John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,481 through 23,500 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #938876
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    CARMEL you said,  COULD THE FATHER HIMSELF COME ON EARTH AS A HUMAN AND DO WHAT JESUS DID EVEN DIE?
    YES OR NO PLEASE!
    I said ,” he  (Jesus) ,  could not have “himself” Created anything” , why?,  Because He couldn’t. Then You have ““cleverly” switched  subject matter from Jesus to God the Father…. So lets let scripture answer you OK?

    Scripture says (not me)…….Num 23:19,  God is “NOT”,  a “MAN”,  that he should lie; neither the,  “Son of man”, that he should repent:   So there you go Carmel,  using the words “COULD” the Father do this or that,  is a ,  mute point, because scripture say “clearly” he is not those things”.

    Also i really don’t believe God could ever die, because if he did “die”,  all creation would cease to exist, IMO. 

    Carmel, the question still remains, Do you people “truly” believe what God the Father,  Jesus,  and the prophets. said or not?  

    Peace and love to you and yours Carmel…………..gene

     

     

     

     

    #938877
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi…….Good post . Please check on line the “21st Century Reformation”  site , And tell me what you think. 

    Peace and love to you and yours Jodi………gene

    #938878
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Yes, as you said, “him” being JESUS CHRIST, but you are turning the image of Jesus Christ into a false image.

    Jesus is a name given to a human, a human born according to YHVH’s word. His virgin birth, his ancestry as he was born a seed of Abraham and that of David, also all according to YHVH’s word.

    Jesus’s name means YHVH is salvation, and Jesus of Nazareth received YHVH’s Spirit without measure where then he was sent out to fulfill YHVH’s will, that which we know was YHVH’s purpose before the world began, salvation and eternal life for humans.

    Through the Spirit, which also descended upon Jesus according to YHVH’s WORD, Jesus spoke YHVH’s words and did works in YHVH’s name as the works that he did were by following YHVH’s commands, why we are told that God did the works through him and thus why Jesus’s name means YHVH is salvation.

    The anointed Jesus shedding his blood on the cross was even according to YHVH’s WORD before the world began and he went to the cross according to YHVH’s will, not his own and he was able to deny his own will through the power of the Spirit that lived in him, the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Fear of YHVH.

    Furthermore, when we are given the WORD of YHVH concerning a Son of Man who would received HIS  Spirit, a calling to righteousness, where YHVH would hold his hand and keep him to fulfill HIS covenant an oath that YHVH SWORE, this very YHVH SAID that HE created the heavens and stretched them out and HE spread forth the earth and all that come out of it. 

    When are you going to be honest with the truth Berean?

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #938879
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    I just checked it out! It’s wonderful, thanks for sharing!

     

    #938880
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    Of course the name of THE SON OF GOD “IN THE BEGINNING” was not Jesus, for Jesus is his name WHEN HE WAS MADE FLESH.
    BUT HIS NAME IN THE BEGINNING IS “THE WORD OF GOD”, BECAUSE IT IS HE WHO SPOKEN IN THE BEGINNING TO CREATE HEAVEN AND EARTH and all things.
    John 1:3
    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 

    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

     

    THIS IS THE PURE TRUTH

    #938881
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: CARMEL you said,  COULD THE FATHER HIMSELF COME ON EARTH AS A HUMAN AND DO WHAT JESUS DID EVEN DIE?
    YES OR NO PLEASE!
    I said ,” he  (Jesus) ,  could not have “himself” Created anything” , why?,  Because He couldn’t.

    Then You have ““cleverly” switched  subject matter from Jesus to God the Father….

    Me: Geene, read again how we discussed things!

    YOU: Jesus plainly said he himself could do “nothing of himslf” ,

    so how could he have ever created anything.

    ME: from the above it is more than clear that your interest is not for the truth, but to honour the Father more than the son!

    Scripture is clear Gene, read:

    John 5:23That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father.

    He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him.

