John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,221 through 24,240 (of 26,007 total)
  • Author
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  • #943585
    Berean
    Participant

    God bless

    #943586
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel…….I am of the “root”

    of the Balthrop family, and also the “offspring” of ANDREW,   JUST THAT SIMPLE.  no mystery, no tricks, no deceptions, simple the truth.

    ME; But you are not 

    the root itself!

    THE BEGINNING!

    AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943587
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel you said…….”THE ROOT IS ALWAYS THE BEGINNING OF ALL FRUITS!”

    Wrong, again,    The Seed is!

    ME: OUT OF CONTEXT!

    WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING 

    WHO OR WHAT IS THE BEGINNING?

    BUT THE PROCESS BETWEEN

    THE ROOT AND THE OFFSPRING!

    NOW BETWEEN THE ROOT AND THE OFFSPRING

    THE ROOT IS ALWAYS THE BEGINNING OF ALL FRUIT/OFFSPRING!

    AND ALSO THE LIFE OF ALL FRUIT/OFFSPRING!

    NOW: YOU AND NO OTHER HUMAN  EVER ON EARTH CAN BE

    BOTH

    THE ROOT AND THE OFFSPRING Mr. GENIOUS!

    JESUS IS/WAS BOTH

    AS SIMPLE AS THAT

     

    ALSO, SINCE YOU MENTIONED THE SEED!

    WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT, IT’S YOUR PIGEON,

    BUT JESUS AS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD IS BOTH

    THE BEGINNING AND

    THE SEED OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD!

    ALL IN HIM

     

    peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943590
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……you lack the ability to understand The sense in which things are said in scriptures. Jesus died for (because of) our sin and not only ours but the sins of the whole world.  That needs to be understood in the right context.

    Jesus was the man God prophesied to come by the prophets,  he was the first human being to not sin, he was a the prototype of the “perfect man”, from mankind that God the Father perfected through his Spirit,  as Scripture clearly shows,  he bear witness of the truth of God to us all, was taken by sinful people and was killed by them.

    He demonstrated to us all how to live a “perfect life”,  and it is exactly the same as he lived.  It is in that ‘SENSE’  Jesus Died for the sins of us and the world, to demonstrate the way to live to have a right relationship with the Father,  it is exactly the same as he lived.  We must become another Jesus to the Father,  by icing our lives “EXACTLY” , THE WAY HE DID.  

    JESUS did not pay for my sins,  I must “repent”,  of my sins, and be perfected by the SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD,  “EXACTLY” AS JESUS WAS.  He is the “WAY” to eternal life. He is not eternal life himself, but the “WAY” to eternal life.

    scripture says……“we have all sinned  and come short of the glory of God”  and David said ….”against you “only” have I sinned”.  Our sins are against GOD THE FATHER,  not against Jesus, and it it GOD THE FATHER himself that must forgive us. AND HE DOES THAT WHEN WE TURN TO HIM IN FAITH, AND HE WILL GIVE US THE POWER TO REPENT OF OUR SINS,  THROUGH HIS HOLY SPIRIT,WE BECOME THE SONS OF GOD, AND ARE BEGOTTEN OF HIM. 

    Our salvation from start to finish is of God the Father,  and no other just as Jesus’ salvation was also.   Jesus did not pay our sin debit we pay for that , just as it says …..”the soul that sins “IT”, SHALL DIE.  Therefore we must be born again in order to have life eternal,  just as Scripture and Jesus said.

    I do not steal the glory that belongs to GOD the Father “ONLY”. and give it to any man, not even to Jesus. “MY SAVIOR AND JESUS’ SAVIOR IS GOD THE FATHER” , NONE OTHER. 

    Peace and love to you and yours Berean……..gene

     

    #943592
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi Gene,

    You:  “EXACTLY” AS JESUS WAS.

     He is the “WAY” to eternal life.

    ME:  A PURE LIE!

    You: He is not eternal life himself,

    ME:  A PURE LIE!

    You: but the “WAY” to eternal life.

    ME:  A PURE LIE!

    Me: Gene,

    Where did you read such Gospel, please?

    IN THE MEANE TIME READ!

    The Scripture:

    John1:4 In him was life,

    and the life was the light of men. 

     

    John3:16:For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever

    believeth in him,

    may not perish,

    but may have life everlasting.

