John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,021 through 24,040 (of 26,008 total)
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  • #943267
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Gadam, I hope you have some good news to tell us.

     

    #943269
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Me: Satan could only leave hell fire by GOD’S ORDER!”

     You: Where in the Bible did you find what you write (here highlighted)?
    Can you make this clearer if possible?

    Now, according to my knowledge, hell does not exist YET….

    [Rev.19:20] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both 👉were cast alive 👉into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.👈

    After the thousand years (on earth)

    [7] And👉 when the thousand years are

    👉 expired, 👈 Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    [8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which 👉are in the four quarters of the earth👈, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    [9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: 👉and fire came down from God out of heaven, 👉and devoured them.👈

    [10] 👉And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire👈 and brimstone,👈 where the 👉beast and the false prophet are👈, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Me: Reading the above the word HELL does not exist.

    For me specifically, it is irrelevant, it is only a name for an enclosure in the hottest fire ever for all the condemned spirits/souls, where Satan runs his business, and his headquarters while still in the process of redemption!  In scripture, we read other names such as HADES, SHEOL, and GEHENNA! FOR ME IT IS ALL THE SAME PLACE WHERE ALL THE CONDEMNED ARE.

    What I could conclude is that at the very end, this same horrible place would eventually be transformed into the ACTUAL HELL you are aware of, but what difference does it make, in the meantime, since Satan is still running his business taking souls into whatever it is but definitely an enclosure of fire, to me the center of the earth, it is SATAN’S HEADQUARTERS that God established for him after his rebel!

    Ezekiel 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick;

    therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee,

    Notice: therefore will I bring  FORTH a fire from the midst of you!

    Now the world is Satan/Lucifer’s spirit, and in the center, there is the Hottest fire, and every now and then an eruption occurs! Keep on reading:

    it shall devour thee,

    and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them

    that behold thee.

    what are THE ASHES UPON THE EARTH …….  REFERRING TO?

    Definitely a reference to the LAVA! To be clear Satan’s spirit as lava.

    Jesus immediately on His death IN FULL GLORY entered this burning fire enclosure in order to manifest His superiority over fire, ATTENTION PLEASE as a

    HUMAN BEING IN A GLORIFIED FLESH BODY!

    GODMAN! Moses burning bush and not being consumed. Where he preached His Gospel and freed all those souls locked since Adam’s fall.

    Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was in the whale’s belly three days and three nights:

    so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

    John 5:25 Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear THE VOICE of the Son of God, and they that hear shall LIVE.

    The above is a reference to Jesus when he went to hell preaching His Gospel TO ALL SOULS IN HELL and for the first-ever time,

    THEY LIVED SPIRITUALLY IN “THE WORD” JESUS’SPIRIT, THE SON OF MAN WITHIN THEIR HEART AS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, ETERNAL LIFE;

    ORIGINALLY SATAN’S ABODE ON ADAM’S SIN!

    26For as the Father hath life in himself,

    so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself: 

    27 And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is the SON OF MAN

    Notice the above Jesus, as a spirit, was slain like a lamb from the beginning of the world Rev.13:8, but on His death, HE AS A SPIRIT glorified,

    GODMAN ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST.

    ….INTO YOUR HAND I COMMEND MY SPIRIT!

    HE WAS NO LONGER SLAIN WITHIN THE HEARTS OF CREATURES!

    AS SOON AS JESUS STARTED PREACHING HIS GOSPEL ALL SOULS IN HELL, WITH JESUS’ SPIRIT WITHIN THEIR HEARTS, RECOGNIZED JESUS’ VOICE, ACCEPTED HIS GOSPEL,

    FOR THE FIRS-EVER TIME BECAME ALIVE IN JESUS’ SPIRIT, AND WERE FREED! Well clear in

    John10:4 And when he hath let out his own sheep, he goeth before them: and the sheep follow him, because they know HIS VOICE. 27 My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me. 28And I give them LIFE everlasting; and they shall not perish forever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand. 