    John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

    Gene, The above is pure truth, YOU NEVER  DISCUSS THE SON JESUS WITHOUT ALSO REFER  OR INVOLVE ALSO THE FATHER, THEY ARE INSEPARABLE, AND IN THE SAME TIME DISTINCT.

    Now read what I said:

    ME: Gene You keep on repeating the same reasoning that JESUS COULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, But your carnal reasoning with every respect is so corrupted that you never see the other side of Jesus’ own words.

    WHAT IS THE OTHER SIDE  OF JESUS’OWN WORDS Gene?

    Scripture:

    John5:16 Therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, because he did these things on the sabbath. 17But Jesus answered them: My Father worketh until now; and I work.

    Ok Gene, both the Father and the Son work IN ONE SAME INSTANT! 

    THEY ARE ETERNALLY INSEPARABLE!

    JESUS’ WORK IN GENERAL IS THE FATHER’S WORK ETERNALLY!

    IF THE FATHER CREATES JESUS ALSO CREATES.

    THE FATHER WAS MAN IN JESUS ON EARTH, FROM BIRTH!

    Scripture:

    Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor as the son of man, that he should be changed.

    THE PURE FACT Gene, THAT

    GOD IS THE TRUTH  AS MAN IN JESUS!

    GOD IS NOT THE SON OF MAN THAT HE SHOULD BE CHANGED, BUT

    THAT HE IS THE SAME IN JESUS:

    GOD! 

    THE FACT THAT WHILE JESUS WAS ON EARTH, HE WAS ALSO IN HEAVEN, LIKEWISE, WHILE THE FATHER WAS ON EARTH IN JESUS, HE WAS ALSO IN HEAVEN IN ONE GLORY WITH JESUS! John3:13

    MORE OF THE OTHER SIDE  OF JESUS’OWN WORDS!

    Scripture:

    John 5:18 Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father,

    MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.

    The Jews concluded Gene, that JESUS MADE HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD! Let’s see!

    19 Then Jesus answered, and said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you, the Son cannot do anything of himself,

    but what he seeth the Father doing:

    IN THE ABOVE JESUS NEVER MEANT THAT HE CANNOT CREATE, HE SIMPLY MADE IT CLEAR THAT HE AND THE FATHER ARE INSEPARABLE, HE CANNOT DO ANYTHING ONLY OF HIMSELF!

    Gene, JESUS, AND THE FATHER ARE ONE! 

    THE FATHER WORKS, JESUS WORKS, AND VICE VERSA.

    THE FATHER CREATES, JESUS CREATES. AND VICE VERSA. Attention please and read:

    John 5:19….for what things soever he doth, these the Son also doth in like manner. 

    As clear as crystal Gene,

    JESUS CANNOT DO ANYTHING OF HIMSELF, ALL BY HIMSELF ONLY FOR SURE, BUT FOR SURE ALSO HE DOES ALL TOGETHER WITH THE FATHER AS

    JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE ALWAYS INSEPARABLE 

    ONE GOD!

    John5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things which himself doth: and greater works than these will he show him, that you may wonder. 21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and giveth life:

    so the Son also giveth life to whom he will.

    Gene, it seems more than clear to me that Jesus in the above, for sure HE DOES THINGS BY HIMSELF, EVEN

    RAISES THE DEAD AND GIVES LIFE TO WHOM HE WILL, EVEN TO HIMSELF, I’M AFRAID!

    22For neither doth the Father judge any man,

    but hath given all judgment to the Son.

    ANSWER Gene, DOES JESUS JUDGE BY HIMSELF? HERE IT COMES:

    23That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father. He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him.

    24Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life.

    ANOTHER TRUTH above Gene which you deny!

    UNLESS YOU HEAR JESUS’OWN WORD, SINGULAR,

    HIS SPIRIT WITHIN YOUR HEART, James 1:21 AND BELIEVE THAT JESUS, YOUR FIRST LOVE, WAS SENT BY THE FATHER, YOU WILL NOT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE! 

