John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,041 through 24,060 (of 26,008 total)
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  • #943300
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Proclaimer,

    What is the Jewish understanding of what it means to come  “from heaven”?

    Answer that, and you may get an “amen.”

    Jesus did not preexist!

    #943301
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    You: “IS JESUS NOT IN A CERTAIN SENSE “THE FATHER”

    NO!!

    I thought Jesus was the archangel Micheal in the old testament…would that then make it the quadinitry. I’m confused!

    #943302
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @desiretruth
    One man came from earth and the second man came from heaven.

    So if Jesus didn’t come from heaven, then Adam didn’t come from earth?

    You have to be consistent.

    So, if coming from heaven doesn’t mean coming from heaven, then coming from earth doesn’t mean coming from earth?

    And, can we assume that the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down from heaven means it will not come from heaven?

    Further, when fire to comes down from heaven to earth in front of people, where is the fire really coming from?

    Finally, if Jesus returns by coming from heaven to earth with myriads of holy ones, is he and the angels already here on earth and just appear instead? Or will they indeed be coming from above?

    In conclusion, if the understanding of the Jews who rejected and continue to reject the messiah is the standard for understanding scripture, then God helps us all. It means that Jesus is not the Christ for a start and salvation is not found under Jesus Christ. But as it is written, the least in the kingdom of God is greater than all the Jews under the Old Testament, even John the Baptist.

    “Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.”

    #943303
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Also, if he didn’t descend, then he also didn’t ascend?

    No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

    #943304
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Proclaimer,

    In all your have written, you still haven’t said what come “from heaven” means from a Jewish perspective.

    To say the “Jews rejected” Christ is a misnomer because you need to read the book of Acts. 3000 at Pentecost.

    So what does is it mean to “descend from Heaven”? Is it to physically or in the mind of God?

    #943305
    Berean
    Participant

    @ DesireTruth

    You

    So what does is it mean to “descend from Heaven”? Is it to physically or in the mind of God?

    Me

    Explain your position biblically and we will see later.

    #943306
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    So is Christ decent from heaven the same as manna? Both “came down” from heaven.

    Is Jesus truly the archangel Micheal? Can you scripturally show where in the old testament this is stated?

    #943307
    Berean
    Participant

    @ désire Truth

    It is up to you to explain yourself on the subject of Christ descended from heaven or not.

    #943308
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    Berean,

    How am I to explain myself when you have not answered the question? You demand answers to your questions; where are my answers? My response/explanation is dependent upon an answer. What is the Jewish understanding of coming from heaven and is Jesus coming from heaven the same as manna coming from heaven? It’s a simple question, stop deflecting!

    What about the archangel and the quadinity – God, Holy Spirit, Jesus, and Michael? Perplexing isn’t it? Is what you believe truth?

    #943309
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Continue from the post#943288

    You:  telling us to pray in this way,  “our father, (both his and ours) , who is in heaven, Holy be “YOUR” name,  “YOUR KINGDOM”  COME,  “YOUR” Will be done, on earth as it is done in heaven.  …….

    Again Gene, WHERE IS THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH?

    DEFINITELY NOT IN YOU!WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    LET’S READ THE RESPECTIVE SCRIPTURE:

    Matthew 6:9 Thus therefore shall you pray:

    What does the above introduction tell you, Gene?

    It clearly tells you that Jesus is MORE TEACHING HOW TO PRAY,

    THAN HE HIMSELF IS PRAYING!

    JESUS WHENEVER HE PRAYED MOSTLY WENT ALL BY HIMSELF!

    Did you ever asked a simple question WHY DID JESUS TEACH HOW TO PRAY TO THE FATHER?

    IT WOULD BE QUITE INTERESTING IF YOU WERE TO FIND A SCRIPTURE FROM THE OT. WHERE THE ORDINARY JEWS,  WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE PROPHETS EVER CALLED  GOD THEIR FATHER.

    I JUST WANT TO REMIND YOU THAT THE JEWS WERE TERRORIZED BY THE FATHER, NEVER MIND LOVE HIM AND CALL HIM AS SUCH.

    AFTER ALL, YOU SAID THAT IF ANYTHING IS SAID AND IS NOT IN LINE WITH THE OT. IT WOULD BE A LIE.