    John4:14 But the water that I will give him,

    shall become in him a fountain of water,

    springing up into life everlasting.

     

    John 5:24 Amen, amen I say unto you,

    that he who heareth MY WORD,

    and believeth him that sent me,

    hath life everlasting;

    and cometh not into judgment,

    but is passed from death to life.

     

    John5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself,

    so he hath given the Son also to have

    LIFE IN HIMSELF:

    John6:35 And Jesus said to them:

    I am the bread of life: …

    John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing.

    The words that I have spoken to you,

    are spirit and life.

     

    John 11:25 Jesus said to her:

    I am the resurrection and the life:

    he that believeth in me, although he be dead, shall live: 26And every one that liveth, and believeth in me, shall not die for ever. Believest thou this? 

    John14:6 Jesus saith to him:

    I am the way,

    and the truth,

    and the life.

    No man cometh to the Father,

    but by me.

    John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh,

    that HE MAY GIVE ETERNAL LIFE

    to all whom thou hast given him.

    1John1:2For the life was manifested;

    and we have seen and do bear witness, and declare unto you

    the life eternal,

    which was with the Father,

    and HATH APPEARED to us:

     

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943595
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    How about this one

    1 Corinthians 15:45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul.

    The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

    #943597
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…….According to you people, he always was a life giving Spirit,  so then why does it say “HE “BCAME”,  A life giving Spirit.   Seeing you falsely believe he always was?

    Trust me Carmel you haven’t a clue what you are saying,  you have fallen for the biggest “LIE” ever fostered on humanity.  In fact you are a minister of that “LIE”  yourself, the “LIE” mentioned in,  2ths2,   You have turned the “IMAGE” of the only man “Jesus “,  who now sits in the temple of GOD, INTO YOUR GOD and you worship him as such, commuting “IDOLATRY “. You have made the “image” of the “man” Jesus, into “a-man of sin”  ,  by saying he is a God which breakers the First commandment of God,  “you shall have “NO OTHER GOD BESIDE ME”.  

    That’s what is sad to me,  SATAN has sold you a package of Lies , and you have taken it hook line and sinker, and you will pay the price, except you REPENT!

    peace and love to you and yours Carmel……….gene

     

     

     

     

     

    #943599
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    You: “MY SAVIOR AND JESUS’ SAVIOR IS GOD THE FATHER” , NONE OTHER.

    Me: And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
    1 John 4:14

    #943602
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel…….According to you people, he always was a life giving Spirit,

     so then why does it say “HE “BCAME”,  A life giving Spirit.

    Me: First and foremost, You must take into consideration that,

    WE ARE REFERRING TO GOD AND HIS SPIRITUAL WORK IN HIS ONLY

    BEGOTTEN SON!

    GOD IS A PERFECT PARADOX! NO! 

    AND THIS APPLIES ALSO TO HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON! AS JESUS SAID IN

    John 16:15 All things whatsoever the Father hath,

    are mine…

    Now in order for Jesus toBECOME” A LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT NOT FOR HIM BUT FOR THE SAKE OF CREATION,  ATTENTION PLEASE:

    HE MUST  FIRST OF ALL EXPERIENCE A STATE NEVER OCCURRED IN RELATION TO GOD WHICH IS DEATH ON THIS MORTAL PLANET, AND IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH,

    THROUGH DEATH ITSELF, 

    HE JUSTIFIED HIMSELF THAT HE IS, even before He suffered, Luke 13:32

    GODMAN, John13:31,32, John 17:1

    HE HAD TO BE A MAN IN ORDER TO DIE, AND 

    HE NEVER LACKED THE STATE OF GOD ON HIS DEATH, EVEN WHILE IN HIS TOMB, THUS in one instant, BANG ON HIS DEATH, HE GLORIFIED AND 

    He was both dead AS MAN “THE WORD” made flesh,

    THE SON OF MAN!

    and alive AS DIVINE in The Holy Ghost

    THE SON OF GOD!

    JESUS’FLESH BECACME SPIRIT!

    AS IN MY WEAKNESS, MY POWER  IS MADE PERFECT.

    1Peter 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God,

    being put to death indeed in the flesh,

    but enlivened in the spirit, 

    19:In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

    Again: AS GOD,  A PERFECT PARADOX!

    THUS WITH HIS LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT,

    HE SIMPLY RAISED HIMSELF UP!

