John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,781 through 23,800 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #942737
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer. …..Wrong, I certainly do know people and things are called by their “ATRIBUTES”   A airplane is call a bird,  because it flies like a bird, but is it an actual bird? Of course not,  there in lies the problem,  being call something because of a similar a tribute does not make you that thing,  I fully understand that, and that applies to Jesus being called the word of God.

    Jesus carries the ATRIBUTE  of the word of God,  not because he “is”,  the word of God, but because he “QUOTES” God the Father’s words to us. that does not make him actually GOD the Father’s word “HIMSELF”.   

    I COMPLETELY , GET THAT PROCLAIMER.

    Peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer. ………gene

    #942738
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Proclaimer,
    reply to #942714

    I am not rejecting the aforementioned scriptures, I’m questioning our understanding of them. Do we understand them in the context and perspective of which they have been written or are we understanding them with our modernistic minds of what other people have told us these scriptures mean?

    You reject the trinity doctrine; yet, hold onto the “preexistence” of Christ, why? You site all the verses that “support” this claim, have you ever looked into these verses from a Jewish perspective? Doesn’t a preexistent Christ in heaven with God create a “multi-God” scenario (you will say no); but, we have two divine beings. One is the “father” and the other the “son”; but wait, the “son” is equal to the “father” and is actually the “father”. This becomes extremely confusing and requires mental gymnastics, twisting of scripture to explain, and a lot of faith to understand.

    The new testament wasn’t around in the first century…man canonized it some 300 years later. They compiled a bunch of letters into a book and called it the “new covenant” (originally there were only 22 “books” and some time later another 5 were added). Here’s the catch to this “new covenant” – our unchanging God, just changed. The reality is, God’s promise to Abram hasn’t changed, this “covenant” from the old testament is still active today. This covenant is to follow what God commanded and by doing so you enter into His family and become a son of God. Rev 22:14 makes this clear, do God’s commandments and you will have access to the Tree of Life and enter His city.

    Brief history, any foreigner who lived in Israel was to follow the laws given to Moses and by doing so were to be treated as though they were fellow Israelite’s. Going back to when Moses lead the Jews out of captivity, there were many who were not Jews that came with and all who went with, came under God’s protection. God treated them the same, as long as they followed what he said.

    I am NOT saying we are under the old testament law as the written ordinances were nailed to the cross; but what wasn’t nailed to it? God’s laws, His words, His commandments. Christ in Matt 19:17 says “…if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments”. Whose commandments? God’s. By following God’s commandments you have salvation, you are delivered, you have life. Christ is the perfect example of how we are to follow God’s commands. Christ is our mediator and he is how we are able to come before God today. This “concept” of having a “mediator” is no different than in the old testament; they had Moses, Joshua, Judges, Kings, prophets, etc.

    #942742
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    As I am playing catch up and reading through the earlier comments, PLEASE read from the beginning of Proverbs 8 and continuing into chapter 9. Solomon is speaking of wisdom and wisdom alone. Wisdom is referred to as a “she”…think about it. Wisdom is what Solomon prayed for and God blessed him with it and everything earthly that comes with it. Without God’s wisdom, you understand nothing. Wisdom is explained to be of more value than any amount of earthly treasure. Wisdom is a characteristic of God, thus has been with Him before time began.

    Why are we making this more complicated than it needs to be!??!

    #942746
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Agreed that wisdom is an attribute of God just as light, truth, and love are too.

    However, I think that God creates life and endows them with attributes or different measures and mixes of it, which makes us unique. We know that truth is of God, but Jesus said that he was The Truth. We know that life comes from God, but Jesus said he was The Life. He was the embodiment of these godly attributes. even from a nature perspective, we know that God is spirit, but so are angels. It is no surprise to me that all beings made in the image of God will share or partake in his attributes and nature.

    My second point which I wish to reinforce is that the New Testament is a further / fuller revelation. The Old speaks of things as a mystery, but the New puts a face to these mysteries.

    Finally, speaking about wisdom, it is said that it was the craftsman at his side and we know that Jesus is at his right hand side in the glory that he had with the Father before the cosmos. We also know that the Logos was there too and became flesh and now is in a body that we will eventually inherit too. So yes, there are attributes like the word of God and there are persons like The Word of God.