    GO AHEAD AND FIND THIS SCRIPTURE PLEASE!

    NOW Gene let’s see why it was vital for Jesus to teach HUMANS HOW TO PRAY!

    FROM THAT MOMENT OF JESUS’ DEATH ONWARD

    THE HUMAN RACE, FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME,  BECAME THE PROPERTY OF

    A JUSTIFIED  AND APPROPRIATE GOD AND FATHER, ATTENTION Gene:

    IN FLESH TO PRAY TO, FOR THE SAKE OF  GOD THE FATHER AS THE FATHER IS SPIRIT AND AS A SPIRIT HE WAS REJECTED BY OUR FIRST EVER PARENTS IN THE GARDEN!

    THERE WAS ONLY ONE WAY FOR GOD THE FATHER TO HEAR HUMANS!

    THROUGH HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON!

    JESUS! 

    THUS GOD IS JUST, AND HE RESPECTED OUR PARENTS  AND THEIR FREE WILL. CONSEQUENTLY, HE SENT THEM OUT OF HIS SPIRITUAL GARDEN IN ORDER TO LIVE IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD, CURSED, AND SATANIC FROM THAT MOMENT ON, WITH, UNAWARE OF, THEIR JUSTIFIED FATHER, SATAN, John8:44, TILL THE REDEEMER EVENTUALLY COMES.

    BY WHOM THE HUMAN RACE WOULD BE HEARD BY GOD THE FATHER! Well clear in

    John 14:1 LET not your heart be troubled.

    You believe in God, believe also in me. 

    13 Because I go to the Father:

     and whatsoever you shall ask the Father IN MY NAME,

    that will I do:

     that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

     14If you shall ask me anything IN MY NAME.

    that I will do.

    READ IT AGAIN Gene, and accept the pure truth!

    whatsoever you shall ask the Father

     IN MY NAME,

    NOW TO THE NEXT VITAL ONE:

    that will I do:

    NOT THE FATHER Mr.Gene!

    THE FATHER IS IN HIS LONGEST REST!

    KEEP ON READING!

     that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

    ATTENTION Gene:

     14If you shall ask me anything

    IN MY NAME.

    that I will do.

    ALWAYS JESUS PERFORMS GOD’S WORK!

    HE MUST REIGN! Well clear in

    1Corinithians 15:25 For he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 

    I repeat: In the above  Gene, Jesus, THE SON OF MAN,

    MADE IT CLEAR THAT WE EITHER PRAY DIRECTLY TO HIM, OR  IF WE PRAY TO THE FATHER WE MUST PRAY

    IN THE NAME OF JESUS,

    HIS GENUINE AND ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, OE ELSE THE FATHER WILL

    IGNORES US!

    JESUS, FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME  ON EARTH  AS I SAID ABOVE,  WAS NOT ONLY JUST TEACHING BUT MORE INTRODUCING,

    THE SPIRITUAL ASPECT AND PROCESS OF GOD’S KINGDOM ON EARTH, FOR THE SAKE OF THE FATHER.

    A PROCESS THAT IS INEXISTENCE EVEN TODAY, NEVER MIND IN JESUS’ TIME. AS I ALSO SAID,

    GOD IS SPIRIT, AND ONE MUST ADORE AND PRAY TO GOD

    IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH, WHICH MEANS 

    IN SPIRIT, THE FATHER, AND PHYSICALLY IN JESUS AS TRUTH!

    ONLY JESUS  PHYSICALLY MANIFESTED GOD ON EARTH AS TRUTH, THE FATHER ON HIS OWN WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO ESTABLISH HIMSELF AS

    THE TRUE TANGIBLE GOD!

    THE ONLY WAY TO BE CONSIDERED AND ACCEPTED

     AS TRUTH

     GOD  ACHIEVED THIS ONLY AS A HUMAN IN JESUS! HIS OWN SUBSTANCE! Heberews1:3 Well clear also in:

    1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come:

    and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God,

    and maybe in his true Son.
    This is the true God and life eternal.
    John 17:25 Just Father, the world hath not known thee;

    but I have known thee:… 

     THE WORLD NEVER AT ANYTIME KNEW THE TRUE GOD,

    EXCEPT IN JESUS!