    BELIEVE IN GOD, ON EARTH ONLY,  IS NOT ENOUGH Gene,

    NO JESUS NO FATHER, NO FATHER NO JESUS! 

    25 Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself: 27And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is the Son of man. 28Wonder not at this; for the hour cometh, wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. 29And they that have done good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

    30I cannot of myself do anything.

    DEFINITELY, JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE INSEPARABLE, ATTENTION AND READ:

    As I hear, so I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will,

    but the will of him that sent me.

    AS JESUS’ WILL IS THE FATHER’S WILL AND VICE VERSA!

    YOU: Then You have ““cleverly” switched  subject matter from Jesus to God the Father….

    NO Gene, I NEVER SWITCHED ANYTHING AT ALL, AS ONCE WE DISCUSS JESUS WE ALSO DISCUSS THE FATHER! 

    John 14:7 If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him,

    and you have seen him.

    8Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me?

    Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also.

    How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? 

    NOW, SINCE YOU HAVE A CLEARER UNDERSTANDING OF THE OTHER SIDE OF

    JESUS’ OWN WORDS WHEN HE SAID:

    I CANNOT OF MYSELF DO ANYTHING!

    WHICH IS DEFINITELY NEVER A REFERENCE THAT JESUS NEVER CREATED ANYTHING!

    Answer please:

    COULD THE FATHER HIMSELF COME ON EARTH AS A HUMAN AND DO WHAT JESUS DID EVEN DIE?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

    #938883
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel….Are you able to just stay on one point at a time  instead of jumping all over the place confussing issues ? THE ANSWER to your statement that Jesus is just as great a God the Father is , is spoken by Jesus himself, (not me).  “my Father is greater then all”.    YOU TAKE that as Jesus saying ,  “my Father is greater then all except me” .  Nor do you believe Jesus  whenhe said (not me) , “the son of man can do nothing of himself” , 

    My question to you is, why don’t you “truly”  believe Jesus ,  trying to make Jesus equal to God the Father, is Idolatry,  didn’t God the Father say CLEARLY,  “YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME” , YES OR NO please. 

    SO  TURNING the Man Jesus into your GOD, and being  equal to him,   MAKES YOU WHAT?, A TRANSGRESSOR of the commandments of God the Father.,  Scripture says (not me)  ….   “Sin is the trangression of the law”.  

    Peace and love to you and yours Carmel………gene

     

    #938884
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi all

    IN THE BEGINNING….The Word WAS WITH (the)GOD AND WAS GOD….
    ….and without HIM was not any thing made that was made.
    HIM 👉ONE PERSON

    God bless

    #938885
    Berean
    Participant

    👇

    WHITOUT “THE WORD”(HIM: a person) WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE.

     

    #938887
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel….Are you able to just stay on one point at a time  instead of jumping all over the place confusing issues ?

    First and foremost, unless you answer my question, I mean REFERRING TO:

    COULD THE FATHER HIMSELF COME ON EARTH AS A HUMAN AND DO WHAT JESUS DID EVEN DIE?

    YES OR NO!

    I will never even comment on this issue.

    You: Carmel….Are you able to just stay on one point…..

    Me: Now my entire post was TOTALLY FOCUSSED  TO

    JUST ONE POINT!

    I mean that Jesus with his statement that HE CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, 

    HE NEVER MEANT THAT HE CANNOT CREATE ANYTHING BUT HE SIMPLY MEANT

    THAT HE COULD NEVER DO ANYTHING JUST ONLY OF HIMSELF AS HE AND HIS FATHER ARE INSEPARABLE, AND HE WAS NEVER AT ALL BY HIMSELF AT ANY TIME THROUGHOUT HIS ETERNAL EXISTENCE ONE SUBSTANCE AND DISTINCT OF THE FATHER, BOTH BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, John 17:5,  AND ALSO THROUGHOUT HIS TIME ON EARTH,  FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD,  Rev.13:8. AND ITS CREATION Hebrews 1:2 SINCE THE FATHER DID ALL THROUGH AND BY HIM.