    1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
    but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
    It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 2:6-9
    6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
    7 No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
    8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
    9 However, as it is written:
    “No eye has seen,
    no ear has heard,
    no mind has conceived
    what God has prepared for those who love him”

    Ephesians 3:8-10
    8 Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
    9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
    10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

    The line between an attribute and person is a fine one when reading scripture. Jesus (a person) said he was the Truth which is an attribute. I think God delights in expressing his attributes through the living. He is the God of the living, not the dead. An attribute is not a living thing, but they are seen through the living and the works of the living.

    #942748
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I am not rejecting the aforementioned scriptures, I’m questioning our understanding of them. Do we understand them in the context and perspective of which they have been written or are we understanding them with our modernistic minds of what other people have told us these scriptures mean?

    Sure and I already know that. But I believe some are rejecting them because they basically teach this subject this way. Seriously, these are some of the rebuttals I have seen here. (Not quoted as almost impossible to find them, just terse summaries.)

    Person 1)
    “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

    Person 2) Jesus, didn’t mean that he was the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star. What he meant was he was the offspring and the offspring.


    Person 1)
    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

    Person 2)
    It means he is the firstborn from the dead and firstborn in the new creation. He is not before all things.


    Person 1)
    And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

    Person 2)
    The beginning of the NEW creation of God.


    Person 1)
    And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    Person 2)
    The glory that was in God’s mind because he (The Son) didn’t exist yet.


    Person 1)
    No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.

    Person 2)
    He didn’t come from heaven.


    Seriously, the summary of their arguments is just to insert words that are not there. I could do the same and create any argument from the bible if I had such a license. For example, I could teach that Jesus is NOT the Son of God by taking the Son of God passages and adding in the world ‘Not’. Yes, this is the opposition’s methodology as I see it. Whether they are correct or not, they simply deny the plain reading of many scriptures and their commentaries end up with the exact opposite meaning. I have a problem with that.

    In conclusion, if you think something is true, you need to provide evidence. So far, the evidence being used is not evidence because some are just adding to the word or taking away from the word. And here is the kicker. If I take a scripture and reword it ever so slightly to make it look like I wrote it myself, I am opposed. Worse than that, I have even posted only scripture in some posts and was opposed. That shows clearly what they are opposing.

    #942749
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    You reject the trinity doctrine; yet, hold onto the “preexistence” of Christ, why?

    They are not mutually exclusive. This comes from Greek thinking where everything was either created or is the creator. But scripture teaches us that there is this thing called ‘begotten’ which by scriptural definition is neither.

    In fact, one of the reasons why the Trinity Doctrine is believed by so many is because early teachers tried to understand how Jesus could be the literal firstborn of all creation and not be created. But we are told that creation is defined as being made by God through the Word. But the Son came from God himself and directly. This also differentiates the Son from the sons. He is called the only begotten Son for a reason. If you were stranded on a deserted island with a bible and read the whole New Testament, you would believe that Jesus was the Son of God, that he was the first to be with God even before the cosmos, that there was only one true God, and that his God is our God namely the Father.

    It is within the realm of possibility that the god of this age has set one group against the other. That Jesus is God, or that he was strictly a man created 2000 or so years ago. But scripture supports neither as the full picture. Such is how deception works. Politicians use it all the time. Here is an example of this method.

    A president wants his populace to have a national ID number from birth. How does he get people to accept it? Simple, he gives them two choices.

    1. Every citizen will be issued with an ID card and must hold it at all times.
    2. Every citizen will be given a number without a card. It will be used in the census and other things.

    People will choose the second. But if you only offered the second choice, then they would say no.

    So by pitting two groups one being Jesus is God vs Jesus being created 2000 years ago, there is no option here to say no, and hence why you are puzzled about my belief and asked the question to begin with.

    #942760
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Wrong, I certainly do know people and things are called by their “ATRIBUTES”   A airplane is call a bird,  because it flies like a bird, but is it an actual bird? Of course not,  there in lies the problem,  being call something because of a similar a tribute does not make you that thing,  I fully understand that, and that applies to Jesus being called the word of God

    Not wrong. You could be called Lucifer if you were a shining one. A plane is not known as a bird, but can be like a bird. But not a bird. If you call it a bird  it would just be a slang term. If you looked bird up in the dictionary  it probably won’t say plane. Unless there was a plane called bird like Jesus name is The Word of God.