    HE DID IT NOT FOR HIM THOUGH, AS HE WAS ALREADY GLORIFIED

    GODMAN!

    AND FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING IN GOD’S WORK, IT IS HIS SPIRIT WHICH GIVES LIFE TO ALL HIS WORK EVEN AS FLESH IN “THE WORD” MADE FLESH JESUS.

    HE DID IT FOR THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, IN ORDER FOR THE HUMAN RACE TO BECOME SPIRIT AND RETURN BACK TO THE FATHER!

    ALL AUTHENTIC BACK TO LIFE ON HIS RESURRECTION

    IN HIS EMBODIMENT! 

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH!

    THE SON OF MAN!

    A TASK SATAN TOOK FOR GRANTED THAT COULD NEVER OCCUR!

    BY WHICH TASK SATAN WAS ERADICATED ON THE CROSS, THROUGH DEATH, SUPPOSED HIS ASSET! 

    NOW, JESUS ON HIS RESURRECTION, HUMANITY ALL  AUTHENTIC IN HIM

    WAS NOT YET PERFECT AS ONLY GOD IS PERFECT!

    Well hinted out by Jesus’ own words:

    DO NOT TOUCH ME,

    FOR I AM NOT YET ASCENDED TO  (IN THE GLORY OF) MY FATHER…

    HENCE; ONE MORE THING REMAINED TO BE FULFILLED, THAT SAME EVENING, AND THAT IS,

    THAT THIS SON OF MAN, THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE

    ALL AUTHENTIC IN JESUS’ BODY,  INTEGRATES WITH

    THE HOLY GHOST IN THE GLORY OF JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN

    TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU

    AND BECOMES

    ONE GLORIFIED BODY

    GOD OF ALL FLESH! Je.32:27

    HUMANITY ALL PERFECT CHILDREN OF GOD, TWO IN ONE FLESH IN

    JESUS CHRIST.

    EVENTUALLY ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD,

    GOD WOULD BE ALL IN ALL. 

    THE FATHER IN THE SON AND THE SON IN THE FATHER.

    TWO KINGDOMS IN ONE,

    THE KINGDOM OF GOD, SPIRITS, AD INTRA,  AND

    THE KINGDOM OF  HEAVEN, FLESH, AD EXTRA ALL IN THE SON, 

    JESUS CHRIST!

    John 10:30 I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE!

    John 17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;

    and I am glorified in them. 

    You: Trust me Carmel you haven’t a clue what you are saying,  you have fallen for the biggest “LIE” ever fostered on humanity.  In fact you are a minister of that “LIE”  yourself, the “LIE” mentioned in,  2ths2,   You have turned the “IMAGE” of the only man “Jesus “,  who now sits in the temple of GOD, INTO YOUR GOD and you worship him as such, commuting “IDOLATRY “. You have made the “image” of the “man” Jesus, into “a-man of sin”  ,  by saying he is a God which breakers the First commandment of God,  “you shall have “NO OTHER GOD BESIDE ME”

    ME; JESUS IS NOT JUST GOD, BUT EVEN SUPERIOR TO GOD AS HE IS THE ONLY

    GODMAN!

    THE MIGHTY GOD ISAIAH 9:6

    FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER!

    That’s what is sad to me,  SATAN has sold you a package of Lies , and you have taken it hook line and sinker, and you will pay the price, except you REPENT!

     

    Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

      

    #943603
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Carmel,

    You: “ME; JESUS IS NOT JUST GOD, BUT EVEN SUPERIOR TO GOD AS HE IS THE ONLY
    GODMAN!”

    Jesus is superior to the Almighty God!?!?!!? What heresy to you believe?!?!? No wonder you won’t state your faith!

    WOW!!!!

    #943604
    carmel
    Participant

    HI Desiretruth,

    You: Jesus is superior to

    the Almighty God!?!?!!?

    Me: JESUS IS NOT JUST

    GOD

    BUT EVEN SUPERIOR TO GOD

    AS HE IS THE ONLY

    GODMAN!

    THE MIGHTY GOD! ISAIAH 9:6

    FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER!

    Philippians 2:8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.

     9For which cause God also hath exalted him,

    and hath given him a name which is above

    ALL NAMES:

     10 That in the name of Jesus

    every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: 11And that every tongue should confess

    that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

    Isaiah 45:13 I have raised him up to justice,

    and I will direct all his ways:

    he shall build MY CITY

    WHAT CITY?