    This is  well asserted by Jesus’ own words in

    John16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, and it is now come, that you shall be scattered every man to his own, and shall leave me alone;

    and yet I am not alone,

    because the Father is with me.

    Thus I REPEAT ALL MY POST IS FOCUSSED ENTIRELY ON THAT ONE POINT, and the ONLY moment Jesus was left ALL BY HIMSELF, in a way,  was precisely when He FULFILLED REDEMPTION FOR HUMANITY on the cross where JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, IN ORDER TO ENCOUNTER DIRECTLY SATAN FACE TO FACE FOR THE SAKE OF THE TRUTH, WAS GIVEN ALL THINGS/POWER INTO HIS OWN HAND BY THE FATHER, WELL CLEAR IN

    John13:3Knowing that the Father had given him all things into his hands, and that he came from God, and goeth to God; 

    THIS MEANS THAT DESPITE HIS FATHER LEAVING HIM, JESUS ALL BY HIMSELF, BUTCHERED ON THE CROSS, JUST BEFORE HIS DEATH,  WAS IN HIS MOST POWERFUL STATE EVER, “FOR POWER IS MADE PERFECT IN WEAKNESS” Corinthians 2:9” 

    IF YOU WANT TO KEEP ON DISCUSSING THIS PARTICULAR PERCEPTION OF

    “JESUS COULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF” ANSWER MY QUESTION PLEASE

    EITHER YES OR KNOW WITH RESPECT TO MY QUESTION!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

     

    #938896
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…….A  man who crys out , “my God , my God”,  hast thou forsaken me”  and then dies     is not a man with “any”  power.  In facr you completely miss the whole message of Jesus and his life, which was to show usxall his “FAITH’ and “TRUST” in GOD THE FATHER,  Lets face the truth Carmel,   you simply do not believe what Jesus says or said do you?,  He said (not me),   “the son of man can do “NOTHING” OF himself”.  You either believe him or not , thats the real question here , jumping all around with all kinds of devicieve opinions of yours is just another way of you saying,  you , “truly”,  do NOT BELIVE WHAT Jesus said, do you? 

    Jesus also said , “NOT MY WILL BE DONE,   BUT THY WILL BE DONE.” that clearly shows he was subservant to his God and our God  ,  his Father and our Father. You proberly don’t believe that either. Jesus whole life was “ALL” about his “FAITH” in God the Father, not faith in himself.  

    The Jesus you blind guides have created, is not the True Jesus of scripture,  the Jesus you preach is the one found in 2ths2.  “man”,  siting in the temple of God, “being desplayed as a God. ” Thats the Jesus you preach, and  Jesus with his “own mouth”,  will destory those false teachings and those who teach it,  at his return .  Just as scripture says he will.  Repent while you can Carmel

    Peace and love to you and your Carmel…………gene

     

     

    #938899
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU:Carmel…….A  man who crys out , “my God , my God”,  hast thou forsaken me”  and then dies     is not a man with “any”  power……

    ME:I have an answer for the above Gene, but

    ANSWER HEREUNDER FIRST ,

     COULD THE FATHER HIMSELF COME ON EARTH AS A HUMAN AND DO WHAT JESUS DID EVEN DIE?

    YES OR NO!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #938904
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel, …..THE ANSWER IS “NO”,  BECAUSE ALL CREATION WOULD HAVE DIED , IF HE DID THAT.

    Scripture tell us ……. that, God upholds all the creation by the power of his might, so how could he do that if he were to die?  You point is mute, unless you have something else in mind. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #938905
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Carmel, …..THE ANSWER IS “NO”,  BECAUSE ALL CREATION WOULD HAVE DIED, IF HE DID THAT.

    Me: Consequently the FATHER COULD NOT DO ANYTHING OF HIMSELF DIRECTLY not only regarding redemption but also regarding the entire creation since redemption would be for all, and also to reconcile all in Him for the Father.