    1Peter 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in PRISON:

    Ephesians 4:9Now that he ascended, what is it, but because he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

    Job 20:22 When he shall be filled, he shall be straitened, he shall burn, and every sorrow shall fall upon him.

    26All darkness is hid in his secret places: a fire that is not kindled shall devour him, he shall be afflicted when left in his tabernacle.

    Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

    Matthew 10:28 And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Genesis 44:29 If you take this also, and anything befall him in the way you will bring down my gray hairs with sorrow into hell.

    Isn’t the highlighted above the same reference to Hell as you produced above?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943270
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Carmel

    the wages of sin is death and it ends after the judgment of God (Rev.20:4-15) in the lake of fire and brimstone (future events: return of Jesus and then after the thousand years.)

    Before that, there is no PERMANENT PLACE with individuals who experience God’s chastisement by fire and brimstone FOR GOD’S JUDGMENT IS STILL IN PROGRESS (REV.14:7)
    THE DEFINITIVE PUNISHMENT WILL COME AFTER THE LAST JUDGMENT.

    🙏

    #943271
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Carmel,

    Sorry, what you wrote sounds like something out of Dante’s Inferno!

    Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna are NOT the same place, regardless of what you believe.

    Hades is Greek mythology.

    Gehenna is the name of an actual valley on the southeast of Jerusalem where refuse, dead animals, and unburied bodies of criminals were burned.

    Sheol is often referred as the grave in the old testament, meaning your dead.

    YOU: Satan runs his business from here?!?!

    ME: This is foolishness and there is zero scriptural support for this statement. This is Catholicism and was devised to control and create fear in people…apparently it has worked!

    The John 5:25-27 is not complete as you didn’t continue to verse 29; this paragraph is talking about the second resurrection and final judgment. Stop cherry picking!

    YOU: “AS SOON AS JESUS STARTED PREACHING HIS GOSPEL ALL SOULS IN HELL, WITH JESUS’ SPIRIT WITHIN THEIR HEARTS, RECOGNIZED JESUS’ VOICE, ACCEPTED HIS GOSPEL, FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME BECAME ALIVE IN JESUS’ SPIRIT, AND WERE FREED!”

    ME: You need to explain Heb 9:27; there is death, then judgment; something does NOT align!

    If this is what you are being taught, you need to RUN as fast as you can in the opposite direction!

    Let’s ponder this “hell” for a moment, most believe this place exists and is where “bad people” go when they die and will be a place of eternal torment. Ask yourself, is there a passage that actually talks about this eternal place of torment in scripture? If this place does exist, why would God keep sin around for eternity? Also, people have a life expectancy of 80 years and because you didn’t “become saved” within that time frame you will now be tortured for eternity; thought we had a merciful God.

    Here’s the reality, there is a Lake of Fire and if you are the “chaff” on the winnowing floor, this is where you end up and it happens at the second resurrection where all will be judged. John 3:16 tells us; don’t believe in the Son, you will “perish”; perish mean destruction.

    #943272
    carmel
    Participant

    Berean,

    You asked for scriptures!

    I produced scriptures!

    Your turn is to analyze the scripture I produced and explain what all those scriptures are referring to!

    Now more scriptures:

    1 Samuel 28:And the woman said to him:

    Whom shall I BRING UP to thee?

    FROM WHERE ABOUT THIS WOMAN BROUGHT 

    SAMUEL UP? 

    And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

     12And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice, and said to Saul: Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13And the king said to her: Fear not: what hast thou seen? And the woman said to Saul:

    I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 

    WHAT ASCENDING OUT OF THE EARTH IS A REFERENCE TO!

    Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying:

    What is thy name? But he said:

    Legion;

    because many devils were entered into him. 

    31And they besought him that he would not command them to go into

    the abyss.

    Another word:

    THE ABYSS!

    WHAT SHALL WE CALL THE ABOVE?