    Now reflect on this piece of scripture hereunder:

    John 5:15 The man went his way, and told the Jews

    , that it was Jesus who had made him whole.

    THE MAN NEVER MENTIONED GOD AT ALL!

    HE DECLARED THAT JESUS MADE HIM WHOLE, 

    OK?

    JESUS IS THE TRUTH

    JESUS MANIFESTED THE TRUTH

    FOR THE SAKE OF THE FATHER ON THIS PLANET!

    NO JESUS NO GOD 

    NO GOD NO JESUS!

    I must elaborate for the sake of TRUTH!

    Now Jesus in our case PERFORMED THE WAY, HOW AS HUMANS and believers in JESUS,  WE SHOULD PRAY TO GOD, and commenced with the title “OUR FATHER” The Jews of Jesus’s day were hesitant to call God their Father, and even angry at Jesus for doing so. Even his own disciples were puzzled by his teaching. On the other hand, Jesus, purposely sent by the Father, introduced and proclaimed the title of Father of the human race to God throughout His life on earth from the age of twelve by His well-known words: …..I MUST BE AT MY FATHER’S BUSINESS! By which words He puzzled also His supposed parents.

    In the above prayer, Jesus taught his followers to do the same. But what is the truth behind this title of Father in relation to the human race by Jesus accredited to God?

    THAT IN THE NEXT POST

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943314
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel.  You said…….Now reflect on this piece of scripture hereunder:

    John 5:15 The man went his way, and told the Jews

    , that it was Jesus who had made him whole.
    THE MAN NEVER MENTIONED GOD AT ALL!

    HE DECLARED THAT JESUS MADE HIM WHOLE,

    OK

    Me…..But the “man” Jesus said, (not me)……“the Son of man can do “NOTHING” of  himself ” 

    Seems Jesus has a complete different view than you do about who is doing the work,  even saying this …..”the Father in me, “HE DOES THE WORK”,  BUT then you really don’t believe What Jesus “truly” said, do you,  but believe what a unconverted human, who was heals by GOD THE FATHER , WORKING IN AND THROUGH the “man” Jesus,  exactly as HE did through MOSES. 

    Peace and love to you and yours Carmel………gene

    #943316
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi Berean,

    You: Hi Carmel

    The spirit and soul of man ARE NOT IMMORTAL…The soul that sinneth, it shall die.( The soul that sinneth, it shall die.(Eze.18:20)

    GOD ALONE IS IMMORTAL AND HE WILL GIVE IMMORTALITY TO THOSE WHO HAVE PURIFIED THEIR SOUL BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.

    Me: Scriptures:

    Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. for in what day soever thou shalt eat of it,

    thou shalt die the death.

     

    Luke 9:6 And Jesus said to him:

     Let the dead bury their dead:

     but go thou, and preach the kingdom of God.

     

    Matthew 10:28 And fear ye not them that kill the body,

    and are not able to kill the soul:

    but rather fear him that can DESTROY

    both soul and body in HELL.

    Berean, now it is your task to analyze the above scriptures and tell us what in actual fact the word “DEATH” AND ITS RELATED WORDS MEAN!

    Then we would be more in a position to understand the truth!

    and the truth will set you FREE!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943317
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi to all

    Here is the Daily Devotional

     

    TERESITA FROM NUN TO PRAYER WARRIOR, PART 2 

     

    After being dismissed from her convent, Teresita was extremely depressed. “I could not stop the tears. I felt so alone.” With only a little pocket money she boarded a ship and left, feeling like life was not worth living. She eventually moved to Canada to help her sister and then moved to New York.

    While working in the United States as a night nurse in a hospital, she continued to attend church nearby. She participated in holy mass, in the stations of the cross, prayed through the rosary, and made weekly confessions. One day, the head nurse on her floor—who was a Sabbath-keeper—asked her, “Teresita, why don’t you worship God on the Sabbath?”

    “What is the Sabbath?” she asked him. Then he handed her an invitation to a series of meetings being held by Pastor Doug Batchelor in mid-town Manhattan called Millennium of Prophecy.

    On the fifth night of the series she began to attend the meetings with her sister. When Pastor Doug spoke on the antichrist, Teresita was shocked, but earnestly prayed for enlightenment.