    Gene, God required another EQUIVALENT DIVINE BEING IN EVERY SENSE  to BE A SERVANT and fulfill His task for Him. Well asserted hereunder in

    Philippians 2:For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 

    6Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

     7But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. 8He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. 9For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names: 10That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: 11And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

    John 5:18 Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father,

    MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.

    Any offense against the infinitely good, holy, and perfect God requires an infinite atonement, NO?

    Thus, in order to achieve that, God required a divine being OF HIMSELF, OF HIS OWN SUBSTANCE AD INTRA TO REPRESENT GOD, not a mere human AD EXTRA of cursed satanic earth,   and make the atonement. Well clear in

    Psalm 49: 7 No brother can redeem, nor shall man redeem: he shall not give to God his ransom,

    Only in that manner, it could be accomplished by GOD HIMSELF, and becoming one of us to redeem us.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #938907
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Carmel…….A  man who crys out , “my God , my God”,  hast thou forsaken me”  and then dies     is not a man with “any”  power

    Hebrews 2:14Therefore because the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner hath been partaker of the same:

    that, through death,

    he might destroy him who had the empire of death,

    that is to say, the devil

    Gene, Read the above  and ask yourself ONE WHO DESTROYED THE DEVIL SIMPLY BY DYING IS FOR YOU

    WITHOUT POWER?

    Gene, Jesus Himself said to Paul that POWER IS PERFECT THROUGH WEAKNESS!

    SO JESUS IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH GLORIFIED AND IN THE SAME INSTANT DESTROYED TOTALLY THE DEVIL FROM THE ENTIRE PHYSICAL CREATION. Well pinpointed out in

    John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #938912
    Jodi
    Participant

    Yes Carmel, you have one thing right, God is our savior!

    Where you are in error however though is with relevant biblical facts.

    Jesus’s God and Father who is our God and Father is our savior, He saved us according to His plan He established before the world was, even the man Jesus of Nazareth shedding his blood to pay for our sins was determined by our God and Father from the beginning.

    Jesus could do nothing of himself, it was by reason of our ONE TRUE GOD THE FATHER resting His Spirit in Jesus that we are saved. Jesus received the Spirit of YHVH and as Jesus himself quotes YHVH’s WORD of YHVH from Isaiah, the PURPOSE of receiving the Spirit was for him to then free captives, delivery people from darkness, to set us at liberty.

    All was accomplished by our ONE TRUE GOD THE FATHER through HIS POWERFUL SPIRIT, ALL DONE ACCORDING TO HIS WORD SPOKEN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS!

     

    #938914
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel………Jodi just gave you your answer,  let it be mine also.

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #938927
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel………Jodi just gave you your answer,

    let it be mine also.

    Me: Fine, from now on, Gene,

    OFFICIALLY, ALL MY POSTS TO YOU ARE ALSO DIRECTED TO Jodi! And vice versa!

    YOU AND Jodi are ONE!

    HERE IT COMES Jodi,

    You: Yes Carmel, you have one thing right,

    God is our savior!

    ME:  Wait, wait, Jodi, read again what I posted please:

    Only in that manner,

    it could be accomplished by GOD HIMSELF, and becoming one of us to redeem us.

    NOW LET’S SAY YOU DID READ MY POST, OF WHICH I REALLY DOUBT THAT YOU EVER DID READ IT, NEVERTHELESS,

    WITH RESPECT TO MY POST, SPECIFICALLY SPEAKING,

    IN/BY WHAT MANNER GOD THE FATHER ACCOMPLISHED BOTH CREATION AND REDEMPTION?

    I REPEAT BE SPECIFIC AND IN DETAIL PLEASE.

    YOU: Where you are in error however though is with relevant biblical facts.

    Me: The above Jodi is not sufficient, ONLY SCRIPTURE JUSTIFIES YOUR UNDERSTANDING, SO SIMPLY PICK ANY PART OF MY POST AND CONTRADICT ME USING SCRIPTURE PLEASE!

    IN THE MEANTIME MINE POST STANDS.