    GODMAN!

    and let go my captives,

    WHAT CAPTIVES?

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE ON HIS RESURRECTION!

    not for ransom, nor for presents, saith the Lord the God of hosts.

    BUT FOR GOD THE FATHER!

    14Thus saith the Lord: The labour of Egypt, and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and of Sabaim, men of stature shall come over to thee,

    and shall be thine:

    they shall walk after thee, they shall go bound with manacles:

    and they shall worship thee,

    and shall make supplication to thee:

    only in thee is God,

    and there is no God besides thee.

    15Verily thou art a hidden God,

    the God of Israel the saviour.

    16They are all confounded and ashamed:

    the forgers of errors are gone together into confusion.

     

    Colossians 2:2 That their hearts may be comforted, being instructed in charity, and unto all riches of fulness of understanding,

    unto the knowledge of the mystery of

    God the Father and of Christ Jesus:

     

    Ephesians:3:14 For this cause I bow my knees to

    THE FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ, 

    15Of whom all paternity in heaven and earth is named, 16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened by his Spirit with might unto the inward man,

     17That Christ may dwell by faith in your hearts;

    that being rooted and founded in charity, 

    18You may be able to comprehend,

    with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and height, and depth: 

    19To know also the charity of Christ,

    WHICH SHALL SURPASSETH ALL KNOWLEDGE,

    that you may be filled unto all the

    FULNESS OF GOD.

    John 7:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;

    and I am glorified in them.

    GODMAN JESUS CHRIST

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943605
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Carmel,

    This is stunning to me, this is the second time you have sited Isa 9:6; did you read what I wrote about that and how it isn’t a reference to Jesus? If you read the chapter beginning in verse 1, how exactly can you come to the conclusion that it’s reference to Jesus? Better yet start in chapter 7 and read to the end of 9 to put the entire context of 9:6 into perspective. Never mind how the tenses where changed from a past tense to a future tense…look up the Hebrew for your confirmation!

    No where in scripture is the term “godman” in reference to Jesus; this is your beliefs creation. Stop using it! It’s not a real thing.

    “Godman” is a city that will be built?!?! Are you kidding?!?! This is a clear reference to the building of Jerusalem. Those held captive are not the “human race”, they’re the Israelite’s! You do realize they are in captivity when Isaiah wrote this book? Please start in chapter 41 and read through 55 to put all this into perspective (it will fix your understanding of 42 AND 53). Stop cherry picking a verse here and there to support your religion! Context of scripture is important, especially if you are going to start citing old testament. Your religion is a lie, run from it!

    #943607
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny Dobbs…..I said….. “MY SAVIOR AND JESUS’ SAVIOR IS GOD THE FATHER” , NONE OTHER.

    You said. …Me: And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
    1 John 4:14

    me……That’s right, just as Moses was sent by God to save Israel, but who actually saved them was it Moses or God the Father ?

    Jesus-was indeed “sent” to be a savior of the world by God the father, by showing us how to have a “right relationship with God the Father, And it is the “exact” same as his is.  So in that “sense” he was a savior .  Because he demonstrated to all “HOW”  TO HAVE THAT RELATIONSHIP, SO WE CAN BE SAVED.  Get it?

    peace and love to you and yours Danny……….gene

     

    #943608
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……Interesting how you leave out parts of scriptures that show your corrupt thinking .
    here is what scripture actually says…….Phil 2:11……”And that every tongue “should” confess that Jesus Christ is lord, to the “GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER”.

    NOTICE, it doesn’t say to the glory of Jesus, as you falsely present it, but to the glory of “GOD THE FATHER”    

    Carmel you have taken ‘the man” Jesus, and  say he is your God, and worship him as even Greater them God the Father. You are the exact fulfillment of what the apostle Paul was saying would happen in the church….2ths2.   SAD!

    Peace and love to you and yours ……..gene

     

    #943611
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    First and foremost,

    I AM NOT EXPECTING ANYONE WOULD AGREE WITH MY PREACHING.

    I AM NOT HERE TO PLEASE MEN IN FLESH AND BLOOD!

    BUT THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH!

    THUS, MY PERSPECTIVES ARE TOTALLY SPIRITUAL!

    You: “Godman” is a city that will be built?!?!

    Johnn19:30 Jesus therefore, when he had taken the vinegar, said:

    It is consummated.