    Wikipedia:

    In the Bible, the abyss is an unfathomably deep or boundless place. The term comes from the Greek word abyssos (Ancient Greek: ἄβῠσσος, ábussos, proper noun: Ἄβῠσσος, Ábussos), meaning bottomless, unfathomable, boundless.[1] It is used as both an adjective and a noun.[2] It appears in the Septuagint, the earliest Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, and in the New Testament.

    It translates the Hebrew words tehóm (תְּהוֹם‎ (noun), deep, void), tsuláh (צוּלָה‎ (noun), sea-deep, deep flood) and racháv (רָחָב‎, spacious place).[2]

    In the original sense of the Hebrew tehóm, the abyss was the primordial waters or chaos out of which the ordered world was created (Genesis 1:2). The term could also refer literally to the depths of the sea, the deep source of a spring or the interior of the earth.[3]

    In a later extended sense in intertestamental Jewish literature, the abyss was the underworld, either the abode of the dead (Sheol) or eventually the realm of the rebellious spirits (Hell). In the latter sense, specifically, the abyss was often seen as a prison for demons. This usage was picked up in the New Testament.[3][4] Jesus sent the Gadarene swine into the abyss (Luke 8:31) and the beast from the sea (Revelation 13:1) will rise out of the abyss (Revelation 11:7). The locusts—human-animal hybrids—ascend out of the abyss to torment those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads (Revelation 9:1–11). Paul uses the term in Romans 10:7 when quoting Psalm 107:26, referring to the abode of the dead (cf. also Psalm 71:20[5]).

    In Psalm 42:7, “deep calls to deep” (referring to the waters), or in Latin abyssus abyssum invocat, developing the theme of the longing of the soul for God. Cassiodorus relates this passage to the mutual witness of the two Testaments, the Old Testament foretelling the New, and the New Testament fulfilling the Old.[6]

    In Revelation 9:11, Abaddon is called “the angel of the abyss”.

    Now read what I posted, refer to it, and comment please:

    26All darkness is hidden in his secret places:

    WHERE ARE THESE SECRET PLACES WHERE SATAN RULES HIS KINGDOM UP TO THIS DAY AND GOD KNOWS WHEN HE IS TOTALLY SORTED OUT BY JESUS, MENTIONED IN THE NEXT VERSE HEREUNDER?

    WHILE TILL THEN HE CONTINUES TAKING SOULS AND FOR NO USE HE MAINTAINS HIS KINGDOM?

     a fire that is not kindled shall devour him,

    he shall be afflicted when left in his tabernacle.

    AGAIN WHERE IS SATAN’S TABERNACLE?

    MATTHEW 12:40 FOR AS JONAS WAS IN THE WHALE’S BELLY THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS:

    so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth …..

    Answer WHERE IS THE HEART OF THE EARTH, MENTIONED ABOVE,

    WHERE THE SON OF MAN/SON OF GOD JOHN 5:25 WENT AND PREACHED HIS GOSPEL?

    John 5:25 Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh,

    and now is,

     when the dead shall hear THE VOICE of the Son of God, and they that hear shall LIVE.

    EXPLAIN WHO ARE THESE 

    DEAD 

    and at the same time, they HEARD JESUS’ VOICE AND LIVED!

    WHAT KIND OF DEATH DID THEY EXPERIENCE?

    Reflect on Jesus’  words in:

    Luke 9:60 And Jesus said to him:

    Let the dead bury their dead:

    but go thou, and preach the kingdom of God.

    HIE COME, THE DEAD BURY THE DEAD?

    IT IS OBVIOUSLY A  CLEAR REFERENCE TO THE SPIRITUAL DEATH HUMANS/SOULS BEFORE JESUS’ REDEMPTION EXPERIENCED EVEN

    MOST OF THE HUMANS  ARE SPIRITUALLY DEAD TODAY

    Now read please:

    Ephesians 4:9Now that he ascended, what is it, but because he also descended

    first into the lower parts of the earth?

    Where, what is, and what we should call 

    THE LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH!

