John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,461 through 23,480 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #938722
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    As I just posted yesterday in “The Word, Titus 1:2 and 1 John 1:1-2” thread,

    In Rev 19 we are given the word of God from OT prophecy that speaks to a future ruler and we are told there is a name written and we are told that name is called the word of God and then we are given more of the word of God of OT prophecy of this future ruler and then we are given the name that is WRITTEN, which is King of kings and Lord of lords.

    The NAME that IS WRITTEN is King of kings and Lord of lords and that name is called the word of God as it is the word of God spoken by the prophets.

    Don’t interpret verse 13 fully ignoring the surrounding text so it can then fit your doctrine.

    Jesus Christ’s name that is written is King of kings and Lord of lords and that name is itself the word of God, that is exactly what John is directly giving us in Rev 19, God’s word told by the prophets of an anointed man who would be a ruler, a King of kings and a Lord of lords over all the earth, such will take fulfillment when we see the Son of Man returning in our Father’s glory.

    #938723
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi all

    And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    [12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    [14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    [15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    [16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS 

    Me

    The names, titles, and qualifiers of the Son of God as you have noticed are numerous…

    Here in Revelation 19 we have some very appropriate ones that have been challenged by the devil because he wants to be worshiped as the God of this world.(thé devil)

    THE WORD OF GOD” IS SIMPLY ONE OF THESE NAMES ATTRIBUTED TO THE DIVINE SON OF GOD.

    This is supported in Hebrews 1:3:

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, AND UPHOLDING ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

    ….CHRIST UPHOLD ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER….

    John 1:,3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 

    BY WHAT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE ???

    BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER…. 

     

    his name is called The Word of God….

    Do you see the reason now?

    #938724
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

    It’s not Jesus Christ’s word, it is God’s word. It is not Jesus Christ’s power, it is God’s power. 

    Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 32 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power…36 And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.

    John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    Let’s keep reading in Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
    23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    Berean, it was by YHVH’s word spoken by the prophets, it was according to YHVH’s plan, that Jesus went to the cross. Jesus preached YHVH’s word concerning himself about him being lifted up on the cross and Jesus went to the cross obeying YHVH. Jesus did so through being anointed of the Spirit without measure, the Spirit of wisdom, understanding, council and might, knowledge and fear of YHVH that Jesus went to the cross. He obeyed as he had been called to righteousness for to be a light, to fulfill YHVH’s covenant.

    1. Jesus’s anointing was YHVH’s word made true.
    2. By that anointing of the Spirit Jesus spoke YHVH’s words, not his own and much of that word of YHVH that he spoke concerned himself and those words were promises that YHVH declared before the world even began, what this man Jesus would accomplish through YHVH’s Spirit dwelling in him.
    3. A man is returning in our Father’s glory whereby the Spirit living in him he is going to fulfill YHVH’s day destroying the wicked and giving eternal life to the righteous establishing a new and eternal earth. Nothing would have been made that was made by YHVH without this man and what he would accomplish through YHVH’s Spirit, all things were created by reason of and for Jesus Christ (anointed of the Spirit, anointed to judge the world in righteousness, not by his own eyes and ears, but through the Spirit of YHVH that lives in him).
    4. The name written is a King of kings and a Lord of lords which Jesus is such over the new earth according to YHVH’s word of prophecy and by His power that enables Him to make His word come true.

     

    #938839
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer and All……..So from that prespective, there are thousands of people named Gene right., are they also me, because after all we do have the same name right? No they are not , nor do they speak my words.

    But if I said the gene who posts on Heaven Net, then it would be you.

    Likewise, all things came through The Word that was WITH God.

    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.”

    And all things were created through Jesus the Son of God, Lord, and Christ.

    But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
    In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.

    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities.
    All things were created through Him and for Him

    yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

    And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    Looks like the same agent to me. If all things came through two sources, then the Word and Jesus the Son of God would be the two and you might have an argument here. But all things came through one agent, that is The Word of God, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the beginning of the creation of God. Same person. Further, the Word in the beginning was WITH God. So we see much corroborating evidence and proof.

    And in case you doubt this clear evidence and scriptural proof, then you have to contend with this huge support verse.

    And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    So he is back where he came from in the beginning which clearly shows that as he is at the right hand of God, so he was as the Word that was WITH God.

    Of course, I know you guys have an answer for all this, but they just look like excuses. It’s as if you guys don’t want to believe this and have manufactured the best excuses to get around it. But for those who do not have a bias here, we can see these excuses for what they are. We can also see that the scripture is clear on this subject.

    As usual we are free to believe or not. I choose to believe. God sent his best. His firstborn. He sent the one whom he made all things through, to also be the vessel for our salvation. It is God who created all things and God who saved us, but he did it through his Son.