    #942761
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    It’s funny because you believe the son of Mary is Jesus because that is his name, but you ignore him as The Word of God. You seem to only accept the things of the flesh.

    #942762
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    To everyone,

    Do we know the origins of the word “logos”? It was coined by the Greek philosopher Heraclitus around 600-500BC. He invented the word to “explain the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe.” “Logos” isn’t an everyday word used to say “word” in the Greek, “lexi” is. Yet for the last 20 years people here have been arguing who/what the word is. With this understanding, it’s not Jesus!

    It is way past time for people to throw off their religion and start understanding what scripture really says. Religion is preventing the Spirit of God from working in people’s lives today. We must remember, the path is narrow; the wide path is to destruction and when over a billion people identify as “christian”, a narrow path cannot support that amount of people but a highway can…time is short, and only getting shorter!

    #942763
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    ‘Logos’ can be translated as ‘word’, ‘speech’, or ‘reason’. In Greek philosophy, logos was used to refer to the principle of reason and order that governs the universe, and was considered to be the divine force that created and organized the cosmos.

    In John 1:1 we read about the divine Word of God, which was made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. In this context, logos represents the idea that God’s creation and communication with him personally is expressed through Jesus Christ who represents and speaks for God. Further, he is the called the Logos because he governs God’s creation.

    Regardless of what Logos means, John 1:1 identifies this logos as Jesus when the logos comes in the flesh. We also see the uses the definite article for all mentions of logos in John 1;1, so it it singling out a specific logos rather than just talking about an attribute. Likewise, the definite article is used for all instances of ‘theos’ except one. So we know it is a specific theos, the Most High, except the last instance in John 1:1. That one instance of theos is referring to a qualitative view of God or attribute which is sometimes translated as ‘divine’ and is more talking about nature than specifically identifying God himself.

    So THE Logos and THE God are specific and not qualitative. This rules out THE Logos and THE God as being attributes only. After all, we don’t read “IN the beginning God created the heavens and earth” and think that it is talking about divine nature. So why do some do the equivalent with the Logos.

    We who speak English can understand the implications of the definite article. If we say ‘The Spirit is invisible’ for example, then we are usually talking about a specific spirit such as the Holy Spirit.  But if I say, spirit is invisible, then it is more qualitative. This is a quality of spirit in general that could apply to all or other spirits like angels.

    To wrap up. The Logos became flesh and all creation was made by God through the Logos. Jesus Christ came in the flesh and all things were made through him. Then we learn that Jesus Christ is called / named ‘The Word of God’. Perhaps the implications of this can only be discerned by the spiritually minded and the carnal will always relegate Jesus to the flesh as a man created 2000 or so years ago.

    Yet we read this which kind of negates his supposed 2000 years of existence:

    to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    #942764
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer, and ALL.

    You: Jesus Christ is even called The Word of God.

    Me: Now this is the vital question that seems well clear throughout this topic, and, humbly speaking except through my posts, no one ever seriously addressed, thus:

    Why, and what is the origin that Jesus is not only even called  The Word of God, but since God is eternal,

    Jesus eternally is

    The Word of God?

    Isaiah 55:11 So shall my WORD be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not RETURN to me void, but it shall DO whatsoever I please, and shall PROSPER  in the things for which I sent it.

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and effectual, and more piercing than any two edged sword; and reaching unto the division of the soul and the spirit, of the joints also and the marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13Neither is there any creature invisible in his sight: but all things are naked and open to his eyes, to whom our speech is.

    1Peter1:23 Being born again not of corruptible seed,

     but incorruptible, by the WORD of God WHO  liveth and remaineth forever.

     

    Paradoxically, though, Jesus, in order to manifest and reveal God the Father as

    THE PRIMORDIAL LIGHT in the infinite existence, then in pitch darkness, as

    “THE WORD”  had a BEGINNING, 

    THE BEGINNING OF GOD AS THE PRIMORDIAL LIGHT, in that very first instant it was pronounced:

    LET THERE BE LIGHT!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #942785
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Proclaimer,

    You are almost there, you are right at the edge and all you need to do is step out of the religious box. In vs. 14 “the word became flesh”; flesh is what the “word” became and that flesh is Jesus. However, with our superior modern understanding (never mind what the Jews believed and understood) and through the use of Greek philosophy we’ll interpret the scriptures saying, since Jesus is the flesh, the flesh is the “word”, therefore Jesus is the “word”, since Jesus is the “word”, he must be the “word” of verse 1, therefore Jesus is God. This is called circular reasoning. No one, other than John, ever calls Jesus “the Word”. One must ask, why?