    She completed the series with her sister and decided to be baptized. Her sister told her, “You’ve been fooled. You’ve always been a Catholic. You will die a Catholic.” With the pressure of her family on one side and the desire to follow the Bible on the other, Teresita began to study more deeply. About one month after the Millennium of Prophecy series concluded, she was baptized into the Sabbath-keeping church where her nursing supervisor attended.

    Since her new life in Christ, Teresita has become a prayer warrior and has also participated in several mission trips.

    Teresita shares, “I will forever be grateful to Amazing Facts for my conversion. God used Pastor Batchelor to remove the scales from my eyes so that I could see the pure gospel. I can still remember being buried in the waters of baptism, after the series, and taking my first breath upon coming up out of the pool. I said to myself, ‘I am rising as a new creature in Jesus Christ!’”

    Teresita always wanted to serve God. Though she spent 21 years looking for peace through acts of penance, she now walks in freedom that comes only through the blood of Christ.

    Reflect: When have you last felt renewed by the Holy Spirit? Is there something hindering you from God’s blessing on your life? Daily invite the Spirit to dwell in you.

    KEY BIBLE TEXTS
    Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17 

    From Amazing facts

    God bless

    #943318
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Carmel

    There are people who are spiritually dead but physically alive.

    Now When someone dies, their whole being dies. There is not a part of the person that stays alive and migrates either to heaven or to hell.

    Matthew 10:28 simply tells us that God will give the wages (which is the second death, the lake of fire and brimstone) to those who are permanently lost AFTER THE LAST JUDGMENT.
    The body and soul of these people will definitely perish.

    More below, hope this helps

     

     

    THOUGHTS ON Matthew 10:28 AND Luke 12:4, 5
    “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10:28. TFC 5.1

    “And I say unto you My friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him.” Luke 12:4, 5. TFC 5.2

    1. These texts are the record, by different writers, of the same language of the Saviour. The first one is often quoted by those who teach the immortality of the soul and its conscious existence in death. In Matthew’s version of the Saviour’s words, the soul is indeed made very prominent; but in that of Luke, it is not mentioned. Yet the language of the one version is the same substance as that of the other. TFC 5.3

    2. Thus, while Matthew represents the Saviour as saying, “Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul,” Luke expresses the idea thus: “Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more they can do.” And Matthew adds, “Fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Luke gives the same warning, thus: “Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell.” TFC 5.4

    3. Thus it is seen that our Lord recognizes the fact plainly expressed elsewhere, that there are two deaths. The first death, which is the common lot of mankind, is thus spoken of by Paul: “It is appointed unto men once to die.” Hebrews 9:27. The second death is the portion only of the wicked. “He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.” Revelation 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8. The Saviour bids us not to fear those who can inflict only the first of these deaths; but He warns us to fear Him who alone is able to kill with the second death. TFC 5.5

    4. The place in which the terrible punishment here set forth is inflicted, is called hell. This word is found in the English Testament twenty-three times. But in the Greek Testament there are three different words, hades, gehenna and tartarus, signifying different places, all rendered by the one English word, “hell.” Thus, hades is used eleven times in the original, and is rendered “hell” ten times and “grave” once. The following are the places of its occurrence, the italicized word in each case being the translation of hades: TFC 5.6