    Also in

    1Peter 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 

    19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in PRISON:

    EXPLAIN:  WHERE IS THIS PRISON?

    TO YOUR SCRIPTURE:

    [7] And  when the thousand years are expired,   

    Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    WHERE IS THIS PRISON?

    WHERE SATAN EVENTUALLY ENDS UP WAITING FOR HIS TURN TO COME UP AND ACCOMPLISHES HIS TASK FOR THE LAST TIME!

    Continue 1Samuel 28:

    14And he said to her: What form is he of? And she said:

    An old man cometh up,

    Notice Samuel a man of God, DIDN’T COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN BUT

    CAME UP!

    FROM WHERE?

    and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul understood that it was Samuel, and he bowed himself with his face to the ground, and adored.

    I LEAVE IT TO YOU NOW!

    Please again, refer specifically to my scriptures and comment!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943277
    Berean
    Participant

    1 Samuel 28:And the woman said to him:

    Whom shall I BRING UP to thee?

    FROM WHERE ABOUT THIS WOMAN BROUGHT

    SAMUEL UP?

    And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
    12And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice, and said to Saul: Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13And the king said to her: Fear not: what hast thou seen? And the woman said to Saul:

    I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
    WHAT ASCENDING OUT OF THE EARTH IS A REFERENCE TO!

     

    Me

    It IS NOT a reference to hell

    or something similar.

    We are here in the enchanted domain of “diabolical” mythology.

    Now, since I don’t have much time and I’m not an expert in this field of witchcraft, mediumship, etc…

    I chose a biblicaly comment that can help you understand what happened with the medium of Endor.

    (I highlight the critical point)

     

    “I find the story of Saul and the medium of En-dor intriguing and challenging. What kind of divination was done and how were the dead consulted in the ancient world?

    The narrative recorded in 1 Samuel 28:3-19 is unique in the Bible, and consequently it is somewhat difficult to understand the details of the story clearly.

    Saul was confronting a serious military crisis and, after unsuccessfully attempting to consult the Lord, decided to seek the guidance of a necromancer through whom he thought he could get God’s counsel. This was an attempt to force God to speak, based on magical ideas that required the performance of certain ritual practices in order to be fully effective.

    1. The necromancer is called “a woman who is a medium” (1 Sam. 28:7, NIV), that is to say, a woman who possessed a spirit. She apparently had the ability to communicate with the dead, seeking oracles from them. This type of persons were called “those who ask the spirits” (see Deut.18:11). Apparently they were possessed by the spirit they consulted, functioning as a medium. This is suggested by Lev. 20:27: “A man or a woman in whom there is a spirit. . .” (literal translation). In a sense this was a counterfeit of the gift of prophecy through which the prophet was possessed by the Spirit of the Lord, received messages from Him, and gave oracles to the people.

    2. The Hebrew word translated “spirit” in this narrative is ‘ob, and designates the necromancer ( I Sam. 28:3) as well as the spirit of the dead itself (Lev. 20:27), not ruah, which is the one used to refer to the Spirit of God. Its etymological meaning is not known, although it is believed by some that it may have meant “pit,” or “hole on the ground.”

    Consulting the dead required that a hole be made in the ground in which food and blood were placed with the clear purpose of enticing the spirit to come up from the underworld to enjoy this offering. The underworld, according to this ancient mythology, was also where demons were located, and they too seemed to have enjoyed blood (cf. Lev. 17:7).

    The ritual was performed at night, and Hittite mythology indicates that in some cases a small ladder was placed in the hole to facilitate the ascension of the spirit; at other times the necromancer placed himself or herself inside the hole in order to receive the message. Apparently the spirit spoke to or through the necromancer in undertones, whispering the oracle, chirping and muttering (Isa. 8:19).

    3. The necromancer consulted by Saul did not really bring up Samuel. She simply had a visionary experience that no one else was able to see. She told Saul: “I see a divine being coming up out of the ground” ( verse 13, NRSV).