    If the concept of Jesus being the “word” is truth and is the original intent and meaning of John, why aren’t any other writers talking about it?!? Why is John the only one to receive this “revelation”? Wouldn’t this be a HUGE revelation to mankind and everyone in the early church spreading this news like wildfire “Jesus is God”? No, they taught Jesus was the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God and was the way to God. There is something wrong with the current understanding of what John was trying to convey in 1:1.

    Heraclitus coined the term “logos” to explain away the divine reason or plan of a changing universe. Are we to ignore the originator of the word and substitute our own understanding? Using his definition and substituting “divine reason” or “plan” in place of “logos” (aka “word”), John 1:1 and the following verses take on a different meaning. In verses 3,4 the early modern translations (pre KJV) all have “it” in place of “him”; so all things where created by “it” and life was in “it”. It was the KJ translation the personified the “logos” by calling it “him”. The old testament says God is the creator all things and life comes from God. I think this understanding of “logos/word” meaning “divine reason” or “plan” scares people to death because it creates a trust issue with the “church system.” How can the “church” lie?

    Tell me, when Carmel is explaining his stance of the trinity or preexistence, is it easy to understand or do we feel we have just gone through a complex theological course? God is a “straight shooter” and gave us a “manual” and it’s not a complicated one. If it feels complicated, pray for wisdom and the Spirit will reveal.

    #942786
    Berean
    Participant

    The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:….

    👇
    [13] And he(Jesus) was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 

    WARNING,:
    [18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, 👉If any man shall add unto these things,👈 God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:👈
    [19]👉 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, 👉God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    🙏

     

    #942787
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: There is an argument over if Paul in Colossians 1 is speaking of 2 creations or just one. I have just shown how Paul is clearly referencing ONE creation. 

    Me: I’ll put it this way to you:

    Was Paul talking about

    A NEW CREATION, SPIRITUAL and ETERNAL? 

    THE OLD CREATION, CARNAL AND SPIRITUALLY DEAD? OR

    BOTH THE NEW AND THE OLD?

    Let’s start with this perspective in mind!

    Colossians 1:9 Therefore we also, from the day that we heard it, cease not to pray for you,

    Attention now read please: 

    and to BEG that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will,

    To the next one now:

    in all wisdom, and spiritual understanding: 

    HA! HA! There’s is something which preoccupies you I’m afraid!

    Are you Jodi and Gene,

    filled with the KNOWLEDGE  of His will, and in

    ALL WISDOM, and SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING?

    Yes, you are both of you filled alright, but with the knowledge of your will, and all wisdom and understanding of this world, 

    SPIRITUALLY DEAD!

    Just read what you said:

    You: There is an argument as to how Jesus exists as God’s Son

    John 3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven,

    the Son of man who is in heaven. 

    The above Jodi is the simplest clearest answer to HOW JESUS EXISTS, by Jesus Himself!

    You: and when he became God’s Son.

    Luke 2:48 And seeing him, they wondered. And his mother said to him: Son, why hast thou done so to us? behold thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 49And he said to them: How is it that you sought me?

    did you not know, that I must be about my FATHER’S business? 

    There you are again Jodi: JESUS A MERE CHILD OF TWELVE,  SIMPLY TOLD YOU AT LEAST BY THIS EVENT, WHEN HE BECAME AWARE THAT GOD WAS HIS FATHER.

    That means Jodi that Jesus anticipated His Father at the river Jordan!

    ALWAYS ACCORDING TO YOU THOUGH!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #942790
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Singing of John 1:1-14 doesn’t change the meaning of what is written.

    Rev 1:1 – not sure where you are going with this.