    Matthew 11:23. Shalt be brought down to hell. TFC 6.1

    16:18. The gates of hell shall not prevail. TFC 6.2

    Luke 10:15. Shalt be thrust down to hell. TFC 6.3

    16:23. In hell he lift up his eyes. TFC 6.4

    Acts 2:27. Wilt not leave my soul in hell. TFC 6.5

    2:31. His soul was not left in hell. TFC 6.6

    1 Corinthians 15:55. O grave, where is thy victory? TFC 6.7

    Revelation 1:18. Have the keys of hell and of death. TFC 6.8

    6:8. Was death, and hell followed. TFC 6.9

    20:13. Death and hell delivered up the dead. TFC 6.10

    20:14. Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. TFC 6.11

    Gehenna is found in the following places: TFC 6.12

    Matthew 5:22. Shall be in danger of hell fire. TFC 6.13

    5:29. Whole body should be cast into hell. TFC 6.14

    5:30. Whole body should be cast into hell. TFC 6.15

    10:28. Destroy both soul and body in hell. TFC 6.16

    18:9. Having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. TFC 6.17

    23:15. More the child of hell than yourselves. TFC 6.18

    23:33. How can ye escape the damnation of hell. TFC 6.19

    Mark 9:43. Having two hands to go into hell. TFC 6.20

    9:45. Having two feet to be cast into hell. TFC 6.21

    9:47. Having two eyes to be cast into hell. TFC 6.22

    Luke 12:5. Hath power to cast into hell TFC 6.23

    James 3:6. It is set on fire of hell. TFC 6.24

    Tartarus is used only in the following text: “God spared no the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell.” 2 Peter 2:4. TFC 6.25

    Thus hades is seen to be the place of the dead, whether righteous or wicked; the place into which they are introduced by death, and from which they are delivered by the resurrection. Those who are in hades are said to be dead. Revelation 20:13. Once, in the English Testament, hades is rendered “grave.” 1 Corinthians 15:55. Gehenna, on the contrary, is the place where the wicked are to be cast alive with all their members, and to be destroyed soul and body. It is the lake of fire in which the wicked dead are to be punished after their resurrection. Revelation 20:13-15. Tartarus is the place into which the evil angels were cast after their rebellion. These three places, therefore, though rendered by the one English word “hell,” are not to be confounded with one another. TFC 6.26

    5. It is claimed that the Saviour, in giving the warning recorded in Matthew 10:28 and Luke 12:4, 5, taught the continued existence of the soul in death. But it is worthy of notice that in each of these texts He utters no warning concerning the punishment of the soul in hades, the place or state of the dead. His warning relates to that which shall be inflicted upon “soul and body” together in gehenna. TFC 7.1

    6. That He should speak nothing of the punishment of the soul in its disembodied state in hades, if such punishment really takes place, is very remarkable; for here, more than anywhere else in the Bible, is there evidence of the continued existence of the soul while the body is under the power of death. Yet while expressly stating the terrible fate of the lost, and that, too, in such connection as would especially call out the fact, if it were a fact, that the souls of the wicked exist in a place of dreadful suffering, between death and the resurrection, the Saviour says not one word concerning the sufferings of the soul in its disembodied state, but confines His warning to that which shall be inflicted upon “both soul and body in hell,” that is, in gehenna, thus showing that the retribution against which He warns us comes after the resurrection, and not before. TFC 7.2

    7. Our Lord means to point out precisely the danger to which the ungodly are exposed. When, therefore, He says “Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into gehenna,” He means to teach that God will cast the wicked into gehenna. And when Matthew, expressing the same warning in different words, makes the Saviour say, “Fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna,” the fact set forth is that such will be the fate of the lost. TFC 7.3

    8. “Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into gehenna.” As the wicked are to be cast into gehenna alive, and in possession of all their bodily members (see the list of passages in this tract where gehenna is used), it follows that He who can thus cast them there, after they have once been killed, is God alone; for to do this, He must raise them from the dead. The resurrection to damnation must precede the damnation of gehenna. Compare John 5:28, 29 with Matthew 23:33. TFC 8.1

    #943319
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You: Hi Carmel

    There are people who are spiritually dead but physically alive.

    Now When someone dies, their whole being dies. There is not a part of the person that stays alive and migrates either to heaven or to hell. 

    Me: Berean, WITH EVERY RESPECT TO YOU,

    I’m afraid you have a very wrong UNDERSTANDING  both regarding the SOUL and

    Likewise also regarding the HUMAN FLESH BODY!

    Humans are dual entities!

    THE GOOD AND THE EVIL!

    The body AS SUBSTANCE has nothing to do with the soul.

    THE SOUL,  A TYPE OF INTERMEDIATE SPIRIT, BELONGS TO GOD, AND ENDS UP IN FRONT OF JESUS  TO BE JUDGED!

    WHILE THE FLESH BELONGS TO SATAN/OF THE WORLD!

    THE FACT THAT ITS ORIGIN IS FROM HELL FIRE and ENDS UP ON EARTH AS DUST!

    Lets start with the SOUL.