    Jesus is the mystery that has been revealed in our time. Maybe it is time to get up to date with revelation?

    #938840
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Ask yourself this.

    Did God create all things through:

    1. The Logos, or
    2. Jesus, the son of God, the Lord, and the Christ.

    If both are true as it is written, then the no2 option (Jesus) would have to be CALLED ‘The Word of God’ and wouldn’t you know it, he is indeed called that name.

    His name is called THE WORD OF GOD. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.

    Maybe it is time to consider that we are talking about the mystery of God revealed in this time, that God sent the one that was with him from the beginning to be the one that would die for us to give us salvation. God spared no expense when he purchased us. Whereas, you guys would have us believe that God sent a manufactured Son for this purpose. No real cost with that option when you think about it. But God is not cheap. He doesn’t send us a fake or knockoff. He sent the real deal, the Son of the Living God, the firstborn of all creation.

    The scriptures are very clear about this. Are you guys suggesting that it’s just an unfortunate coincidence in scripture that this all fits and does so to even deceive the best of us, (those who study the scriptures). Of course not. Rather, it fits because it is the truth and this revelation is intentional and intended for those who have ears to hear.

    Jesus Christ the Lord is the Word of God.

    #938853
    Berean
    Participant

    Amen Proclaimer,

    I fully agree with what you wrote above.

    #938854
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……..Your trip word is the word “through” and “by”   It comes from the Greek word “dia”,  which carries a completely different sense  then the English words do, you see it as meaning thats how the world and everythibg was actually created by,  but the Greek word “Dia” carries a difference sense, it carries the idea,  of the “reason for” something being done.  Or the “cause”  or channel “through” which something is done.  

    Jesus plainly said he himself could do “nothing of himslf” , so how could he have ever created anything.  I could say more, but i don’t want to move off this subject yet, about the word “DIA”  in the greek, because that word is your and others trip point.  

    Found this on the internet,  ……What does “Dia”  mean in the bible?

    The answer given was this …….the ground or reason by which something is or is not done.  you see it is the ” REASON” for something is done.  It dosen’t mean that person done it as you and others falsely believe. ,  Jesus was the “reason” God alone created everything,  He was God’s intent when he first started the human crwation, even befor the world began, it was the very “reason” God created mankind in the first place. 

    Peace and love to you and your Proclaimer……….gene

     

     

     

    #938855
    Berean
    Participant

     

    John 1:3
    3
    panta di autou egeneto : All things were made by him

    👇

    kai cwriV autou egeneto oude en o gegonen
    and without him was not any thing made that was made. 

    WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE 

    Here👆 THERE IS NO DIA”

    HIM 👉 MAKE REFERENCE TO THE SON OF GOD

     

    #938856
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer……..Your trip word is the word “through” and “by” It comes from the Greek word “dia”, which carries a completely different sense then the English words do, you see it as meaning thats how the world and everythibg was actually created by, but the Greek word “Dia” carries a difference sense, it carries the idea, of the “reason for” something being done. Or the “cause” or channel “through” which something is done.

    If he is the reason, then fine. God created all things because of him. He was with God in the beginning, God created all things for him, and when his creation fell (man), he used Jesus to redeem creation back to God too. So he sent the one from the beginning into the world to take on flesh, he died for us, was resurrected, and is seated at the right hand of God, the position he had with God before the cosmos.

    because in Him were created all things in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and unto Him.

    So if all things were created because of him, then they are also for him.

    None of this negates him being with God before the cosmos. You guys keep adding in words like ‘memory’ etc. But the scriptures speak of him of being with God in the beginning and not as a memory of him to come or otherwise.

    Scripture even tells us that he is back in the glory he had with God before the cosmos. You have whittled that away to somehow mean that he was simply a memory in the beginning. But that is not what it actually says. Show me the word memory in such verses?

    When you add words to anything, you can maliciously change it to whatever you want.

    I think it is awesome that God sent his firstborn into our world to live as us in order to save us. This is the gospel.

    #938857
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Jesus plainly said he himself could do “nothing of himslf” , so how could he have ever created anything.

    ME: Gene You keep on repeating the same reasoning that JESUS COULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, But your carnal reasoning with every respect is so corrupted that you never see the other side of Jesus’ own words.

    Answer please:

    COULD THE FATHER HIMSELF COME ON EARTH AS A HUMAN AND DO WHAT JESUS DID EVEN DIE?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

     

    YOU: I could say more, but i don’t want to move off this subject yet, about the word “DIA”  in the greek, because that word is your and others trip point.  

    Found this on the internet,  ……What does “Dia”  mean in the bible?