    Rev 19:13 – are we understanding this correctly, YOU added Jesus in parentheses to emphasis the “he” is “Jesus”. This verse allusions back to Isaiah 63:2,3 and speaks of God’s day of vengeance. So who is it really being referenced, Jesus or God? Note in the next verse it is the armies who follow, who is the commander of heavens armies? Who is the “LORD Sabaoth” (not sabbath) – an interesting study if you dare.

    Rev 22:18-19 – not sure of your reference here, are you insinuating I am adding to or taking away from the book of Revelation?

    #942793
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth  ……..AMEN, as I said you are a breath of fresh air brother.   Your sound reasoning expresses the “SPIRIT OF TRUTH”, guiding your thoughts,   like it does JODI. 

    GOD has sent to this site delievers, if only Proclaimer, who runs this site would listen,  he has no idea how many God would bring here.  O Proclaimer,  please consider the truth being expressed here. I really don’t believe GOD the Father of truth,  is going to bring to many here to listen to false teachers like Berean, Carmel, and others. But he will bring more of his chosen ones, and they shall act as one in agreement, I believe, especially if “You”,  come to see what we are telling you. Remember when I told you , “you were half way in and half way out, is that not the same thing Desire Truth , is telling you brother?

    Peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth. ……….gene

    .

     

    #942794
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Jodi……..It’seems not about the truth to them, it about their false religious ideas, their not even intellegent enough to understand  that what they say is completely again what scriptures in the old Testement says,

    they create complete contradictions, in our scriptures,

    And don’t even know  they are.

    Me:

    Hi Gene,

    You: Desire Truth……..I believe, if whatever is said “contradicts ”  what is written in the old Testament,  it is a lie. I also believe it takes the “spirit of truth”  to guide your mind into the true meaning of scriptures.

    Hereunder are two groups of scriptures one from the OT, and one from the NT.

    Are these groups contradictory in any way, or IN FACT NOT ONLY THEY AREN’T BUT THEY ARE IN FULL HARMONY?

    Which is my conclusion after all!

    Nevertheless, for the sake of truth it’s our task to analyze and prove whether they are contradictory or not.

    Here we go:

    Genesis 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her SEED: 

    Genesis 15:18 That day God made a covenant with Abram, saying: To THY “SEED” will I give this land, from the river of Egypt even to the great river Euphrates

    Genesis 22:18 I will BLESS thee, and I will multiply THY “SEED” as the stars of heaven, and as the sand that is by the seashore: THY “SEED” shall possess the gates of their enemies. 18And in THY “SEED” shall all the nations of the earth be BLESSED, because thou hast obeyed my voice.

    2Samuel 7:12 And when thy days shall be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will raise up thy SEED after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

    Isaiah 1:9 Except the Lord of hosts had left us SEED, we had been as Sodom, and we should have been like to Gomorrha.

    Isaiah 6:13 And there shall be still a tithing therein, and she shall turn, and shall be made a show as a turpentine tree, and as an oak that spreadeth its branches: that which shall stand therein, shall be a holy SEED.

    Isaiah 61:9 And they shall know their SEED among the Gentiles, and their offspring in the midst of peoples: all that shall see them, shall know them, that these are the SEED which the Lord hath BLESSED.

    Zechariah 8:12 But there shall be the “SEED” of peace: ….

    Now to the NT verses.

    Galatians 3:16To Abraham were the promises made and to his seed. He saith not, And to his seeds, as of many: but as of one, And to thy SEED, which is Christ.

    Galatians 3:29 And if you be Christ’s, then are you the SEED of Abraham, heirs according to the promise.

    Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The SEED is the word of God.

    Matthew 13:37 Who made answer and said to them: He that soweth the good SEED, is the Son of man. 

    John12:24 Amen, amen I say to you, unless the grain of wheat falling into the ground dies, 25Itself remaineth alone. But if it dies, it bringeth forth much fruit. 

    1Peter1:23 Being born again not of corruptible seed,

     but incorruptible, by the word of God who liveth and remaineth for ever.

    1John3:9 Whosoever is born of God, commmitteth not sin: for his SEED abideth in him, and he can not sin, because he is born of God.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #942795
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi and All,

    You: There is argument over if a god was morphed into a virgin’s womb becoming flesh like some pagan god or

    Me:  Jodi, only you and Gene, and by the look of it, also Desire Truth, conclude such a hypothesis.