    That the king was not able to see this being is clearly indicated by his question: “What is his appearance?” She then described the being she saw: “An old man. . . wrapped in a robe.” Saul concluded, based on that description, that it was Samuel (verse 14, NRSV).

    4. The spirit probably spoke to Saul through the medium and not directly and personally. As we indicated already, this was the way the oracle was communicated from the spirit to the person seeking counsel. Interestingly, the “divine being” did not say anything new to Saul. It simply repeated the message given by God through Samuel when he was still alive. In other words, it had no special knowledge inaccessible to human beings. The narrative rejects the common idea that the dead could function as guides for the living. Although those spiritual powers were called “the ones who have knowledge” (see Lev. 20:27), this story rejects that popular idea.

    5. Who was it, then, who spoke to Saul through the medium? The narrative does not say. It tells only who the protagonist of the story believed him to be.

    We must, therefore, examine the larger context of the story in the Bible. We know that the Lord condemned any attempt to communicate with the dead (Deut. 18:10, 11). We also know that the realm of death is where demonic powers are active (Heb. 2:14). In addition, we know that demons desire to communicate with humans, and at times they can possess them as their instruments (e.g., Acts 19:13-16). And finally, we are told that Satan can transform himself into what seems to be an angel of light to deceive humans (2 Cor. 11 :14).

    Based on the overall teachings of the Bible we can conclude that it was not Samuel who spoke to Saul but some other spiritual power not from God.”

    Written by Ángel Manuel Rodríguez 

    🙏

     

     

    #943280
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jude 1:25
    to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    Who here can say amen to this?

    #943281
    Berean
    Participant

    The King James Bible Say

    [25] To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

     

    #943283
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    …And the bible battle continues…

    Our translations aren’t unified, so how can the church be?!?!? Think about it!

    Ever notice how the Tanakh doesn’t have this issue?

    #943284
    Berean
    Participant

    Satan is at war with God and his Anointed and his church and his sacred trust: the Bible….
    He will go to the end in his war…

    Rev.12
    [7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    [8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

    Rev.12
    [17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Rev. 20 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded 👉for the witness of Jesus, and 👉for the word of God, and 👉which had not worshiped the beast,👉 neither his image, 👉neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, 👉or in their hands;

    #943285
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You: Now, since I don’t have much time and I’m not an expert in this field of witchcraft, mediumship, etc… I chose a biblicaly comment that can help you understand what happened with the medium of Endor.

    Me: I didn’t produce just the event of King Saul, though it is still not sufficient enough what you posted, INFACT IT IS MORE RELATED TO MY UNDERSTANDING SINCE IT IS OUT OF THE EARTH! Why did you focus on this event only, and ignored all the other scriptures, which emphatically refer to a place that contains fire and souls also within this fire? It is quite evident TO ME that the underworld or the heart of the world is a reference to the ENTIRE realm of ALL THE DEAD, NOT PHYSICAL FOR SURE, AS ALL THE FLESH REMAIN ON EARTH WHEREVER THEY ARE BURIED, WHILE THEIR SOULS AT LEAST TILL JESUS REDEMPTION, WERE ACCORDINGLY LOCKED IN A PLACE OF FIRE, AGAIN IN VARIOUS KIND OF FIRE RELATED TO THEIR BELIEF AND MORAL LIFE.

    NOW, just read again please, and don’t just ignore scriptures simply because it doesn’t apply to your BELIEF!

    Let’s start with this one in

    Rev. 1:18 And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living forever and ever,

    and have the keys of death and of hell.

    HELL WAS A PLACE WHERE SOULS COULD ONLY GO IN AND NEVER COME OUT!

    JESUS, FROM HIS DEATH, IS IN COMMAND HE HAS THE KEYS, NOT JUST TO LOCK SOULS IN BUT ALSO  EVEN TODAY COULD FREE THEM OUT.

    Now to this one:

    WHAT IS THE ABYSS?

    Psalm 16:10 Because thou wilt not leave my SOUL in hell;….

