God can make his plan come to fruition even if he divulges the plan in part. But I suspect that the sacrificial lamb had to be sacrificed. If that was going to be the undoing of the wicked, then I am guessing that they would not sacrifice the lamb of God and then there would be no sacrifice for our sins. That said, I agree and think God could make it happen in a different way. Regardless,  God doesn’t reveal everything to us in the Old Testament. So deal with that.

    YOU: “people who love truth will know the truth.”

    ME: When everyone believes what they believe is truth, you end up with 30,000 different religions; then is it “truth” or is it “beliefs”?

    Logic tells us that there is 30,000 different lies you can tell, but only one truth. 1+1=2. It doesn’t equal any other number between 1 and 30,000 and beyond. So this is not an argument. The argument is whether Jesus Christ is the truth or not.

    YOU: “God sent the messiah to save you by becoming the lamb of God and being sacrificed once and for all.”

    ME: Explain:

    The blood sacrifice of an unblemished lamb covers sins momentarily. But the unblemished Son of God can cover all sins for all eternity. It is simply the one solution to cover our own sin without the eternal repetition of the sacrificing an actual lamb.

    Leviticus 4:20
    And he shall do with the bull as he did with the bull as a sin offering; thus he shall do with it. So the priest shall make atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them. 

    Hebrews 10:4
    For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

    Nowhere in the Old Testament is it asserted that sins were “eliminated” (that is, entirely eradicated) through animal sacrifices. The original Hebrew term for “atonement” in the Old Testament, kaphar, conveys the concept of “covering”, rather than complete elimination.

    #944338
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Ps 51:16 “For You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; You take no pleasure in burnt offerings.” So what does God want; “17. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart”

    Hosea 6:6 “For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings.” Here God desires “mercy and knowledge” and not “sacrifices and burnt offerings.”

    It seems the OT and NT are in conflict; how can this be justified away to make them agree? Is it time to reevaluate what Christianity is saying?

    It’s not hard to understand. God doesn’t like sacrifice but it is necessary. I do not like discipline but that too is necessary. I do not like to discipline my own sons, but sometimes it has to be done. This is not necessary in a perfect world, but our world is not perfect. In short, doing things we do not enjoy can have a greater long term benefit. Think of exercise for example.

    YOU: “I’m not a fan of mainstream religion.”

    ME: Jesus taught those who disbelieve will be condemned; interpretation: believe in “me” to live for eternity; if not, be tormented for eternity, is this love or fear?

    Forever does not mean what you think it means. It is an aeon or an age. It is clear in scripture that the wicked will perish. They will be destroyed. Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire to be consumed at the end of the next age.

     

    #944340
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    yes

    Yes we do speak wisdom among those who are mature, however not of this age nor the rulers that of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    1 Cor 2.6f

     

    #944353
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    There are two kind of deceivers:
    One denies Jehovah God.
    The other denies His Son Jesus Christ.
    I think you know that, don’t you?

    #944359
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    What is the point of your statement?

    The definition of deceive is “to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid.” Please do tell me where or what I have said that caused you to accept what is false or invalid. To be “deceived”, one must accept; so your example of types of “deceivers” makes no sense.

    Nowhere have I denied God, in fact I have pushed him more to the front if anything; concerning Jesus, I don’t think I have flat out denied who he is. All I have said is the NT comes into question and specifically Paul and what he “teaches.”

    The QUESTION I asked was to find where in the OT is Paul’s “according to scripture” claim the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind AND be buried and raised up on the third day. Then I said, IF this statement cannot be found/validated in the OT, we have a problem. Somehow I am a “deceiver” for pointing out this “anomaly.”

    The reality is everyone believes a statement to be true which cannot be validated; I’m validating what is said to be true and can’t validate it (apparently neither can anyone else). So, by the definition, who is deceiving who?

    Oh, what a tangled web we weave…

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