    You: God’s word became true in the man of flesh Jesus of Nazareth.

    Me: Jodi, may I ask a super simple question, for the sake of others, please?

    In order to justify your TRUTH,  you felt the need to use TERMS not even within the scripture, and make  THE TRUE WORD OF GOD of OT a LIE,  by saying  “God’s word “BECAME” TRUE…” ?

    Is the word of God of the OT TRUE? 

    NOW IF IT IS TRUE,

    Why according to you, God’s word BECAME true in the man of FLESH Jesus of Nazareth?

     

    Also, I WONDER WHY THERE WAS THE NEED TO USE A TERM ALSO NOT WITHIN THE SCRIPTURE BY SAYING:

    ….IN THE MAN OF FLESH….

    AREN’T ALL MEN OF FLESH? ALSO, THE SCRIPTURE IS WELL CLEAR! READ PLEASE:

      Genesis 6:3 And God said: My spirit shall not remain in MAN forever,

    because he is flesh,

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #942798
    Berean
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    I partially agree with you that Revelation 19:13 refers to Isaiah 63:2,3 but I must say that it is about Christ and not about God the Father.

    It is actually a prophecy about Christ, 

    1) his earthly ministry up to the cross when he was made sin for us. 

    👉”I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me:”(v.3)

    This verse IS ABOUT JESUS LIFE AND DEATH ONE THE CROSS.

    Meditate on it man of God

     

    2) also when he returns as Judge and King of Kings and Lord of Lords (v.16) to chastise the nations of the earth and their kings and end the war of Armageddon.

    👉…for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, ….

    This war against the day of GOD, it is first mentioned in Rev.16:12-16.

    V.14 The army that follows him are the holy angels of which Christ is the head.

    The reference is in Matthew 24, where it is written:
    And then shall appear the 👉sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall 👉all the tribes of the earth mourn, and👉 they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    [31] And

    👉he shall send HIS ANGELS with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    The holy angels in heaven are the angels of GOD and of Christ.

    ANGELS OF GOD:

    Hebrews 1:[6] And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    Rev.3[:5] He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Luke.12

    [8] Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
    [9] But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
    Luke.15
    [10] Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

    ANGELS OF CHRIST

    2Thes.1
    [7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

    Matt.16

    [27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    [41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

    Without forgetting that he is faithful and true (v.11) and that he is THE WORD OF GOD (v.13)

    Revelation 19
    KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, 

    THIS IS ALSO IN REVELATION 17:14  

    These shall make war with the Lamb👈, 

    and the Lamb 👉shall overcome them:👉 for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

     

    🙏

     

    #942803
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    You may disagree with my assertion of whom is being spoken of, but looking at the verse prior “…He has names written and a name written which no one knows but he himself.” (WEB) Most translations do not have “has names written”; however, I find this interesting that it is inserted here. Who is known by many names? God or Jesus? What is written in most is the second half – a name only he knows. Are you saying Jesus has a name that only he knows and God his Father does not!?! Sounds like a rebellious child…keeping something from Daddy.

    Moving onto the last part of verse 19:13, which seems to hang everyone up, “his name is called the Word of God”. The Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) renders this phrase as HaDvar Hashem (the word of God – the “Ha” defines a definite article) and is rendered the same in most translations. Dvar Hashem occurs 87 times in the OJB and in most translations “of God” has been removed leaving just “word”. The same thing has been done in John 1:1, the OJB has Dvar Hashem (word of God) and every translation has removed “of God” and thus has changed the meaning of what is being conveyed by John and opening a door to alternative meanings. See passages below:

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. (KJV)

    1 Bereshis (In the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [Yeshayah 55:11; Bereshis 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [Mishle 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Tehillim 56:11(10); Yochanan 17:5; Rev. 19:13] 2 Bereshis (In the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Mishle 8:30]. (OJB)

    Reading the OJB does take work and requires an additional tool to translate certain words, but the Jewish perspective is enlightening. One of things I like are the references to additional passages for further clarity. For example, Mishle 8:30 is referenced twice as Dvar Hashem “was with” Hashem (God), this reference is Proverbs 8:30, the chapter on “wisdom”. Read all of Proverbs 8, keeping John 1:1 in mind as you do; are you seeing it yet, are things clearing up?

    Hope this helps

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