    Answer if you don’t want to accept the word HELL, what would you prefer instead? It is irrelevant. ALL SOULS OF THE OT. at least the evil ones, THE GENTILES, before Jesus’ redemption were locked in a place of fire for sure.

    Ephesians 4:9Now that he ascended, what is it, but because he also descended

    FIRST into the lower parts of the earth?

    What are the lower parts of the world, where Jesus COMMENCED His task of freeing souls, IN ORDER TO COMMENCE THE NEW TESTAMENT WITH THE HELL EMPTY AND SATAN AND HIS DEMONS DESPERATE EMPTY HANDED BACK TO SQUARE ONE AS HE WAS IN THE BEGINNING OF THIS WORLD ON ADAM SIN.

    The fact that immediately on Jesus’ death, SOULS BACK INTO THEIR ORIGINAL BODIES  came out of their tombs, for a while and revealed where they were locked before they died again? 

    Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, 53 And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many.

    Also mentioned in

    1Peter 4:6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,

    that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

    1Peter 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 

    19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in PRISON:

    WHAT IS THIS PRISON!

    MATTHEW 12:40 FOR AS JONAS WAS IN THE WHALE’S BELLY THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS:

    so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth …..

    Answer WHERE AND WHAT IS THE HEART OF THE EARTH, MENTIONED ABOVE,

    WHERE JESUS THE SON OF MAN/SON OF GOD JOHN 5:25-27 WENT, PREACHED HIS GOSPEL, AND FREED ALL THE SOULS FROM ADAM SIN?

    John 5:25 Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh,

    and now is,

    when the dead shall hear THE VOICE of the Son of God,

    and they that hear shall LIVE.

    Notice Berean Jesus FIRST  said NOW IS, A CLEAR REFERENCE TO HIS GLORY ON HIS DEATH, then He said

    when THE DEAD, SOULS SPIRITUALLY DEAD LOCKED IN HELL, IN THE ABYSS, IN HADES, IN SHEUL and God knows what, 

    hear the VOICE of the Son of God, and

    THEY THAT HEAR SHALL LIVE!

    THEY WERE SPIRITUALLY DEAD, THEY HEARD JESUS’ VOICE AND HIS GOSPEL, ACCEPTED HIS GOSPEL, AND BECAME SPIRITUALLY ALIVE IN JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, “THE WORD”SPOKEN OF GOD, ENGRAFTED WITHIN THEIR HEARTS FROM THE BEGINNING, ETERNAL LIFE!

    Now to

    Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus,

    that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, 

    and cool my tongue;

    for I am tormented in this FLAME.

     

    Matthew 10:28 And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: 

    but rather fear him which can destroy both soul and body in hell.

     

    WOULD YOU IGNORE JESUS’ WORDS AS WELL?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

       

     

    #943286
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……JESUS NEVER PREACHED “HIS” “GOSPEL”,  but the “GOSPEL OF THE KINGOM OF GOD’,  telling us to pray in this way,  “our father, (both his and ours) , who is in heaven, Holy be “YOUR” name,  “YOUR KINGDOM”  COME,  “YOUR” Will be done, on earth as it is done in heaven.  …….

    Seems you and Jesus have a different opinion on who’s “GOSPEL” Jesus was preaching.

    Carmel your corrupted views are easily seen by anyone who has ” the SPIRIT OF TRUTH” , Abiding them.

    peace and love to you and yours Carmel………gene

    #943288
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Carmel

    Hi Carmel

    The spirit and soul of man ARE NOT IMMORTAL…The soul that sinneth, it shall die.( The soul that sinneth, it shall die.(Eze.18:20)

    GOD ALONE IS IMMORTAL AND HE WILL GIVE IMMORTALITY TO THOSE WHO HAVE PURIFIED THEIR SOUL BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.

    🙏

    #943289
    carmel
    Participant

    Carmel……JESUS NEVER PREACHED “HIS” “GOSPEL”,  but the “GOSPEL OF THE KINGOM OF GOD’, 

    You will never have the Spirit of truth Gene,

    FIRST AND FOREMOST:

    THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS ALSO

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON!