    And bowing his head, he gave up the ghost.

     

    CONSUMATED WHAT?

    THE NEW JERUSALEM! 

    THE BRIDE!

    GODMEN!!!!

    Me: IT IS ALREADY BUILT!

    You: Are you kidding?!?!

    This is a clear reference to

    the building of Jerusalem.

    Matthew 23:37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee,

    how often would I have gathered together thy children,

    as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings,

    and thou wouldest not? 

    38Behold, your house shall be left to you, desolate.

    WHICH HOUSE?

    THE SOUL!

    THE LIFE OF THE BODY: JESUS!

    LUCIFER’S SOUL!

    THE LOST SHEEP! Isaiah 48:19

    John 2:16 And to them that sold doves he said:

    Take these things hence,

    and make not the house of my Father a house of traffic. 

    17 And his disciples remembered, that it was written:

    The zeal of thy HOUSE hath eaten me up.

    WHAT IS JESUS REFERRING TO?

    THE SOUL!

    WHAT ALL THOSE WHO WERE SELLING IN THE TEMPLE SPIRITUALLY ARE?

    DEMONS IN HUMAN’ SOULS!

    NOW JESUS ERADICATED SATAN AND HIS DEMONS FROM ALL SOULS, NO MATTER WHAT AND WHO, AND HE BECAME THE SOLE PROPRIETOR IN HUMANS IN FLESH AND BLOOD, SATANIC,

    FORGIVE THEM, FATHER, AS THEY NO NOT WHAT THEY DO!

    AT LEAST TILL PENTECOST!

    PURIFIED BY HIS OWN BLOOD!

    Luke 17:20-37

    Cont.

    Matthew 23:39For I say to you, you shall not see me henceforth till you say:

    Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

    Answer DT. TO WHOM, SPIRITUALLY, JESUS IS REFERRING?

    JERUSALEM SPIRITUALLY IS A REFERENCE TO

    THE HUMAN BODY!

    THE SON OF MAN!

    JESUS’BODY

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH!

    GLORIFIED ON THE CROSS ON HIS DEATH!

    JESUS’SPIRITUALIZED BODY!

    ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST IN

    JESUS CHRIST!

    GODMAN! John13:31-32, John17:1

    1Peter 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust:

    that he might offer us to God,

    being put to death indeed in the flesh,

    but enlivened in the spirit, 

    THE HUMAN BODY IS THE CITY IN WHICH GOD THE FATHER WOULD BE 

    ALL IN ALL ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD!

    ORIGINALLY JESUS’ PRE-EXISTENCE BEFORE CREATION STARTED AS

    SON OF MAN! 

    THE VERY FIRST EVER JERUSALEM!

    THE ONLY PHYSICAL EMBODIMENT OF GOD!

    THE ONLY IMAGE AND SHAPE OF GOD!

    THE MASTERPIECE OF GOD! Ephesians 2:10

    John1:1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,

    and the Word was God.

    GODMAN!

    “THE BEGINNING”

    John 8: 25 They said therefore to him:

    Who art thou? Jesus said to them:

    The beginning,

    who also speak unto you. 

     

    Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church,

    who is the beginning,

    the firstborn from the dead;

    that in all things he may hold the PRIMACY:

    That’s more than enough of JERUSALEM!

    You: Those held captive are not the “human race”,

    they’re the Israelite’s!

    Now to the word:

    ISRAEL!

    THE ABOVE NAME IS  SPIRITUAL GIVEN BY GOD???

    JACOB IS NOT ISRAEL AS SUCH!

    SPIRITUALLY, ISRAEL IS A REFERENCE TO LUCIFER!

    THE LOST SHEEP!

    JACOB IS THE BEGINNING OF THE NATION OF ISRAEL! 

    NOW THE BEGINNING, OF ALL GOD’S BEGINNINGS IS

    JESUS!

    HENCE, ISRAEL, “Let God Prevail,”

    IS A REFERENCE TO JESUS AS A SPIRIT IN JACOB!

    Romans 9:13 As it is written:

    Jacob I have loved,

    but Esau I have hated.

    IN ORDER FOR JESUS TO MAINTAIN HIS PRIMACY!

    JESUS IS THE TRUE ISRAEL!

    MORE TO COME!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943614
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: me……That’s right, just as Moses was sent by God to save Israel, but who actually saved them was it Moses or God the Father?