    NO Gene I am going to use your own reasonings in order to make you aware of your misconception of Jesus’ truth

    THAT WILL BE IN THE NEXT POST!

    In the meantime prepare yourself and ponder on your own words, hereunder in the bold type

    The answer given was this …….the ground or reason by which something is or is not done.  

    you see it is the ” REASON” for something is done. 

    It dosen’t mean that person done it as you and others falsely believe. ,  Jesus was the “reason” God alone created everything,

      He was God’s intent when he first started the human crwation, even befor the world began,

    it was the very “reason” God created mankind in the first place.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #938859
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer, Carmel, Berean, and all, can we all agree that God had a “plan” in mind….. (a detaild purpose for doing something)  nothing he did or dose  is without a reason, and purpose,  Yes or No.  ?

    I am keeping this simple for now on purpose, can we all agree with the above, I am assuming you all will say,  yes , if not, please fill free to say and show why you don’t.

    I am not going to post further on this until i get an answere from you all, we have to start some where to show we agree on somethings in this descussion, so please answer .

    Peace and love to you all……..gene

    #938860
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……Yes i do keep repeating what Jesus said, (not me),  the question is do you “truly believe him,  and what he ‘actually’ says, Thats the question here Carmel. If you truly believed those words of his (not me),  then you would also understand he could not have “himself” Created anything , no more then you or i can. He was a real human being from his birth exactly as we are, he is the prototype of what God had and has for “ALL” his human creation. He is the example of God the Father’s  CROWNING  ACHIEVEMENT,  in “ALL”  humanity.  

    That is, to those who “truly believe” , what Jesus said, which obviously by,  your own words, you take offence to. 

    Peace and love to you and yours Carmel……….gene

    #938864
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To seening no body has come up with a different meaning i posted about the Greek  word “Dia” , i will assume you all agree with it, right? So with that understanding then , we know that God himself created everything that exists, for “the purpose of his plan for all humanity, the “Man” Jesus being the first human being, to achieve his planned goal, for all of his human creation. 

    “the first born to recieve eternal life, ” of “MANY BRETHERN”.  

    Can we also agree with this? , that the word “Dia” Itself , has nothing to do with reguards to a actual “past existence” of any live sentinel being himself doing anything, but God doing it with the view he had in mind for his whole human creation,  Jesus being the “first” to achieve his intended goal for all of us? 

    Jesus said (not me)…..“I am the “first”, and the “last”.  Yes he is the first, and the last will be exactly like him also , to enter into the Kingdom of God. He is the goal God the father has in mind for us all. IMO. 

    Peace and love to you all……….gene

     

     

    #938866
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You are wrong Gene, God created everything THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.
    IT IS HIS NATURAL HERITAGE TO HAVE ALL THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD THE FATHER: OMNIPOTENCE, OMNISCIENCE, OMNIPRESENCE.

    .…without him was not any thing made that was made….(John 1:3)

    all things were created BY HIM , and FOR HIM….(Colossians 1:16)

    AND TO CONCLUDE :

    👉And he is BEFORE all things, and BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST .

    HIM = JESUS CHRIST

    #938867
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

     👇

    COLOSSIANS 1
    16
    oti en autw ektisqh ta panta ta en toiV ouranoiV kai ta epi thV ghV ta orata kai ta aorata eite qronoi eite kuriothteV eite arcai eite exousiai ta panta di autou kai eiV auton ektistai 

    1:16 For👉 BY (EN) him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions,…

    HIM= JÉSUS-CHRIST 

    👉En    greek word

    1722

    a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between eiV – eis 1519 and 1537); “in,” at, (up-)on, by, etc.:–about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-)by (+ all means), for (… sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-)in(-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-)on, (open-)ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, (speedi-)ly, X that, X there(-in, -on), through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), under, when, where(-with), while, with(-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition

    #938868
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Dia” , i will assume you all agree with it, right?

    Not necessarily. I was just pointing I agree that God made all things for him or on his behalf. But it needs to be said that when you do that, that person usually exist.

    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Here we do indeed see that all was created for him. But it also says through him too. But you would have to say for him and for him making both words mean the same thing. And then this scripture doubles down with our view when it says ‘he is before all things”.

    Obviously you do not believe he is the Word of God like most Believers do.

    I feel like your mission is to destroy all that makes him special such as firstborn of all creation  beginning of the creation of God,  son of God, Word of God, and at the right hand of God where he was before the cosmos. I am not sure what exactly is motivating you regarding this.

    #938871
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer you said…….”Here we do indeed see that all was created for him. But it also says through him too. But you would have to say for him and for him making both words mean the same thing. And then this scripture doubles down with our view when it says ‘he is before all things”.

    Obviously you do not believe he is the Word of God like most Believers do.