    You: JESUS NEVER PREACHED “HIS” “GOSPEL”,

    Scriptures: 

    Mark 1:11 THE beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

    2 Corinthians 2:12  And when I was come to Troas for THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST,

    and a door was opened unto me in the Lord, 

     

    2Corinthians 4:4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of

    the gospel of the glory of Christ,

    who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Read again Gene a clear reference to you:

    In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers,

    Romans 1:8 First I give thanks to my God,         through Jesus Christ,

    for you all, because your faith is spoken of in the whole world. 9For God is my witness, whom I serve in my spirit

    in the gospel of his Son,…

    16:For I am not ashamed of

    the gospel of Christ:

    for it is THE POWER OF GOD unto salvation to everyone that believeth;

    to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 

     

    2Corinthians 9:13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto

    the gospel of Christ,

    and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men; 

     

    Philippians 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh

    the gospel of Christ:….

     

    Now regarding THE KINGDOM!

    Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness,

    and hath translated us into

    the kingdom of the Son of his love,

    14In whom we have redemption through                    HIS BLOOD,

    the remission of sins; 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 

    16For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him. 

    17And he is before all, and by him all things consist.

     18And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;

    that in all things he may hold the primacy: 

    19Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father,

    that all fullness should dwell; 

    20And through him to reconcile all things unto himself,

    making peace through the blood of his cross,

    both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven.

     

    NOW, SINCE YOU CONSIDER THAT YOU HAVE THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH

    TELL US Gene,

    WHY IT IS CALLED ALSO AS SUCH?

    I MEAN BOTH THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND THE KINGDOM OF THE SON!

    THE SCRIPTURE ABOVE IS THE EVIDENCE!

     

    MORE SCRIPTURE:

    Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send his angels,

    and they shall gather out of

    HIS KINGDOM all scandals,

    and them that work iniquity.

     43Then shall the just shine as the sun,

    in the kingdom of their Father.

    He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    NOW MR. SPIRIT OF TRUTH

    HAVE YOU GOT EARS?

    THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE IS EMPHATICALLY REFERRING TO

    JESUS THE SON OF MAN,

    A CLEAR REFERENCE TO THE HUMAN RACE IN FLESH AND BLOOD

    ALL IN HIM; Colossians above!

    NOW,  ANSWER

    WHO IS “THEIR FATHER”

    when it comes to

    the human race in flesh and blood?

    flesh counts for nothing when it comes to God’s work!

    IT IS HIS SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE TO  ALL OF HIS WORK, EVEN REGARDING GOD’S OWN FLESH IN

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS, THE SON OF MAN!

    THUS I REPEAT:

    WHO IS “THEIR FATHER”

    GOD THE FATHER OF ALL SPIRITS, OR 

    GOD THE FATHER OF ALL FLESH

    I SIMPLIFY IT FOR YOU:

    Scriptures:

     John 20:17…..go to my brethren, and say to them:

    I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.

     

    I ascend to THE GLORY OF my Father and to your Father,

    to my God and your God.

    YES, Gene, JESUS IS GOD AND FATHER OF THE HUMAN RACE!

    WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT IT’S YOUR PIGEON!

     

    More scripture:

    John17:1 THESE things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said:

    Father, the hour is come,

    glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee. 

    2As thou hast given him power over all flesh,

    that he may give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.

    Again, I SIMPLIFY IT FOR YOU: Gene, since by the look of it 

    YOU LACK THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH! WITH EVERY RESPECT TO YOU AND YOUR CORRUPTED REASONINGS. READ:

    THESE things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said:

    Father, the hour is come,

    glorify your Son, IN YOUR SPIRIT, and

    your Son glorifies you IN HIS FLESH!

     

    NO FATHER NO SON!

    NO SON NO FATHER!

     

    More scripture:

    John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

    John 16:15 All things whatsoever 

     the Father hath, are mine…..