     

    2 Corinthians 6:5 I will therefore admonish you, though ye once knew all things,

    that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt,

    did afterwards destroy them that believed not:

     

    1Corinthians 10:4And did all eat the same spiritual food, 4And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them,

    and the rock was Christ.) 

    You: Jesus-was indeed “sent” to be a savior of the world by God the father, by showing us how to have a “right relationship with God the Father, And it is the “exact” same as his is.  So in that “sense” he was a savior .  Because he demonstrated to all “HOW”  TO HAVE THAT RELATIONSHIP, SO WE CAN BE SAVED.  Get it?

    The thing is Gene, THAT YOU NEVER GET IT! I MEAN

    THE TRUTH!

    NO JESUS NO GOD

    NO GOD NO JESUS!

    John15:5 I am the vine;

    you the branches:

    he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:

    for without me you can do nothing.

     

    POOR BRANCH!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943615
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel , you said

    2 Corinthians 6:5 I will therefore admonish you, though ye once knew all things,

    that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt,
    did afterwards destroy them that believed not:

     

    1Corinthians 10:4And did all eat the same spiritual food, 4And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them,

    and the rock was Christ.)

    Carmel. 1 Cor 6:5 doesn’t say that, Jude 1:4 is what you are referring to,  Let me quote it all correctly  for you ok?
    Jude 1:4-5…….”For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation ungodly men, turning the grace of our “GOD” into lasciviousness, and denying the “ONLY” LORD GOD,  “and”, the lord Jesus Christ “. Verse 5,  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though you once knew this, how that the Lord (GOD) , having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 

    As far as the rock that followed them in the wilderness goes, it was not “Jesus Christ”   But the Christo’s or “anointing spirit”,  of God,   Not the anointed “man Jesus” as you falsely preach.

    peace and love to you and yours Carmel………gene

    #943619
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Carmel,

    You referenced Isa 43 and say it points to Jesus, the “New Jerusalem”, and the captive human race; this is false. Please read the entire chapter starting in verse 1. What does “anointed one” mean and who is this “anointed one” mentioned? “Anointed one” in Hebrew is “mashiach” and the Greek translates it to “messiah.” So who is this “messiah” in verse 1; it’s King Cyrus who will later give permission to Nehemiah to rebuild the city of Jerusalem and the temple. Isaiah is prophesying future events that will take place for the Jewish people. It has nothing to do with Jesus, a “New Jerusalem”, or the “human race being captive.” So for you to claim verse 13 (a single passage in the chapter) says what you believe it says doesn’t add up when put into context with the rest of the chapter. This is a flagrant misinterpretation of scripture.

    Let’s go back to a previous statement, you said Jesus was superior to God. This makes no sense, in Heb 2:7 Jesus is made lower than angels; yet is equal to or now greater than God?!?! Explain how the “son” can ever be greater than the “father”. Use your words to explain it, not a bunch of verses; won’t read them as there are no verses that ever state any son is ever greater than his father – spiritual or otherwise. Give me YOUR explanation.

    Israel means “one who struggles with God” a name given to Jacob because he struggled with God and with men and prevailed. Many will claim the one Jacob was wrestling is Jesus and then go on to say Jesus preexisted, this is a false teaching created by man. How do I know, because scripture tells me. Hosea 12:3,4: In the womb he (Jacob) took his brother (Esau) by the heel (Gen 25:26), And in his maturity he contended with God. Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed This isn’t Jesus, but an angel, a representative of God.

    Knowing you view the scripture from a “totally spiritual” perspective makes sense why there is confusion in what you write. You are coming from a “spiritual” perspective and others are understanding the words as they are written. If you only see the “spiritual” as you read and study scripture, you will miss everything that is being conveyed and will be lost in your understanding. Not everything written within scripture has to have a “spiritual” twist to it; most of the time the words mean what the words are saying, no need to read between the lines.

    One final thought, what is the difference between a preacher and a teacher? A preacher tells everyone what they know and are the authority on the subject they preach; a teacher freely shares their knowledge so the hearer can be just as knowledgeable – we call it learning.

    #943620
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth…….Well said, good post, I wish Carmel and Berean, would start taking these things to heart.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth……….gene

    #943621
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth…….Well said, good post, I wish Carmel and Berean, would start taking these things to heart.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth……….gene

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