    I feel like your mission is to destroy all that makes him special such as firstborn of all creation  beginning of the creation of God,  son of God, Word of God, and at the right hand of God where he was before the cosmos. I am not sure what exactly is motivating you regarding this.”

    Proclaimer…….The word “through” comes from the same exact  Greek word as “by”,  the word “dia”. Check it out,  ok. 

    Your right i do not believe as most “so-called” , believers do, thats a true statement. If i did i would be preaching a “false Jesus” as 90% of all Chrisendom does.   

    Satan plan from the beginning of his deception was and is to make Jesus appear different then the rest of humanity,  that is exactly why he created the doctrine of “the trinity”. , which turns,  Jesus from a human being into a GOD.  HE WANTS US TO “SEPERATE OURSELVES FROM , the “EXACT LIKENESS” of  Jesus, that is and was his overall purpose, in creating these false teachings about Jesus. 

    HE WANTS YOU TO WORSHIP JESUS AS YOUR GOD.  2THS2, explains it,  READ IT AND think about it,  ask yourself,  who is the “only” Human “man”,  to sit in the temple of God and is being desplayed and worshiped,  as a God?   Is it not the man Jesus Christ?  And that false “lmage” of Jesus , turns the man,  Jesus,   into a “MAN OF SIN”.  WHY.,  because God said , “you shall have “NO” GOD BESIDE ME”, and  It breakes that commandment?

    So if anyone makes and worships another God, they are a sinner, and is commiting “IDOLATERY”   And will never be accepted by God the Father or the man Jesus Christ either. 

    This present whole worlds Christan teachings,  is under the false teachings of Satan himself, and all those who go along with these false teaching about Jesus, are the servants of Satan, and will hear “depart from me you workers of iniquity,   I know you not whence you are”. 

    As far as the word goes,  Jesus plainly said (not me)…..“the words i am telling you are “NOT” my words, but are the “words” of him that sent me”.  Your choice is do you “truly” believe him. If so , then there should be no problem as to whose “words”  Jesus was speaking to us,  he himself as, being “the word”,  or him as telling us “God the Fathers words” ,  not his words. 

    I chose to believe what Jesus “himself said about the words he was telling us” , how about you? 

    Peace and love to you and your Proclaimer……….gene

     

     

     

    #938872
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    When are you going to BE HONEST WITH THE TRUTH?

    COLOSSIANS 1
    16
    oti en autw ektisqh ta panta ta en toiV ouranoiV kai ta epi thV ghV ta orata kai ta aorata eite qronoi eite kuriothteV eite arcai eite exousiai ta panta di autou kai eiV auton ektistai

    1:16 For👉 BY (en) HIM were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions,…
    HIM= JESUS ​​CHRIST 

    👉  En : Greek word


    1722

    a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between eiV – eis 1519 and 1537); “in,” at, (up-)on, by, etc.:–about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-)by (+ all means ), for (… sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-)in(-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-)on, (open-)ly, X outwardly , one, X quickly, X shortly, (speedi-)ly, X that, X there(-in, -on), through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), under, when, where( -with), while, with(-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition

    #938873
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel……Yes i do keep repeating what Jesus said, (not me),  the question is do you “truly believe him,  and what he ‘actually’ says, Thats the question here Carmel. If you truly believed those words of his (not me),  then you would also understand

    he could not have “himself” Created anything, 

    First and foremost I asked you a simple question and I want a simple

    YES OR KNOW PLEASE!

    SO HERE IT IS AGAIN:

    COULD THE FATHER HIMSELF COME ON EARTH AS A HUMAN AND DO WHAT JESUS DID EVEN DIE?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    You: he could not have “himself” Created anything,  

    Me: Just read again my question above and you will be able to be aware

    WHAT THE FATHER COULD DO ALL BY HIMSELF.

    NOW READ SCRIPTURE PLEASE:

    Hebrews 1:10And: Thou in the beginning, O Lord, didst found the earth: and the works of thy hands are the heavens.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #938875
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    1 John 1:1-2 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; for the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was WITH the Father, and was manifested unto us.

    Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    Jesus IS our Heavenly Father’s WORD that was from the beginning made true. The WORD that was WITH God, the WORD OF LIFE that was FROM THE BEGINNING, was made true in Jesus when he was resurrected from the dead. 

    2 Timothy 1: 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    Acts 2:Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it

    Our Heavenly Father’s WORD from the beginning was not only a promise of eternal life unto mankind but also His WORD before the world even began, was that of the first man who would receive that promise and that he would also be the man who makes it possible for all others to receive it. His glory is even greater, as when this Son of Man returns in our Father’s glory, he get’s to fulfill our Heavenly Father’s WORD that was from the beginning, giving eternal life to all those who believe. 

     

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