     

    You:  telling us to pray in this way,  “our father, (both his and ours) , who is in heaven, Holy be “YOUR” name,  “YOUR KINGDOM”  COME,  “YOUR” Will be done, on earth as it is done in heaven.  …….

    Again Gene, WHERE IS THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH?

    DEFINITELY NOT IN YOU!

    LET’S READ THE RESPECTIVE SCRIPTURE:

    Matthew 6:9 Thus therefore shall you pray:

    Continue in the next post!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #943291
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Believe it or not

    What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

     Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,  who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

    #943292
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……God is our Father , not Jesus,  or why would Jesus even say, (not me),  “I am going to my father “AND” your Father,  my God “AND”  your God”.

    If you truly had the “Spirit of truth” abiding in you , you could easily put that together. But you are of the evil one and are unable to see the truth, which even a child could see.  You as all Satans ministers do,  spend your time making Jesus appear different than his human brothers and  sisters,  you and they have, have turned,  The man Jesus,  into your GOD. Exactly AS,   2THS2, plainly shows.  You have turned the “IMAGE” of the “MAN” Jesus,  into your God, and worship him as such also, Satan has tricked you into making Jesus your GOD, JUST AS he and his ministers have done in nearly “ALL” Christianity ,  you have fallen for the biggest “LIE”  ever fostered on humanity and even serve as a minister of that LIE.  “2ths2” .  

    Do you honestly think you will not be held accountable for doing that?, don’t delude yourself into thinking you will not held accountable, I will guarantee you will,  and in that day you will know who you were following, ratherJesus or Satan.

    peace and love to you and yours Carmel……..gene

     

    #943293
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……God is our Father , not Jesus,  or why would Jesus even say, (not me),  “I am going to my father “AND” your Father,  my God “AND”  your God”.

    If you truly had the “Spirit of truth” abiding in you , you could easily put that together. But you are of the evil one and are unable to see the truth, which even a child could see.  You as all Satans ministers do,  spend your time making Jesus appear different than his human brothers and  sisters,  you and they have, have turned,  The man Jesus,  into your GOD. Exactly AS,   2THS2, plainly shows.  You have turned the “IMAGE” of the “MAN” Jesus,  into your God, and worship him as such also, Satan has tricked you into making Jesus your GOD, JUST AS he and his ministers have done in nearly “ALL” Christianity ,  you have fallen for the biggest “LIE”  ever fostered on humanity and even serve as a minister of that LIE.  “2ths2” .  

    Do you honestly think you will not be held accountable for doing that?, don’t delude yourself into thinking you will not held accountable, I will guarantee you will,  and in that day you will know who you were following, ratherJesus or Satan.

    peace and love to you and yours Carmel……..gene

     

    #943294
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi all

    IS JESUS NOT IN A CERTAIN SENSE “THE FATHER” OF THOSE WHOSE HE IS THE SAVIOR GOD HAS GIVEN TO HIM?

    👇
    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace

    Hebrews 2

    [11] For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
    [12] Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
    [13] And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I AND THE CHILDREN WHICH GOD HATH GIVEN ME.

    John 6:37
    All that the Father GIVETH ME shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    John 6:39
    Now it is the will of him who sent me that I lose nothing OF ALL THAT HE HAS GIVEN ME, but that I raise it up on the last day.…

     

    John 17:2
    as you have given him authority over all flesh, that he may give eternal life to all whom you have given him.…

    [6] I have manifested thy name UNTO THE MEN WHICH THOU GAVEST ME out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept your word.

    🙏

    #943297
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I’m not hearing any amens from you guys when I quote scripture. Lol. Your silence is deafening. You are skeptical regarding the New Testament. Free will means it is your choice of course.

    #943296
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Are you a believer or skeptic?

    He came down from Heaven

    For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day.

    He was from Heaven

    The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

    He is now with the father in the glory he had before the world

    And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    Do I hear an amen or are you a skeptic?

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