    SCRIPTURES:

    Ezekiel 18:4 Behold all souls are mine:

    as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine:

    In the above THE SOUL OF THE FATHER IS A CLEAR REFERENCE TO 

    THE HOLY GHOST, GOD’S SOUL! Isaiah 42:1

    While the SOUL OF THE SON IS A CLEAR REFERENCE TO

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS, THE SON OF MAN! Isaiah 42:1

    the soul that sinneth, the same shall die.

    Reflect please: AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL! GOD SAID

    ALL SOULS ARE MINE!

    NOW GOD IS ETERNAL AND ALL HIS ATTRIBUTES AND TASKS ARE ALSO ETERNAL! EVEN WHEN HE SAID:

    the soul that sinneth, the same shall die.

    Berean the above death is a type of death that YOU DON’T KNOW ABOUT! I BELIEVE!

    THE ABOVE DEATH IS A REFERENCE TO THE SPIRITS/SOULS ATTRIBUTED TO GOD AD INTRA, OF THE DEITY,

    IN THE PROCESS ATTRIBUTED TO CREATION AD EXTRA OUTSIDE THE DEITY!

    IN SHORT “THE WORD”MADE FLESH, ETERNAL LIFE, THE SON OF MAN,

    JESUS AS A SPIRIT, and THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND CREATURES! Attention please:

    WHO WAS SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD. Rev13:8 

    OK? Berean, JESUS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD,  WAS SLAIN……..BUT IN ACTUAL FACT HE WAS NOT AS SUCH IN THE WAY WE UNDERSTAND WITH DEATH!

    OTHERWISE, GOD WOULD HAVE MADE A TYPE OF SUICIDE!

     THUS, I REPEAT, WHEN IN THE ABOVE HE SAYS SHALL DIE, IN ACTUAL FACT IT IS NOT THE SAME DEATH AS THE FLESH DIES ON EARTH!

    IT IS COMMON SENSE! GOD AND HIS ATTRIBUTES ARE OPPOSITE TO OURS SINCE WE SINNED AND REJECTED GOD’S WILL.

    THE FLESH OF EARTH BECOMES DUST AND REMAINS ON EARTH!

    THE SOULS OF HEAVEN/GOD, REMAIN AS THEY ARE, SPIRITS  AND RETURN TO THE SPIRITUAL REALM, BUT

    NOT FUNCTIONAL IN A MYSTERIOUS WAY! WHY?

    FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT GOD WILL REMOVE HIS SPIRIT FROM WITHIN THE SOUL! PRECISELY WHEN A PERSON DIES! NOW THE SOUL, BEFORE JESUS’REDEMPTION ENDED UP IN A PLACE RELATED TO

    IT’S MORAL LIFE WITHIN THE FLESH ON EARTH!

     

    NOW TO THE FLESH IN THE NEXT POST

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #943332
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If Jesus Christ was not the literal firstborn of all creation, then this verse is impossible.

    to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    Do I hear an amen to this verse. So far no one is saying amen to these verses in the New Testament. I guess some of you have issues with some verses in the New Testament.

    #943334
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer

    I say AMEN that God created everything through Jesus Christ and that everything subsists in Him (Jesus)(John 1:3/1Cor.8:6/ Col.1: 15-17)

    🙏

    Nestle GNT 1904

    To God our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, kingdom, and power for ever, now, and forever; amen.

    Westcott and Hort 1881
    To God alone, our savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, kingdom, and power for ever, now, and forever; amen.

    Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
    To God alone, our savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, kingdom, and power for ever, now, and forever; amen.

    RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
    to the only wise God our savior, glory and majesty, kingdom and power, now and forever. Amen.

    Greek Orthodox Church 1904
    To the only wise God our savior, glory and majesty, kingdom and power, now and forever; amen.

    Tischendorf 8th Edition
    only god save us through jesus christ the lord us glory majesty state and power before all ages and now and to all ages amen

    Scrivener’s Textus Receptus 1894
    To the only wise God our savior, glory and majesty, kingdom and power, now and forever. Amen.

    Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
    to the only wise God save us glory and majesty kingdom and power now and forever amen

     

     

    #943335
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…..Jesus was “not” the first born human,  “Cain was”,  Jesus holds first place in all human creation in this sense,  He is he “firstborn” into the kingdom of God , and holds that position.   Remember Jesus said (not me),  “you must be born again”. Jesus was also born again, exactly as we must also be.  GET IT? , When are you going to start putting things written in our scriptures together?

    Peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #943343
    carmel
    Participant

    Proclaimer…..Jesus was “not” the first born human,  “Cain was”,  

    It seems to me quite clear, that you don’t know WHO CAIN WAS IN THE TRUTH!

    You: Jesus holds first place in all human creation in this sense,

    What you said above Gene, is proof that the  word

    FIRST, when it refers to Jesus your understanding is even worse than WHO CAIN WAS

    REGARDING THE TRUTH!

    Just read this scripture:

    Colossians 1:17 And he is before all,

    and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church,

    who is the BEGINNING, the firstborn from the DEAD;

    that in all things he may hold the primacy:

    I humbly speaking, just want to make the above more evident CLEAR,  Read again the above more simplified:

    …… “THE BEGINNING”,…..

    that in all things he may BE

    “THE FIRST ONE”:

    Now tell us something Gene, ABOUT

    WHAT IS THE TITLES:

    “THE BEGINNING” and

    “THE FIRST ONE”   IN ALL THINGS”

    IN ACTUAL FACT MEAN REGARDING

    JESUS?

    You: He is

    the “firstborn” into the kingdom of God ,

    and holds that position.

    ME: BUT THE ABOVE CONTRADICTS YOUR BELIEF I’M AFRAID, Gene!

    THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS ALSO

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON, AND

    COMMENCED IMMEDIATELY ON THE VERY FIRST

    PRONOUNCEMENT BY GOD! John1:1, Colossians 1:17

    LET THERE BE LIGHT! NO? Genesis 1:3,

    NOW WHO AND WHAT IS THAT LIGHT Gene?

     

    WHICH WAS INTRODUCED BY GOD  BOTH IN THE VERY-FIRST EVER 

    BEGINNING, and in all the beginnings from then on,

    and ALSO AS  

    THE FIRST

    OF ALL GOD’S FIRSTS IN THE KINGDOM OF THE SON/GOD from then on!

     

    Scriptures:

    John1:4 In him was LIFE, and the life was the LIGHT of men.

    5And the LIGHT shineth in DARKNESS, and the darkness did not

    COMPREHEND IT.

    Mathew 17:2 And he was transfigured before them.

    And his face did shine as the sun:

    and his garments became white as snow.

    John1:9 That was the true light,

    which enlighteneth EVERY man that cometh

    into this world.

    John12:46 I have come into the world as light,

    so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 

     

    Psalm 139:12 But darkness shall not be dark to thee,

    and night shall be light as day:

    the darkness thereof, and the light thereof are alike to thee.

    13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast protected me from

    MY MOTHER’S WOMB.

    14I will praise thee, for thou art fearfully magnified: wonderful are thy works,

    and MY SOUL knoweth right well.

    THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES CONFIRM THAT 

    JESUS PRE-EXISTED!

    HE WAS THE FIRST-EVER LIGHT,

    THE BEGINNING OF ALL THE BEGINNINGS OF GOD’S KINGDOM, and

    THE FIRST OF ALL THE FIRSTS OF GOD’S KINGDOM!

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON!

     

    You: Remember Jesus said (not me),  “you must be born again”.

    Jesus was also born again, exactly as we must also be.  GET IT? ,

    that in the next post, IF GOD PERMITS!

    Me:  Gene,

    When are you going to start putting things written in our scriptures together?

    Peae and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #943347
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel………No matter how you try to corrupt our scriptures,  it plainly say  (not me) …..he is the firstborn “FROM THE DEAD”.  JESUS himself said …..“I was “DEAD” an am now alive “FOREVER MORE”,   That is the exact same thing that must happen to us.

     

    You constantly try to make Jesus out to be different than his brothers and sisters,  that is exactly what the Devil wants you and all his ministers to do. Scripture says (not me) ….”Jesus is the firstborn of “MANY BRETHREN”.    NOT THE “ONLY” BORN,  of many brethren, but the first,  and if Jesus said , “I am the root and offspring of David,” , then he could not have existed before King David , common sense should tell you that. 

    Your illogical cherry picking and changing of scripture only proves how really screwed up your thinking is.  IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

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