    You: Jesus’s God and Father who is our God and Father is our savior,

    Me: In the above, Jodi, with every respect, UNLESS YOU EXPLAIN HOW GOD IS OUR FATHER, YOU DON’T REALLY ASSERT THAT YOU KNOW WHAT THE TERM

    GOD AND FATHER MEAN IN RELATION TO HUMANITY IN FLESH AND BLOOD.

     

    You: He saved us according to His plan.

    ME: EXCELLENT!

    Yes according to His plan, WHAT PLAN PLEASE?

    Read again please WHAT I WROTE TO Gene, which disturbed your CARNAL MINDED UNDERSTANDING, with every respect,   and contradict me please using scripture.

    On the other hand, I will EXPLAIN WHAT GOD’S PLAN IS, ALWAYS  SUBJECT TO THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    BUT THAT IN THE NEXT POST!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #938931
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    .CARMEL……..Jesus said (not me)………“GOD IS A SPIRIT”  , so please tell us in what way God is different then Spirit ,  and while your at it tell us, how was God the Father ““IN” Jesus, if not by his SPIRIT?  

    JESUS SAID (not me)……“the Father who is “IN” me “HE”,  does the works”   , and again,  “the Son of man can do “NOTHING” of himself”.  and again,  God was “IN” Christ Jesus, reconcilling the world unto himself”.   

    Scripture says,  (not me)……“that God may be “IN” ALL, and “through” ALL”. 

    “ALL”  THINGS PERTANNING TO ETERNAL LIFE,  ARE ACHIEVED BY THE “spirit of the living God.  In us all,  IMO. 

    Trying to make Jesus equal to the Father , by saying God couldn’t do anything without Jesus, is smply not true, it’s God “alone ” who is doing all things “in” “his” , creation, “himself”.  Jesus said (not me)  “all things were  possible with God”,  question is do you “truly” believe him?  Trying to make it be the other way around is a false teaching,  because without God nothing could exist.  IMO. 

    Peace and love to you and yours Carmel……….gene

    #938932
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: Yes Carmel, you have one thing right,

    God is our savior!

    ME:  Wait, wait, Jodi, read again what I posted please:

    Only in that manner,

    IT COULD BE ACCOMPLISHED BY GOD HIMSELF, AND BECOMING ONE OF US TO REDEEM US.

    NOW LET’S SAY YOU DID READ MY POST, OF WHICH I REALLY DOUBT THAT YOU EVER DID READ IT, NEVERTHELESS,

    WITH RESPECT TO MY POST, SPECIFICALLY SPEAKING,

    IN/BY WHAT MANNER GOD THE FATHER ACCOMPLISHED BOTH CREATION AND REDEMPTION?

    I REPEAT BE SPECIFIC AND IN DETAIL PLEASE.

    YOU: Where you are in error however though is with relevant biblical facts.

    Me: The above Jodi is not sufficient, ONLY SCRIPTURE JUSTIFIES YOUR UNDERSTANDING, SO SIMPLY PICK ANY PART OF MY POST AND CONTRADICT ME USING SCRIPTURE PLEASE!

    IN THE MEANTIME MINE POST STANDS.

    You: Jesus’s God and Father who is our God and Father is our savior,

    Me: In the above, Jodi, with every respect, UNLESS YOU EXPLAIN HOW GOD IS OUR FATHER, YOU DON’T REALLY ASSERT THAT YOU KNOW WHAT THE TERM

    GOD AND FATHER MEANS IN RELATION TO HUMANITY IN FLESH AND BLOOD.

     

    You: He saved us according to His plan.

    ME: EXCELLENT!

    Yes according to His plan, WHAT PLAN PLEASE?

    Read again please WHAT I WROTE TO Gene, which disturbed your CARNAL MINDED UNDERSTANDING, with every respect,   and contradict me please using scripture.

    On the other hand, I will EXPLAIN WHAT GOD’S PLAN IS, ALWAYS  SUBJECT TO THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    BUT THAT IN THE NEXT POST!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

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